Community Wishlist Survey 2023/Editing/VisualEditor should use proper names for references
VisualEditor should use proper names for references
- Problem: There should be proper names for references possible in the VisualEditor
- Proposed solution: Currently the VE utilizes only nonsensical :0, :1 or such als names for bundled references, not proper (<ref name="Me">), the authors have no say in this regard and have to correct this later in the source code to proper, human names. If such a proper name there could be used from the beginning, with the implementation of such a bundled reference, this would be of great help for all those, who would like to work later with the text.
- Who would benefit: All authors, that work on articles, especially those, who use the wikitext editor
- More comments:
- Phabricator tickets: task T52568, task T92432, task T245199
- Proposer: Grüße vom Sänger ♫(Reden) 10:25, 24 January 2023 (UTC)
Discussion
- Support: Yeah the :0, :1... ref names assigned by the VE aren't exactly great. There should be an option in the VE to name them. Findingmoney100 (talk) 16:54, 24 January 2023 (UTC)
- @Sänger: This was actually investigated in 2019 as part of Community Wishlist Survey 2019/Citations/VisualEditor: Allow references to be named. Unfortunately, it was determined that allowing a manual name to be provided for a reference was too complicated to implement, on top of concerns with usability, especially among new users. Imagine, as a new user, all you have to do is enter a URL into Citoid and you get a reference. It would be an odd thing to ask them to also provide a "name", even though this name isn't visible anywhere to VE users or readers. Regardless, we did determine that creating automatic names based on citation data (such as the domain or author name) is feasible.
Does this counter-proposal sound okay to you? You can learn more by reading our status update on that project. We hope that even though you won't be able to manually provide arbitrary names, that having automatic names like "example.org-0", "example.org-1", etc., is still better than ":0" and ":1". Let us know what you think, and thanks for participating in the survey. MusikAnimal (WMF) (talk) 18:10, 25 January 2023 (UTC)
- Anything is better then the stupid ":0" and ":1", whoever came up with this non-solution was obviously not a Wikipedia content contributor, but someone restricted to technicalities.
There is something mentioned about 2021, what happened that year? Grüße vom Sänger ♫(Reden) 22:26, 25 January 2023 (UTC) - In 2022 we had a similar wish which made it into the top 30: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Community_Wishlist_Survey_2022/Editing/VisualEditor_should_use_human-like_names_for_references KSiebert (WMF) (talk) 14:32, 26 January 2023 (UTC)
- It was quite top of the list, but as absolutely nothing has happened in this regard, be prepared to get such wishes every year, until the lots of devs employed by the WMF, i.e. us, will finally fix this bug.
- As a side note: Why is here an answer button (in the old nice layout with brackets and without screaming), but using it results in en error? Either it works, or it should be turned off. Grüße vom Sänger ♫(Reden) 16:38, 26 January 2023 (UTC)
- Agree with MusicAnimal that it would be better to continue automatic naming, but then in a more sensible way (author-last name + year, with fallback on editor/publisher/newpaper and no year). Can this wish be reworded? Or better to start a new wish? Femke (talk) 20:47, 26 January 2023 (UTC)
- Imho this would be a solution for my wish. Whether you chose one yourself, of some software generates some better name automagically is secondary, we just need to get rid of those colons and numbers, they are a bug, not a feature.
- So I don't know why I should change anything or write something new, as this is already an accepted solution. OK, really choosing the names would be even better, as authors are far better in such stuff then bots, but better 70% then stuck to the complete nonsense. Grüße vom Sänger ♫(Reden) 05:12, 27 January 2023 (UTC)
- @Sänger: if we/you rename it to last year's wish, it'll be clearer for votes imo. Femke (talk) 17:27, 30 January 2023 (UTC)
- You mean this one? I think, I forgot an interim i my last answer, as that's not far enough for my wish, it'll be just an interim solution, far better then the extremely annoying non-solution now at work, but not my wish. Grüße vom Sänger ♫(Reden) 17:44, 30 January 2023 (UTC)
- @Sänger We've got just one day to figure this out. Above you said the automatic (and sensible) names would satisfy your wish, but you're saying VisualEditor should use human-like names for references from last year, which proposes the same thing, doesn't go far enough for you. I think we simply re-title your wish as suggested, or even use the same proposal from last year, then we're good to go. Is that alright? It's even better if you're okay using the wish from last year, as I can copy over the translations as well. Let me know what you'd like to do and I can do all the editing for you :) Thanks! MusikAnimal (WMF) (talk) 21:42, 8 February 2023 (UTC)
- As I've said: that would be a fine interim solution, but not my wish. It should be possible for the user to define a name, users are better in doing this, if they know, what they are doing. VE is fime for n00bs, that would do something wrong possibly, but giving the users a possibility to correct it is the far better solution.
- Last years wish still stands, it was not worked on, so it's still a valid wish the devs at WMF should work on (and no, this is not just for the small amount of Comminty Tech devs, this is the community wishlist, all the devs of the WMF should work on this). Grüße vom Sänger ♫(Reden) 21:55, 8 February 2023 (UTC)
- I agree, and having talked with the Editing team it seems being able to add a custom reference name is doable, it just doesn't make much sense for a VisualEditor user, as they won't know what a "reference name" means because they don't see the wikitext. It adds another step to adding citations, something that we know is critical and should be easy for new users.
- I'm going go with just re-titling to "VisualEditor should use human-like names for references" and leave the rest of your proposal as-is. Hope this okay, and thanks for participating in the survey! MusikAnimal (WMF) (talk) 22:02, 8 February 2023 (UTC)
- @Sänger We've got just one day to figure this out. Above you said the automatic (and sensible) names would satisfy your wish, but you're saying VisualEditor should use human-like names for references from last year, which proposes the same thing, doesn't go far enough for you. I think we simply re-title your wish as suggested, or even use the same proposal from last year, then we're good to go. Is that alright? It's even better if you're okay using the wish from last year, as I can copy over the translations as well. Let me know what you'd like to do and I can do all the editing for you :) Thanks! MusikAnimal (WMF) (talk) 21:42, 8 February 2023 (UTC)
- You mean this one? I think, I forgot an interim i my last answer, as that's not far enough for my wish, it'll be just an interim solution, far better then the extremely annoying non-solution now at work, but not my wish. Grüße vom Sänger ♫(Reden) 17:44, 30 January 2023 (UTC)
- @Sänger: if we/you rename it to last year's wish, it'll be clearer for votes imo. Femke (talk) 17:27, 30 January 2023 (UTC)
- Agree with MusicAnimal that it would be better to continue automatic naming, but then in a more sensible way (author-last name + year, with fallback on editor/publisher/newpaper and no year). Can this wish be reworded? Or better to start a new wish? Femke (talk) 20:47, 26 January 2023 (UTC)
- Imagine, as a new user, all you have to do is enter a URL into Citoid and you get a reference. It would be an odd thing to ask them to also provide a "name", even though this name isn't visible anywhere to VE users or readers. What about asking for the name only when copying (re-using) the reference? --Matěj Suchánek (talk) 08:43, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
- Anything is better then the stupid ":0" and ":1", whoever came up with this non-solution was obviously not a Wikipedia content contributor, but someone restricted to technicalities.
- No, every other citation software will auto-generate something like
Sänger-2023
with no problem. I asked for the same in Community Wishlist Survey 2023/Editing/Clean up Visual Editor wikitext output. Regards Matthias (talk) 20:08, 25 January 2023 (UTC)
- They still haven't fixed this...? --JackFromWisconsin (talk) 15:20, 27 January 2023 (UTC)
- Absolutely. Even when pasting ie. "Smith01", a bug happens, and on the next instances it is pasted as "Smith02". #fatalFlaw.--A09 (talk) 22:26, 1 February 2023 (UTC)
What the heck are human-like names btw? I asked for proper names, why did you change it? Grüße vom Sänger ♫(Reden) 23:41, 8 February 2023 (UTC)
- @Sänger Wait one moment, I will fix this. MusikAnimal (WMF) (talk) 23:51, 8 February 2023 (UTC)
- @Sänger Okay, please don't move the page as that won't work as expected now that I approved the proposal. I can take care of renaming for you. Is "human-readable" okay? "Proper" sounds a bit ambiguous, but as long as we're not implying custom names as we were initially, it doesn't matter. MusikAnimal (WMF) (talk) 23:54, 8 February 2023 (UTC)
- As for why "human-like", I just went with what was used last year. "Human-readable" is better but I think voters know what is meant by "human-like" (as in names that humans would create, not :0, :1, etc. that machines make). MusikAnimal (WMF) (talk) 23:55, 8 February 2023 (UTC)
- No, proper is completely fine, no need to change it whatsoever. Grüße vom Sänger ♫(Reden) 23:56, 8 February 2023 (UTC)
- Okay :) It may take a few minutes to change this, so hang tight (the translation subpages and what not all need to be moved, too) MusikAnimal (WMF) (talk) 23:59, 8 February 2023 (UTC)
- The translations I did are already with the proper title, not the machine-readable stuff you invented. Grüße vom Sänger ♫(Reden) 00:01, 9 February 2023 (UTC)
- I don't know what you mean by machine-readable stuff that I invented, but anyway the move is now complete :) Thanks again, MusikAnimal (WMF) (talk) 00:09, 9 February 2023 (UTC)
- Human-like is Ingrid, John, Laila, or such, at least for me as a human. Perhaps machines interpret something else in it, at least they can manage those completely nonsensical :1 etc, that someone obviously without any knowledge of Wikipedia editing invented. Grüße vom Sänger ♫(Reden) 00:15, 9 February 2023 (UTC)
- I don't know what you mean by machine-readable stuff that I invented, but anyway the move is now complete :) Thanks again, MusikAnimal (WMF) (talk) 00:09, 9 February 2023 (UTC)
- The translations I did are already with the proper title, not the machine-readable stuff you invented. Grüße vom Sänger ♫(Reden) 00:01, 9 February 2023 (UTC)
- Okay :) It may take a few minutes to change this, so hang tight (the translation subpages and what not all need to be moved, too) MusikAnimal (WMF) (talk) 23:59, 8 February 2023 (UTC)
This has been a perennial Community Wishlist item since at least 2017, possibly earlier. As I understand it, WMF is already committed to solving this; see task T92432 as well as other tickets. For many other related links, see w:WP:VENAMEDREFS. Mathglot (talk) 22:28, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
- I should add here that user script RefRenamer by User:Nardog fixes these *after the fact*, converting all VE numeric-name references to Lastname-YYYY where feasible, and to other reasonable choices where necessary. Mathglot (talk) 22:40, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
- Is committed to solving this seems to be a wee bit exaggerated. Since 2017 they managed to invest millions in useless and completely unwanted projects like rebranding or FLOW, while this heavy bug is still not fixed. Grüße vom Sänger ♫(Reden) 23:45, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
- FLOW has definitely not been invested to after 2017, but yeah, it's just a straw man. --Matěj Suchánek (talk) 08:40, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
- It's not s straw man, it's one of many examples, where the ivory tower burned lots of money against the communities while don't gibe any thought about real wishes. Grüße vom Sänger ♫(Reden) 12:38, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
- FLOW has definitely not been invested to after 2017, but yeah, it's just a straw man. --Matěj Suchánek (talk) 08:40, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
Voting
- Support Author-date type of references would be much easier. Femke (talk) 18:54, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support. DatGuy (talk) 19:12, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support Nardog (talk) 19:15, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
- Strong support. — Jules* talk 19:24, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support Author–date, author–title, title–date... any reasonable combination of parameters that yields a unique reference name. Folly Mox (talk) 19:45, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support Xbypass (talk) 19:55, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support — DaxServer (t · m · c) 20:23, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support HouseBlaster (talk) 20:24, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support TheAmerikaner (talk) 20:27, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support Tol (talk | contribs) @ 20:37, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support Ololuki (talk) 20:38, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support SeGiba (talk) 21:01, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support Tom Ja (talk) 21:15, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support Ah, so that is where all those nonsensical :0 refs come from! Certes (talk) 21:16, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support Significa liberdade (talk) 21:51, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support Goombiis (talk) 21:56, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support PureTuber (talk) 21:59, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support, of course, like I have every year this has been raised. This is nothing new; see my discussion comment above. Mathglot (talk) 22:33, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support Pamputt (talk) 22:34, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support Geert Van Pamel (WMBE) (talk) 22:34, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support Literally just implement it so that the parts of VisualEditor codebase can be cleaned up. Worked with it myself and it's an utter nightmare. Lectrician1 (talk) 22:42, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support SHB2000 (talk | contribs) 22:56, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support BluePenguin18 🐧 ( 💬 ) 23:41, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support -BRAINULATOR9 (TALK) 23:53, 10 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support Poslovitch (talk) 00:31, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support Skimel (talk) 00:50, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support --NGC 54 (talk|contribs) 01:08, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support Yeeno (talk) 01:54, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support Tgr (talk) 03:20, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support * Pppery * it has begun 03:48, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support Spencer (talk) 04:50, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support EpicPupper (talk) 05:16, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 05:39, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support StarryGrandma (talk) 05:52, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support Soumendrak (talk) 06:20, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support Janhrach (talk) 07:15, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support --Jurbop (talk) 07:38, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support Afernand74 (talk) 08:01, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support Kekavigi (talk) 08:20, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support V0lkanic (talk) 08:37, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support Grabado (talk) 09:12, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support Jeeputer (talk) 09:17, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support —Bruce1eetalk 09:25, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support Exilexi (talk) 09:25, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support HHill (talk) 09:31, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support //Lollipoplollipoplollipop::talk 10:02, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support Simeon (talk) 11:59, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support Lion-hearted85 (talk) 12:38, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support Very useful MoreInput (talk) 12:55, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support Guerillero Parlez Moi 13:40, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support OwenBlacker (Talk) 14:42, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support Bluerasberry (talk) 14:56, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support CROIX (talk) 15:16, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support Nehaoua (talk) 16:11, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support There is an extreme need for this proposal for MANY years. Thingofme (talk) 16:21, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support Will make editing these easier afterwards. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 21:12, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support Thomas Kinz (talk) 22:13, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support Toadspike (talk) 22:39, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support --Furfur ⁂ Discussion 23:42, 11 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support Ahkei (talk) 01:28, 12 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support Chlod (say hi!) 03:15, 12 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support Betseg (talk) 04:04, 12 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support Ninepointturn (talk) 04:18, 12 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support HLFan (talk) 07:28, 12 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support 沁水湾 (talk) 11:46, 12 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support MASUM THE GREAT (talk) 17:40, 12 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support Should have been done ages ago. Any short algorithmic name derived from the title would be fine MichaelMaggs (talk) 19:29, 12 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support Bencemac (talk) 20:14, 12 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support Funcrunch (talk) 00:03, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support Better automatic refnames should have been there at launch, manually editable refnames a nice addition on top of that. CMD (talk) 03:02, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support Izno (talk) 07:26, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support BRP ever 10:10, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support Titore (talk) 14:16, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support --Abubiju (talk) 16:13, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support Crazy1880 (talk) 18:34, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 20:49, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support Rdrozd (talk) 23:54, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support Wargo (talk) 00:00, 14 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support बडा काजी (talk) 00:52, 14 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support ZandDev (talk) 13:19, 14 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support Barkeep49 (talk) 21:32, 14 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support Labdajiwa (talk) 00:10, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support TimTheDragonRider (talk) 08:29, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support cyrfaw (talk) 12:19, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support ~Cybularny Speak? 14:05, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support Matma Rex (talk) 22:03, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support Sadads (talk) 01:11, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support In fact, I think this should be implemented as soon as possible. Epicgenius (talk) 02:56, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support Aishik Rehman (talk) 07:26, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support β16 - (talk) 15:50, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support Hell yes, expunge the abomination. Well overdue. · · · Peter (Southwood) (talk): 16:44, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support Treetear (talk) 20:14, 16 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support ಮಲ್ನಾಡಾಚ್ ಕೊಂಕ್ಣೊ (talk) 07:27, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support Gubeko (talk) 10:09, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support David Eppstein (talk) 21:53, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support This would make things a lot more human-readable Rconroy (talk) 22:27, 17 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support Kiwiz1338 (talk) 00:42, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support Lightoil (talk) 03:04, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support Kuba Walczak (talk) 08:44, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support Thastp (talk) 10:43, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support Wire723 (talk) 11:15, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support Vulcan❯❯❯Sphere! 15:28, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support Should be #1 priority DFlhb (talk) 15:52, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support Albinfo (talk) 21:14, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support Kess (talk) 05:39, 19 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support Wturrell (talk) 09:25, 19 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support Lupe (talk) 15:09, 19 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support Omnilaika02 (talk) 15:16, 19 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support schurdl (talk) 15:47, 19 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support Ezlev (talk) 18:53, 19 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support Hans5958 (talk) 03:00, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support Matěj Suchánek (talk) 08:36, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support — Draceane talkcontrib. 11:13, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support Eli0030 (talk) 14:30, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support Yes, for the umpteenth time. VE ref "names" consisting of ":n" are an abomination. PamD (talk) 15:20, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support --He3nry (talk) 18:10, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support NaBUru38 (talk) 18:53, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support --Naḥum (talk) 08:31, 21 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support – with automatic name generation --Gardini (talk) 09:00, 21 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support --Lamiot (talk) 11:15, 21 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support Ja, diese Zahlen stören doch sehr die Übersicht. --CHF (talk) 20:42, 21 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support Chatul (talk) 12:53, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support مرتضا (talk) 15:02, 22 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support Mikus (talk) 00:46, 23 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support Althair (talk) 03:58, 23 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support --SalmanZ (talk) 14:02, 23 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support. —— Eric Liu(Talk) 01:34, 24 February 2023 (UTC)
- Support ~~~~
User:1234qwer1234qwer4 (talk) 17:46, 24 February 2023 (UTC)