Talk:Community Wishlist Survey 2021/Real Time Preview for Wikitext

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Project Update: Initial Design FeedbackEdit

Pings to the voters

@Czar, Pelagic, Ubzerver, and TheDJ:

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@Temp3600, Kocgs, Golmore, VKG1985, Sänger, Patsagorn Y., Nux, Tratser, 郑洲扬, Mike Krüger, Malvinero10, Tyseria, Cgl02, Khairul hazim, EEMIV, Thibaut120094, Nadzik, SuperHamster, and Baidax:

Hey all, thanks for your comments on the #4 Wish of the 2021 Community Wishlist Survey! The Community Tech has started work on this wish. We wanted to make you aware of this because we'd love to hear your input. Thanks for being such proactive members of the wishlist. NRodriguez (WMF) (talk) 22:37, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

Link to the #4 Wish content: Real Time Preview for Wikitext. --BoldLuis (talk) 09:54, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
Just to make sure: does this only apply to the older (2010) wikitext editor, or will this also be added to the 2017 one? Remagoxer (talk) 20:49, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
Hello there and thanks for your question! This applies to the (2010) Wikitext editor but does not apply to the 2017 Visual Editor wikitext mode. That editor allows users to switch views to a preview of the output within the same step, so we excluded it from our scope since it solutions for it in a different way. We cleaned up the language in our project page to make this clear. NRodriguez (WMF) (talk) 18:22, 2 September 2021 (UTC)
@NRodriguez (WMF): Will this be working for Monobook, too?--- Darwin Ahoy! 20:59, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
Yes indeed! It will be working for Monobook. Thanks for your question. NRodriguez (WMF) (talk) 18:22, 2 September 2021 (UTC)
Looking forward to this. I've really been enjoying the live preview in the new DiscussionTools beta feature. That said, the carat icon is completely unintuitive. It should be accompanied by a text label that says something like "preview" (or "preview pane", to use the Windows terminology). Also,any plans to make the preview pane resizable? I could see cases where I'd want to quickly drag the divider to view either the source or the preview wider. Ahecht (TALK
) 21:29, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
I as well like the instant preview, that I enjoy just now. I can instantly see, whether I link correct and so forth. Perhaps it should be restricted to editing a single section, in huge articles it will be probably be quite difficult a) to see the change, if it's far off the screen and b) to render this big page on the fly. Grüße vom Sänger ♫(Reden) 04:14, 1 September 2021 (UTC)
@Sänger we are investigating how complex it will be to load large pages, it is something the engineers are actively thinking about and figuring out how to optimize. Thanks for flagging the concern about limiting to a single section as it helps us think of ideas of how to solve the performance issues.
@Ahecht @Sabas88 thanks for these notes! It's really helpful to hear feedback on our proposed designs in the talk page. We are working on testing new button placements so that it is more explicit what the button does. We are thinking of placing it in the toolbar with the word "Preview" explicitly written out, and an option to let folks pick vertical OR horizontal if they are on a desktop that is wide neough. We will ping you when we post the new designs. We also plan on testing them with users to make sure they're intuitive
As for whether or not the pane can be resizeable, we are investigating how technically complex it would be to allow this. We'll keep you updated, for now it is not in scope since we've run into difficulty of a similar attempt at doing this for the Wikisource proofread page in the past.
Thanks and keep the feedback coming! NRodriguez (WMF) (talk) 18:32, 2 September 2021 (UTC)
@NRodriguez (WMF): Hi, will it be usable for all languages?--Cgl02 (talk) 05:26, 1 September 2021 (UTC)
Correct, this feature would be available for any project to leverage so long as contributors are using a non-VE version of a wikitext editor. Thanks for your question! NRodriguez (WMF) (talk) 18:24, 2 September 2021 (UTC)
What about putting the "activation button" in the wikiEditor-ui-toolbar, perhaps all on the right? The decision on where to put the preview (left or bottom) is automatically taken considering the aspect ratio of the display. --Sabas88 (talk) 07:58, 1 September 2021 (UTC)
I generally agree with all of the above. Using the extant menu system makes the best sense, and while half or more users are using mobile devices some of the time, most focused editing is done on desktops and laptops, and ultrawide monitors are much more affordable today (and desirable with virtually universal gaming support now) than they were even two years ago. Layout flexibility is a Good Thing.  — SMcCandlish ¢ >ʌⱷ҅ʌ<  08:46, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

Changing the text. Imagine I change an article and I see how it is like in real time. Later, I make new changes. How to see how this changes (i.e. add some words to the text or links) in real time?. Do I have to press the Preview Changes button?. Can I see it in real time, without pressing a button??- BoldLuis (talk) 10:05, 8 September 2021 (UTC)
"In real time" means, you'll see asap, as you type, what's that is doing in the text. Same as now with this new discussion tool, where I can see beneath it, how the text will look like, and whether this is a red link or that a blue one. Grüße vom Sänger ♫(Reden) 11:30, 8 September 2021 (UTC)

September 14: Second Round of Design FeedbackEdit

@SMcCandlish @Sabas88 @DarwIn @Sänger @Achect Hello all! We have posted some new designs and questions as a Status Update to add the button to the toolbar and make it more intuitive as you pointed out. We'd love to hear your input, and thanks so much for your continued feedback!. NRodriguez (WMF) (talk) 18:23, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

I like it this new design! --Sabas88 (talk) 10:22, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
Sorry for delay. To answer the posed questions:
"Does the new button placement seem more intuitive to the workflows in the toolbar?" Yes, though it should be called "Live preview" or something, so it's not confused with "Show preview" at the bottom.
"Does the current proposed layout feel like there is enough space to view both the wikitext and the output?" The version that inlines the preview into the editing window ... kind of have to say no. However, it might be convenient enough for spot-checking things. I vastly prefer the "fly-out" options. Regarding those, I think both views should be available when viewing the desktop version of the site. Just have both a right-arrow and down-arrow button. I would absolutely prefer the horizontal fly-out when I'm on my Windows PC with its ultra-wide monitor, but would use the vertical "fly-down" when on my Mac, or if using a tablet or other mobile device (and not using the mobile version of the site – I assume this entire feature set won't be available in the mobile version).  — SMcCandlish ¢ >ʌⱷ҅ʌ<  19:25, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

Talk to Us Hours: Video call with Community Tech happening tomorrowEdit

@SMcCandlish @Sabas88 @DarwIn @Sänger @BoldLuis @Remagoxer @Ahecht We will be hosting a video call tomorrow where all are welcome to come and give feedback on our latest designs in real time. We'd love to have you all attend if you have a chance to come by! Thanks for giving feedback in this talk page, check out the agenda for tomorrow here Community Wishlist Survey/Updates/Talk to Us NRodriguez (WMF) (talk) 18:19, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

Dunno whether I could make it or not, depends on my workload tomorrow. Is it better for me to say yes first and not show up, or could I join spontaneously if I could? Grüße vom Sänger ♫(Reden) 18:35, 26 October 2021 (UTC)
I think I can make this.  — SMcCandlish ¢ >ʌⱷ҅ʌ<  19:29, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

Data InvestigationsEdit

Hi! Thanks for your work on this. I'm interested in the questions asked in the project's Data Investigations section—assuming they're about existing practice, did the team find sharable answers to those? (Also, as a heads up, it doesn't look like I received the ping from last August in my Meta notifications so others might not know about this page either.) czar 19:15, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

Opt-out beta feature?Edit

@SGrabarczuk (WMF): According to User:SGrabarczuk (WMF)/sandbox/4, this feature will be an opt-out beta feature on partner wikis. Please don’t do that. Beta features are by nature opt-in; if the feature is mature enough to be opt-in, the beta phase is already over. Either provide no opt-out other than the toolbar button, or provide it on Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-editing, similarly to VisualEditor, which is an opt-in beta feature available on the beta features panel on some wikis (including Meta), and it’s an opt-out feature available on the Editing panel on most other wikis. —Tacsipacsi (talk) 02:29, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

🤔 That's an interesting point. I'll talk to the team and see if we change anything.
Basically, we're asking several wikis to agree to have this feature as default, and if it proves successful, we'll make it default on all wikis. This is this "pilot wikis" model we have in the case of Desktop Improvements as well. SGrabarczuk (WMF) (talk) 13:27, 22 March 2022 (UTC)
I’m not against it on an organizational level, only on a very technical level. I like the idea of “pilot wikis” or “partner wikis” (the latter term is used by the Editing team), I would just like pilot wikis not to offer this feature in the Beta features section of preferences. Maybe the Talk pages project/DiscussionTools extension is a better example, as it’s actively tested on partner wikis and not just seemingly stuck in the beta phase on some wikis. DiscussionTools with all its at least beta-level parts is available as a beta feature on all wikis, and not yet production-level parts are available only on selected wikis—but not as a default-on beta feature, instead one can opt out of them on the Editing section of preferences. (And I’ll try to translate the rest of the message as my time allows, even if this question is not yet resolved.)Tacsipacsi (talk) 20:59, 22 March 2022 (UTC)
Sorry for the late reply. We discussed this and we're only planning to make this an opt-out beta feature on Polish Wikipedia, which the community has agreed to. Once available to other wikis, it will be an opt-in, and we don't plan on keeping Realtime Preview as a beta feature but for ~6 months at most, hopefully less, barring any problems. Thanks for raising this concern. MusikAnimal (WMF) (talk) 20:12, 18 April 2022 (UTC)
If it’s only one wiki, then the gadget solution I proposed in gerrit:781096 is even more plausible. For example, you could add
* realtimePreview[ResourceLoader|default|dependencies=ext.wikiEditor.realtimepreview]|realtimePreview.js
to pl:MediaWiki:Gadgets-definition (realtimePreview.js needs to be there in order for the gadget to be loaded, but it may be a red link). —Tacsipacsi (talk) 18:40, 19 April 2022 (UTC)

Unfinished sentenceEdit

  • User screen sizes- This data could be helpful to understand how useful the

@NRodriguez (WMF): Please finish this sentence (added by you), it’s incomprehensible without its second half. Thanks in advance! —Tacsipacsi (talk) 23:41, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

Feedback for realtime previewEdit

Hello everyone, thank you all so much for helping us improve the Wikimedia platforms with the realtime preview feature.

We are always thrilled to co-create with you all and in this spirit, we would love to schedule a 25min call with some of you to get your feedback on the new feature we released on Polish Wikipedia.

How to participate:

You can use this link to schedule a 25min call with our team:

Schedule a call with us

The call will be attended by 1 to 3 members of our team (Product Management, Design, and Community Relations) and we will share a short testing script for you to try out a new feature we have recently released.

We would be extra appreciative if you came to our call with an article in mind you would want to edit since we will be observing your editing process, if you don’t have an article in mind do not worry, we have prepared one for you as well.

If you can't find a time that works for you on the scheduling link above, please reach out directly to us to schedule the call - thank you!

Privacy policy:

This usability test will ask you to share your screen on a Google Meet link while performing some edits on Wikipedia. This test does NOT require you to have your video active during the call as we will only need the screen sharing and audio from our conversation to get your feedback. We strive to respect your privacy and will do so by deleting the recordings after processing them.

We look forward to speaking with you!

Thank you so much,

Community Tech team

NAyoub (WMF) (talk) 20:06, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

Gadget issuesEdit

@CommTechUser:NRodriguez (WMF)User:KSiebert (WMF)User:DMaza (WMF)User:MusikAnimal (WMF)User:SWilson (WMF)User:HMonroy (WMF)User:DWalden (WMF)User:SGrabarczuk (WMF)User:NAyoub (WMF)User:JMcLeod (WMF)User:TheresNoTime-WMF: There have been a few issues mounting up that seem to all be about the gadget loading on plwiki: phab:T307039, phab:T308176, and phab:T309330. I'd been thinking that, because the gadget is a short-term thing, these could be ignored till the gadget is removed. But that might be ages, so I've made a patch to hopefully sort it out. SWilson (WMF) (talk) 09:36, 9 June 2022 (UTC)

@SWilson (WMF): I see that now a class governs whether the textbox is resizable natively or with real-time preview’s JS-based solution. Would it be possible to defer the addition of the class until the real-time preview is actually opened? Until then, there’s no need to disable the native behavior, and native is probably a bit faster and less error-prone. Since after the beta period, it probably won’t be possible to disable the real-time preview without disabling the whole toolbar, it’s important that it has as little impact as possible until the user interacts with it. —Tacsipacsi (talk) 19:16, 12 June 2022 (UTC)
@Tacsipacsi: That's a good point. At the moment the Realtime Preview module loads with the CSS that sets resize:none on the textarea, so it's already delaying that almost as long as possible. It is possible to shift it a bit later, but I'm not sure it'll make a huge difference. Are you seeing the native drag triangle appear long enough to interact with it?
Oh, although you're saying to not apply it till after the preview pane is opened? (Sorry, I misread.) At the moment, the new resize bar is active even when the preview pane is closed. It gives a better UX, because the native resize handle indicates up-down and side-to-side resizability, which is incorrect. Having the new one apply early also means that it doesn't have to change when the preview pane does open. SWilson (WMF) (talk) 03:53, 13 June 2022 (UTC)
@SWilson (WMF): Yes, I mean not to apply it until the preview pane is opened. For the UX, I don’t think it’s our task to fix browsers’ UIs; if you’re dissatisfied with them, feel free to open bug reports in their bug tracking systems. (By the way, the cursor itself does vary based on the resize direction both in Firefox and Chromium, making the user’s choices clear just before they start to drag. On the other hand, your custom resize UI differs from what users are used to, and thus requires a new learning curve.) For the change: yes, it changes when, and in case, the pane opens. I suspect most users won’t use this feature (which doesn’t mean it’s useless, of course); for them, deferring applying the styles would mean that there’s no change at all, compared to the current situation, when there is (flash of unstyled content). And that the UI remains consistent with other text boxes. —Tacsipacsi (talk) 00:50, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
@Tacsipacsi: It's not really the native UI that's the issue, it's the fact that the native UI would be confusing when there are two panes (because it'd either go on the edit box or the preview box or both) and it's not good to have to switch between the two types of resizing. At least, that's why we've gone the way of making the new one. Also, this will mean that we can get rid of the custom resizer in CodeMirror (it's a legacy jQuery UI component). SWilson (WMF) (talk) 07:24, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
@SWilson (WMF): I know the native UI would be confusing when there are two panes, this is why I asked it to use only when there’s only one pane (the preview hasn’t been opened). Yes, it’s confusing if the two states of the edit box use a different resizing techniques, but it’s also confusing if two different textboxes use different resizing techniques. And if one doesn’t use the real-time preview, they encounter only the latter. (And the native technique’s performance is probably also better.) —Tacsipacsi (talk) 08:59, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
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