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Requests for comment/Start allowing ancient languagesEdit

So, someone started this RFC page, is there any members of langcom interested in it? --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 04:41, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

Wikipedia EdhellenEdit

Ai! Glassen, garo i barf an lam Edhellen (Eglathrin) ISO 639-3: sjn

Hi. Please, define a project for the Sindarin language ISO 639-3: sjn Thank you. --Calad-ne-dúath (talk) 09:05, 5 June 2021 (UTC)

Hello. Sindarin is a fictional language. Notwithstanding the existence of an ISO 639–3 code, fictional languages are not eligible for projects. Please see Language proposal policy. --Sotiale (talk) 05:35, 6 June 2021 (UTC)
Ok, Houston, we have a question. In that case, I would like to draw your attention to such a problem. Sindarin is worldwide, there are many resources on the Internet devoted to its study, people communicate in it in written and verbal form, and its popularity is only growing. At the same time, there is the Wikipedia-approved Esperanto language and other artificial languages, perhaps even less elaborated than Sindarin. So why aren't these languages subject to the same kind of restrictions? --Calad-ne-dúath (talk) 09:15, 6 June 2021 (UTC)--Calad-ne-dúath (talk) 09:15, 6 June 2021 (UTC)
I think the delineation is between "constructed language" ([1] [2] and "fictional language" (3). You can argue it's a constructed language if it fulfill the criteria in Requisites for eligibility #4. But seeing that it's been attempted and denied (incubator:Wp/sjn, Requests for new languages/Wikipedia Sindarin), I think the fate is sealed. Bennylin 13:50, 6 June 2021 (UTC)
Ok, thanks. I see that the Wikipedia section on Sindarin was closed before the articles were published. It's my personal opinion that we shouldn't cut such an original linguistic project down. It is worthwhile, for starters, to do a little research on the language and translate a few articles, including an article on Sindarin itself. I believe this would allow to fully assess the capabilities of the language, its informativeness, readability, and various other parameters, and then draw conclusions about its relevance within the project and decide whether it is worth keeping or excluding. --Calad-ne-dúath (talk) 14:12, 6 June 2021 (UTC)
At a quick glance, there are zero publications in Sindarin. Note that Esperanto has a monthly magazine on international news, as well as various other periodicals and translations and original works, actively entering publication. As far as I know, the entire vocabulary of Sindarin comes from the limited corpus left by Tolkien, which is by its nature not so complete as a vocabulary of any artificial language designed for modern communication.--Prosfilaes (talk) 04:24, 9 June 2021 (UTC)
Hello, Profilaes, and thank you for your response. Sindarin has not only a rich vocabulary, but also a mechanism of word formation, which easily eliminates the lack of its "non-modernity", allowing you to give names to modern technology, describing the laws of physics and mathematics, and not to resort to borrowing. Moreover - the mechanism of word formation in Sindarin is so flexible and universal that it allows you to give names to phenomena, events and objects that have no place in objective reality. I will supplement my defense by the assertion that various informational and media materials are also published on Sindarin.--Calad-ne-dúath (talk) 17:58, 9 June 2021 (UTC)
As someone who has studied the artificial interlinguistics to some extent, I just don't buy it. Every attempt to produce a language with a flexible and universal mechanism of word formation has had troubles with language and reality. German, English, Russian and Esperanto are all pretty flexible about forming words, but instead of repeating some variant of an alcoholic drink served before a meal as an appetizer, Aperitif, apéritif, аперити́в (aperitív), and aperitivo have been borrowed from French into their respective languages. I laugh at the idea of Elsa singing about "My soul is spiraling in frozen objects with non-integral Hausdorff-Besicovitch dimensions all around" instead of "frozen fractals all around".
You make that assertion, but provide no evidence. I know there are books on Sindarin, but that's not the interesting question; the question is, is there material in Sindarin?--Prosfilaes (talk) 23:10, 9 June 2021 (UTC)
Interesting point of view, but your message is written as if you are evaluating Sindarin and its capabilities in a biased and subjective way. This is certainly a valuable way of assessing language capabilities, but it puts some strain on the effectiveness of decision-making. "I fae nin osrevia im thencim chelui" (that line from the Elsa song in Sindarin). Osrevia - spiraling, i fae nin - my soul (soul my), thencim chelui - frozen fractals (fractals frozen). Sorry, I don't know this song, so I translated your line. You can translate anything into Sindarin. I think we have the material.--Calad-ne-dúath (talk) 03:56, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
@Calad-ne-dúath: If you really think that there should have a Sindarin Wikipedia test, here to go. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 10:59, 11 June 2021 (UTC)
By biased and subjective, I'm forced to conclude you mean "using facts you don't like", as you certainly provide no evidence for your case. Fractal is a word invented by Mandelbrot in 1975, two years after Tolkien died, and the concept was basically invented along with it. So either you're making up words when you translate it as "thencim", or you're not fully translating the concept.
And this is starting to annoy me; if you want a Sindarin encyclopedia, there are several free wiki sites out there, and it's not too hard to run your own wiki on your own website. It feels like it's more important to have a Wikipedia™ than make an encyclopedia for many of these language suggestions.--Prosfilaes (talk) 00:15, 12 June 2021 (UTC)
Please don't be annoyed. If you wish, I will grant your wish and leave Wikipedia where I will not interfere with you personally. However, I believe you greatly underestimate Sindarin. I mentioned above the advanced word-formation mechanism in Sindarin. It allows you to assemble words like a construction set, and you can say anything you want in Sindarin if you want to. Tolkien personally showed this directly in his own books when he named cities, countries, characters, various events and objects.
The word "thencim" is in the plural, its singular is "thancem". "Thanc" - "fractured" and "em" - "image", "fractured image" as in Latin and "image" is not meant as a picture. "Fractured shape" sounds as "thancfan" (singular) or "thencfain" (plural). This word is possible because of an advanced word-formation mechanism, even if Tolkien did not think of such a thing. I may not be providing links to informational material, but I can provide the case. One case is always more effective than a thousand words.--Calad-ne-dúath (talk) 06:36, 12 June 2021 (UTC)
@Calad-ne-dúath: I boldly reseted incubator:Wp/sjn, so that you may start creating pages by clicking "Create page". --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 00:58, 13 June 2021 (UTC)
OK, thank you. I'm already translating an article about Sindarin. I think this is where the relevant Wikipedia section should start.--Calad-ne-dúath (talk) 09:26, 13 June 2021 (UTC)
Except a fractal is not a fractured image, but an object with a non-integral Hausdorff-Besicovitch dimension. That's nothing special; learn a little Esperanto or heck, some polysynthetic language. You could use clunky word formation to get the English "They would carry the dead wallaby on their shoulders.", or speak the Tiwi language and get the one word "Pitiwuliyondjirrurlimpirrani".--Prosfilaes (talk) 17:43, 14 June 2021 (UTC)
Hello, Prosfilaes. It is wonderful to know of your interest in the word "fractal," but I will make one small point. What you say about fractals refers to the definition of their meaning, but we don't call their definition when we talk about them unless we are talking about fractals at the university with a professor. We call one short word based on Latin. The ancient Romans knew nothing about fractals, but we call fractal a word from their language, and that word means "fractured," the etymology of which goes back to Latin.--Calad-ne-dúath (talk) 11:53, 15 June 2021 (UTC)
The word "fractal" refers to a specific set of objects, not those that are fractured. commons:Fractals is different from commons:Category:Fractures, and while most English speakers don't have a deep understanding of the meaning, they don't conflate "fractal" with "fractured". We use one short word, that's not in Sindarin; like every other language in the world, you can borrow it literally or calque it like you did.--Prosfilaes (talk) 15:07, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

Requests for comment/Policy on creating new Wikiprojects language versionsEdit

Another RFC to propose changing the currently policy, what do we think about it? --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 01:03, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

Requests for Thao WiktionaryEdit


I've notice that some Thao editors are quite active these days. For the Wikipedia project, they've already have their Incubator to update there. And now it seems they also try to build their Wiktionary at the same time[3]. I am here to request for them to create their Incubator for Wiktionary.

Also, I saw some discussion about Ancient Greek Wikipedia project. And it seems that for now, they cannot get their site. In the case of Thao Wikiproject, also as an "ancient" or like extinct language, is it possible for them to get their site if they still stay active for a few months?

Thank you.Iyumu (talk) 08:57, 9 June 2021 (UTC)

Hi! I also support both Wikipedia and Wiktionary projects of Thao. They are active on Incubator recently. It will be good news for them if they got a chance to request again for Thao Wikipedia.Ripunn (talk) 10:09, 10 June 2021 (UTC)

Need Apporoval for Sinhala WikiquoteEdit

Why is there no official site for wq/si ( yet? How should we contribute for get approval? I kindly request that you approval Wikiquote Sinhala for Sri Lankan users. Shanuka Shehan Kumara (talk) 06:46, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

@Shanuka Shehan Kumara: Because ehh, as per [4], you're the only contributor for now, do you have at least two of your friends, that can join contributing with you? --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 10:57, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

Wikipedia Bahaso JambiEdit

I propose for the Committee to verify the eligibility of Wikipedia Bahaso Jambi. The activity seems good in the past couple of months and could be on track for approval. dwadieff 10:00, 13 June 2021 (UTC)

Notification about proposed approval of Javanese WikisourceEdit

Hi! Langcom intends to approve Javanese Wikisource. If you have objections to that based on the language proposal policy, please tell us here on this page in the next seven days. Meanwhile, the community of the project is asked to check (and if necessary, complete) the wiki settings as indicated on the request page. --MF-W 15:40, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

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