Requests for new languages/Wikipedia Hainanese 2

main page Request for a new language edition: Wikipedia Hainanese 2
submitted verification final decision
Crystal Clear mimetype file temporary.png Discuss the creation of this language project on this page. Votes will be ignored when judging the proposal. Please provide arguments or reasons and be prepared to defend them (see the Language proposal policy).

The language committee needs to verify the language is eligible to be approved.

  • Check that the project does not already exist (see list).
  • Obtain an ISO 639 code
  • Ensure the requested language is sufficiently unique that it could not exist on a more general wiki.
  • Ensure that there are a sufficient number of native editors of that language to merit an edition in that language.

This proposal is on hold:

On hold, pending evaluation of SIL request 2019-062. But please also see my comment below. StevenJ81 (talk) 14:44, 11 November 2019 (UTC)
  • The community needs to develop an active test project; it must remain active until approval (automated statistics, recent changes). It is generally considered active if the analysis lists at least three active, not-grayed-out editors listed in the sections for the previous few months.
  • The community needs to complete required MediaWiki interface translations in that language (about localization, translatewiki, check completion).
  • The community needs to discuss and complete the settings table below:
What Value Example / Explanation
Language code  (SILEthnologue) A valid ISO 639-1 or 639-3 language code, like "fr", "de", "nso", ...
Language name Hainanese Language name in English
Language name 琼語 Language name in your language. This will appear in the language list on Special:Preferences, in the interwiki sidebar on other wikis, ...
Language Wikidata item Q934541 - item has currently the following values:
  • en label = Hainanese
  • native label (P1705) =
  • instance/subclass (P31/P279) = dialect / Southern Min
  • Wikimedia language code (P424) =
  • writing system (P282) =
  • number of speakers (P1098) =

Item about the language at Wikidata. It would normally include the Wikimedia language code, name of the language, etc. Please complete at Wikidata if needed.
You can optionally list your user name if you are an active contributor to the test wiki. Add "N" next to your name if you are a native speaker of this language.
Links Links to previous requests, or references to external websites or documents.
Project name xxxxxxx "Wikipedia" in your language
Project namespace usually the same as the project name
Project talk namespace "Wikipedia talk" (the discussion namespace of the project namespace)
Enable uploads yes Default is "no". Preferably, files should be uploaded to Commons.
If you want, you can enable local file uploading, either by any user ("yes") or by administrators only ("admin").
Notes: (1) This setting can be changed afterwards. The setting can only be "yes" or "admin" at approval if the test creates an Exemption Doctrine Policy (EDP) first. (2) Files on Commons can be used on all Wikis. (3) Uploading fair-use images is not allowed on Commons (more info). (4) Localisation to your language may be insufficient on Commons.
Optional settings
Project logo 135x135 PNG derivative from a decent SVG image (instructions)
Default project timezone UTC "Continent/City", e.g. "Europe/Brussels" or "America/Mexico City" (see list of valid timezones)
Additional namespaces For example for a Wikisource which would need "Page", "Page talk", "Index", "Index talk"
Additional settings Anything else that should be set
submit phabricator task (includes everything automatically, except additional namespaces/settings)


Hainanese is a branch of the Min Nan group of Chinese spoken in the southern Chinese islands and province of Hainan. It is mutually unintelligible with other Min Nan dialects, such as Teochew and Hokkien–Taiwanese. Its pronunciation is very different from other languages in the whole world -It has the complete Clicks sound pronunciation system. So it's very valuable. But now, the Mandarian Chinese is attacking the Hainanese language culture. And it's a danger in Hainanese language culture. We must try to protect it. Audio recordings in Hainanese, Chinese History Forum:Hainanese Dialect, Hainanese Pronunciation Lesson


Arguments in favourEdit

  • iso639-3:qhn is "Reserved for local use", so I'm doubt if this Wikipedia could be started. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 05:42, 30 May 2016 (UTC)
  • Robert Sneed says yes! --CasetteTapeMaster (talk) 03:03, 2 June 2016 (UTC)
  • Yes - 5 million speakers. I reckon it's a goer...Casliber (talk) 03:38, 2 June 2016 (UTC)
  • There's a problem here in that there's no ISO code. On the other hand, there are five million speakers. The Wikipedia article suggests that this [language/dialect] is not mutually intelligible with other Southern Han [languages/dialects]. So probably the best bet here is for someone to put in a request at SIL for a language code. If someone provides evidence that there is an application for a language code pending then at least an Incubator project could start. StevenJ81 (talk) 19:39, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
  • As long as it uses Chinese characters, it's okay. Do not create a Latin script for it, that would be inventing the language. --Explosivo (talk) 18:21, 22 September 2017 (UTC)
  • Someone need to talk to SIL and get them split the ISO639 code for Minnan into Hokkien, Chaoshan and Hainanese first (Possibly also Zhongshan Min, Datian Min and Zhenan Min?) In the previous request for Teochew wikipedia, it was mentioned as a way to fulfill the ISO code requirement, however, as the proposal from Teochew code at the time did not resolve the situation regarding other Minnan variants, the proposal did not go through. Although as far as I can tell Hainanese is even more widely recognized as distinct from Minnan, the code still have not been breakaway yet, and thus it will still face the same problem. @CasetteTapeMaster: C933103 (talk) 23:48, 11 November 2017 (UTC)
    @C933103: Note that there's a request (although unrelated) about Sichuanese on SIL, this means that it's also possible to just request a code for Hainanese or Teochew without touching (includes splitting) the nan. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 08:08, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
    • Regardless someone should send write a proposal up and send it to SIL C933103 (talk) 11:15, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
  • Support Support It is very different with other Minnans. A map.--Kitabc12345 (talk) 11:24, 4 July 2019 (UTC)

Arguments againstEdit

  • Oppose No ISO code. -- 08:38, 25 September 2018 (UTC)

Other discussionEdit

Obtaining a Hainanese ISO-639-3 language codeEdit

@StevenJ81: It looks like that, per SIL request 2019-062, there's a proposal to use nzq for Hainanese, should we on hold this proposal in favor of that SIL request? --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 02:39, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

Good idea, and I've done that. But that having been said: I think people need to stop and consider the question of whether the Min languages are mutually intelligible in writing. The fact that pronunciation system is different is largely not relevant to a written project like this. StevenJ81 (talk) 14:44, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

In 2008, Hainanese WikipediaEdit

  • By the way, in 2008, someone application of Hainanese Wikipedia.--Kitabc12345 (talk) 11:24, 4 July 2019 (UTC)
    @Kitabc12345: Hello, as far as I've checked on SIL, there's no ISO code that is used for Hainanese, nor any requests that are about Hainanese in any years, if you're indeed trying to obtain an ISO code for Hainanese, please follow this instruction: Submitting ISO 639-3 Change Requests. Thank you. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 22:53, 4 July 2019 (UTC)
    • @Liuxinyu970226: I have not applied for the ISO code plan for the time being because the form is too difficult to fill. --Kitabc12345 (talk) 06:35, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
    • And I am not the initiator of Wikipedia in this language. When I have time, I may fill it out again.--Kitabc12345 (talk) 06:40, 5 July 2019 (UTC)

Hainanese SubgroupEdit

Hainanese Subgroup(海南话方言片區)

  • Hainanese has many dialects and subgroup. But many of them are not interoperable(互通), leading to the same "words" have different ways and meanings.--Kitabc12345 (talk) 05:56, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
  • Like: Fucheng subgroup, Wenchang subgroup, Wanning subgroup, Yaxian subgroup, Changgan subgroup.......--Kitabc12345 (talk) 05:56, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
  • I believe this should be difficult to solve.--Kitabc12345 (talk) 05:56, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
    • @Kitabc12345: This is far from that you can start testing, any things can call them so as far as possible. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 22:49, 23 August 2019 (UTC)


  • How different is Hainanese from Minnan? Would it be possible to make it part of Minnan Wikipedia? Sabon Harshe (talk) 17:22, 24 December 2019 (UTC)
  • Hainanese and Minnan actually use similar Chinese characters, but the pronunciation and interpretation of some words are different. If one person speaks Hainanese but the other person only understands Minnan, he can only understand about half. Because of this, some literature points out that Hainan dialect and Minnan dialect are almost two different sets of languages and cannot be considered as one of the dialects of Minnan dialect.--Kitabc12345 (talk) 10:00, 24 February 2020 (UTC)
  • @Sabon Harshe: Although Hainanese and Minnan similar to the Chinese characters used, their pronunciation is different, so the pinyin is different. Minnan Wikipedia used Pe̍h-ōe-jī and Official romanization scheme for Taiwanese Hokkien as the written text. But Hainanese's romanization is different, so it may not be possible to make it part of Minnan Wikipedia. --Kitabc12345 (talk) 09:57, 26 February 2020 (UTC)

2019-062 rejectedEdit

Dear all participates @Casliber, StevenJ81, Explosivo, C933103, and Kitabc12345:@Sabon Harshe:, The request to split the code element [nan] for Min Nan Chinese and create the codes [nzl] Leizhou Min Chinese, [nzq] Hainanese, [nzn] Datian Min Chinese, [nzc] Chaoshan Min Chinese and [nzh] Hokkien Chinese is rejected. The request to elevate the major dialects of Min Nan Chinese is based on an opening assertion that the varieties are not mutually intelligible, but then proceeds to argue in terms of issues general to China rather than evidence of specifics. The consensus of scholarly opinion (as reflected in Glottolog) appears to be to treat them as the dialects of a language. Furthermore, An Encyclopedia of the 140 Languages of China (W. Shearer and H.Sun, 2017) treats Min Nan Chinese as a dialect of the Chinese Language Complex and the varieties in question as subdialects. The Registrar has thus chosen to follow the preponderance of scholarship in leaving the varieties of Min Nan Chinese as dialects. Therefore we can reject this RFL now? --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 03:29, 1 February 2020 (UTC)

ISO cited glottolog as a reason to reject the request yet one of the source for glottolog's current classification is a similar ISO document from a decade ago. That's basically circular reference. Other sources in glottolog describe Hainanese as a dialect as much as they describe Min Nan as a dialect or even Min as a whole as a dialect, that cannot support the classification of Min Nan as a language while classifying Hainan as a dialect. I would recommend departing from the ISO standard for practical purpose. C933103 (talk) 12:45, 1 February 2020 (UTC)
  • It is mentioned in the document that The request to elevate the major dialects of Min Nan Chinese is based on an opening assertion that the varieties are not mutually intelligible. In fact, Hainanese and most Min dialects are not mutually intelligible. In terms of consonants, the consonants in Hainanese do not have the opposite of aspirated and non-aspirated, which is rare in Chinese variants. The aspirated sounds / pʰ /, / tʰ /, / t͡sʰ /, / kʰ / in Min Nan are pronounced as fricative / f /, / h /, / s /, / x / in Hainanese. / P /, / t / in other Min dialects are pronounced as implosions / ɓ /, / ɗ / in Hainanese. Other initials of / s / and part of / ts / in Min dialect are read as / t / in Hainanese, so that Hainanese and Quanzhang dialect and Chaoshan dialect of Minnan are not mutually intelligible. I don't think we have relevant literature to support this theory. Especially about the special features of Hainanese and other Minnan dialects. Someone in the Chinese Wikipedia template pointed out a note, referring to one: Hainanese and Leizhou Min Chinese were originally Minnanese Qiongwen films and Leizhou films, respectively, and they are all underlined now, and they are listed as Qionglei words directly under the Fujian language. Finger 2: Hainanese and Leizhou Min Chinese are both directly belonging to the Min language in "Language Atlas of China", but some scholars believe that the two are closely related to form Qiong lei Min Chinese (瓊雷話). Both Hainanese and Leizhou Min Chinese were born from ancient Minnan. At the end of the Song Dynasty, due to the war, a large number of Minnanese left their hometown and migrated to the coastal areas of Leizhou Peninsula and Hainan Island. They lived adjacent to Lin Gao people for a long time, and the Minnan language they spoke was in linguistic contact with Lin Gao language (belonging to Kra–Dai languages). In addition, they were geographically isolated from Minnan area, with intonation and vocabulary. It is so different that it is difficult to communicate. Since Hainanese and Leizhou Min Chinese are directly Min languages in "Language Atlas of China", it is enough to prove the difference between Hainanese and other Min Chinese and Hainanese is not Min Chinese dialect. --Kitabc12345 (talk) 14:49, 1 February 2020 (UTC)
    But then, IANA BCP47 subtag list does also not include any subtags for "dialects" of Min Nan, it also only repeats how the SIL's classification is like:
Type: language
Subtag: nan
Description: Min Nan Chinese
Added: 2009-07-29
Macrolanguage: zh 
Type: extlang
Subtag: nan
Description: Min Nan Chinese
Added: 2009-07-29
Preferred-Value: nan
Prefix: zh
Macrolanguage: zh 

This means that the "Under very unusual circumstances, and provided there has first been an effort to obtain an ISO 639–3 code, the Language Committee may be willing to consider projects in languages having a valid BCP 47 language tag. Languages having neither an ISO 639 code nor a BCP 47 tag will not be considered under any circumstances." even doesn't applied here, so at least I see no reason why this request can't be rejected. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 15:10, 1 February 2020 (UTC)

  Comment I agree Liu. that Wikipedia isn't suitable for Hainanese for the time being, should better use Wikia or Miraheze to start an encyclopedia website in Hainanese. -- 23:46, 1 February 2020 (UTC)
In fact, there was already a Hainanese encyclopedia project on Wikia in December 2012, but now there are only 10 articles, 0 active users and 384 editors, and it is now abandoned. Hainanese Encyclopedia's latest operation was on October 23, 2016.--Kitabc12345 (talk) 07:28, 4 February 2020 (UTC)

Re-apply for ISO 639-3 codeEdit

In fact, I am dissatisfied that Glottolog has not approved ISO 639-3 for Hainanese. The strangest thing is that Hainanese is not included in ISO 639-3, but Cun language is included. Obviously, there are not so many Cun language users, and Lexical similarity with standard Hlai is 40%. In contrast, Hainanese have different vocabulary (Hainan Romanized and Hainanese Transliteration Scheme) and tone from other Min. But we have no literature to point it out. Among them, Glottolog mentioned in the comment that The request to elevate the major dialects of Min Nan Chinese is based on an opening assertion that the varieties are not mutually intelligible. Hainanese may meet this requirement, but the Min Nan Chinese dialect of other applications is This requirement may not be met. I think Glottolog needs a separate look at Hainanese, and maybe there is a chance to grab the code. Therefore, I request to re-apply for the ISO 639-3 code. --Kitabc12345 (talk) 09:57, 26 February 2020 (UTC)

@Kitabc12345: By "Cun language" you mean this? --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 14:28, 1 March 2020 (UTC)
@Kitabc12345:, in 2017 there was an ISO 639-3 request for Sichuanese which was rejected with the following reason: "The RA notes that the request ignores one key basis for decisions: that languages which use the same written language may be considered a single language. Although the evidence shows divergence in the spoken variety of .... that might be sufficient to call it a separate language, it is still a part of the Mandarin dialects and using standard written Chinese....Therefore the current request ....has been rejected." (source).
If you are intending to create a Hainanese Wikipedia written in the Hainanese Romanized alphabet, then you may yet have a chance to plead your case, however if you wish to create Hainanese articles solely in Han characters, then your endeavor will not succeed and will be rejected by, in fact it will be met by stiff opposition from Chinese linguists and other Chinese netizens both in the Mainland and abroad. --Ernesztina (talk) 07:58, 13 April 2020 (UTC)
@Ernesztina:, I think this argument is ridiculous because almost all dialects in China are written in Chinese characters, I think they are not part of Chinese, but separate languages. --Kitabc12345 (talk) 08:16, 13 April 2020 (UTC)
Hainanese Wikipedia can refer to the Minnan Wikipedia for add Bbánlám pìngyīm and Chinese characters note. Like Hainan Romanized add Chinese characters note. --Kitabc12345 (talk) 08:16, 13 April 2020 (UTC)
@Kitabc12345: The Bân-lâm-gú word lookup can be found online, however no such online dictionary could be found for Hainanese. I have therefore created a table here. If you and others could fill in the Romanized Hainanese equivalents of those words, then I can help setup a translation tool for Hainanese. --Ernesztina (talk) 09:19, 13 April 2020 (UTC)
OK, I would try and fill it. Thank you for your help. --Kitabc12345 (talk) 09:25, 13 April 2020 (UTC)
  Comment I was tried to file a new request in the last week, but SIL quickly rejected my email because "new requests for a rejected language entity should not be repeated within 2 years". --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 02:44, 18 April 2020 (UTC)
What a weird rule is this...--Kitabc12345 (talk) 08:14, 25 April 2020 (UTC)
I noticed that the Code Change History of 639 Identifier Documentation: zho was updated on January 23, 2020. The update includes the addition of a batch of languages for the qualification of new members, including Hainan Min Chinese but I cannot find the new code. I also noticed that Change Request Documentation: 2019-065 wrote "rejected", maybe they need to clarify it. (May be affected by COVID-19) --Kitabc12345 (talk) 08:37, 25 April 2020 (UTC)
I have no idea that why the "rejected" change requests were also repeated by iso639-3:zho. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 07:19, 30 April 2020 (UTC)
If you're asking how the 2019-065 request was proceed, well per [1]: The request is based on the requests to split several members of the [zho] macrolanguage. Of these five requests, 2019-061 through 2019-064 have been rejected, but the request for 2019-060 was accepted. Therefore, the two languages created through that request are treated as additional members of the macrolanguage Chinese [zho]. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 22:12, 1 May 2020 (UTC)
@Liuxinyu970226: ok, It seems that this problem is difficult to solve, but I deeply believe that Hainanese has his own independent ISO 639-3 code, because Southern Min speaks cannot understand Hainanese at all. Just like Min Bei Chinese speakers cannot understand Southern Min speaks.--Kitabc12345 (talk) 16:26, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
Everyone should refer to this page to see how big the difference is between Romanization of Hainanese and Other Min languages... --Kitabc12345 (talk) 16:54, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
In addition, I feel that Shaojiang Min Chinese [sjc], Hainan Min Chinese [nzq], Leizhou Min Chinese [nzl], Datian Min Chinese [nzn], Chaoshan Min Chinese [nzc], Hokkien Chinese [nzh] hardly make Southern Min speaks understand too.--Kitabc12345 (talk) 16:32, 4 May 2020 (UTC)
@Kitabc12345: Shaojiang Min is not able to understand Southern Min, yes, but instead they know the Northern Min, cf. [2]. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 00:36, 20 June 2020 (UTC)