Talk:Language committee

Active discussions
(Redirected from Talk:Language subcommittee)
Language committee (contact page about requests)

Please add any questions or feedback to the language committee here on this page.

Archives of this page

See also: Requests for new languages/Archives

Norwegian, and Norwegian Nynorsk: Please revert Wikipedia name change of "Norwegian Bokmål" to "Norwegian"Edit

"Norwegian" refers to two written languages: Bokmål and Nynorsk. The two languages are by law considered equal, as outlined in the 1980 Lov om målbruk i offentleg teneste (Source: Store Norske Leksikon [1]). Neither Nynorsk nor Bokmål are thus, on the national level, considered a more "correct" form of Norwegian (there are historical and practical arguments in favour of both). Municipalities, on the other hand, can select an official form (or remain neutral), as outlined in this map.[2]

The Bokmål form is favoured by speakers in Eastern Norway including the capital, Oslo, whereas Nynorsk has its stronghold in the more affluent Western Norway. Please refer to the Norwegian language conflict,[3] which in turn has a historical parallel in the Faroese language conflict[4].

The Wikipedia "" used to be called "Norwegian Bokmål", but has recently been renamed simply "Norwegian", even if it does not allow Nynorsk articles: it is a Bokmål Wikipedia. The Nynorsk Wikipedia,, is still called "Norwegian Nynorsk". This appears to me to be an attempt to claim Bokmål as a "natural" form of Norwegian, a view often held in Eastern Norway perhaps because this is the form East Norwegians are more often exposed to, and Nynorsk as a more "specific" form of Norwegian. As pointed out, this does not reflect the official definition of "Norwegian", nor the official standing of Bokmål and Nynorsk as equal. And, before someone mentions the term Standard Østnorsk, I can point out that this (1)is not an nationally approved standard, but merely mentioned by academics (and then as a regional, not a national phenomenon), (2)only refers to speech, and (3)is only spoken in Eastern Norway, as illustrated by the fact that the prime minister Erna Solberg[5] speaks Bokmål with the very different set of phonetics and intonation found in Bergen, (4)the alleged "standard" refers only to East Norwegian Bokmål speech, not to East Norwegian Nynorsk speech, which is also widespread in some places, for instance in large areas of Telemark.

The name change should on the basis of the above be reverted. Narssarssuaq (talk) 14:27, 7 September 2019 (UTC)

Could you please specify where exactly you observed this name change? As someone who does not speak Norwegian, I have a hard time guessing where exactly you made the observation which you describe here. FWIW, nowiki claims for itself to be the Wikipedia of Bokmål and Riksmål ("Velkommen til Wikipedia, den frie encyklopedi som du kan forbedre. 518 233 artikler på bokmål og riksmål". Kind regards, --Vogone (talk) 20:30, 7 September 2019 (UTC)
More precisely, my complaint refers to the language which is specified in the leftmost tab on the desktop version of Wikipedia, where you can choose "Norsk" (lit., Norwegian) and "Norsk nynorsk" (lit., Norwegian Nynorsk). The former of the two used to read "Norsk bokmål" (Norwegian Bokmål) - which I demonstrated above to be correct - and it was changed about a year or two ago. As the function of changing languages to read different versions is popular among Norwegians, they use this menu extensively, and the error is thus quite visible. Narssarssuaq (talk) 19:48, 9 September 2019 (UTC)
Does anyone know whether this was done through a local Phabricator task (@MF-Warburg and Liuxinyu970226?) or whether this is something we inherited from the Unicode Common Locale Data Repository? If it was done as a Phabricator, there should have been a local discussion first. But if it's CLDR, then that has to be addressed to CLDR, not locally. StevenJ81 (talk) 13:36, 10 September 2019 (UTC)
It's not CLDR's problem; it's Wikimedia's problem that they have a Bokmål Norwegian Wikipedia under the tag "no", which should be for Norwegian in general.--Prosfilaes (talk) 04:31, 12 September 2019 (UTC)
Yeah, but note that it's two different languages, and fitting both under one umbrella would not be popular. Narssarssuaq (talk) 17:59, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
I have no idea. So a change happened, but nobody knows when exactly and by whom? And it happened "a year or two ago" and Norwegians see it every day, but nobody cared enough so far to investigate? --MF-W 12:15, 12 September 2019 (UTC)
Actually, it took me years to find this page. Narssarssuaq (talk) 17:59, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
@StevenJ81: The language code for nowiki is wrong, and has been wrong for many years. CLDR gives a correct mapping as “no” is “norsk” (“Norwegian”). The project should use “nb”. A complete fix is rather complex, and there are also some resistance against it at nowiki. — Jeblad 10:34, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
  Oppose This isn't a good way to do, as Bokmål ≠ the entire Norwegian, your revert idea will only make Babel boxes parameters wrong, @Narssarssuaq: the much more better way is to rename domain and wikidata site id. Anyway, their community always claim that "we do also have articles in Riksmål", but they eventually didn't provided anyone example of "articles in Riksmål". --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 21:52, 10 September 2019 (UTC)
I was unable to follow your argument. Narssarssuaq (talk) 17:17, 11 September 2019 (UTC)
@Narssarssuaq: cf. Requests for comment/Rename no.wikipedia to nb.wikipedia. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 04:34, 12 September 2019 (UTC)
Also, saying this site as "nowiki" will only make confusions between a commonly used magic word <nowiki></nowiki> and this. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 04:54, 12 September 2019 (UTC)
I am unable to follow this argument as well. There's nowiki, there's mywiki, there's yowiki, the only thing we can't have is wwwwiki... --MF-W 12:15, 12 September 2019 (UTC)
I don't think you quite understand. What I am suggesting is merely a change in the desktop menu on the left: that is called "Norsk Bokmål" like before, not "Norsk" as it is now. And when you're at it, you may want to change the two into "Norsk (bokmål)" and "Norsk (nynorsk)", which would arguably be the most precise nomenclature. Narssarssuaq (talk) 09:00, 14 September 2019 (UTC)
@Narssarssuaq: That should be fixed in CLDR, not in WMF. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 23:14, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
@MF-Warburg: mywiki would not make any confusions as anyone who knows this language always trust that my is ISO 639-1 Myanmar, likely yowiki would never have other meanings than Yoruba. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 23:18, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
Lol. --MF-W 23:19, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
Simply, both mywiki and yowiki will never make confusions for computing funs, but nowiki can. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 23:32, 16 September 2019 (UTC)
Anyway, there are nowikibooks, nowikinews and incubator:Wy/no/Hovedside, if you reverted no to be "Norwegian Bokmål", then these projects will be confusion to new users as it may lead to "Bokmål only". Such a revert will also fit a data bomb on Wikidata as there are two "Bokmål" entries. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 04:17, 17 September 2019 (UTC)
I don't suppose the MediaWiki (or Wikimedia) infrastructure would allow us to change that only on Wikipedia pages, but not on other project pages ... StevenJ81 (talk) 15:13, 17 September 2019 (UTC)
As far as I can tell, "no" doesn't exist as a locale in CLDR at this point, so it must be handled locally somehow. Was there a change in our "names" table? StevenJ81 (talk) 15:24, 17 September 2019 (UTC)
The code “no” (“Norwegian”) is a macrocode covering both “nb” (“Bokmål”) and “nn” (“Nynorsk”). There are two other language variants, “Høgnorsk” and “Riksmål”, where the former has a language code while the later has not. — Jeblad 10:41, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
Excerpts from IANA subtag registry 
Type: language
Subtag: nb
Description: Norwegian Bokmål
Added: 2005-10-16
Suppress-Script: Latn
Macrolanguage: no%%
Type: language
Subtag: nn
Description: Norwegian Nynorsk
Added: 2005-10-16
Suppress-Script: Latn
Macrolanguage: no
Type: language
Subtag: no
Description: Norwegian
Added: 2005-10-16
Suppress-Script: Latn
Scope: macrolanguage
Agree, what you point out needs to be avoided. In some projects, "Norwegian" has come to refer to Bokmål+Nynorsk combined, and changing this would probably be unfortunate. For instance, I can see that the Wikibooks site has reached some form of compromise, with the front page written in both Norwegian languages, i.e. Bokmål and Nynorsk, and with articles in both languages being welcome. Due to the limited number of Wikibooks available, this seems like a good way to increase the available content and make search and discover easier for Norwegians. Wikipedia, on the other hand, has from the very start been strictly divided into two parts with no general "Norwegian" umbrella above it, which also has worked out fine. I see no reason to change the overarching structure of either. My point was merely one of incorrect nomenclature in the language tab on Wikipedia. Narssarssuaq (talk) 09:58, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
@Narssarssuaq: No, it's not "a good way to increase" either, because you're still proposing to show duplicated "Norwegian Bokmål" entries in Wikidata (unless, if you can technicall tell me that how your "revert" suggestion on Wikipedia won't technically affect Wikidata). --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 10:12, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
I'm not proposing anything technical, because I don't know how Wikimedia works. I am only pointing out a recommended change to the user interface. You guys need to work this out. Narssarssuaq (talk) 10:20, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
@Narssarssuaq: I would just tell you this word before this section be archived: Nope. I won't work this, at least I-W-O-N-'-T. Because you didn't share anything about why I should do so, all of you concerns are, as far as we including you, to be fixed by other ways. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 11:59, 19 November 2019 (UTC)
Note that I'm planning to start a business travel in North Korea next week, which means that I may not possible to access this page, so don't ping me anymore in this section, please. Please instead ask @Jeblad: for more about this section. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 10:15, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
(I don't know how Wikimedia works, but I'll give a few observations from a user's perspective:) Of course, one more drastic possibility is to move the Bokmål Wikipedia to, say, or something (although that's already taken), and retain as a sort of meta-Wikipedia above "nn" and "bm". It has from the start been a slight practical problem that users have to check both Wikipedia sites to see whether there's an article in "Norwegian" on a particular topic. I'd like to stress, however, that one should not make userfriendliness any worse than it is, and one should also be mindful of the fact that nuisance may arise whenever the two languages have to be mixed together in one site. From an aesthetic point of view it would look a bit like mixing Scots and English in one site, which would look a bit annoying because it will be visible that the overall form is a bit forced/artificial, whereas a search engine that covers both might be understood as more useful. Narssarssuaq (talk) 10:21, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
It isn't two languages, it is two written variants of the same language. The language code in question is “no”, “nb”, and “nn”, and they are quite well-defined. The old RFC for renaming nowiki as nbwiki can be found at Requests for comment/Rename no.wikipedia to nb.wikipedia. I also made a temporary solution for making an override of the language entry in the sidebar, but it was not possible to achieve consensus. — Jeblad 10:55, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
I should probably reiterate the fact that nnwiki (that is Nynorsk) has two subvariants where Høgnorsk is unofficial, and that nowiki (the present Bokmål version) has several subvariants. Bokmål have two main variants, radical and standard, and also an unofficial variant Riksmål. In between we have Moderate Bokmål, which is a form commonly used in the newspapers. It is not easy to identify any of the articles as clearly written in one specific subvariant. You can even write Nynorsk and nearly call it Radikalt Bokmål. — Jeblad 11:04, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
Høgnorsk (Nynorsk) and Riksmål (Bokmål) are accepted for use on Wikipedia, and conform to more archaic written conventions of the two variations. As for radikalt bokmål, it is within the confines of current Bokmål ortography and vocabulary. Narssarssuaq (talk) 10:11, 19 September 2019 (UTC)
[citation needed] --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 12:00, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

OK. We understand the problem here. We're not going to directly revert for the moment: (1) We're still trying to find out how and when this was accomplished in the first place, so we're not even quite sure how to revert it if we wanted to. (2) It may or may not be appropriate to revert it in Wikipedia. It probably is not appropriate in other projects, and as far as what the impact would be anywhere on a page but the navigation pane, we're not even sure. So let's stop arguing the merits for the moment. If anyone knows when this happened and how, that would be useful information. StevenJ81 (talk) 16:17, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

The original change is [6] and it corrected the macrocode so it follows CLDR, BCP-47, ISO 639-1, etc. As the definition is common for several sites and projects it will have an rippeling effect to revert the change. Most projects use correct language code, and the only one (?) that abuse the no-code to mean “Norwegian Bokmål” is nowiki. There are several possible fixes for the link in the sidebar, without changing the language code, and I have implemented one as an extension (mw:Extension:LangCodeOverride). It was not much interested in the solution, so I put the solution in cold store. — Jeblad 18:08, 7 October 2019 (UTC)

Saraiki WikipediaEdit

@StevenJ81:, @Amire80:, Lang Com: is requested to contact linguists for the verification of Saraiki language.

1. Saraiki has ISO 639-3 valid code skr.
2 Saraiki is language in the census of Pakistan.
3. Saraiki is a school, college, and University subject.
4. Saraiki is taught from primary to Ph.D level.
5. Saraiki has TV channels.
6. Govt: of Pakistan has made website in Saraiki also.
7. Saraiki is recognized language by Govt: of Pakistan.
8. Awards are awarded by Govt: of Pakistan in Saraiki languages books in addition to Punjabi language.
9. Saraiki news and programs are presented on Public and Private Radio in Saraiki also.
10. Saraiki language Dictionaries are also available since 1881 A.D. An online is this
11. Saraiki has its own Grammar, Idioms, Proverbs, alphabets, and Tenses.
12. Saraiki translations of Bible and Quran are also available.
13. All above things are available for Pakistani Western Punjabi as well as Saraiki also.
14. Saraiki is also language of WordPress. see
Sraiki 13:11, 13 November 2019 (UTC)

The main problem is that we need an Iranian PhD to verify this test project as really writting in Saraiki, Before that, this request can't be simply approved. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 14:08, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
No, that's done. We're currently hung up on the question of whether it is different enough from Western Punjabi. StevenJ81 (talk) 23:42, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
@StevenJ81:، kindly solve this issue at earliest as this project is too late. kindly present this to lang com: please. Sraiki 09:43, 15 November 2019 (UTC)

@StevenJ81:, @Amire80:, @Liuxinyu970226:, @Jon Harald Søby:, @Satdeep Gill:, @GerardM:

Saraiki Vs. Western Punjabi

Wiktionary Bikol SentralEdit

Hi! Good day! I would like to ask what are the requirements still needed to be done to for the approval of the project Bikol Wiktionary (Wt/bcl). Thank you! - Dang Brazal (Talk) 03:52, 28 November 2019 (UTC)

@Jon Harald Søby: ^^ --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 01:43, 3 December 2019 (UTC)

2 requests for wv submitted on NovEdit

Wikiversity Punjabi began in March 2016 on betawv, and now has 800 pages(including categories, templates, other namespaces). Therefore, it is believed that this request can be changed to eligible. Wikiversity Indonesian has one page(Main page), so I think we'll have to wait for their activities. --Sotiale (talk) 07:30, 1 December 2019 (UTC)

Kotava WikipediaEdit

@Jon Harald Søby, @James Heilman

The WP:Kotava project was launched in the Incubator more than two years ago. There has been regular and significant activity for over last twelve months, with about 10-12 active contributors each month. To date, it has 5469 articles (see Catanalysis) , making it the most dynamic and consistent project of all projects in the Incubator. And to quote his main administrator: This project is actually one of the best, highest-quality, most serious projects I have seen in my three years [...] as a sysop on Incubator.

The project meets all the requirements of the policy, and we have patiently fulfilled all the conditions and respected the procedures defined by the Langcom.

A discussion on the public mailing-list sept- nov- was launched on September 26th for its final approval. Three members of Langcom spoke explicitly for, and none of the titular members expressed opposition. I personally responded, through the members who answered me, to the legitimate questions raised in the discussion.

At a time, I was even asked to validate the namespaces of the project, which I did willingly and without delay.

But since then, nothing! It has been more than two months since nothing came of it, even though six other projects, much less advanced, were validated at the same time, and some after short and formal discussions.

I perceive in this bogging a kind of disdain that does not say its name, even a contempt for the kotavusik community which, even if it is small and does not meet the codes of pseudo-specialists in constructed languages, reveals its involvement, its linguistic mastery and its ability to produce quality encyclopedic work.

I'm asking for things to be unlocked. And if there is a surreptitious problem in the functioning of Langcom, at least the Wikimedia board is informed.

Personally, I am ready to make further and further clarifications (although I have the feeling that everything has already been said and produced on several occasions) that the full members of Langcom may wish.

Regards. Axel xadolik (talk) 18:44, 3 December 2019 (UTC) (test administrator of WP Kotava project)

"disdain that does not say its name"? Is that a reference to "w:The love that dare not speak its name"? It seems like a poorly chosen phrase.
Yes, obscure conlangs are hard sells, for reason that can be well-explained, and don't deserve such sarcasm.--Prosfilaes (talk) 11:09, 4 December 2019 (UTC)
@Axel xadolik: Are you really from langcom? If not, please do not use clauses like "Notification about proposed approval of", but "Request for approval of Kotava..." instead. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 06:02, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
Hello. The topic is still under discussion in Langcom. --MF-W 19:42, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
Hello @Jon Harald Søby, @James Heilman, @MF-Warburg:
Where is this discussion? Nothing seems to have changed... the silence that is reserved for the reprobate people, the unworthy... but unworthy of what?
Today, the project has 6003 articles (ie more than many official WP, it would even be in 170th place, out of 309), and once again more than 10 active contributors this month. Regards. Axel xadolik (talk) 15:32, 26 December 2019 (UTC)
I am sure that MF-W will let use know. Ping me in a couple of weeks if you still do not hear anything. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 11:45, 27 December 2019 (UTC)
@Doc James: Hello James, nothing is changed since your last message. So I'm asking you to intervene. Regards. Axel xadolik (talk) 13:52, 9 January 2020 (UTC)

Wikinews IndonesianEdit

This Wikinews has been active again after a few months ago is not active and there are several contributors who actively on this Wikinews. So, I request that this Wikinews be approved. Regards! Sonic Speedy (talk) 09:20, 5 December 2019 (UTC)

Hello. This and last month you are the only contributor. This month is the first one since 2013 in which the number of edits exceeded 10. So the project is not yet ready for approval. --MF-W 19:43, 5 December 2019 (UTC)

Essay about new Arabic (non-ar) project openings?Edit

Let me repeat the request for an essay arguing against the opening of new Arabic projects not in Standard Arabic, hopefully in lieu of a wave of one sentence objections on every such request.

(I'll note I'm not a fan of the idea. Most of the accusations could go against any new language; if a language doesn't currently have a Wikipedia, then it's not a language of science or academia, and Internet users who speak that language are also fluent in a language that currently has a Wikipedia. I mean, if someone speaks no language that has a Wikipedia, there's basically no content on the web. That people in a major language don't want a Wikipedia in a minor language often considered a dialect of that language doesn't particularly seem relevant.)--Prosfilaes (talk) 11:45, 14 December 2019 (UTC)

Please start allowing ancient languagesEdit

In the page Language proposal policy it’s written: “Only Wikisource wikis in ancient or historical languages are accepted, because resources in such languages continue to be important to the world, even in the absence of native, living speakers of those languages. Where possible, such languages should be bundled with the modern equivalent Wikisource project (such as Old English with English), though that is not required.” There is already a Wikipedia in latin, and a Wikipedia in Old English, which are not very small. In my opinion, ancient languages should be allowed for all Wikipedia projects, however with stricter policies to make sure there is a large enough community to expand those wikis. Best regards, Dino Bronto Rex (talk) 14:45, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

May I request Pa'o languageEdit

Pa'o are the large ethnic people,the 5th largest population in Myanmar, small number in Laos, Thailand.They have own language. But can't write and read in browser, wiki and other. So, I want to add our language. What should I do? Help me please Khun Yum Htun (talk) 04:08, 4 January 2020 (UTC)

Where can I do?

Khun Yum Htun (talk) 04:19, 4 January 2020 (UTC)
@Khun Yum Htun: You can start a new Wikipedia test project for Pa'O language at Wikimedia Incubator. The manual can be found at here and language code (ISO 639-3) for Pa'O language is blk. Please feel free to contact me if you have any question or difficulties. NinjaStrikers «» 09:57, 6 January 2020 (UTC)

Khakas Wikipedia. Хакасская википедия.Edit

Hello, I want to ask about the Khakass Wikipedia. It already contains more than 1000 articles, and is well developed. I believe that it is time to transfer it from the incubator to public access, at its URL. Здравствуйте, я хочу спросить о хакасской википедии. Она уже содержит более 1000 статей, и хорошо развивается. Я считаю что пора перенести ее из инкубатора в открытый доступ, на собственный URL. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Дмитрий Аланов (talk) 2020-01-04 07:17

@Amire80: Can this be approved? --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 10:11, 9 January 2020 (UTC)

Proposals for closing projects/Closure of Nehiyaw WikipediaEdit

Shall we reopen it? The closed-it user isn't a member of langcom, and wrongly pointed the proposer as "LTA" without any evidences. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 11:26, 9 January 2020 (UTC)

@Liuxinyu970226: I'VE reopened it, I agree that that user has lack of evidences for LTA claim, though I have no time to discuss the real metter. -- 02:47, 12 January 2020 (UTC)
FYI proposer is locked as LTA. ‐‐1997kB (talk) 02:52, 12 January 2020 (UTC)

Regarding giving self-URL to Awadhi incubatorEdit

The Awadhi incubator is quite active and a total of 3374 pages have been created on it so far. Please be pleased to give it the actual URL, which will speed up the development of its encyclopedia.

Return to "Language committee" page.