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Notifications from Langcom about proposed approvals edit

Notification about proposed approval of Malay Wikisource edit

Tracked in Phabricator:
Task T363039

The language committee intends to approve Requests for new languages/Wikisource Malay . If you have any objections to that based on the language proposal policy, please tell us here on this page in the next 7 days. Meanwhile, the community is asked to check (and if necessary, complete) the wiki settings as indicated on the request page. Thank you. --MF-W 09:45, 18 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

Hi, I have some consideration about the language code. Back when ms.wikipedia was made (26 October 2002), the language code ms (639-1) was different from the language code ms (639-3:msa) today. At that time, ms was considered single language, but now, it has been designated as macro language. In the request page (permalink), the link provided is SIL:msa, while the Glottolog link msa is incorrect and should have been stan1306. If this ms.wikisource is created, then it means all documents from thirty-six individual language in 3 different countries are eligible to be hosted there, including Indonesian language documents, which has already own its own Wikisource (s:id:), and several projects that wishes their own Wikisource, such as min, and several Malay-macrolanguage projects with their own code, such as Minang and Banjar (min: and bjn:). If this is what the community wanted, then I think it's fine to proceed.
But if they only want to host documents in en:Standard Malay, or Malaysian Malay, then I don't agree that we continue using "ms", but rather "zsm" for Standard Malay (SIL:zsm, Glottolog:zsm/stan1306), or "zlm" for Malay (individual language) (SIL:zlm, Glottolog:zlm/mala1479).
Also see other projects that fall under Category:Malay, which includes many individual languages (and language codes) Bennylin 11:35, 18 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
Thanks for raising this issue. I think for consistency's sake, we would continue to use "ms" for the subdomain, even though it's intended to be a project for "zsm", just like mswiki is a zsm project. See Special_language_codes#Other_distinctions. When (if) project domain renaming finally becomes available, a rename should be considered. --MF-W 11:49, 18 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
Yup. I was looking for that section that I wrote previously. If consistency is what's being sought for instead of doing the correct thing, then I rest my case. Bennylin 11:58, 18 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Bennylin Actually, there are also some users (e.g. C933103, see here) who treat Indonesian and Malay are same language but separately named due to political issues. Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 00:35, 26 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
If this project is approved under ms.ws language code, would that means other languages in this macrolanguage (such as min.ws, and future bjn.ws) doesn't have a chance to be approved in the future? I don't want to see this to become the reason that the Minang and Banjar communities could not have their own Wikisources in the future. Bennylin 13:53, 18 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
I see no reason why this would prevent those projects. -- MF-W 13:56, 18 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

I object approving the Malay Wikisource using ms, for reasons explained by Bennylin above. The committee has the opportunity now to set a correct standard for Wikimedia projects that are using Malaysian Malay, and not just following consistency for consistency's sake. There is no reason we should stick with the outdated convention and pass the buck into the future while project renaming is still technically not possible; it would be much better to do it now, when we have a chance. I would support its creation under zsm subdomain. Best, dwadieff 12:25, 18 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Bennylin and David Wadie Fisher-Freberg: (and MF-Warburg),
Thanks a lot for this comment. It raises interesting questions. Since Wikisources mainly transcribe old document as they were (ie. in the orthograph of the time), so I'm guessing a wider code is a good thing (for instance French Wikisource, includes "modern" French but also Middle and Old French, frm and fro as well as dialects and other close languages ; like Walloon or Occitan before they were moved to their own domains ; same for all other Wikisources).
Looking at the incubation, there is a lot of various document ranging from 1371 to 1987 and in various scripts, I'm not sure what exactly is covered by the code "zsm" (or "zlm") but it doesn't really feel appropriate. And it doesn't look like « they only want to host documents in en:Standard Malay ». The best way to know what the community want is to ask them, so I'm pinging top-editors @Helang putih, Hadithfajri, Aviator, Lim Natee, and PeaceSeekers: for clarification.
The situation is also very different from a Wikipedia, which means that consistency with Wikipedia doesn't really make sense (which goes either way about taking the same code or not).
Cheers, VIGNERON * discut. 13:19, 18 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
This particular macrolanguage is used in multiple countries (Malaysia, Singapore, Indonesia, Brunei, among others). Then my question for the founding fathers of this project is: does the documents from other countries other than the apparent Malaysia (Malaysian Malay) should/could be included there. For example: documents in Singaporean Malay and Brunei Malay (which has close historical ties with Malaysia). Exclusive for Malaysian Malay (which then, I propose to rename it to zsm), or all-inclusive Malay (which then, probably ms is fine)? For now we can assume that the Malay documents used in what-is-now-Indonesia could be transcribed into Indonesian Wikisource, and Minang documents written in Malay into Minang Wikisource in Incubator.
FWIW, for context, the current scheme of language code ms (WP, WB, Wikt) is not without friction. The fact that many non-Malaysian Malay speakers are unable to contribute there due to the restriction of using Standard (Malaysian) Malay, made the project name incorrect and ought to be revised. But that's for another discussion.
Also, I'm in support of the creation of "Malay Wikisource". I'm only discussing the correct language code. Bennylin 13:39, 18 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
I'll discuss this based on my observation in the mswiki community. In the last few years, awareness of the inclusion of Bruneian and Singaporean Malay versions within our system (mswiki) has increased and become more accepted, whilst the policy of "Indonesian variants go to idwiki" pretty much holds; this thing is pretty much a drama in its own few years ago, and I'm not into this too much, but this is as far as what I can say.
For me, it's good to just stick to "ms" code. Whilst many of our works and the community is indeed from Malaysia, the idea of using "Malaysian" Malay (zsm) [and especially in reference to the modern standard version] seems quite restrictive. In fact, as we're starting to look upon to communities outside Malaysia today (e.g., Singapore during Wikimania 2023, and recently, in Medan), it's good for us to reflect our visions on that. PeaceSeekers (talk) 14:50, 18 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
As one of the proposer to hatch the incubator, i will agree to make it as ms cause most of the document is spread from different kind of era and i think this will be wise for now. Not like Malay Wikipedia that needs to follow the strict guideline for standard Malay, i don't think that malay wikisource will have that problem. On another side, we also have precedent for French wikisource that include all document in france from different era and i think doesn't have a big conflict. The concern also about the fear that minangkabau won't have their own wikisource will be negated cause i think that they already have enough text to be let out from their incubator if they have enough contributor, but it's in another discussion. Agus Damanik (talk) 18:53, 18 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
But, if it's the worst case that we use three letter's code. I will prefere ZLM, rather than ZSM to maintain clarity that it's malay not standard malay Agus Damanik (talk) 18:55, 18 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
As one of the proposer to hatch the incubator and contributors to Malay Wikisource. I want to convey that the manuscripts in Malay Wikisource are not only from Malaysia but also from Indonesia, Singapore, and Brunei. This is because we know that Malay manuscripts are not like manuscripts from other regions, which can be easily classified. Examples of Malay manuscripts in Indonesia written in Roman script will be included in id.wikisource.org, while those in Malay Arabic script will be considered to belong to Malay Wikisource. Is this difference also a problem? Because Malay manuscripts are quite widespread in the Nusantara (Southeast Asia). And we know that many Malay manuscripts also come from Indonesia. As an Indonesian who speaks Malay, I disagree with the notion that it is difficult for us to contribute to mswiki. In fact, with this standardization, we can better understand each other. But, can't we use our own dialect of Malay in the mswiki project? Of course, we can. But, for me, there is actually no problem with which language code to use. However, the problem arises: can we include manuscripts that should be in Malay Wikisource as well (Can manuscripts in Malay language above the year 1945 be included in Malay Wikisource? (especially those that are clearly Malay manuscript) "Both in Roman and Arabic Malay script")
Here are some lists of the manuscripts.
Indonesia
https://wikisource.org/w/index.php?title=File:Boekoe_Liatkok,_hikaijat_radjah_Negrie_Tjinah.pdf&page=6
https://wikisource.org/w/index.php?title=File:Bustan_al-Katibin_li_as-Shibyan_al-Mutaallimin.pdf&page=7
https://wikisource.org/w/index.php?title=File:Ikhtisar_Ceritera_Daripada_Raja-raja_di_Negeri_Siam_Or._2011.pdf&page=3
https://wikisource.org/w/index.php?title=File:Turjuman_al-Mustafid.pdf&page=5
Brunei
https://wikisource.org/wiki/Pemashhoran_Kemerdekaan_Negara_Brunei_Darussalam
Singapura
https://wikisource.org/w/index.php?title=File:Sesuatu_yang_disebutkan_di_dalam_Quran_darihal_kitab_Injil_dan_Taurat.pdf&page=25
So, for me, any language code used is fine. However, if choosing one language code could hinder us. For me, it's good to just stick to "ms" code.
But, if it's the worst case that we use three letter's code. I agree with Agus Damanik prefer ZLM, rather than ZSM to maintain clarity that it's malay not standard malay.

Lim Natee (talk) 19:04, 18 March 2024 (UTC)Reply


As far as I see it, it seems like test-wiki contributors agree that a project with the language codems.wikisource would be inclusive of all Malay variants, so that the code can be used both in order to be more inclusive and to stay consistent with existing projects. Am I understanding this correctly? --MF-W 12:01, 9 April 2024 (UTC)Reply

I think most of them agree like that. Agus Damanik (talk) 19:03, 9 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
Given this, I will go ahead and request the creation of the wiki. -- MF-W 07:41, 20 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
  This section is resolved and can be archived. If you disagree, replace this template with your comment. MF-W 07:44, 20 April 2024 (UTC)Reply

Notification about proposed approval of Georgian Wikisource edit

The language committee intends to approve Requests for new languages/Wikisource Georgian. If you have any objections to that based on the language proposal policy, please tell us here on this page in the next 7 days. Meanwhile, the community is asked to check (and if necessary, complete) the wiki settings as indicated on the request page. Thank you. --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 17:19, 11 April 2024 (UTC)Reply

Thanks Amir! – Mehman 21:20, 11 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
Users just verified themselves as eligible here, atleast one of the member of the community raised this concern here. --ꠢꠣꠍꠘ ꠞꠣꠎꠣ (talk) 03:36, 20 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
That was in 2009, it has no relevance for this. -- MF-W 07:40, 20 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
  This section is resolved and can be archived. If you disagree, replace this template with your comment. MF-W 09:35, 22 April 2024 (UTC)Reply

Discussions edit

Approval Request for Arbëresh Wikipedia (Wp/aae) edit

Dear Language committee,

As the Arbëresh Wikipedia administrator, I kindly request an approval of our project. We contributed regularly since March 2022 and at the moment we have 325 articles (including the 100 most important ones).

These last 10 months we were simultaneously occupied with a Wikitongues project for which we received a grant. We created a card game with 50 word cards for children, which we linked via QR codes to their respective Wikipedia articles using this link type: aae.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARTICLE_NAME. But since our project is not live yet, the links do not work. So in order to distribute the cards and promote the Arbëresh Wikipedia in the villages, we need an approved project (or at least working links).

I am happy to discuss details and questions. Best! Ftillimi (talk) 15:17, 26 February 2024 (UTC)Reply

Hi, thank you for your efforts. I have looked into your project and there is not enough activity yet, and I have doubts about the sustainability of the community. For example, in January, you are the only one who has had enough activity. Therefore, I hope that your community shows enough activity and sustainability. Thanks! --Sotiale (talk) 03:34, 27 February 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Ftillimi and Sotiale: Anyway, the eligibility of Arbëresh is also a question to be resolved, as it is one member of macrolanguage Albanian (check here if doubt). Is there any reason a separate project shall be created instead of directly contributing at sq.wikipedia? Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 00:12, 4 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Liuxinyu970226 Albanian and Arbëresh have a low degree of mutual intelligibility. Arbëresh has a language code and the community wants a Wikipedia. There is no "question" to be resolved.
@Sotiale Can you give us please a quantity of articles that would satisfy the condition to call us active? We spent a lot of time aswell to translate the interface to Arbëresh, that's why on the statistics we show up as less active. Ftillimi (talk) 17:24, 18 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
Although it is not possible to speak about any fixed standards, the standard generally considered is that sustainability can be proven by having 3 or more editors working for more than a few months, and the amount of pages can also be considered along with sustainability. Currently, your project is almost entirely yours alone and sometimes disconnected. For this reason, it was evaluated as having low sustainability. Recently approved projects involve 3 or more people working for nearly 6 months, or even in those situations, they exceed 1000 pages. This would be a very sufficient standard for approval, exceeding the minimum standard. --Sotiale (talk) 06:20, 19 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Ftillimi And, how do you explain Fenikals' objection on your RFL page that "Albanian diaspora dialect, not a separate language"? Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 00:49, 25 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
Does it need an explanation? Arbëresh is included in the Albanian macrolanguage. Surely the assumption is that the separation at the language level is correct unless there's real evidence otherwise.--Prosfilaes (talk) 20:35, 25 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Prosfilaes If this is true, then why are you supporting Arabic dialects for having their own Wikipedias? Why can't they just contribute just one Arabic Wikipedia? And at same time, why are you opposing Low German dialects for having too? Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 00:28, 26 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
Huh? Arbëresh is considered an independent language in ISO-639, just like the various Arabic languages. You'd have to link to the request for the Low German dialect in question but apparently I thought there was enough evidence it wasn't distinct. In Arbëresh's case, the fact that there was separation starting 500 years ago (as per the Wikipedia page) makes a claim that it's a separate language seem very reasonable.--Prosfilaes (talk) 14:55, 26 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Prosfilaes Then what's the purpose of ar:? A fake website just typed some Arabic letters? Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 03:53, 27 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Liuxinyu970226 The project ar.wikipedia.org is actually using the language with the 3-letter code 'arb', which is known as Modern Standard Arabic, or Fusha. 'ar' is a macro language, covering a group of languages including 'arb' as well as all the other variants such as 'apc' (Levantine Arabic) and 'arz' (Egyptian Arabic), etc... I think it was a mistake to allow the projects use macro-language codes, but it is too late to fix it. TheJoyfulTentmaker (talk) 02:45, 28 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

Request for verification of Sylheti Wikivoyage edit

Dear Language Committee members, requesting verification of Incubator:Wy/syl (Sylheti Wikivoyage). There is a common misunderstanding among those unfamiliar with the process who mistakenly believe that this project is not open for contributions. It is one of the most active Wikivoyage project of the Wikimedia Incubator, currently featured on the main page. Requesting verification and we hope soon we will see the project on its own domain (https://syl.wikivoyage.org) based on its own merit.--ꠢꠣꠍꠘ ꠞꠣꠎꠣ (talk) 04:24, 2 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

Hello! Could you explain who is of the mistaken belief "that this project is not open for contributions"? --MF-W 09:44, 18 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
In Wikimedia, there are many users who are not familiar with the Incubator. A few months ago, one of our community members asked where to start a new Wiki project in a different project. The process is not very smooth. In the Sylheti Wikivoyage's history, we have many registered users but not many unregistered users. Generally, if the verification step is unnecessary and Langcom members are reluctant to perform it, I propose its removal from the proposal template. If it remains, it's better to clarify it so that users unfamiliar with Wikimedia Incubator, LPP, and new language projects do not become confused. —ꠢꠣꠍꠘ ꠞꠣꠎꠣ (talk) 02:30, 20 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
Bump to prevent archival. * Pppery * it has begun 20:02, 20 April 2024 (UTC)Reply

Approval Request for Mooré Wikipedia edit

Hello,

I wish to follow up on the approval request for Mooré Wikipedia, which was submitted on July 12, 2023. Here is the request page:Requests for new languages/Wikipedia Mooré. Please let me know if you have questions. Shahadusadik (talk) 12:56, 13 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

Hello Shahadusadik, I believe it will be approved if there are no language issues. Regarding this language, can you recommend any linguists or experts who are not involved in your incubator project? Please send me an email with their affiliation, email address, and name; not here or public wiki pages. Thanks! --MF-W 09:49, 18 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
Email sent! Thanks Shahadusadik (talk) 23:28, 18 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
If Langcom approves this, please do take note of my comments at Requests for new languages/Wikipedia Mooré#Comments about the interwiki conflicting with a pseudo-namespace on the English Wikipedia. * Pppery * it has begun 02:50, 19 March 2024 (UTC)Reply
Yes. I saw that. What will be the way forward? Should spark a discussion about this on telegram? Shahadusadik (talk) 21:57, 3 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
I think this is a problem for developers/sysadmins to solve. We (Langcom) will simply request the wiki to be created. Pseudo-namespaces have been "removed" in the past when they conflicted with a new language code. --MF-W 22:23, 3 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
None as popular as this one, though. Whatever. I'll make my case on Phabricator when the wiki actually is about to be approved. * Pppery * it has begun 23:21, 3 April 2024 (UTC)Reply

Request for Wikipedia Mandailing edit

Hello, I'm requesting approval for Wikipedia Mandailing. The project already has close to 2000 pages, and has been the past 7+ months. Thank you. Bennylin 11:12, 18 March 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Bennylin: Hi, Bennylin. There is something I would like to ask of you to facilitate the approval processes. Regarding this language, can you recommend any linguists or experts who are not involved in Mandailing incubator project? Please send me an email with their affiliation, email address, and name; not here or public wiki pages. --Sotiale (talk) 12:27, 1 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
what for? didn't you guys already contacted linguist or something for Wiktionary Mandailing's approval? This is not the first Wikimedia project in Mandailing Bennylin 13:26, 1 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
I will ask someone first. He's considered an expert on Mandailing, and afaik he's not a contributor yet. What's the process to recommend someone? Do I send you an email or something? Bennylin 03:33, 2 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Bennylin: Ah, I was mistaken. I didn't remember if this wikt was approved first. Then there is no need for a separate recommendation process. --Sotiale (talk) 10:44, 2 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
So many things came at me at once that I mistook it for another project. I appreciate your efforts for finding the expert. --Sotiale (talk) 10:48, 2 April 2024 (UTC)Reply

Consider revoking the "verified as eligible" status for these two requests? edit

By reviewing their deletion requests, there are probably some good reasons that the eligibility of both requests are being contested, both are having scowiki-like faux articles before deleted, having fake grammars and cited with unreliable sources, of which some sources are from fraud sites. There are also off-wiki points that both eligibility status are granted by bribes, although I can't see if there are enough evidences to support. Based on the above situations, I'm afraid that both eligibilities shall be re-contested as both are re-controversial now. Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 03:39, 1 April 2024 (UTC)Reply

"verified as eligible" means that the language is theoretically eligible to get a project if the test wiki is developed enough. It has nothing to do with the content of the test wiki. And at least for Ter Sami the bribery accusation is clearly bogus - looking at SJ81's edits and mails on the langcom list from around that time reveals they were going through all old requests and processing them. Votic is long enough ago that the records aren't publicly available, but I suspect its bogus too. * Pppery * it has begun 04:15, 1 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Pppery Let @Yupik: tell you why that status is in wrong position:
Ter Sami has only 2 L1 speakers as per Ethnologue's survey, and many Incubator contributors confirmed that Tamara Ustinova, one of the former "active contributors" of both projects, isn't one, but rather another pro-scowiki behavior maker. Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 04:28, 1 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
It doesn't really matter if the eligibility is removed or not. I asked Yupik on that Incubator deletion request about maybe starting a Langcom discussion (for one of the languages), but she hasn't done so. With page creation on Incubator being prevented, the risk of a new Wikipedia with questionable content being created is zero. And what's this nonsense about "granted by bribes"? Do you really think my comment on the Votic request "The language is eligible; for the approval it will be necessary to prove that the content on Incubator is written in true Votic, of course." was bought? It seems like the cheque never arrived. I hope you can badger the bribers for me about it. --MF-W 09:37, 1 April 2024 (UTC)Reply

About approval of central Kanuri Wikipedia edit

It's been a while since we made a request on meta, we have been active since then, creating and editing articles we have answered questions about the varieties of the kanuri, but we are yet to get any proper response from the Langcom. so what's the future of the central Kanuri Wikipedia? MohammedBama123 (talk) 22:09, 4 April 2024 (UTC)Reply

Request for Chinook Jargon (chinuk wawa) Wikipedia edit

On the Chinook Jargon Wikipedia (incubator:Wp/chn) We have three active users, 216 articles that are overall bigger and beefier than the articles on most other incubating wikis (a little over a kilobyte on average). Chinook Jargon Wikipedia also has hundreds of edits per month, functional location map templates, a fancy main page, a partially translated interface, a user guide, a degree of quality control, and a fair amount of recognition on Facebook. Chinook Jargon Wikipedia was previously listed as an eligible test wiki, back in 2018.

A decently-sized community of people are trying to bring this 19th-century trade language of the Pacific Northwest back to life, and I'm here to do my part! (See the language's official MetaWiki request page.) POSSUM chowg   (talk) 20:50, 6 April 2024 (UTC)Reply

@POSSUM chowg I'm afraid that your post isn't actual seriously, before March, you seems like one of the only two active users for just two months (the another is Jon Gua as I've checked) (fully inactive before this year, for about 2 years), also as per Ethnologue:
Do we have ideas why such language status can also get eligibile status? Maybe this issue above also affects this request? Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 02:01, 7 April 2024 (UTC)Reply
I never knew that a wiki had to have at least three active users for a certain period of time. Yes, we have only had three active users for the past month, I had thought that that was enough...
So anyway, as a pidgin, even in its heyday back in the 1800's, there were very few L1 speakers... | See this discussion on the chinookjargon.com website, including a word or two from Haruo, the very first editor of CJ Wikipedia POSSUM chowg   (talk) 02:05, 7 April 2024 (UTC)Reply

Approval request for Czech Wikivoyage edit

Dear Language Committee, I'm requesting approval for Czech Wikivoyage. Czech Wikivoyage is the last missing Wikimedia project in the Czech language, so the Czech language and the Czech community is generally very active. In the past year, a stable active Wikivoyage community has formed. Now it is active every month. We kindly request your review of this project and hope that the Committee can approve it soon. LiMr (talk) 19:03, 18 April 2024 (UTC)Reply

Request for verification of Sylheti Wikibooks edit

Dear Language Committee members, requesting verification of Wb/syl (Sylheti Wikibooks). I believe there should be a basic verification process after each proposal. This would demonstrate Langcom’s acknowledgment of the proposal’s validity and provide an avenue for feedback. Unfortunately, there has been a lack of Langcom members performing these verification checks since User:StevenJ81. Additionally, a project has been featured in the Wikimedia Incubator for over six months, meeting both basic verification requirements and the criteria for its own domain. Out of numerous Wikibook projects, this is the sole active project here. I kindly request verification and initiation of a Langcom discussion for consideration of the project. --ꠢꠣꠍꠘ ꠞꠣꠎꠣ (talk) 01:19, 19 April 2024 (UTC)Reply

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