Today, the Croatian Minister of Education has issued a statement in which he advises all of the pupils and students to favor Wikipedia in English and other major languages, and not in Croatian, due to the fact that Croatian Wikipedia distorts facts and contains forgeries. Croatian Wikipedia has today placed a site-wide notice Službeno i javno opovrgavanje novinarskog žutila Jutarnjeg lista which translates as "Official and public refutation of yellow journalism by Jutarnji list". Jutarnji list is one of the major newspapers in Croatia (the second or third by circulation figures), and calling it yellow journalism, as well as pretending to be making "official" statements in the name of Foundation seems to me like a pretty extreme violation of NPOV as well as misguiding of general public. The content of "refutation" makes abundant use of apologetic victimhood vocabulary, shifting the blame on politicians, ex-Yugoslav secret service, calling the Jutarnji list's article slanderous and "disgusting nonsense", and claims to have been sent to several state agencies - which possibly opens up a legal front that I'm not sure the Foundation wants itself involve in.
Now, we all know that all those Balkans wikipedias are problematic because they are perceived by many respective editors not as a "Wikipedia in [the language] X" but as "X national wikipedia", with them serving as messiahs destined to preserve the core national "truths" from the interference of "others" (where others=Serbs, Macedonians, Albanians, Turks, Croats etc., every nation has its favorite nemesis), and that many biased content creeps into articles dealing with historical and cultural topics...but with this disturbing statement from the official of Croatian government (Minister of Education, no less), I think we're hitting a new low.
Additionally, there is also "Serbo-Croatian Wikipedia", and I've noticed that most of the recent new contributors are in fact former Croatian wikipedia editors, who have been blocked under some silly and absurd pretense, after they fell out of favor with the hardline nationalist clique of admins. This is IMHO the most serious issue with Croatian wiki - that over the years dozens of prolific good contributors have been blocked and harassed out of editing, simply because they are liberal-minded and haven't been brainwashed to be "proper little Croats". This scandal is merely a large-scale reflection of that policy.
Since I don't see how this could possibly be solved locally, I hereby invite interested parties to comment on this matter. Comments from editors from other ex-yu wikipedias are particularly welcome. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 19:33, 13 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Hello. I'm an "occasional" member of the Croatian Wikipedia, and I believe English Wikipedia has much better articles, because of the NPOV and the NOR. If you visit the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:No_original_research you can actually see there is no "Hrvatski" (Croatian) page, and that is why a lot of Croatian users add their content regardless of the sources or the credibility of the things they write. But back to the topic, it is true that most administrators on the Croatian wikipedia feel very nationalist and right-leaning. I, for example, as I went to a language gymnasium, felt that merging the Croatian language with Serbian on Wiktionary into Serbo-Croatian because of their similarities wasn't exactly fair, because I know a lot of differences between the two, so I may have seemed right-leaning and nationalist, but really, I'm not. I honestly respect other people's opinions and will strive to change if what they say follows the idea of freedom and equality for everyone. I'm liberal and I believe Croatian wikipedia should show both sides of the coin equally. Now, I can't speak for the articles about WWII, even though I've heard the lies about how many victims dies in Jasenovac in the article of the same name and also how the fascist (basically Nazi) regime was actually fair to all, et cetera, but I can speak for the LGBT articles. For example, when I read the article U ime obitelji on Croatian Wikipedia, (U ime obitelji being a anti-LGBT organisation which organised a referendum to declare 'marriage' a union between a man and a woman) which was blatantly anti-LGBT, I edited it to sound more equal and fair to everyone. My edits were quickly reverted, and when I tried reverting them, they were reverted several times. After a while, I gave up (as most of dedicated liberal users on the Wiki probably already did), because it was obvious the administrators wouldn't do anything to stop this user from reverting my edits to the original version which was bashing against the LGBT population (I think on the page about homosexuality it says that many scientists claim it's a disease or something like that.) I know I've been rambling a lot, but I've been really hurt because, even though I may be an idealist, I truly believe that peace between people is possible and something to strive for, but not on a Wikipedia which discriminizes against anyone with other POV except for the extreme right-wing one. --Tvrtko26 (talk) 21:29, 13 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Štambuk has spoken about site-wide notice, but he has not told one little detail of this notice which is saying:
"Croatian wikipedia administrators are not guilty for something written on croatian wikipedia"
This is truth under Wikipedia:General disclaimer rules, but on other side like administrator on sh wikipedia I feel moral responsibility that there is not too much "mistakes" on "my" wikipedia about anything (you can't remove all mistakes).
Defense of croatian wikipedia administrators only shows that they do not feel guilt or even simple responsibility for situation on croatian wikipedia. This is reason enough for removal of all croatian administrators sysop rights.
Only for information:"I am not NPOV in this question, because I have been 2 time warned to stop write propaganda on talk pages and then blocked for 6 months because of propaganda !?"--Rjecina2 (talk) 22:46, 13 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I am not a Croat, but I'm feeling obligated to say something. I'm longtime sysop from neighboring Serbian and Serbo-Croatian Wikipedias. While I am aware that making of completely unbiased encyclopedia is Sisyphean task, and as someone who all this year was trying to remove bias and errors out of sr.wiki (and I earned few sworn enemies due to that), I'm double angered with deterioration of state of hr.wiki. This RFC is just another episode in series affairs regarding hr.wiki, some even appeared here on Meta. I lost all faith in hr.wiki sysops after this episode, when they remained silent after serious abuse of sysop rights. Then came harrasing one of the most skilled hr.sysop. Aftermath of this case was promotion to sysops of users with lack knowledge and interests in technical stuff, but they were devoted to winning side. That was nail in cophin for NPOV. Next episode was one with English Wiktionary, when a hr.sysop gave interview hoping it will stop Ivan Štambuk's initiative. Closely related with this was another Rfc. Gradually, many editors left, so hr.wiki became even more safe heaven for wingnuts. They regularly mark anniversary of every event in past war, or Christmas and Easter in this way  (note that SpeedyGonsales sent copyrighted image of Easter Eggs that have Croatian checkerboard, uploading fair-use image of living persons is another issue they regularly do.). That is something that Serbian and Bosnian Wikipedias do not practice. Last straw was article Anti-fascism. Sysops did't allowed a user to edt the article which says that communists who fought against Hitler, Franco and Mussolini weren't true antifascists. (hr.wiki is like Conservapedia without creationism). After being aware of existence of FB group called Exposing shameful Croatian Wikipedia, one of first steps was calling for support from veterans of Croatian war for independence. Wth? Next step is making refutation that doesn't refute anything. Now we have that all active sysops (except user:Flopy who earlier raised his discontent) are united in view that they are true victims. -- Bojan Talk 02:07, 14 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Not to mention very recent SpeedyGonsales' biased attempt of editing article Croatian Wikipedia about this issue, where he used Wikipedia article for his personal political purpose, where he accused the other side of using "tactic... [like] comunistic regime". He tried to present the issue like an attack of communist-like regime (!?) to himself and other supposedly right-wing administrators, and while he denies of being biased or doing right-wing propaganda, by editing the article this way he actually proves what he is being accused of! By editing the article this way he brakes the rule of NPOV and propagates right-wing propaganda - he tries to make himself a victim of some fictitious communists or communist-like people. In which century and which country do current Croats live? Where does this guy see communists?! But this is expected, because when you are guilty, and you don't have valid counterarguments, playing the victim is the only to go. Marekich (talk) 05:04, 14 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I am not active user on hr.wiki. I am Serbian, and I mainly contribute on sr.wiki. But I would like to add that users that have word "serb", "serbian" or "srb" in their username are blocking because inappropriate user name. I am not sure about their rules on this wiki but it is obviously that that there is discrimination against Serbians (for example User:Soundwaweserb blocked indefinitely because inappropriate user name, but there is admin with user name User:Šokac what is also nationality (article Šokci on en wiki). I also agree that all Balkan Wikipedias have problems with NPOV, but admins should be that that are resolving problems, not push POV . Unfortunately on hr.wiki this is not case, and it have much worst standards that other regional wikipedias. --Јованвб (talk) 06:38, 14 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Are you serious? Discrimination against Serbians? Why don't you check Username policy and Block log before? Many users have been blocked because Username policy, and their usernames have nothing to do with Serbia, Serbs, etc...--MaGa (talk) 10:22, 14 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Do not avoiding the topic. Here are things going issueses in 2013 of the Croatian Wikipedia and abuse of administrator and other rights in the Croatian Wikipedia. --Kolega2357 (talk) 13:50, 15 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Kolega, I was answering to unfounded accusation, nothing else. Read three times (or more, if you need) before answering.--MaGa (talk) 08:21, 16 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Here is grounded everything here is true. All users who want to contribute constructively they abusing with administrator rights. --Kolega2357 (talk) 10:35, 16 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Says who? You? Vandal from here ? As anybody can see, you are Velimir Ivanovic , blocked on en.wiki  also. Come on, don't be ridiculous. --MaGa (talk) 11:59, 16 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
The author of series of articles (Goran Penić) has been previously found guilty and appologized to M.P. Thompson for slandering (see forced appology : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TtHEVNhsTQE , in Croatian, though but still clear. )
What do you man? You are a man who abuses by Wikipedia users should look at yourself. Where the edit of vandalism? You are started to defend the not-truth. --Kolega2357 (talk) 19:30, 16 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Shall we ask admins on Commons and on en.wiki? Give me a break, I do not want to waste my time with you.--MaGa (talk) 06:35, 17 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Don't play games with us. You have removed  section with your recognition that you are Velimir Ivanovic. That's so ridiculous and miserably.--MaGa (talk) 11:21, 17 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
This  is your credibility? Request for hiding edits on your user talk page that prove who you really are?--MaGa (talk) 08:55, 18 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Do not play the victim MaGa, you and other administrator no one here not believes. A lot of funny that you are playing here on a conspiracy that all administrators, victims of Yugoslav-communist conspiracy. Enough of inventing conspiracy theories on Wikipedia by some administrators Croatian Wikipedia. A man your age should not lie and act. --Kolega2357 (talk) 09:43, 18 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Don't make me laugh. I wrote who you really are and how reliable you are: blocked vandal at hr.wiki and blocked on en.wiki (Email harrassment, repeating the behaviour that got him blocked at sr:wp). Evidence exists. Grown up.--MaGa (talk) 10:44, 18 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
On the so-called Croatian Wikipedia has each and all a normal person vandal. Everyone here knows that there is an aversion of current events, the administrator of the Croatian Wikipedia. More and more users in Serbo-Croatian Wikipedia because you and some other administrators blocked permanently. Caused you so much anger and rage at the people themselves. Ask yourself if the fault is in you and not in others. --Kolega2357 (talk) 11:03, 18 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Jutarnji list has also other writers previously known for hoax such as invented interview of PM Ivo Sanader by deptuy editor Davor Butković 
EPH (owner of Jutarnji list has tax debt of 1.7 billion kunas  (which is cca 224 million EUR, 0.37% of Croatian GDP ) so it is clear their owner is trying to please current government and distract attention from other crucial problems of Croatia (economy, 18,6% unemployment, outside dept et. )
Summa summarum, writings of Jutarnji list is bunch of crap.--Anto (talk) 07:12, 14 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I don't see how any of this is relevant here. You seem to be thinking that "attacking the messenger" strategy will somehow invalidate the statements made by the Minister Jovanović and professor Kurelić, which have been reported by media outlets other than Jutarnji list (Novi list, and Index.hr, respectively). Jutarnji list was the one that broke the news to the general public, that's all. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 08:34, 14 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
To begin the first of the basic things they do not know the Croatian Wikipedia administrators, such as copyright, you can send a picture of a living person on Wikipedia under fair use, there is the IP address block, after the first vandalism, everyone wants to work on the Croatian Wikipedia and point out the errors administrators receive a yellow or red card to a football game. Administrators deliberately harassing all users not having caught the grace to them, abuse and violation of their rights in order to prove that they are always right and that is what they said. All more and more users leave the Croatian Wikipedia and exceed the Serbo-Croatian Wikipedia. Insult to his Wikipedia, other projects from pure whim, jealousy, frustration. --Kolega2357 (talk) 08:14, 14 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Wikipedia and like projects are always a work in progress and some of the rules and regulations need time to trickle down and for them to establish. What exact examples of fascism is there on the Croatian Wikipedia. Please list all articles that have a fascist slant, and let's debate this issue. This needs to be done on the hr.wikipedia.org project and Meta should be consulted as well when a problem can not be adequately resolved. Let's work on the list first and let's put this then to rest. Pointing fingers is not going to resolve this issue with cool heads. Vodomar (talk) 10:03, 14 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
The reason why I brought this up at Meta is because it cannot be solved locally. There are no editors left on Croatian Wikipedia that are not right-wingers, nationalists, pious Christians and voters of HDZ and HČSP parties [the right-wing parties]. It's impossible to provide objective, NPOV coverage of controversial issues because no one is presenting the other side of the coin. Articles such as w:hr:Istrijanstvo, w:hr:Detuđmanizacija, w:hr:Antifašizam that have been mentioned in the media smack of extremist right-wing perspective. Who is going to balance them out? Who is going to unblock dozens of editors that have been harassed and driven out over the years because of their liberal-minded worldview? Who is going to undo the site notice promoting the "refutation letter" feigning to be from the WMF, containing actionable statements (novinarsko žutilo, degutantne besmislice etc.), and sent to the State Prosecution (DORH)? You sure are not. Too much damage has been done, and after the statement of Minister it's high time to bring local issues to a wider scrutiny. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 11:01, 14 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Are you going to do the same with Serbian wiki open a page and examine their possible fascist and biased articles? Here's some pointers.--Rovoobo (talk) 11:27, 14 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
You are free to open a separate RfC for unsolvable article issues on Serbian Wikipedia. From my relatively brief interaction with Serbian editors (mostly on English-speaking projects), they are generally much less radical than their Croatian counterparts, and I'm sure that any objections that you have on individual articles will be duly noted on the talk pages. In fact, the reaction on their local community discussion board on this media fiasco of Croatian Wikipedia was mostly along the lines "We know we have some bad apples of our own, but thank god we're not extreme like them. We should maintain NPOV more strictly so that we don't get crushed like that.". --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 11:47, 14 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
So, your answer is, no? You've got a thing for Croatian language wiki.--Rovoobo (talk) 11:56, 14 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Your personal experience is completely irrelevant. What is relevant is the amount of flagrant lies on Serbian Wikipedia- something that cannot be remedied just like that, since number of pages immersed in Serbian nationalist mythology by far exceeds thousands of entries. Also, you're not present on Croatian Wikipedia since your Yugoslav nationalist position is completely at odds not only with Cro-wiki admins, but with Croatian academic community and public intellectual consensus at large. In sum: your opinion is your personal experience & nothing more. Mir Harven (talk) 12:03, 14 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Not true. Serbian wiki sysops are not wignuts, homophobes, xenophobes. They don't write crap articles. If Serbian Wikipedia is same as yours, You Mir Harven, would be among banned. But You are not and you weren't banned in past. -- Bojan Talk 11:57, 14 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Mir Harven, your attitude is not particularly helpful. Calling other editors names as well as making such general accusations against another wiki is neither fruitful nor pertinent. The burden of proof lies with the person making the claim, not the one disproving it. I'm sure that Serbian Wikipedia editors would love to get their hands on the list of "thousands of articles" that are allegedly "immersed in nationalist mythology" and contain "flagrant lies". But please take it elsewhere. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 12:17, 14 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Sorry, but you are acting like commissary type, labeling everyone who disagrees with you (fascists, nationalists, whatnot..). Serbian Wikipedia is drenched in nationalist megalomania, and you have seen this in the quoted article- there are numerous explicit examples. As I said: English speaking Wikipedians can use Google translate to see for themselves. As far as you're concerned: you're biased against dominant Croatian historical-cultural discourse; you're trying to deny or refute- because English speakers don't read these books etc.- widely accepted & corroborated positions of Croatian historians, linguists, legal experts etc. Mr. Štambuk-problem is with you & your efforts to sell Yugoslav ideology (not some "objective" history) which-surprise- coincides with Serbian nationalist mythologies in not few points. Your "opponents" are Radoslav Katičić, Ante Nazor, Davor Marijan, Ranko Matasović, Hrvoje Matković- not me. Mir Harven (talk) 13:31, 14 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
The difference is that you have no arguments to claim that I'm a "Yugoslav nationalist" - that label is a purely a result of your imagination. (If anything, I'm anti-nationalist) I understand that you're angry with English Wikipedia treating Croatian language as a standard register of Serbo-Croatian - what it really is, and what everyone with two functional brain cells and a background in Slavic languages knows very well, but such issues are tangential to the topic. This is about persistent right-wing bias on hr.wikipedia where nationalists such as yourself are given carte blanche by administrators to spread dangerous historical misconceptions, even downright lies, creating a toxic atmosphere where other-minded editors are discouraged to participate. Do you have anything to comment on the statements of minister Jovanović, and professor Kurelić? And they as well a result of "conspiracy" against Croatdom? How is hr.wikipedia to resolve their bias without external assistance when its userbase is almost entirely comprised of far-right sympathizers? --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 14:08, 14 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
1) So, the most prominent Croatian linguists, from Katičić to Matasović, don't have enough "brain cells"- unlike you ? With that sentence, you've completely unmasked yourself. 2) your "position" as "anti-nationalist" is fake. You have never written anything about oppression of Croats in any regime & you used a Comintern-style rhetoric (which was just a smokescreen for national & societal repression). As I've seen- you didn't address the fact that most Croatia-related articles are based or rewritten according to pre-eminent authorities works' in the field: Trpimir Macan, Bilandžić, Neven Budak, Katičić, Nazor, Marijan, Matković, Matasović, Rudolf, Radelić, Lučić, Lovorka Ćoralić, Tomasović, S.P. Novak, Sadkovich, .... So- you don't know serious literature on the controversial issues & rely on second-handed bombastic media stuff. 3) Minister Jovanović's biography on Croatian Wikipedia has stated only corroborated facts about his life and career. These are not opinions, but facts. There is no conspiracy. Nothing secret about it. This is just a policy of current government which is fiercely opposed by ca. 80% of most citizens, as opinion research has shown- from economic policy & language planning to health policy & diplomacy. The problem is with your perception of reality, sir. Mir Harven (talk) 14:31, 14 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
There are people with PhDs in geology that still support flat-Earth theory (see: Dawkins). Brainwashing can go a long way. Standard Bosnian/Croatian/Serbian/Montenegrin share 99% of their grammar and basic lexis, the differences are systematic and predictable, and completely transparent to their speakers. Most of the linguists that you've mentioned are employees of the government and are not allowed to deviate too much from the official hardline-nationalist doctrine of the "uniqueness" of Croatian language, or they would loose their jobs! Other Croatian linguists that are not on the Croatian government payroll (e.g. w:Snježana Kordić, or of younger ones - Orsat Ligorio, not to mention almost all of the foreign linguists which don't have emotional or ethnic involvement with the issue) generally dismiss such claims.
I don't write anything on politics in general because I don't care about it. According to your chop-logic non-sequiturs, just because I've written nothing of the prosecution of Croatians during the Yugoslav era I am by definition a "Yugoslav nationalist" ? I've also written nothing on the prosecution of Jews and Serbs - does that make me a Nazi sympathizer as well? Your arguments just don't add up. Please don't insult my intelligence which such fallacious reasoning. Of those that you mention, I did in fact reference Matasović and Katičić in some linguistic stuff I wrote, for the rest I haven't even heard before.
I've looked up Jovanović's biography on Croatian Wikipedia. It seems to be largely expanded in the last few days after the scandal has hit the mainstream media. It's a prime example of editorializing and POV-pushing done on the biographies of individuals that don't openly subscribe to radical nationalist agenda that you guys promote. It's difficult to find a single sentence on that article that doesn't portray him in bad light. But the biography of Ustashi butcher w:Vjekoslav Luburić reads like a hagiography!
The incumbent government is democratically elected, replacing the former right-wing government that has bankrupted the country and whose former Prime Minister of seven years w:Ivo Sanader is convicted of 10 years in prison on account of corruption, with several legal processes against him still ongoing. I'm very sorry that your beloved party HDZ has lost elections, but times are changing. Jovanović's statements have serious implications, as do the testimonies of Wiki-editors, as does the "this is all an UDBA conspiracy" and "there is no problem" reaction of the Croatian wiki-community. The first step of solving this is acknowledging that there is a problem, not attacking your interlocutors and placing counter-accusations against everyone involved. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 16:53, 14 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I won't bother with your other rhetorical exhibitions, so just a very graphic example of your mind-set. You are suggesting that Croatian linguists, members of numerous European & American academies, who unequivocally dismissed Snježana Kordić's political linguistic fictions- are some kind of puppies, cowards afraid of terrible nationalist Croatian government (or public, or institutions) ? Are you aware of the scope of implausibility of your contentions ? Are you aware that Croatian linguists, residing in Germany (ie., not on Croatia's payroll) like Zvonko Pandžić, have dismantled Kordić's political linguistics even more explicitly: http://www.scribd.com/doc/109055422/Zvonko-Pand%C5%BEi%C4%87-Odgovor-Snje%C5%BEani-Kordi%C4%87-Od-Galileja-do-zlatne-pti%C4%8Dice ? Are you aware that there are no first class Croatian language (or Serbian, for that matter) experts in the US & Britain- just writers of textbooks like Wayne Bowles or Ronelle Alexander ? Are you aware that there are no more "Serbo-Croatists" ? Are you aware that most eminent Croatists are Germans (Leopold Auburger, Elisabeth Erdmann-Pandžić, Reinhard Lauer), Polish (Joanna Rapacka, Barbara Oczkowa,.), Ukrainian (Lyudmila Vasilyeva), Russian (Artur Rafailovich Bagdasarov), Norwegian (Svein Monnesland),..? Are you aware that to accuse professional Croatian linguists with international reputation, authors of whole library of books, articles etc. of some kind of moral cowardice & "selling out" to- I guess- Croatian "nationalists" (who are these guys, by the way ?)- speaks enormously about your mind-set ? Are you aware that Snježana Korić is a second rate linguist, with no serious linguistic work (textbooks on "Serbo-Croatian" for foreigners, plus a pamphlet advocating Serbo-Croatist ideology ? Are you aware that Katičić, Matasović, Babić, Tafra, Malić, Hercigonja, Damjanović, Silić, Žagar,.. ..have written whole library of fundamental works on Croatian syntax, phonology, language history, lexicology, semantics, mathematical linguistics, dictionaries, historical Croatian grammars etc.- here are some works: http://ihjj.hr/izdanja/, http://www.croatica.hr/ And there is no single serious work on "Serbo-Croatian" published in past 20 years anywhere in the world- not only in Croatia, Serbia, ..but absolutely nowhere. I think there is not much to add. Mir Harven (talk) 17:36, 14 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Na kojem jeziku je napisana ova rečenica? When you figure it out, let me know. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 17:59, 14 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
This is the best you can come up with ? This is truly pathetic. Mir Harven (talk) 18:08, 14 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
What is truly pathetic is Croatian wiki's article on Croatian language, which is 98% politics and history (real and imagined), and 2% linguistics. For other interested parties: Na kojem jeziku je napisana ova rečenica? in Serbo-Croatian means "In what language is this sentence written?". Since modern standard Serbo-Croatian varieties are all based on the same subdialect of the same dialect, they share all of the basic vocabulary, phonology and 99% the grammar (we are literally speaking of thousands of inflectional and derivational morphemes). Sentences such as What is your name?, or How are you feeling today?, or In what language is this sentence written "translate" the same to Bosnian/Croatian/Serbian/Montenegrin, and illustrate how meaningless the treatment of four as "different languages" is. Such equivalence is unparalleled in any other language pairs. There are more differences in the speech of two neighboring villages in remote parts of Croatia or Serbia (speaking obscure dialects of Chakavian, Torlakian and Kajkavian), than between standard Bosnian/Croatian/Serbian/Montenegrin. That's harsh truth that you will have to come to terms with. All of your arguments are appealing to authority, none appeals to reality. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 19:44, 14 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Really pathetic. 1) Croatian is not "based" on any dialect, but stylized according Neo-Štokavian Ijekavian (not Eastern Herzegovinian, which is mostly Serbian dialect & the very name had been abandoned by the man who invented it, Pavle Ivić, a year or two before his death). Croatian standard language, as Branka Tafra has analyzed in her "Jezikoslovne razdvojbe", has no dialectal basis. Hence, there are forms in Croatian that are not Štokavian (for instance, prefix "protu" is from Kajkavian; suffix -l (stol, vol) is from Čakavian)- something perfectly understandable since Croatian has the roots in the 16th century Dubrovnik vernacular Renaissance literature, which was mostly Western Štokavian- ijekavian, combined with Čakavian ingredients. Serbian language, on the other hand, is truly based on a dialect, Štokavian of Eastern origin, which can be best discerned in accentuation, vocabulary & syntax (Karadžić's reform in the 19th C). 2) One sentence does not mean a lot. The point is: one cannot write a text, consisting of just a few sentences, which could not be readily recognized as either Croatian or Serbian. For instance, a newspaper article is very easily recognized, as is speech of an educated speaker of a language, be it Croatian or Serbian. On the other hand, one can watch half an hour of a movie, and not know whether it is in Hindi or Urdu-something impossible in Croatian and Serbian cases. So- you're just not accepting arguments. OK, anyone can live with that. But, what is unacceptable are your efforts to manipulate data, your ignorance of fundamental linguistic works, your false presentation of supposed sameness of Croatian and Serbian languages, your willful i"ignorance" that Serbo-Croatian is not a standard language anywhere in the world. Serbian and Croatian are two mutually intelligible languages with strong individuality which has broken all efforts (political, cultural, ..) of language unification, from 19th century to the 21st century. And- I've wasted too much time on your manipulative behavior. Mir Harven (talk) 20:31, 14 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Nope, standard Croatian is pure Neoštokavian Eastern-Hezegovinian, look it up in the books. Differences between B/C/S/M are much less than between Hindustani varieties. B/C/S/M are 100% mutually intelligible, Serbian movies are not subtitled when shown on Croatian TV channels (and vice versa), thousands of Serbian tourists have no need for a translator when coming to Croatia and so on. The substandard dialects of Ča and Kaj are 100x more different then Serbian, and yet they are called "dialects of Croatian". Go figure. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 20:54, 14 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Your "knowledge" evidently stems from "Serbo-Croatian" for beginners. I don't intend to bother further with your obstinate ignorance (for instance- you don't understand the difference between dialect & standard: native German speakers of Plattdeutsch are closer to speakers of the standard Dutch, than to the speakers of standard German. Yet, no one in their right mind would say that native speakers of northern Germanic dialects "actually" speak Dutch-and not German. Dialects are to be compared with dialects, standard language with standard language. Ignorance is bliss....). You're clueless re normative Croatian linguistic literature, and yet you try to speak authoritatively about these two languages. So- you don't know languages' history, you don't know the norm (grammar, dictionary,..)- in fact, you don't know anything but a core "Serbo-Croatian" grammar & ideology anchored in the 19th century neo-grammarian philology, now hopelessly dated. Well-I've had it enough. Here are two interviews, one from Katičić, another from Matasović, which clearly say that "Serbo-Croatian" had never existed. I'm done with you. http://www.matica.hr/vijenac/427/Srpski%20jezik%20nije%20%C5%A1tokavski/ , http://www.matica.hr/vijenac/383/Srpsko-hrvatski%20nikada%20nije%20ostvaren,%20jer%20nije%20postojao/Mir Harven (talk) 21:14, 14 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Nope, Matasović says that Proto-Croatian (prahrvatski) never existed in a strictly genetic sense, and that Croatian as a "collection of dialects" is merely an arbitrary grouping. He also says, quoting, hrvatski kao standardni jezik koji je nedvojbeno štokavski i u tom smislu dijeli dijalektalnu osnovicu sa srpskim, bošnjačkim i crnogorskim jezikom, translating "Croatian as a standard language is undoubtedly Štokavian, and in that sense shares dialectal basis with Serbian, Bonsnian and Montenegrin language". The same basis = Neoštokavian Eastern Herzegovinian, aka Serbo-Croatian. You need to read your sources better. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 21:34, 14 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Another fail. 1) you "forgot" the title: "Serbo-Croatian" has never existed". There is no news that genetically, Croatian is Kajakvian + Čakavian + Western Štokavian: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e8/Povijesno_rasprostiranje_narje%C4%8Dja_hrvatskog_jezika_u_HR_i_BIH.svg/798px-Povijesno_rasprostiranje_narje%C4%8Dja_hrvatskog_jezika_u_HR_i_BIH.svg.png Herzegovinian-Krajinian dialect ( former "Eastern Herzegovinian") stems from Eastern, not Western štokavian. Dubrovnik "language" is also Western, and part of neo-Štokavian Ijekavian: but, not of Eastern-Herzegovinian (older notation): This has been proven by Brabec in 1960s and Brozović in 1990s. So- you don't know relevant things again. 2) also, you conveniently forgot Katičić: Tko je „kriv“ što je hrvatski književni jezik izgrađen na dijalektu? Došli smo do jako komplicirane teme koja je preduvjet da se uopće razumije što je hrvatski jezik. Dogma je da je hrvatski književni jezik izgrađen na dijalektu. Hrvatski književni jezik izgrađen je na pisanju knjiga pri čemu se imitira model određenog dijalekta koji pomaže, olakšava, da književni jezik bude blizak onima kojima se obraća, da im bude razumljiv. -To je ono što je Bartol Kašić propisao, a Vuk S. Karadžić pokrao? -Ne bih ja tako rekao jer je Vuk Karadžić doista na dijalektu gradio književni jezik, a Kašić nije. Kašić je imao glagoljašku tradiciju, cijelu tradiciju hrvatskog pisanja, i onda se kada je prevodio Sveto pismo najviše naslonio na štokavski. Cijela naša nevolja je u tome što je Maretić primijenio Karadžićevu koncepciju na hrvatski jezik, a to nam paše kao prasici sedlo, da jednom citiram i Staljina./Q: Who is guilty that Croatian is based on a dialect ? A: ..It's a dogma that Croatian is based on a dialect; Croatian literary language is based on writing of books, whereby it imitates a model of a certain dialect which makes it easier for communication. Q: That is what Bartol Kašić had prescribed, and Vuk Karadžić had stolen ? A: I wouldn't say so, because Karadžić did indeed base his literary language on a dialect, unlike Kašić. Kašić was inheritor of the entire Glagolitic tradition & when he translated the Bible, he stylized his language according Štokavian. Our whole trouble stems from the fact that Maretić (neo-grammarian 19th-20th C philologue) applied Karadžić's concept on Croatian, and we're satisfied with that as a pig with a saddle- to quote even Stalin. So- your Eastern Herzegovinian mythology is a failed enterprise. Good for beginners' textbooks, but not more. Mir Harven (talk) 22:23, 14 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
By Serbo-Croatian in English both the common core of modern B/C/S/M is understood, as well as the former official language of Yugoslavia (which according to some nationalists "never existed", despite the fact that it had grammars and dictionaries published for 150 years). Eastern/Western divide of Štokavian is ancient pre-Ottoman history, modern Dubrovnikan speech is pure Neoštokavian (see Lisac 2003:98, as cited in the references of w:Eastern Herzegovinian dialect, where it is explicitly mentioned as belonging to the istočnohercegovačko-krajiški dijalekt, and also map on the page 160). Josip Lisac is the most prominent Croatian dialectologist, why would he lie? Oh wait, he's not lying, you are! The claim of Croatian being a mixture of Ča/Kaj/Što is also absurd - you can count on the fingers of one hand the number of Čakavisms and Kajkavisms that have entered standard Croatian. Those are sub-standard dialects that are growing extinct, because they are not written and all the kids are schooled in pure Štokavian Serbo-Croatian. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 22:50, 14 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Mir Harven, Ivan Štambuk is user who blocks every contributor who points out that the serbo-croatian artificial language mixture project has failed. He threats users by his sysop tools  Denies that Serbo-Croatian never existed despite being enforced by nondemocratic yugoslav regimes for a long period of time. The Serbo-Croatian language project is now dead since the regimes that forced it no longer exist. He can't accept that. The emperor is naked but he sees beautiful dress. So he will try to convince everyone that the emperor realy has nice new clothes. Who doesn't agree, will be blocked. . He will try to harm Wikipedia in Croatian language whenever he can because he think Wikipedia in Croatian should not exist. 220.127.116.11 20:05, 14 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
What has failed? Wiktionary endorsed Serbo-Croatian unification proposal, and has done so while I was on a lengthy wiki-break. I have blocked several nationalists in the past because they were generating more trouble than content. I personally think that Croatian Wikipedia should exist, for now, until a machine translation solution is developed that works perfectly turning different B/C/S varieties into one another. It can be done, but not by a single person over the weekends. Perhaps one day.. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 20:54, 14 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Some information about the media in Croatia: As we all know in Croatia was never done a lustration as it was done in other former comunist countries. People who were educated and indoctrinated in comunist countries call many things "fascism" what we in the Western world we are not used to do. We have even this sad situaton with the goverment is playing "lex perkovic" Lex Perkovic, EU Inside. The administrators in Croatian Wikipedia are not doing a better and not a worse job than their collegue admins in other wikipedias. --Croq (talk) 11:50, 14 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I don't see how actions of the incumbent Croatian government are relevant to this discussion?! Regarding fascism - it has a pretty strict definition in all of the European countries, primarily as a result of the WW2 that has engulfed the continent, and particularly in formerly occupied/annexed countries where resistance movements have become one of the pillars of future statehood. The fascism in the title refers to the coverage of the topic on Croatian Wikipedia, which according to the media and some analysts is biased, and an ideology which should be condemned is essentially more or less subtly glorified. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 12:11, 14 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
There are open and clear requests that Croatian Wikipedia should be Wikipedia for "true Catholic Croatians" ("Wikipedija pravih hrvata katolika"). Further more, all complaints are pronounced to be "special war by secret agencies" ("...jer se radi o specijalnom ratu istih onih koji skrivaju UDBAše tipa Perkovića") . 18.104.22.168 12:27, 14 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
There are also lyrics of a war song that mentions taking up knives and defending the homeland against enemies. The atmosphere is charged, and replies make use of words such as Yugo-communist. The Minister in question is being called names (Jovan), and several users explicitly state that they perceive this RfC and comments on Jimbo's talk page as a "war" against Croatian language and culture. Mir Harven is the one claiming that it's a "special kind of war" (radi se o specijalnom ratu), and Vodomar has expressed a concern of godlessness spreading among the general population. They are also apparently planning on contacting some members of the Croatian Parliament in order to "prevent shutting down of Croatian Wikipedia". Unfortunately, none of the comments address actual issues discussed here - admin abuse, biased articles, and the lack of editors that are not HDZ voting block. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 21:23, 14 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Nobody wrote in th earticle that fascism should be not condemned. But in ex comunist cuntries "antifascism" has not the same meaning as in western democracies. In Western world we do not fit in the "red star" as here http://www.sabh.hr/ By the way the red star is prohibited in many countries --Croq (talk) 12:31, 14 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
How long will a wooden lawyers talking here demagoguery that the Croatian Wikipedia is working properly? Again I repeat all that is project where the same users make changes. When you need to fix the bias of an article about the Second World War beneficiaries receive continued blockage of an administrator to block them under false descriptions of the vandals. Administrators then protect the articles on their biased version. What are those administrators who do not accept the criticism of his work? --Kolega2357 (talk) 12:37, 14 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
That is not truth koelga! If you put in sources nobody blocks you. --Croq (talk) 12:43, 14 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Croq: Serbian Wikipedia does not hide that it is not perfect, but own critics not callen UDBA, CIA, Masons, Illuminati and other. Serbian Wikipedia try to see if the critic is groundless, if it is grounded fix article or place template POV, sources, citation needed. --Kolega2357 (talk) 13:32, 14 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I think there should be an arbitration case by a third party to determine the bias of Croatian admins, and if they are indeed right-wing extremist in a way that's making the editing of Croatian Wikipedia impossible, they should be stripped of their admin status and blocked for good. Also, Croq, you're not making much sense. --Tvrtko26 (talk) 14:01, 14 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
There is no fascism on Wikipedia in Croatian language. Some journalists who favor old yugoslav communist regime are used to blame every opinion that doesn't favor that regime as fascists opinion and themself as antifascist. Every certain while they proscribe someone who doesn't promote yugoslav Tito's regime as the best place for living on Earth as fascists. This is the old practise of yugoslav media from the dark times of communism. There hasn't been lustracio in Croatia like Poland, Germany, Czech R., Slovakia etc. ex-communist countries. So many old regime journalists and politicians hold they positions. Wikipedia should not back down under their political or yellow journalism pressure. Wikipedia in Croatian language respects plurality of opinions and some can't get over it.
It has many contributors who give their time and effort in order to make it better and better. Admins do their best to solve conflicts and help where they can. That's my expirience. Wikimedia shouldn't been humiliating Croatian Wikipedia contributors and their work by giving attention to these false accusations from the outside of the community of Croatian Wikipedia, whether they come from yellow press or serbian/serbo-croatian wikipedians. Chvrka (talk) 14:03, 14 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Can't you see that You've just confirmed our point that hr. wiki is lair of rightwingers? -- Bojan Talk 14:07, 14 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I've been contributing to Wikipedia in Croatian language and I saw that admins respect plurality of opinion. I've seen that when there is some political controversy they insist that plurality should be respected, that every relevant position should be explained in it's best. I think that's good. If both left and right are presented in it's best on some subject then it will be a good NPOV article. If it doesn't, then the articles would look like those on serbo-croatian or serbian Wikipedia where no other than Serbian or Yugoslav nationalist opinion is allowed.
Wikipedia in Croatian language is much much more than a few articles concerning some political questions and debates. It is a colletion of knowledge that's growing constantly. By attacking it's community yellow press and some serbian wikipedians are trying to handicap it. Their biasing of Wikipedia in Croatian language shouldn't be supported by Wikimedia. That's the point. Chvrka (talk) 14:19, 14 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
It should be noted that the author of that article, Tvrtko Dolić, has been denounced by Croatian Journalists' Association, as well as reported on criminal charges of hate speech by Drago Pilsel . Dnevno.hr is an irrelevant tabloid portal, unworthy of a Wikipedia article, let alone our attention. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 17:13, 14 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Mir Harven, we don't lie ourselves that we are perfect. We are not. But allows me that says something:
Dnevno.hr: Srpska wikipedija i dalje podržava laž da je sarajevski atentat nad Ferdinandom Habsburškim djelo organizacije Mlada Bosna, a ne velikosrpske Crne ruke.
Sr.wiki article Sarajevski atentat (Assassination of Franz Ferdinand): Planovi za njegovo ubistvo počeli su da se kuju tek pošto se tajnim kanalima u Srpskoj obaveštajnoj službi na čelu sa Dragutinom Dimitrijevićem saznalo da austrougarski prestolonaslednik dolazi u Sarajevo da nadgleda vojne manevre.
That part on Lazar Hrebeljanovic is not worth of kilobytes it occupies.
If you have slightest knowledge of history, you will see that Dnevno.hr wrote lies. That' is the difference: we don't call our critics UDBA, CIA, Vatican as you do. And one thing: Dnevno.hr doesn't say anything on sr.wiki sysops, because, I believe, they couldn't wind misuse of sysop powers, nor they could find wignuts in our ranks. And You have sysops that wrote that Apparitions of Virgin Mary are phenomenon...-- Bojan Talk 15:46, 14 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
You have just confirmed that dnevno.hr was, in this article- right. Thanks. Mir Harven (talk) 16:18, 14 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
All that you wrote here suggest there is more than media reported...-- Bojan Talk 16:29, 14 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Why users of Serbian and Serbo-Croatian Wikipedia have need to attack Wikipedia on Croatian language? Because more people reads and trusts Wikipedia on Croatian language, according to statistics? What is this? Why don't you make your projects be good as Wikipedia on Croatian? Then there wouldn't be such wish to blame admins on Croatian Wikipedia in order to take their functions, I suppose. Chvrka (talk) 15:51, 14 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Because it host lies. Hr.wiki sysop misuse given privileges to enforce their point of view. And statistics doesn't show that people trust you - in fact, the harshest critics came from Croatia, not from Serbia. -- Bojan Talk 15:56, 14 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Chvrka, why are you trying to transform this into ad hominem attack based on nationality? The issue was raised by Croats who want Croatian Wikipedia to be NPOV, without political, religious or other biases. The problem are not people raising the issue, the problem is content on Croatian Wikipedia which is biased, has many false statements, and as it seems that administrators prevent editors to remove biases and false statements. Marekich (talk) 16:25, 14 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Well, you just hosted lies on this talk page. Do you hate Wikipedia on Croatian language, Croatia and Croatians in general? I'm asking because many Serbians do, they don't hide that. Would be much better if you would try to make Serbian Wikipedia more reliable than Croatian one. That would be properly invested time. Be constructive, not destructive.
It is obvious that most of the attackers on hr.wiki sysops has destructive goals. Wikimedia shouln't be giving so much attention to it. Chvrka (talk) 16:19, 14 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I'm not asking if you are or not Yugoslav or Serbian nationalist. I'm asking you do you hate Wikipedia on Croatian language, Croatia and Croatians in general? I'm asking because you write defamation on sysops of Wikipedia in Croatian language. I'm asking because many people from Serbia do hate everything related to Croatia and they don't hide that. I hope that will change some day. Till that day comes, every objection to Croatian Wikipedia written by wikipedians from serbian/serbo-c. Wikipedia should be ignored. Like any attack from Palestinians on Israel Wikipedia. Chvrka (talk) 16:34, 14 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
If I comprehended correctly, your bad (sorry!) English essentially boils down to: There are Serbs that "hate" Croats, and until there is no such hate all of the objections by all of the Serbian Wikipedians on Croatian wikiprojects are to be ignored. Do you have any idea how discriminatory that is? --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 20:16, 14 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Sorry because of my bad English, you obviously got me wrong. I think accusations of Croatian Wikipedia should be ignored if they are motivated by hate. Serbs who contribute to the Wikipedia in Croatian should be heard, but those who are vandalizing it and editing Serbo-Croatian and Serbian Wikipedia should be ignored. Because their reason for the attacks is often hate against Croatia and Croatians in general. There is a distincion between Serbs who hate Croatian Wikipedia and vandalize it and those who don't have that motiv in their mind. Chvrka (talk) 20:29, 14 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Yes- why are you so frustrated with Croatian Wikipedia ? Serbian Wikipedia, on controversial issues, is simply a bunch of lies: Jasenovac CC, Operation Storm, Operation Flash, RSK, NDH, Ante Gotovina,.. ..or ancient history or culture (regional Croatian literature in Dubrovnik not a part of Croatian literature etc.), Ruđer Bošković a "Serb" & other falsities. You have tried, and are trying, to minimize Serbian atrocities in Bosnian War, and are inflating Serbian victims near Srebrenica by a factor of 10. Simply, it's not some imaginary "righteousness" you're propelled by- you're losers. You lost what you had had in Yugoslavias- the dominance re historical, national & cultural discourse. Croatian Wikipedia is read more, quoted more & is more influential on public opinion. And this especially regarding matters that are sensitive & mold public opinion. So you try to shut Croatian Wikipedia up, if you cannot all Croatian institutions (which are more reliable in international community than yours). That's what it all boils down to. Mir Harven (talk) 16:18, 14 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Chvrka and Mir Harven - this level of discussion is unacceptable. This is not place for nationalistic ad hominem attacks. Start discussing about the content raised by the issue, and how admins on hr.wiki control for bias and accuracy. Marekich (talk) 16:32, 14 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Please stop accusing Bojan of being nationalist and focus this discussion on Croatian Wikipedia. I'm an editor from Croatia, and also too displeased with the current state of Croatian Wiki. --GedeonWolf (talk) 16:35, 14 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
You have no edits of Wikipedia in Croatian language. Not with that username.
I did focuse on the topic but some use accusation without relevant prof. Why? I must ask that. Now it is relevant.
Wikipedia in Croatian is not the best in the world and sysops are not superhumans but mentioning fascism and POV in relation with them is obviously defamation. Forgive me but I can see the source of it, I'm not blind. Chvrka (talk) 16:46, 14 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Enough with double-talk. Go to Serbian Wikipedia & read articles on Jasenovac CC, Ante Gotovina, Franjo Tuđman, Ruđer Bošković, Croatian language, Operation Flash, Operation Storm, Greater Serbia, Republic of Serbian Krajina, Srebrenica massacre, Ivan Gundulić, Marin Držić, Chetniks, ... Why is there a discussion on "Fascism" (silly term, better would be "nationalist intransigence" or something similar)- but no words about Serbian Wikipedia, which is completely drowned in Serbian chauvinist myths which deny Croatdom of numerous events & figures in Croatian history & culture, and distort or suppress unpleasant facts about Serbian history ? And- why are so many Serbs here, at discussion on Croatian Wikipedia- if not for ulterior motives ? Who in his right mind cares about what Serbs are writing in their Wikipedia ? No one in Croatia gives a hoot. So, this entire discussion has started due to ideological aggression as exemplified by Croatian media lynching (and instigated by truly controversial Croatian politicos), to be quickly "assisted" (aided & abetted) by Serbian Wikipedia contributors who- lo & behold- appeared out of nowhere. What a small world ! Pure coincidence, I guess.Mir Harven (talk) 17:05, 14 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Conspiracy theory? Are you for real? Deal with Serbian and other Wikipedias somewhere where it isn't off topic. Deal with content of controversial articles on Croatian Wikipedia here. Marekich (talk) 17:15, 14 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
They've appeared because I've invited them on the local community discussion board to share their experiences. I've also left invitations on bs and sh wikis. Their testimonies matter great deal because there is almost no one left on Croatia Wikipedia that would be critical of the clique running it. All of the dissenters get blocked or driven away. Since Serbs and Bosnians speak the same language as Croats, and the controversial and all too familiar topics on Croatian Wikipedia that were discussed in the media also deal with Serbs and Bosniaks in the 20th century, they can provide some valuable (and hopefully impartial) insight. That you don't care what they think is characteristic of the whole modus operandi of Croatian wiki - a close-knit community, sharing the same political, religious and ethnic identity, unfortunately ignoring the core pillars of Wikipedia such as NPOV and openness, treating every dissenting opinion and outside interference as some kind of "conspiracy" against Croatdom. You simply cannot act like that. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 17:32, 14 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Oh, yeah- Ivan Gundulić is not a Croatian poet & Marin Držić is not a Croatian playwright. Operation Storm was an ethnic cleansing and a crime. This is Serbian Wikipedia. Only when you explicitly address these issues, any productive talk is possible. Mir Harven (talk) 18:08, 14 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
That's not Serbian Wikipedia, that was Serbian historians and we wrote articles based on affordable and reliable literature on serbian language (like it or not, personally I disagree with many issues but who am i to judge ). And that is main difference between wikipedias on Serbian and Croatian language. Of course there is many sensitive issues, especially about wars in 90s, LGBT topics, religion etc but big majority of editors on Serbian wiki tries really hard to solve that problems and make that issues more objective and unbiased. And BTW I really don't care for problems on Croatian wiki --НиколаБ (talk) 19:16, 14 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Of course Ivan Gundulic and Mrain Drzic are not Croatian. They never self-identified as Croatian, indeed Drzic writes about an uncouth character in one of his plays as being from "the far away land of Croatia" and he is made a fool of by everybody. Also, of course Operation Storm was war crime (not one but a series thereof), and it remains so according to most world historians and the ICTY, it was only that Gotovina and Markac could not have been sufficiently enough tied to the said series of war crimes which are officially identidfied as such in the reasoning of that instution (ICTY).
Many of the Old Ragusan writers never explicitly identified as Croats, and Croatia didn't even exist until 20-something years ago. However, Dubrovnik is now part of Croatia, and "retroactively" their works are subsumed into Croatian historical literature. The problem is, however, that modern standard Serbian and Croatian are one and the same language, and with the absence of ethnic self-identification of these writers they can be legitimately called Serbian writers as well. NPOV article would not present them as either Serbian or Croatian, but something along the lines According to most Croatian literary historians, Gundulić is classified as a Croatian writer. [many references]. Serbian sources either treat him as a Serbian writer [many references], or do not explicitly assign him a nationality [many references]. Unfortunately, neither Serbian nor Croatian Wikipedia articles describe him like that. BTW, many myths regarding the historical evolution of Croatian identity are dispelled and clarified in this book (try searching for Gundulić) inside!), which is written by an outsider which has no stake in the issue. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 08:33, 16 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Croatian Wikipedia and their administrators are one of worst in whole Wikimedia project. I am Wikipedian user for more than 6 years and I have great ideas which they dropped. Even Serbian, SerboCroatian, wiki have Wikinews, our admins did all which they could to stop my initiative. On our home page under news, only admins can add news and they must be only good and in Croatia. No words about Syria, US... They never translate Fundraising messages to Croatian, for more than 3 years only I translate that banners and messages on meta. As one of them said "Wikimedia doesn't need money from us". Here is not problem only in some articles, it is affected in much bigger view. For example, one year ago I edited Judith A. Reisman article to have more neutral view. In English and other wikipedias there were sentences that she is conservative, and more bad stuff about her. When we tried to add that on Croatian article multiple times, our administrators keep returning article to old version and on the end locking it without a word of controversy, article wasn't been neutral. I have a lot of examples like this and when even Croatian Minister of science and education tells kids not to use Croatian Wikipedia, you can tell that something is wrong in Croatian administrators or maybe in whole project. All medias in Croatia make fun of Croatian Wikipedia, even popular news satire magazine "News bar" (like Onion) make fun of Wikipedia saying that same people are admins on wiki and their site. Something needs to be changed.--Anton008 19:40, 14 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Croatian WikiNews was obstructed because you're not part of the clique. Yo do not blindly follow directives, and trust core admins (SpeedyGonsales, Roberta F.) making important decisions in your name. Like they've collectively signed all of the sysops on Croatian Wikipedia in the "letter of refutation" that is linked via a sitenotice, without actually informing all of the sysops. User:Flopy spilled the beans about it in Kafić (and will no doubt be duly reprimanded in their sysop-only mailing list which they use to orchestrate such actions). --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 19:53, 14 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
It seems to me that we are again having user:WizardOfOz case. There is clear accusation against administrators on croatian wikipedia and there is too much trolling so that it will be very hard for anybody to make decision. Only difference between WizardOfOz case and today is media criticism of fascism on croatian wikipedia. Now I will make my official statement about situation of croatian wikipedia and nobody is invited to start discussion in inside my statement section.
I will not comment facebook which is saying that word criminal is used 2 time in article about Hitler, 5 times in article about Tito and 0 time in article about Ante Pavelić (Croatia WWII fascist leader) .
I will not comment that for example en:Mirko Norac war criminal convicted by Croatian courts for killing not armed Serb civilian prisoners is hero on Croatian wikipedia, but on other side en:Arkan never convicted leader of Serbian paramilitary force is war criminal on Croatian wikipedia (this both examples from 1991-95 war). Bosnian, Croatian, Serbian word for "war criminal" is "ratni zločinac".
I am writing my comments hear only because I am en:L'enfant terrible of Croatian wikipedia. After they have shown me that I am not welcome on croatian wikipedia I have gone on sh wikipedia, but they can't leave me alone.
In 2012. there has been discussion on croatian wikipedia about my administrative action on sh wikipedia (asking user to not write "taken from hr wikipedia" because hr wikipedia has forbidden statements "taken from sh wikipedia". Now sh wikipedia rules about that has changed)
After start of today facebook discussion they have again called my name
My name has been called even in 2010 meta discussion about WizardOfOz block.
Because of administrators I have left croatian wikipedia, but even now 3 years after that they looking what I am doing and they are calling my name for nothing ?????
I will speak in this statement only about croatian administrator actions.
I have left hr wikipedia in 2009, but still in 2010 I have been writing comment on talk pages when I discover article which is having interesting enough NPOV problem.
1) On 15.11.2010. I have writen on talk page of article Obrana zračne luke na Krku (Defense of Krk airport) something like:There is to early for war mythology. There has not been battle or anything similar for Krk.
There is not even need to say that when they have addeed that article on english wikipediait has been deleted.
2) User Croq has in this discussion told us how sh wikipedia users are taking with copy-paste articles from croatian wikipedia on sh wikipedia, but he has not told us that you will be blocked for propaganda if in articles taken with copy-paste from sh wikipedia on hr wikipedia you write that they have been taken from sh wikipedia. I have been blocked 6 months on croatian wikipedia because of that with comment:
"You have been warned to stop using wikipedia like forum for your propaganda by administrator Sokac121"
3) I want to use again example of WizardOfOz which has been administrator on bosnian wikipedia. On croatian wikipedia he has been blocked for wrong reasons in 2010 by administrator Kubura. Meta decision is that Kubura block is illegal (his sysop rights has been removed for 6 months), but in typical croatian wikipedia administrator decision WizardOfOz account on croatian wikipedia has been unblocked and then 4 minutes latter again blocked (now for 2 years). Message has been very, very clear:
We are ruling croatian wikipedia and we can do anything what we want
My advice is removal of sysop rights of all croatian wikipedia administrators, checkuser check of all administrators and must active users on hr wikipedia (there has been now very old incident on sr wikipedia). Giving sysop rights to for example BokicaK (sysop on sr and sh) and few other administrators from other wikipedia projects with more or less perfect knowledge of croatian (bosnian/croatian/montenegrin/serbian) language.--Rjecina2 (talk) 20:06, 14 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
This words of you suprised me Rječina. What do you have against me? We have never been in conflict. You obviously forget how good and open our communication was. I am sorry because of that. Until today I am in very good and friendly contact with Wizzard. --Flopy (talk) 09:14, 15 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I think that my participation in United Wikipedias peacekeeping forces is not wise. -- Bojan Talk 14:03, 15 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Flopy I do not understand you. I have not spoken against you (I have received wikiemails with question:About what is Flopy talking), but only I have been showing in which way croatian wikipedia administrators are acting ?? I have used my and WizardOfOz case because I know that situation and because we both are administrators on other wiki projects.
Flopy you can only be guilty by association for being "team player". I really do not know why your account has again become active and screaming:"I am good person which is against hr wiki administrators ?" Maybe you want to be again administrator on new croatian wiki (or what will be in the end) ?? --Rjecina2 (talk) 07:50, 17 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Rjecina2, did You forgot who understood Your position and that You were too cruelly blocked on hr.wiki (by an late admin) ?
But, it was me who respected Your previous work, respected best in You and who has not forgotten that. As soon as I got the tools, I unblocked You, despite being criticized by some.
Here You have a bunch of proofs: admins helped You with sources (just search e.g. my or Roberta's name), adviced You how to express (e.g., me, Roberta or some others).
Even when You were in certain violations (in later phases), admins assumed good faith and You passed without the block.
Have You forgotten when I encouraged You when You were under attacks on the en.wiki, when You suffered because of misunderstanding ?
Have You forgotten when I adviced You, especially when You were showing severe signs of burnout (on en.wiki, you were often reported !): " don't loose your temper and engage in the edit war. Put your version (you can do that, because you've given an reference), and then use talkpage and tell him that he cannot delete these lines just like that. I repeat, don't engage in the edit war. Explain your opponent there, what he has to do and what he cannot do. Than he'll have to answer. ".
Seeing Your message above, dear friend, this means: You show no "thanks", no AGF, no "kolegijalnost", no understanding, forgetting Your friends in trouble, forgetting Your benefactors when they are wrongly accused.
No good deed goes unpunished. Kubura (talk) 02:21, 27 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
In this brouhaha I am seeing allegations of homophobia and homophobic abuse on hr.wp. I sincerely hope that this isn't the case, but I really want this issue to be gotten to the bottom of. Can anyone show me clear evidence of any type of homophobic abuse against editors on Croatian Wikipedia? If there is such abuse occurring, I am certain that the community will take swift action, although I do hope this is merely a storm in a teacup. And short diffs, instead of big walls of text would be great. Russavia (talk) 17:17, 14 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Why of course! http://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/U_ime_obitelji run this through google translate, it makes for an interesting read... I find this sentence especially interesting: Prema mišljenju LGBT aktivista inicijativa je homofobna, prema uobičajenom korištenju te etikete u Hrvatskoj - za omalovažavanje onih čija mišljenja nisu u skladu s nekim od prohtjeva LGBT aktivista odnosno za stavove koji drže te prohtjeve štetnima za druge sastavnice društva. (According to the opinion of the LGBT activists, the initiative is homophobic, per usual usage of that etiquette in Croatia - for vilification of those whose opinions aren't aligned with some of the demands of LGBT activists, i.e. for mindsets who find these demands harmful to other elements of society.) I believe that this "per usual usage of that etiquette in Croatia" and the rest of the sentence is trying to vilify the opinion among general public of this initiative being homophobic, and in an article so full of anti-gay mongering, a section of criticism should be allowed to stay, without the editors trying to belittle that criticism. I tried to make the article sound more equal, but my edits were reverted several times. The user Chvrka was the one who removed my edits. http://hr.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=U_ime_obitelji&diff=4116139&oldid=4113140 My edit made the article more objective and non-biased. --Tvrtko26 (talk) 17:31, 14 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I don't mean content disputes such as the above, but actual homophobic editorial abuse. Are there any instances of this. Also, I do see that in your additions to the article that they are not referenced; can you source those statements you inserted? If so, there is no reason they can't stay in the article, but being unsourced it is fair that it was removed on that basis alone. Russavia (talk) 17:41, 14 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I'm not aware of the actual homophobic editorial abuse, if it ever happened, but the sentence in the article I changed also didn't have any sources or references whatsoever. I wrote somewhere in the beginning of this page that Croatian editors aren't used to sources or references, due to no NOR policy on Croatian wiki - basically, anyone can write whatever they like. I wrote that the initiative is homophobic, which it is, because they explicitly stated they are against LGBT people, and the last thing I changed was that calling something homophobic doesn't immediately mean it's an insult, it may be just stating simple facts. Finally, this initiative supposedly had enough signatures to hold a referendum about "marriage - a union between man and woman", but in light of the EU's policy towards the LGBT people and since Croatia is now an EU member, I see no way of this referendum question being constitutional/allowed by the constitutional court. Especially since France recently allowed gay marriage. --Tvrtko26 (talk) 17:54, 14 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Russavia, I don't know whether you see this as homophobic, but you have article about Marriage, where admin Zeljko forces his point of view where he sees marriage exclusively as bounding between man and woman, and undid any changes to gender neutral statements. So instead marriage is "is a socially or ritually recognized union or legal contract between spouses that establishes rights and obligations between" (from English Wikipedia), we have that marriage (brak) is "social union and legal contract between two people, man and woman, for the purpose of living together and raising children". Marekich (talk) 17:46, 14 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
In Croatia, marriage is exactly this. There are legal civil unions between persons of same sex, but they are not recognized as "marriage". Also, same sex couples cannot adopt children. If you want correct information on what "marriage" means in Croatia, you got it. Mir Harven (talk) 17:56, 14 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
The article in question is about marriage in general, and not about Croatian marriage or marriage in Croatia. Croats didn't invent marriage, nor did Christians. Therefor the article should be NPOV, and in the article there should be statement that current Croatian law defines marriage as bounding between man and woman. Marekich (talk) 18:03, 14 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Marekich, that's exactly what I wanted to write, but for some reason my comment wasn't saved. The article marriage may be on the wikipedia in Croatian language, but it ought to describe every marriage in every culture in the world, not just your default marriage in Croatia. You're not writing about Croatia. You're editing an encyclopedia about a term which is present in every culture in the world. And in some cultures, the term marriage even includes marriages between two guys. Thus, your definiton of "marriage" on Croatian Wikipedia would be faulty. --Tvrtko26 (talk) 18:08, 14 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
OK, this can be rectified: in ca. 200 countries in the world, marriage is union between man and women. In ca. 10+ countries, it's between adults of any sex. Mir Harven (talk) 18:14, 14 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Can it be rectified? Admin Zeljko undid every attempt to rectify it. Marekich (talk) 18:20, 14 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
No, he is indeed not sky god. But apparently he does have a picture of the Ustaša Ante Pavelić on his bedroom wall, as can be seen here. Surname has been obscured for privacy reasons. 22.214.171.124 11:30, 15 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I don't see it so much homophobic, as it is the reality in many parts of the world (let's come back to this). But again, this is a content dispute. What I am wanting to know is if editors have been blocked, abused or otherwise mistreated on an editorial level. Am I correct if I were to say that the "homophobia" is occurring only on a content level, and not on an editorial level? Russavia (talk) 17:58, 14 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
There is no article on "Marriage" in Croation Wikipedia; there is an article on "Brak". Perhaps a more accurate translation would be "heterosexual marriage". StAnselm (talk) 21:31, 15 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
You're lying. Your translation is the one that's inaccurate. Brak literally just means "marriage". If you think it means "heterosexual marriage", then you'll have to explain to these foreigners why we can use the word "brak" in the same sense the English word "marriage" can be used, that is, for example, in the sense of "marriage between state and the criminal underground" ("brak države i podzemlja"). I'm sure you realize that neither the state (country) nor the criminal underground are heterosexual beings. 126.96.36.199 21:46, 15 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Here's an example of administrator Zeljko saying about homosexuality - "To je bolesna sklonost, što to ne navedete. Kakva orijentacija, ...i zamatanje u celofan."
A rough translation would be "It's a sick affinity, why don't you mention that. Please, orientation... bending the truth."
So you're telling me he hasn't had even a slight a bit of bias in any regard due to his opinion when editing LGBT articles? Come on... --Tvrtko26 (talk) 18:14, 14 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Why would this be called "bias" ? It's opinion. I think, for instance, that English poetry is richer than French. Am I biased against French poetry ? Mir Harven (talk) 18:24, 14 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
"French poetry... it's a sick doggerel, why don't you mention that. Please, Baudelaire... Yeah, right!" If you wrote something like that, then I'd say you were. --188.8.131.52 21:00, 14 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
No one ever was blocked or offended because of it's sexsual orientation. There has never been homofobia on Wikipedia in Croatian language. It is strictly prohibited to offend someone because he is gay, lesbian, transsexual etc. Never happened. False acusation. When talking about content, there are some articles that explain some topics exclusivelly from the LGBT view. There is a article hr:U ime obitelji which explains the inicitative that collected signatures for the referendum on the topic of marriage. This iniciative is not homofobic because it does not offend LGBT person. It just wants marriage to be defined as man + woman. It is wrong when Wikipedia attitude would be that more than 700 000 people who signed that petition are homofobes. Then these are also homofobes. Chvrka (talk) 18:13, 14 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
This user  who is queer as his page says wrote many articles. He was never disrupted. Never ofended. Other users who are LGBT also were never mistreated. You can see on theirs discussion pages that sysops that are attacked here are very polite and helpful when dealing with contribotors to the LGBT Portal on Croatian Wikipedia. Chvrka (talk) 18:44, 14 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
You should check what the word en:homophobia means (It can be expressed as antipathy, contempt, prejudice, aversion, or hatred, may be based on irrational fear, and is sometimes related to religious beliefs.) The movement U ime obitelji say their activities "promote general human values" thus showing antipathy, aversion, and even contempt towards homosexuality, they are explicitly against homosexual couples adopting children thus showing irrational fear for the adopted children, they called sex education school curiculum "ideologically colored" because it presented homosexuality as a normal human sexual behavior and not disease, they want to prevent equating civil union of two homosexual persons with marriage between man and woman. This is all there on their booklet! This is clearly homophobic. And yet, in the article on Croatian Wikipedia editors are not allowed not even to make that remark, they are not allowed write criticism which won't be "corrected" using right-wing bias. The article currently says in the Criticism section "...prema uobičajenom korištenju te etikete u Hrvatskoj - za omalovažavanje onih čija mišljenja nisu u skladu s nekim od prohtjeva LGBT aktivista odnosno za stavove koji drže te prohtjeve štetnima za druge sastavnice društva." (...according to the usual usage of that label [homophobic] in Croatia - for belittling thouse whose opinions are not in accordance with some of LGBT activist, or stances that hold those requests bad for other parts of socity). So, even the plain criticism (read: "the other side") on Croatian Wikipedia cannot be written without inserting admin's bias. This is disturbing, this is a clear violation of Wikipedia rules. NPOV - where is it? Marekich (talk) 19:55, 14 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
The extent of Homophobia by one Ivica Vlahović [] and especially one MaGa [] and one Zeljko [], who appear to be admins, is outrageous.
They would not let the well referenced (with links to Croatian press) info about call for murder of LGBT protesters at the Split Pride by high ranking priests of the Roman-Catholic Church in Croatia stand for longer than 5 minutes before they deleted them.
One Jure_Grm [], and of course, the ill-famed Kubura [] and Roberta F. [] have shown extreme level of homophobia and Serbophobia that have resulted in many people leaving the paltry so-called Wikipedia in Croatian for Wikipedias in normal (non-Croatian) languages.
I'm sorry if you dont understand croatian language. Source (Slodobna Dalmacija) was misinterpreted. Statement of one man can't be interpreted as attitide of church in Croatia (as IP was writing in the article). That is only reason of reverting: misinterpreted source. Read carefully before.--MaGa (talk) 09:48, 15 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Unlike you, I do not hide behind a proxy, and I don't write lies about other people without any argument (that does not really exist). All about Serbian (and any other) Wikipedias tell them, not me. That is not my problem. Goodbye...--MaGa (talk) 13:30, 15 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Serbian Wikipedia at least has the dignity to allow DISCUSSION on why they are homophobic, whereas you, your pall Roberta F., Kubura, Jure Grm etc. completely remove even comments pointing out your homophobia, as well as anti-Semitism and virulent Serbophobia, in the Talk Pages.
I can draw your attention to one example: the main administrator at Croatian Wikipedia, SpeedyGonsales.
Same-sex marriage - he changed the title of the article into "Marriage and homosexuality", as in that gay marriage only has an appearance of marriage, which made Croatian Wikipedia the only Wikipedia out of some 40 different languages with that aritifical title that disputes its existence.
Gender studies - "translated" into "Gender ideology" on Croatian Wikipedia. He locked and refused that the article can be renamed in accordance with its official name. His comment: "That's an ideology, how good or bad, that's still not known today, but that it is aggressive, i.e. destructive towards the social categories of today - that is a fact." . This means that out of 20 different language Wikipedias, the Croatian one is the only one with that artificial title that disputes its existence.
U ime obitelji/In the name of the Family (an anti-LGBT organization that wants to restrict marriage only to a man and a woman) - he changed a sentence that says "Croatia would join numerous other countries..." into "Croatia would join countries of the Western civilization (Poland, Hungary, Bulgaria, Latvia...) ...that defined marriage as a union between a man and a woman by constitution":
I'm sorry, but this is not someone with a neutral stance towards LGBT themes when it comes to his powers as an administrator of an encyclopedia that wants to gain authority and respect.--Seiya (talk) 07:44, 15 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I find the allegations about homophobia on the Croatian Wikipedia to be founded on the logically incorrect presumption: the critics hold their political views (about same-sex marriage e.g.) to be only one allowed. It is not so: Wikipedia should present both (or all) sides of an argument. And Croatian Wikipedia does it, in all articles mentioned here.
We should be troubled if we read the articles that do not show both sides of an on-going political debate, the articles in case do not fall in that category.
And yes, the left-leaning people in Croatia DOES tend to call people with non-left political stances as "fascists". The "leftist" in Croatia used to rule Croatia very rigidly for decades: we had a totalitarian communist regime, where leftist represented a ruling elite with power to interfere-and-decide with everything (there could not be Wikipedia in such a regime); it is not in dispute. Those times are not so far away; in Croatia (as in other Eastern Europe countries) left wing thinkers and "thinkers" often have a nostalgic view on that time when their ideology decided about life "and everything was so nice".--RadioElectrico (talk) 06:31, 18 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
The Split Pride nucleus of an article has been repeatedly vandalised by the cabal of the so-called administrators terrorising users who posted links to Croatia's own media pointing out to the fact that Roman Catholic Church of Croatia, in violation of the pope's teachings to be loving towards gay people, has called for murder of LGBT individuals.
The so-called admistrators (actually worst scum) of Wikipedia iN Croatian would not let that piece of info stand for longer than 20 minutes:
For many years to abuse the rights Sysop, Bureaucrat and CheckUser of the Croatian Wikipedia. Administrators do it deliberately to the detriment of the project and no one talks about it. --Kolega2357 (talk) 18:56, 14 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Provide examples and also a comparison of abuse of rights at other Wikipedia's to give us a perspective. The frequency and number of alleged abuses and if there was any recourse that was sought through Meta, etc. If you are making claims you need to substantiate them in full, otherwise this is a general statement which should be disregarded. Vodomar (talk) 22:26, 15 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Anyway this is not about user rights on other projects besides the Croatian Wikipedia so do not mix other projects here. What kind of administrator who can not face the truth? --Kolega2357 (talk) 22:40, 15 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Jimmy Wales, founder of Wikipedia: Serbs and Croats shouldn't have separate WikipediasEdit
After reading all that "discussion" above, and some articles on hr i sr wikipedia, I can understand Wales thinking. --184.108.40.206 21:51, 14 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Maybe the NPOV consensus could be reached more easily on common Wikipedia. As it is mostly reached on Balkans topics on English wiki. --GedeonWolf (talk) 22:00, 14 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
No way. This is from sensationalist "Jutarnji list" & they will retract their "interviews" (Sanader affair etc.). But in case Mr.Wales tries to "fuse" Wikipedias- former Croatian Wikipedia would soon transform into another online Croatian encyclopedia, completely independent of Wikipedia. For Croats, it's a win-win situation. We're fed up with tutors, whoever they might be. Mir Harven (talk) 22:34, 14 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
No, you'll get nothing. We'll get printed (and Internet-ready, like Britannica) multivolumninous Croatian enclyclopedia, with good traits of Wikipedia (free edit of "lighter" articles) plus gain re "heavier" scientific & political topics. And we'll be free from tutorship & weird rules. Mir Harven (talk) 23:58, 14 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Those "weird" rules such as NPOV, NOR and VERIFY? I'm sure your "purified" Croatian encyclopedia will be a beacon of light for the unwashed masses. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 08:02, 15 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Again the article from Jutarnji list by the same author (Goran Penić) does not meet minimum journalist criteria. The "interview" is in fact just copy of couple sentences on Jimbo Wales's talk page on meta. (how that could be an "interview"). Jimbo said that Croats and Serbs should have one single wikipedia . However , "jounalist" put the screamy page title "Serbs and Croats may not have separate wikipedias". Again, same spin by Jutarnji list. --Anto (talk) 05:37, 17 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Problem with unified Wikipedia is the language, which is different enough to cause linguistic and stylistic problems (and sometomes even understanding), because we have a bit different grammar and spelling, and also many different words. That would be avoided by having separate Wikipedias with the same content, but in different language. --Marekich (talk) 22:38, 14 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Seems you can't grasp central truths: issues like homosexuality can be resolved (it's not a big deal); issues like WW2, Croatian War on Independence, Operation Storm, Dubrovnik heritage.... cannot be resolved. Not even in eternity. Mir Harven (talk) 22:59, 14 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Issues like homosexuality actually cannot be resolved unless admins stop forcing their bias. The same might be the case for history - if NPOV and referencing would be fully enforced, there would be much less issues with history. Bias/NPOV is the root of all this issues. --Marekich (talk) 23:14, 14 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
You don't get it. Until you own your discourse on everything- you're not free. Wikipedia has shown that it is just a tool for disciplining those who think otherwise. For truly Croatian encyclopedia, we got 5 huge general encyclopedias, plus some other stuff. The rest is, as Napoleon had said: money, money, money. From Wiki, we should retain freedom of editing lighter topics like popular culture. I am not talking about cartoons like derivatives of Wikipedia, but about free serious Croatian encyclopedia. No one shall be our "tutor". No one. Mir Harven (talk) 00:05, 15 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
"For truly Croatian encyclopedia"
You're completely insane. What you're promoting is not "truly Croatian", it's serving your own interests. You're not promoting any kind of freedom but the freedom to censor anything you don't like and spread your homophobic, xenophobic, racist and nationalist views. Your latest comment on the hr.wiki Community portal show that you don't care for the quality standards of information, you clearly stated "If I'm being attacked by LBGTQWZFRP, Istrians, "Serbo-Croats", "yugophiles" then I must be correct". You literally don't care about anything except for standing up against your imaginative enemies and reinforcing your self-serving interests. You're sad, hateful and spiteful. Fejstkajkafski (talk) 01:20, 15 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
No Mir Harven, you're the one who doesn't get it. Croatian Wikipedia is not a Croatian national encyclopedia. It's a Wikipedia in Croatian language. All of the Wikipedias in all languages are supposed to follow the same core principles, and have essentially the same kind of content (with different presentation tailored to local needs and norms). The project's aim is the spreading knowledge and information in a neutral fashion, not particular kind of "truths". The only ones who try to discipline those who think otherwise are you guys, blocking every contributor that is tagged as persona non grata for their non-far-right political positions. Why there are no leftist and left-leaning editors at Croatian Wikipedia anymore? --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 08:02, 15 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Leftists work on Wikipedia in "Serbo Croatian" Language. --Croq (talk) 10:05, 15 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Croatian and Serbian language are similar but not the same. They never were. You can't just talk about language. You must know basics of croatian and serbian history, as well as literature. This is not the place to prove this. But it is sad that people who don't understand this (like Jimmy or like many commentators here) force their opinion as only one that is true and valid. Serbo-croatian language existed only in yugoslav's minds. They made pretty much damage to croatian language. And when I said that you should know some history as well... If you do, than you know that Croats speak croatian, not serbo-croatian. Croatian language doesn't have anything to do with serbian language. They have copied (plagiarized) our ortography... So, serbian language has a lot to do with croatian. Don't forget, it is very often that they say that some of our cities, famous and important writers etc., are Serbs, and they belong to Serbia. This originates from their extreme nationalism throughout 18.-20.century. Some of their historians and polititians have said that there are no Croats in Dalmatia, or in B&H, because those people don't talk much different than Serbs. Many misinformations from serbian scholars, polititians, academics, writers etc. are taken for granted. And you can tell that just by looking on english wikipedia. They referr to some foreign scientists and scholars when quoting serbian or communist propaganda against Croatia or Croats. Croatia was very isolated, and gained independence in 90's. But before that, informations for western universities came from Belgrade. No wonder there are so much lies when it comes to history or politics. To conclude: Croats speak croatian. Serbs speak serbo-croatian. Of course, you will never hear them saying that. But Croatian is the basic language of entire region. Not Serbo-croatian. Just croatian.
Another proof would be - dialects. Other dialects that belong to croatian, but not to serbian. And cyrilic scripture was as well croatian, abandoned long time ago. But this is not the topic to prove this. --Zekoslavac (talk) 11:42, 17 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Oh, that is such a bunch of crap that a person who has a reasoning ability would never write it -- unless with an intent to troll and provoke.
All Stokavian is Serbian, and all kajkavian is Slovene. Croatian is ONLY Chakavian dialect.
So stop that nonsense.
Although serbo-crotism is annoying, you're wrong. Serbs speak Serbian. Mir Harven (talk) 21:16, 17 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
(Ignoring the "Communist propaganda" conspiracy). Linguistically, modern standard Bosnian, Croatian and Serbian are indeed one language. Almost perfect machine translation among them could be done simply by substituting words that are different (including Ijekavian/Ekavian pairs); In perhaps 5% of the cases syntactic and semantic context resolution will have to be used to disambiguate polysemous homographs (e.g. sto "hundred" in BCS and "table" only in BS, with only Croatian preserving the word-final -l in the nominative singular, that makes appearance in oblique cases). At any case, any kind of "collaborate" Wikipedia shouldn't be pushing for some kind of a merged standard (like we have English Wikipedia combining American and Commonwealth spellings and meanings in a single article), but all of the standards simultaneously - e.g. three different tabs for viewing/editing, with synching done through machine translation with or without human oversight. However, that would require both modifications to the MediaWiki and a development of the MT engine, none of which exist.
Also - having, or better said - forcing, Bosnian, Croatian and Serbian editors to cooperate on a single wiki would probably increase the quality of all history and culture-related articles with respect to policies such as NPOV. It would also eliminate an enormous amount of duplication that exists among B/C/S/SC wikipedias which have tens of thousands of articles copy/pasted from one another (with minor "corrections" of course, with original editors often vociferously "protesting" at the talk pages of the author which shamelessly "stole" the result of their hard work). If the WMF's goal is simply to maximize the spread of knowledge and information in Serbo-Croatian varieties, this is probably the way how it should be done. Synergistic approach would be beneficial with respect to both the number and quality of articles. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 13:10, 17 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
1) the best linguists think otherwise: http://ihjj.hr/ , http://www.isj-sanu.rs/ But- no need to talk to you about it, you're mentally-emotionally blocked re this question. 2) but, for the sake of argument, if this is indeed so: how come that nowhere in the world this imaginary "language" is spoken ? Pluricentric languages have the same name, never mind the differences: Spanish, English, German, French,.. There is not a single country in the world which has this imaginary "BCS", "Serbo-Croatian" as the official language. And- there had never been such a country. Neither in both Yugoslavias, nor- back in time- in Croatia within Austro-Hungarian Empire, where language was officially named simply- Croatian. So again, your serbo-croatist delusions are not supported by reality. Hmmm.... where are published grammars, dictionaries, orthographies of this "Serbo-Croatian" quasi-language ? In Croatia ? Serbia ? Bosnia ? Montenegro ? Mars ? Andromeda ? ...Mir Harven (talk) 21:26, 17 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I hope that you know what bosanski lonac means in croatian slang? I hope that you also know what vodu vari, vodu ladi, ali kiseline nikako means...--MaGa (talk) 19:39, 17 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
As we can see, there is an "Serbo-Croatian" wikipedia even now: sh.wikipedia.org/. Kolega2357, author of 16 edits on this page (in this moment) is very active there. They have 89.234 articles, today.
The articles on sh.wikipedia are either in Croatian, or in Serbian language, seldomly in both languages (a speaker of any of these languages who claims he/she cannot see the difference, is bluntly lying). I am not aware of any public attack on Serbo-Croatian Wikipedia: in Croatia and in Bosnia and Herzegovina everyone is too aware of the emotional hardships of the people that identified themselves as "Yugoslavians" (6% of the total population of that communist federation). But now they come with the demand to dismantle Croatian Wikipedia. Why Croatian? Because the Croats were the ones to invent the Yugoslavian idea, back in the XIX. century (no one else took the idea for serious, then); and the "true believers" of "Yugoslavism" are to be found primarily among Croats and Serbs living in Croatia (not in great numbers, though). It is so even now: their number is small, their political inclinations tend to be far - left ("Yugoslavism" is an outcome of a communist totalitarian state, after all), but they bitterly resent bare existence of Croatia (or Serbia, or Bosnia, or Slovenia ...) as an independent state. I believe the idea of fighting against Serbian Wikipedia will be seen as a joke in Serbia: no one has ever taken Yugoslavian idea for serious there.
The relations between Serbian, Croat and Bosnian language are pretty much the same as in the case of Danish, Swedish and Norwegian. I will borrow from the article "Danish language" on en.wikipedia:
Danish is largely mutually intelligible with Norwegian and Swedish. Proficient speakers of any of the three languages can understand the others, though studies have shown that speakers of Norwegian generally understand both Danish and Swedish far better than Swedes or Danes understand each other. Both Swedes and Danes also understand Norwegian better than they understand each other's languages.
You can replace "Norwegian" with "Bosnian", and remaining two languages with "Croatian" and "Serbian".
And, is there anyone claiming existence of a "Danish - Swedish language"? Is there anyone trying to merge Wikipedias in respective languages? No. Mybe "Serbo - Croatians" should teach "Dano - Swedish" speakers ...--RadioElectrico (talk) 13:01, 18 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Danish and Swedish are vastly more different than Serbo-Croatian varieties. On English Wiktionary, even two versions of Norwegian are kept separated because their differences couldn't be reconciled within a single dictionary entry. For Serbo-Croatian varieties this is not the case. The grammar (i.e. the core of the language) is the same - nouns, adjectives and verbs infect the same. Paradigms of the verb "to be", "to have", "to go", "to eat" are the same. Nouns inflect in seven cases and two numbers, adjectives in seven cases, two numbers and three genders, verbs in two numbers three persons and several tenses (depending on how you define tense) - with exactly the same set of inflectional endings, in many different patterns. Phonemic inventory is the same. Accentual system is the same. "Translation" among them can for the most part be done by simple search/replace of strings representing differences in vocabulary. This is a linguistic fact and not the result of "Yugoslav ideology".
Merging, if necessary, has to be done by simultaneously having all three (or four, with nascent "Montengrin language") standard languages on the same article being edited/presented separately in three (or four) tabs, with changes to one being machine-translated into others. Whether the readers imagine their standardized idiom to be a separate language or not, doesn't really matter. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 14:30, 18 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Danish and Swedish are less different than Serbian and Croatian, but you push your sysop POV on English Wiktionary and put it as some "evidence" here. You put label "Serbo-Croatian" on all Croatian words there, and on all Serbian words, whether or not they are used in both languages. You hardly push your POV, ignoring all users who tell you that you sholdn't be doing that. And, in most cases blocking them. Previously you try to humiliate them on personal level. So, en Wiktionary is the only modern dictionary that says there are no Croatian or Serbian but only Serbo-Croatian. The only modern dictionary that says there is "serbo-croatian" is only en.wiktionary, because of your POV. Linguists accept that it is a faild project of Yugoslav regimes.
The fact is, Serbo-Croatian never existed. Yugoslavs never managed to make it, to deny existance of Croatian language, despite having strong regimes with secret police for the interior "enemies" and diplomacy for the international serbo-croatian agenda. Despite burning books about Croatian language.
You may try to make some new-old artificial "Serbo-Croatian" standard. That's ok for me if you don't try to make that new language mixture by denying the existance of Croatian language. That's the difference between esperanto for example and serbo-croatian. Esperanto doesn't try to deny some language so it could exist. That's why that project is noble. But Serbo-Croatians try to virtualy delete Croatian so their artificial "serbo-croatian" could exist. That's what is wrong with it. That's after all why this witch-hunt against Croatian Wikipedia is runed by users from "serbo-croatian" wikipedia. Chvrka (talk) 12:22, 25 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Wikipedia is a non-commercial project of Wikimedia Fondation. It is a language based project, and there are more than 700 projects made by volunteers, which spend their unpaid time to write and to make the whole "knowledge of the human race available for everyone, all over the world". The central part is maded by few projects like en.wikipedia.org, de.wikipedia.org, meta.wikimedia.org, commons.wikimedia.org...
For usual, the Wikimedia Fondation is owner of all projects and domains, no matter in which language they are written.
There is a project above those rules, so called "Croatian Wikipedia", for real Wikipedia on Croatian language. If we forget the five pillars of wikipedia, this is the only project with "own" rules. The first step into the "country-owned" Wikipedia are national insignia on the main page. There is no other project (between more than 700!) having national insignia on the main page, but "Croatian Wikipedia" is not made for everyone who would like to contribute in that language as others, but for all Croats no matter if they can speak or write this language.
The specifications of this project are:
1. Use Croatian sources, even if they are wrong or political (pages without impressum or possibillity to contact owner, broken rule: neutral point of view)
2. If you want to contribute, don´t even try to use some words of familiar languages like Serbian or Bosnian, otherwise you will be blocked from editing for infinite (broken rule: assume good faith)
3. Dont even think about posting crtical view on a "Croatian" article or you will be called such names as proserbian, probosnian, nationalistic... (broken rule: assume good faith, no personal attack)
4. To get a sysop flag on "Croatian" Wikipedia, you need to join a group of "real leaders". This is just possible if you write hard core nationalistic articles. The second step is a invitation on the privat channel on IRC freenode server called #PGC. Once there, you will get all informations about "persons non grata" and will be informed about steps you should made to support the view of PGC community.
As we can see, the number of active editors peaked in the mid-2009, and after that everything went downhill, to 10-15 active editors that we have today. If we extrapolated the growth trend up to the mid-2009, Croatian Wikipedia should now be having 60-70 active editors.
This evident drop of active editors is a direct result of inaction/inability by the Foundation and stewards to interefere with unsolvable issues at local wikipedias. Problems with the editorial policy and the abuse of sysop privileges at Croatian Wikipedia were known since mid-late 2008. Only in 2009 after the local ArbCom was dissolved (or better said, dismantled), has the ingroup of nationalist editors tightened its ranks, and become even more abusive and POV-pushing. Liberal-minded editors were driven out one by one, and with no one left to balance out the articles dealing with controversial topics, we end up with media scandals such as this one.
In my opinion, by far the greatest loss for Croatian Wikipedia is the figure of ~50 active editors that are not editing there today, and which should be. Many of them are blocked and should have their blocks lifted (if unexpired), and many of them left after encountering the toxic editing atmosphere, where every single one of their edits is closely monitored for trivial "mistakes", after which they are handed so-called "yellow cards" and "red cards" and eventually blocked. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 08:43, 15 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Yes it is quite "disturbing"! Compared to the en.wikipedia.org project which had peaked in 2007 and is in steady decline ever since see: http://stats.wikimedia.org/EN/ChartsWikipediaEN.htm#2 . Also have a look at Wikipedia:Modelling_Wikipedia's growth. Aslo have a look across the different languages, there has been a steady decline in the number of active editors across the board: see http://stats.wikimedia.org/EN/TablesWikipediansEditsGt5.htm . If we look across the board there is a crisis in the Wikipedia project: For instance in the English language wikipedia, there were 44045 editors in June 2007 and by June 2013 there are only 30978 active editors. Many other project face similar issue, it is a typical producer consumer problem, but it also indicates that the Wikipedia project has reached a maturity level meaning that most articles have been written and there is not much to be added. Vodomar (talk) 23:19, 16 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
English Wikipedia's number of active editors has a very gentle drop 2007-2013, to 2006 number of editors. Croatian Wikipedia's drop post-2009 is sharp to the 2005 number of editors, indicating that we're dealing with a disturbance rather than a typical stabilization trend.
Additional clues can be gather by comparing side by side the detailed chart of Very active Wikipedians from your link of Serbian and Croatian Wikipedias - wheras Serbian Wikipedia has a steady growth until 2013, Croatian Wikipedia hits rock bottom in 2011 (11 active editors), with currently that number oscillating in the range 15-20. Serbian Wikipedia has a mildly larger population base (about 30%) - but that hardly accounts for more than double the number of active editors. We're dealing with something else here - abysmal editorial policy that drives away content creators. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 00:21, 17 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Yes, the sharp drop was the cause of editors splintering from the hr.wikipedia.org project and moving over to the sh.wikipedia.org project, that is why it had a large sharp drop. This was due to ideological views held by the splinter group mostly in terms or language like yourself Ivan Štambuk, a shameless and tireless promoter of an amalgam language. 220.127.116.11 21:06, 17 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
From my understanding, those editors that ended up on sh.wiki (on which I do not edit at all), ended up there independently. There was no "splintering" - each and every one of them was individually driven off through blocks and intimidation. Furthermore, none of them actually expressed ideological support for Serbo-Croatian "ideology", as you write it. They all simply wanted a place to channel their creative efforts in writing articles, without toxic atmosphere where they are perpetually scrutinized for small "mistakes" which accrue as yellow and red cards, and eventually blocks. If you inspect their sh.wiki contributions, you will find out that they have not changed their written register, and are in fact writing in perfectly normal modern standard Croatian.
Regarding Serbo-Croatian as an "amalgam" language - never did I promote it. I am simply reminding all of the brainwashed nationalists who apparently cannot come to terms with the fact that modern standard Bosnian, Croatian and Serbian are all based on the same subdialect of the same dialect, and have 99% identical grammar, which makes them essentially one and the same languages, vocabulary differences aside. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 00:58, 18 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Yes you do promote the amalgam language look at your user page on wikipedia, you contributions your rhetoric of Serbo-Croatian language your evangelic zeal that you use in your discussion. Your finger pointing now at a nationalistic problem is nothing but a disguise and veneer that you use to. Look at your own statement that you never promote the Serbo-Croatian language, but you then claim that the languages Bosnian, Croatian and Serbian are all based on the same dialect that millions of people have just been brainwashed and conditioned to believe that they speak a different language. In the case of splintering, yes there were a number of users who were contributing to the Croatian wikipedia who ended up on the sh wikipedia to promote their POV of the world, and if they are happy over there I wish them all the best. Vodomar (talk) 21:55, 18 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
You don't appear to comprehend what the word amalgam mean - I suggest you look it up in the dictionary. Indeed, millions of people are brainwashed into thinking that trivial differences among Bosnian/Croatian/Serbian standard idioms legitimize the notion of a "separate language", while at the same time the unintelligible dialects of Čakavian and and Kajkavian are all "Croatian language". You might wanna check out my user page here on Meta BTW - it contains a quote more than a century old, long before Yugoslavia and Communism took hold. The opinion of the masses, colored by nationalist and separatist zeal, is irrelevant - scientific method has its own set of rules and procedures.
The excuses you offer to the editors you and your clique drove off ("I wish them all the best") are pathetic. You are the reason this scandal broke, and why the chart above has such shape. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 23:31, 18 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
More and more medias keep talking how bad our wiki is... here is newest article published by Novi list which is not yellow stamp. Author is HINA, (Croatian News Agencyis) the national government-owned news agency of Croatia. --Anton008 09:46, 15 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
From that article, historian Snježana Koren of the University of Zagreb
"To su tipovi tekstova koje se mogu naći na strancima marginalnih udruga i pokreta, ali za njih ne bi smjelo biti mjesta na wikipediji, kazala je, dodavši da autori ponegdje nisu u stanju razlučiti dobro od zla.:
"Those are the types of texts you can find on the pages of fringe communities and movements, but there shold be no place for that on Wikipedia, says the historian, adding that in some instances the line between good and evil is blurred [on the Croatian Wikipedia]".
"To se ne može drugačije okarakterizirati nego kao ustaštvo"
Novi list ist extreme left paper. Where are difflinks? I woul like to se a proof that the attacked admins did something wrong.--Croq (talk) 09:59, 15 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
"I would like to see a proof that the attacked admins did something wrong". You haven't read any example from the above text, haven't you?--Seiya (talk) 10:15, 15 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Examples have already been shown of administrators being homophobic, administrators stifling NPOV editing by pushing the revisions they like, showing diametrical opposition with scientific views of the international community as well as examples of their lack of good will (discussions in their Community portal that regards this as a "fight for the country" mentioning war songs, etc.). Fejstkajkafski (talk) 10:21, 15 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Also from the article:
Historian Josip Jurcevic did not comment to Hina on the specific allegations in the Croatian Wikipedia, which he considers "an area of freedom of research and thought," but stated that "the main motive of violent attacks is not intended to Repair any inaccuracies in these articles, but it is a destructive attack from radical unanimity positions which does not allow legitimate pluralist debate on any subject."
"In democratic Croatia moved the complete scientific structure of the totalitarian communist period, and brought with it and its historical apologetic quasi-truth's. No secret that all the social sciences, art production and media in communist Yugoslavia had socialist realist conception, which meant that their main task was of extolling the Yugoslav communist regime, and severe accrue with each diversity" said Jurcevic.
He holds that the worst affected by the fundamental research and creative freedom, and people who have tried to work, explore and create in accordance with basic human rights and objective criteria.
"Unfortunately, the situation in the formal plural democratic Croatia has not significantly changed over the past quarter century. Unanimity structure in the social sciences and the general public speech preserved most of its institutional power," said Jurcevic.
He believes that due to information technology and global circumstances created Croatian version of Wikipedia as an area of freedom of research and the opinions of younger educated generation.
"Because they are out of control of the unanimity system and begin to seriously erode the single-mindedness to them according to the old totalitarian methods of attack its destructive power to enforce them in outdated neo-Communist Yugoslav tor or destroyed. This is the essence of the attack on Wikipedia, and everything else is almost irrelevant details", concluded the scientist.--Rovoobo (talk) 10:39, 15 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
He seems to be parroting the same line as Croatian Wikipedians "This is all a Communist conspiracy against Croatdom, yada yada". Considering that he is a far-right sympathizer (w:Josip Jurčević claims that he has been chosen in 2006 as "the new voice of the Croatian right"), of course he will be sympathetic to your cause. Which doesn't invalidate any of the serious accusations of bias and abuse permeating Croatian wiki. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 11:01, 15 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Why don't you just check the facebook page of those crusaders against croatian wikipedia, and their comments, just to see how much communism there really is. They sound just like the youth of socialdemocrat party (ex communist party). And why is to some of you everything you disagree with - far right? Jurčević far right? No, that is not true. I know his work, his claims... he was called for one of experts in Hague, his works are rarely disputed... If someone just wants to point out the truth and what is logical, that doesn't make him far right. --Zekoslavac (talk) 11:51, 17 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
My cause? Where he "claims that he has been chosen in 2006 as "the new voice of the Croatian right"? On his wiki page its written: "The Nacional newspaper described him in 2006 as the new voice of the Croatian right." And Snježana Koren seems to be parroting the same line as the Facebook guy.--RovooboTalk 11:26, 15 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Except that Snježana Koren is a respected scientist, and Jurčević's interview doesn't even parse as semantically valid Serbo-Croatian. He doesn't comment any of the actual content that is under the dispute, but is simply parroting the conspiracy line of arguments. I had to re-read it to make sure that the part where he denounces attacks on "free-thinking" Croatian Wikipedia - it sounded like an example of Poe's law. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 14:43, 16 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
We already have 3 tactics constantly used here to whitewash the problems of administrators on Croatian Wikipedia: 1) it is a Yugoslav/Communist/Mason etc. conspiracy 2) People are jealous of Croatian Wikipedia 3) Diversion tactics. Rovoobo's last post was a 3) Diversion tactic - flood the text as much as you like, quote controversial historians that say otherwise, but specific examples have already been shown of administrators being homophobic, administrators stifling NPOV editing by pushing the revisions they like, showing diametrical opposition with scientific views of the international community as well as examples of their lack of good will. Try addressing that issue.--Seiya (talk) 11:16, 15 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Gee. I have posted views of a historian from that article just as user Fejstkajkafski posted another one before too. I don't see you or Stambuk commenting his post.--RovooboTalk 11:26, 15 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
On Jimbo's talkpage User:Vodomar has explained to me how the only reason why Jutarnji list is "attacking" Croatian Wikipedia, is due to a collusion between the Croatian government and the media magnate Ninoslav Pavić, to serve as a diversion for some tax cuts . And this guy is a sysop and a CU there. What a joke. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 11:47, 15 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Speedy and Roberta supported with Kubura, Zeljko, Vodomar, Braco and others turned Wikipedia in Croatian language into their private project (above mentioned PGC group), and they decide about everything on Hr.Wiki. I see here some comments posted by Croq, an interesting case from Croatian Wiki. His case can show you standard there. His Croatian is bad, his grammar is bad, and he needs constant corrections about language. But, at the same time, he is extreme nationalist and he will easily delete well referenced parts of an article and insert his nationalist propaganda referenced with link to extreme right wing portal. Therefore, he was promoted to autopatrol, and his contributions nobody check there any more. This example is only one, but maybe most extreme one.
Any difflinks for (what you say my "extreme nationalism") ASAP please! --Croq (talk) 17:17, 15 September 2013 (UTC)17:17, 15 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I want to comment on to this:To get a sysop flag on "Croatian" Wikipedia, you need to join a group of "real leaders". This is just possible if you write hard core nationalistic articles. The second step is a invitation on the privat channel on IRC freenode server called #PGC. Once there, you will get all informations about "persons non grata" and will be informed about steps you should made to support the view of PGC community.
Although this is truth, it is not whole thruth. There is a certain number of sysops still there who opppose PGC group, and those sysops have their own set of mind. Only problem is that they do not want to quarrel with PGC group and their supporters (like Mir Harven who surfaces every time when Roberta needs him). They are in reality only hope for any action to succed. Any arbitration or any action taken to fix the problems on Hr.Wiki must have local support or it will certanly fail.
Štambuk, if you need me and my experience of an ex sysop you can contact me by sending me mail (btw, we contacted before). --B. Ivsi (talk) 12:45, 15 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Then why don't they voice their opinions here? Why don't they ask for flag removal on Meta if they don't want to be associated with the PGC ingroup during this scandal? They are all guilty if they stay silent. <redacted> and his friend signed the "letter of refutation" in the name of all administrators of Croatian Wikipedia. If I were a sysop at hr.wiki at this moment, I'd expressly ask to be removed from that position. At least until tomorrow when the legal department of EPH will find out that their flagship newspaper has been called novinarsko žutilo that spreads degutantne besmislice on every single page of a website that has 28k hits per hour, and someone called administratori hrvatske wikipedije is signed. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 14:25, 15 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Most Croatian college students use English Wikipedia because most of us see Croatian Wikipedia as a poor source of (suspicious) information. And most of students know enough English to at least understand most of texts. Also, most Croatians, even students, are not familiar with rules of academic writing, listing sources, copyright, so our Wikipedia is a mess in that part. I think that no Croatian student will miss Croatian wikipedia if it will be shut down. Just please, don't merge it with Serbian because it doesn't make sense. Most of my generation are only able to understand general everyday Serbian language, we can watch movies and read newspaper, but when it comes to anything more specialized - texts about physics, chemistry, or even just recipes for food we stumble upon unknown and strange words. So, either do something about our Wikipedia to ban all extreme nationalists forever or just shut it down. After all, the only people who care about Croatian Wikipedia are extreme nationalists and political content is the most edited one. As example, just look at the length of articles about some controversial political topics and compare it to articles about physics, computer science, chemistry, or anything else that is actually useful to people. Look at article about atom (I think one of the most fundamental and needed articles) on English wikipedia, look at its length and the number of references and then compare it to poor article on Croatian wikipedia. Also, a lot of articles are not written in appropriate style, instead they are written in newspaper style, or personal blog style full of provocative titles and personal opinions. The only way the Croatian wikipedia makes sense is if it attracts authors who will write good quality articles equally about every field of science and culture, in academic style, neutral and full of references, or if it a direct translation of English wikipedia - Student, 15.09.2013
The whole idea of reading an encyclopedia is, among other things, to learn "unknown and strange words". That's what reading and learning is all about! You cannot use it as an argument for having several encyclopedias for the same language. Someone who is not a nuclear physicist and reads about the subject for the first time will encounter a lot of "unknown and strange words" even if he is a Croat reading an article about nuclear physics on Wikipedia in Croatian. If it ever comes to joining the all four Wikipedias (yes, there are FOUR Wikipedias for the same Serbo-Croatian language!), users will end up with a more objective (different points of view are good for objectivity) source of knowledge. Perhaps many people won't like it - mainly because they have been breastfed by nationalistic ideologies during the past two decades - but it will be a good way to slowly start normalizing the whole "four languages vs. one language" issue. I suggest that a committee should be formed to address the issue. Perhaps some of the leading world linguists will be willing to assist the Wikimedia Foundation in resolving this matter? Perhaps this is a new, revolutionary, way to tackle nationalism at its roots (one nation, one language, one territory, one culture, one religion etc.). ---- Francis Christian (talk) 17:11, 15 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
What on earth do you know about Croatian language ? Evidently- not much. To quote another source: http://www.hercegbosna.org/STARO/engleski/croatian_language.html After the collapse of Communism and the birth of Croatian independence (1991), situation with regard to the Croatian language has become stabilized. Finally freed from political pressures and de-Croatization impositions, Croatian linguists expanded the work on various ambitious programs and intensified their studies on current dominant areas of linguistics: mathematical and corpus linguistics, textology, psycholinguistics, language acquisition and historical lexicography. From 1991 numerous representative Croatian linguistic works were published, among them four voluminous monolingual dictionaries of contemporary Croatian, various specialized dictionaries and normative manuals (the most representative being the issue of Institute for Croatian Language and Linguistics). For a curious bystander, probably the most noticeable language feature in Croatian society was re-Croatization of Croatian language in all areas, from phonetics to semantics- and most evidently in everyday vocabulary. Some observers with Yugoslav affinities deplored such a course of events. But, having in mind the vocal silence of such “multiculturalist” proponents of Serbo-Croatian when Croatian orthographies were literally burnt in auto-da-fes (1971), one can only conclude with regard to the death of this “language”: qualis vita, et mors ita !Mir Harven (talk) 22:13, 15 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Mir Harven mentions an interesting phrase: re-Croatization of Croatian language. In practice, this means "let's invent as much word as possible, to make Croatian distinct from Serbian". During the 1990s when Croatia was still under international sanctions due to the politics of isolationism pursued by Franjo Tuđamn, many Croatian linguists actively promoted such policy. Of course, the common people not only ignored it, but ridiculed it. You can't change basic vocabulary of a language by Diktat.
However, the clique running Croatian Wikipedia still somehow believes that we're at war with Serbia, and that they have a "sacred duty" to promote such words, even if they aren't used by anyone. The most bizarre example is the word for sports, which is on Croatian Wikipedia translated as šport, instead of the usual sport. I have never heard anyone actually using the word šport in my life. However, since Serbs only use sport and not šport (which is a borrowing from German, the former one is from English), they systematically promote the word šport (and its derivations such as športaš, športski..) in every single sports-related article.
It's not my text (although I agree with most of it) . What's controversial ? Language policy in both Yugoslavias has been geared towards suppression of Croatian (for instance, incarceration & later murder of dr. Ivan Šreter is one drastic example: https://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hrvatski_jezi%C4%8Dni_unitarizam , https://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_%C5%A0reter). Any language which has passed through a period of suppression simply purifies itself of idioms that are forced upon it during periods of repression. It frequently does even when no repression was present: for instance, dismissal of Persian & Arabic words from Hindi or lanugage purification of Turkish language from Arabic loan-words after Kemal-pasha reforms. I'm writing this just as a ref for clueless people, not to argue with you about anything. Mir Harven (talk) 14:23, 16 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
The disturbing part is that editors that use common words as opposed to those "pure Croatian" get stalked by User:Kubura or User:Bugoslav who tell them that they should be using this word, and not that word. Suffice is to say that this kind of language purism (and separatism!) is exclusively connected with the far-right, and that no one in their right might would go around telling others how to write their mother tongue. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 08:16, 16 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I don't have a problem with nationalism as you can probably see in my comment (hope my English was good enough to understand it, if it's hard to understand, sorry). I in fact, as a Croatian, don't have a problem with discontinuing Croatian Wikipedia at all, because again, to repeat, I think it is mostly an unorganized mess lacking real encyclopedic referenced content written in academic style. I don't have a problem with shutting down Croatian wikipedia and only Serbian wikipedia existing. I also wouldn't read it as I am used to English wikipedia. But it would be wrong to shut down both Wikipedias and merge them into one because there are many little differences in our languages that simply sound wrong to the other side. In differenth stail Vikipidia vould yu able to rid be? An automated tool could probably be built which would do near perfect machine translations between Croatian and Serbian. There's more to it than just converting cyrilic to latin, there are some sentence structures, different ways of transliteration, different academic words that need to be translated in seven different grammatical cases, and so on... But a group of great programmers combined with linguists from both sides would be able to identify all differences and build such a tool. As for lot of "unknown and strange words" - it's not problem that they are "unknown and strange", the problem is that an article about physics/chemistry in Croatian and in Serbian have two different sets of unknown and strange words and there is no point in Croatian student to use them in his Croatian academic environment because no classmates would understand him. If I need to learn new unknown words, I rather choose to learn new unknown English words. Croatian court translators cannot translate English legal documents to Serbian. They can try, but every Serbian would notice a ton of errors and only-Croatian vocabulary and would know that it was just a Croatian trying to guess Serbian. Same goes with Serbians. They can understand and they can talk (about everyday things) and we can understand each other (I talk in Croatian, he/she talks in Serbian), but if I try to fake my Croatian into Serbian, all Serbs will notice. Merging both Wikipedias to one in "Serbocroatian" would probably mean death to both of them.
I read the whole discussion. I haven't seen any sustainable argument against sysops of Wikipedia in Croatian. But I see much of hate against it. I understand that Croatians and Serbians had war, the real one in recent history but still, I can't figure out why those from Serbia who don't contribute to Croatian Wikipedia have desire to harm it by spreading false accusations. Croatians won their independance from Yugoslavia where Serbians were noumerous, so what? You can't change that by harming Wikipedia in Croatian where it writes that attack from Serbia was aggression. The users from Serbian Wikipedia seem to be the loudest in all this attacks on Wikipedia in Croatian. Isn't that weird?
Sensational yellow press Jutarnji list and their former employee minister Jovanovic can not be an adequate reason to put some sanctions against Croatian Wikipedia sysops. There must be arguments. And there is no real one. Much of lies obviously being lies. They write there is homofobia but if you look closer you see great collaboration of sysops in CW with LGBT activists.
Looks like someone who wants Wikipedia in Croatian dead trying to destabilise the project by removing it's sysops. It's a small project. Be aware of that. Community gave sysop tools to those who show that they deserve it based on their hard work. Community gave them that tools to defend them from disturbing (that often comes from Serbia in form of vandalization). They are doing a good job. It's not the best project in Wikimedia world, but it's good, very good. 18.104.22.168 00:17, 16 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
3) Diversion tactics again. You too haven't read a single example above, haven't you? An administrator (!) has a photo of an Axis collaborator on his wall, and you think that's normal? An administrator (!) refuses to accept the existence of gender studies (so he invents the title "gender ideology") and you think that's normal? Well, in that case, I think you shouldn't have anything against an Arbitration. In fact, you should condone it, because it will review the administrators on Croatian Wikipedia, find nothing and honorably acquit them. So, let's start with it if you are so sure of their innocence.--Seiya (talk) 07:53, 16 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I'm Croatian, not a Serb. The same applies to users Rjecina2, Tvrtko26, Seiya, Marekich, Fejstkajkafski, Timbouctou, GregorB, GedeonWolf, Ante Perkovic and Pavlemocilac that have commented the issues in a negative light. So your whole theory on the Serbian-organized "conspiracy" falls to pieces.
This is not about sysops in person, but about their tactics to scare off non-nationalist editors and subtly promote Ustashi ideology. As a result the whole project is suffering from a systematic bias in countless historical articles, and the lack of editors contributing in the scientific disciplines and humanities. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 08:02, 16 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I don't care what nationaly you are, no one cares about that. The question is: What wikipedia editions do users who attack Croatian Wikipedia sysops contribute to? The loudest of those contribute to Wikipedia in Serbian or Serbo-Croatian. For where their treasure is, there their heart is also. We all know there is a competition beetween Croatian and Serbian Wikipedia. Which will be better, with more articles. Serbian has more articles, but people relie Croatian Wikipedia more, read it more that Serbian one.
Yes, this is personal attack on sysops of Croatian Wikipedia. Those are the ones that put the most effort in the project and removing then would harm the project terribly. I think you know that. 22.214.171.124 13:04, 16 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
How can you say it's not personal attack when you (exactly you) publish their personal names here in the discussion. When in the same time their personal names are being published by the yellow press and people are threating them, publishing theirs home adresses on facebook and writing messages that "Croatian Wikipedia will be another Serbian Wikipedia soon". You know all that and you still are saying that there is no personal attack?
I doesn't matter what project we come from. The point was that we are not Serbs, nor do we contribute to Serbian Wikipedia, which makes your little "it's all a Serbian conspiracy" theory lunatic blather. The reason why we don't contribute to Croatian Wikipedia anymore is because many of us have been blocked under absurd excuses, and the project has toxic editing atmosphere were a coterie of far-right extremists sets the tone for discussions and resolves any dispute using the method "shut up or you'll be blocked". BTW, I have probably added more quality (referenced, science-related) content to Croatian Wikipedia then any of you.
Their names were published in the media, they decided to disclose their identities by themselves years ago.
The argument that they are "irreplaceable" is laughable. Do you know who is irreplaceable? Dozens of content creators that you have driven away over the years. People like hr:Suradnik:Orijentolog that have written hundreds of high-quality (B-class and above) articles over the years, and who do not edit there anymore because they fell out of favor with <redacted>'s ingroup. (Orijentolog is now at the Serbo-Croatian Wikipedia). Nobody is going to miss a dozen Ustashi sympathizers who imagine themselves to be the protectors of hrvatstvo. In fact, the damage that you've caused by will take years to salvage. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 14:33, 16 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Ivan, I will be very short: don't talk nonsense. Orijentolog is blocked for one reason: attack on me and my family. Clear enough? End of story.--MaGa (talk) 17:27, 16 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
What attack? Your block summary says something vague about "ignoring instructions", and the the preceding discussion on his talk page is filled with your arrogant threats ("I have plenty of cards") of yellow and red card about some issues regarding categorization of articles. Is this how you treat a user who has for four years made 20k edits, and wrote hundreds of high-quality articles on Ancient Near East and Middle East? --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 18:10, 16 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Read carefully block summary (do not read what suits you): osobni napadi (ili napadačko ponašanje): ignoriranje uputa. I will not explain any details to you. Ask him if you want to know what he has wrote to me.--MaGa (talk) 19:23, 16 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
On the Croatian Wikipedia all normal users always assume bad intentions of the administrator lie to vandals. Do not exceed more and more users in Serbo-Croatian Wikipedia without having to suffer the administrators who abuse them. --Kolega2357 (talk) 19:37, 16 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Well the first part (before the colon) was chosen from the drop-down list of block summaries, isn't it? You specifically typed "ignoring instructions" as the blocking reason, and given that his talk page offers no offending diffs or policies allegedly violated, and the preceding discussion refers to a dispute involving categories, the only thing that one can assume is that the block was related to that. Furthermore, if we're indeed dealing with personal threats as you claim (and which I can't see where), you'd be emotionally compromised to impose such severe punishment (infinite block). It should've been handled by an uninvolved administrator.
At any case, the exact details of his case are not important. I was merely making a point, how valuable editors get driven away for no clear reasons. Issues that should be solved through discussion are solved by blocks and by not assuming good faith. Such irresponsible behavior by admins is the reason of such a striking drop of active editors sine 2009. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 21:02, 16 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
What would explain the fall in the number of editors in other wikipedia's. For instance the number of editors on en.wikipedia.org peaked in June 2007 and has been in fall ever since, now there are close to 10,000 less editors then before. German wiki peaked in 2007 and in fall after that, Japanese wiki in 2008 and in fall after that, Russian peaked in 2010 and in fall after that, list goes on. Probably it has to do more with project maturity. Vodomar (talk) 23:28, 16 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
The User:Zeljko/Жељко Тодоровић persistently removes reference to the Pope speaking in favour of gay rights on an LGBT article on Serbian Wiki. He allies with a small circle of allies and vandalises the page repatedly.
And why exactly is he doing that? Perhaps in order to make Serbian Wiki appear as hideously inadequate as Croatian Wiki? Just guessing...
They are not same person. They just have same name. And views, partially. -- Bojan Talk 11:34, 16 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Wrong, Bojan. That is one and the same person. Therefore the purported Serbian Жељко Тодоровић uses clearly Croatian forms like "требаш поштовати", "требаш се фокусирати" и "То шта су рекли", only written in Cyrillic.
A native speaker of the Serbian version of Serbo-Croat will never say something like this, as it is distinctly Croatian in "требаш" and distinctly a speaker of the Croatian version of Serbo-Croat impersonating a speaker of the Serbian version in "[т]о шта су рекли", i.e. hyper-replacement of Croatian sole form "што/što" with the usual but not exclusive Serbian "шта/šta".
It would be great if User:Zeljko had come as a friend to the Serbian Wiki, but he is coming as a wolf in sheep's clothing to besmirch Serbain Wiki too, now that the Croatian one has been seriously compromised even with a threat of discontinuation.
On a second thought, nah -- I ain't sorry for jerks undeserving of pity...
Please do not fall for this "Information". It was planted using Chinese proxy with clear intention to undermine effort to clear situation on Hr.Wiki. Truth could easily be verified using Checkuser. FYI I am 100% certaiin that User:Zeljko is not Жељко Тодоровић. This chapter should be deleted but I do not want to delete it. --B. Ivsi (talk) 13:30, 16 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Chinese proxy or not, the purported Serbian Жељко Тодоровић uses clearly Croatian forms like "требаш поштовати", "требаш се фокусирати" и "То шта су рекли", only written in Cyrillic.
A native speaker of the Serbian version of Serbo-Croat will never say something like this, as it is distinctly Croatian in "требаш" and distinctly a speaker of the Croatian version of Serbo-Croat impersonating a speaker of the Serbian version in "[т]о шта су рекли", i.e. hyper-replacement of Croatian sole form "што/što" with the usual but not exclusive Serbian "шта/šta" (here it should remain "што/što" in Serbian too!).
Then such a clearly non-Serbian editor of Serbian Wiki, one User:Zeljko/Жељко Тодоровић persistently removes reference to the Pope speaking in favour of gay rights on an LGBT article on Serbian Wiki, where some Croatian jerks who are professors at a theological college in Croatia called for murder of LGBT people in blatant disregard of the Pope's opinion and he keeps saying it is unrelated to the article of a homophobic attack on LGBT parade in Split by followers of those Croatian Ustashe priests. He also allies with a small cabal of cronies and vandalises the page repatedly.
It would be great if User:Zeljko had come as a friend to the Serbian Wiki, but he is coming as a wolf in sheep's clothing to besmirch Serbain Wiki too, now that the Croatian one has been seriously compromised even with a threat of discontinuation.
It isn't unheard of that a Serb who lives in Croatia speaks like that. Nikola (talk) 16:54, 16 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Translate articles in exact form from Wikipedia in English where appropriate (unfortunately that would solve only a very small amount of issues, but still it would prevent admins to force their own personal POV in those articles). Marekich (talk) 17:50, 14 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Choosing new administrators who can proove they aren't biased in a political regard, even though that seems nearly impossible.--Tvrtko26 (talk) 17:57, 14 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
And who will "rectify" them ? With what intentions & knowledge ? Why not put any other Wikipedia under "supervision", including English language Wiki-which contains horrible nonsense, especially re controversial issues. Sorry-we're not adolescents to be disciplined. Mir Harven (talk) 18:02, 14 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Some current admins with clear political bias just have to go, and admins that would replace them have to be carefully selected. And if they are later shown to have bias, then they can be dealt with also. The current admin politics is unacceptable. Marekich (talk) 18:13, 14 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I would say you & and your sympathizers have clear political bias. The best way is to let Croatian Wikipedians, all registered contributors, to vote on the admin questions. Mir Harven (talk) 18:20, 14 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I would like you to prove your accusation, or to retract it. Marekich (talk) 18:23, 14 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Which accusation ? You try, very vigorously, to eliminate people who have succeeded in making Croatian Wikipedia the' most successful Wikipedia in ex-Yugoslavia. And you're accusing them of political bias. Why not accuse all those Croatian Wikipedia readers of being biased ? Mir Harven (talk) 18:28, 14 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
People who force their own personal POV, people who use article editing as a political mean should go, don't you agree? I don't care if someone is left or right-winger, religious or antireligious - if they don't follow Wikipedia rules, if they insert personal bias into articles, they should go. Whoever they are. Marekich (talk) 18:54, 14 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
What you're talking about ? Any "controversial" text is bound to have some "POV" in it. I wrote the entire article on "Korijenski pravopis" at Croatian Wikipedia, and there was no way to retain its integrity until a contributor who was- IMO- unjustifiably objecting to it, has been "pushed" or forbidden to meddle with it. There was no possibility of consensus, and there was no knowledge among other contributors. So, there are numerous cases where "personal POV" is necessary- because not few people are aggressive in promoting their personal agenda (without much knowledge) & the only way to retain a readable article is, after discussion & negotiations, to ban them or to threaten them with temporary ban. Mir Harven (talk) 19:50, 14 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Don't you remember what's written on Wikipedia? Ako ne želite da se vaše pisanje nemilosrdno uređuje i slobodno raspačava, nemojte ga ovamo slati. Therefore, if the text is POV, anyone ought to have the right to edit it.--126.96.36.199 20:32, 14 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I concur, but I'm still pro-arbitration so that they can't be masked as martyrs.--Tvrtko26 (talk) 18:15, 14 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Arbitration, then. Unlike mediation, in which the third party only helps the disputing users reach an agreement, an arbitration committee will impose a binding solution that all users must obey. Solutions may involve removal of access, blocking users, or forcing users to avoid editing the area of dispute. Such a decision will be enforced as necessary. --Tvrtko26 (talk) 18:11, 14 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
There was already an ArbCom on Croatian Wikipedia which blocked three prominent sysops (two of which were bureaucrats), after which it was dissolved and those blocked were reinstated to their former positions after few months. That approach didn't work due to abundant abuse by off-wiki means, which is expected in such small projects where pretty much everyone knows each other. Also, there is noticeable shortage of editors that would be impartial in handling political hot potatoes that interfere with "essential national truths". They have all been driven away over the years. Locally chosen ArbCom wouldn't solve anything - it would simply cement their current policies, and they would have an extra argument "see, this was sanctioned by ArbCom". Perhaps if some ArbCom members were chosen from bs and sr projects (and vice versa)? --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 20:03, 14 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Bravo! Arabs should be deciding about sysops on Israel Wikipedia and Afgan users should be dealing with the matter of sysops on English Wikipedia. Stop attacking Wikipedia in Croatian. The Croatian language won't disappear if you manage to install people that share your POV as the sysops on Croatian Wikipedia. Be constructive, make Serbian or Serbo-Croatian Wikipedia become more reliable than Croatian one. 188.8.131.52 20:18, 14 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Nobody is "attacking" Croatian Wikipedia - we are working to make it a better place for editors in the aftermath of the scandalous statement made by the Croatian Minister of Education. This should've been done years ago, but better late then never. Regarding my proposal above: no, I was not suggesting that sr and bs Wikipedians get to choose hr.wiki sysops, but only some fixed spots in the ArbCom that would specifically deal with issues such as languages, WW2 and similar. But I don't see how that would scale to thousands of articles... --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 20:41, 14 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Sysops, admins, editors - they are not Wikipedia. They give their time and effort to Wikipedia and Wikipedia users. Nobody is attacking Wikipedia, people just request for better, truthful, non-biased content, and administration that will enable, and not suppress that. By removing admins that do not follow Wikipedia rules, Croatian Wikipedia won't stop existing. Quite the opposite - it will become better, more neutral, more factual. --Marekich (talk) 21:00, 14 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Ignore the attemps of disrupting the Wikipedia in Croatian language. Motives for the disruptions are wrong and there are no strong arguments for some actions against CW sysops. Would removing sysops help or harm to the Croatian Wikipedia community? It would harm. Some outside Wikipedia in Croatian language know that, community of Wikipedia in Croatian language also knows that. When yellow press or politicians attack Wikipedia, the Wikipedia should stay independant. Chvrka (talk) 18:26, 14 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I'm sorry, but you obviously failed to understand what this is about. This is not some witch-hunt. This is a reaction to extreme bias the articles on our Wikipedia have and words you type on your keyboard here can't change that. It's your mindset that needs changing from the extreme right-wing one to a more accepting and liberal one. If that were to happen, maybe our Wikipedia would stop being a joke and a laughing-stock of the nation and gain some credibility. This way, you not having moved on past WWII and Yugoslavia, I fear for the younger generations and I pray they find the accurate version of history on English Wikipedia. And if you truly believe what's written on Croatian Wikipedia about recent history, you're gravely mistaken.--184.108.40.206 20:42, 14 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Check all the edits of the administrators. If it is found that they edited or did something to glorify WWII crimes, or further discrimination against a minority, in a way that includes, but is not limited to, editing, reverting edits, fearmongering, blocking users for no reason whatsoever or for wrong reasons, such as false allegations, they are to be stripped of their admin privileges.--220.127.116.11 20:52, 14 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I think that the whole thing needs a restart button. I am not familiar with all the Wiki bureaucracy and lingo, but these are the things that should be done IMO, to restore the public's trust and to get rid of the far-right bias:
Wikimedia should issue an official statement distancing itself from controversial articles on Croatian Wikipedia, assuring the public that issues would be resolved
Stripping of ALL admins on CW of sysop privileges, effective immediately. I hold them all responsible for the scandal this has become, either through inaction or through direct abuse of power. There are no innocent admins on CW.
Setting up some kind of a complaint desk on en.wiki where editors (and possibly readers) from other language Wikipedias can report problems with admin abuse. (There are good editors over there who were afraid to speak up until recently, we must offer an alternative venue for such people to go to.)
Translation of ALL the policies en.wiki has into Croatian (from what I've seen most of them simply don't exist over there, it seems nobody ever heard of WP:SYNTH for example). Also, I don't think they have a place for discussing reliable sources at all, so pretty much anything can be passed for a "source" over there.
Election of new admins, barring old ones to be nominated for that position ever again. These should be elected to temporary but renewable terms, lasting lets say six months, until we can see that the number of productive contributors has started to rise again, after which normal elections could be held.
Forming official partnerships with clubs of history students at Croatian Universities to give it some credibility and quality assurance. I think students of art history at Zagreb Uni are doing something like that already. This would not, of course, automatically solve the problem of bias in articles which talk about topics which are controversial in their own right, but it would help CW regain some credibility in the eyes of the public, and it may prevent it from having total train wrecks like it has today. Timbouctou (talk) 01:17, 15 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Timbouctu you wrote:There are no innocent admins on CW. I find this abusing and generalizing. What is my guilty? Have you read what I wrote in the village pump at hr.wiki about whole this case? For your information I was the member of the Croatian ArbCom and its last coordinator. My English is unfortunately not good enough to translate it here. --Flopy (talk) 09:00, 15 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I can vouch for Flopy: of all of the sysops of Croatian Wikipedia, he is in my experience by far the most courteous one. He is a history teacher and has on several occasions advocated the usage of only printed sources as references for controversial articles, and not some random web pages which push a particular point of view, such as that of Hrvatsko Kulturno Vijeće - a far-right think tank abundantly referenced in countless Croatian Wikipedia articles. He is a "good guy". Unfortunately, he doesn't edit 20th-century topics, and is not that active anymore. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 09:28, 15 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I can also say only good words for Flopy. There are at least 4 admins who should definitively be banned forever, like user:SpeedyGonsales, user:Roberta F., user:Kubura and user:Zeljko. These are hopeless cases. There are some, like user:Vodomar and user:Braco whom I never saw molesting a user (although I left wikipedia 4 years ago and I might be missing something), but who, for some reason, keep pretending not to understand the accusations and keep repeating "well, why don't you fix the articles yourself", ignoring the fact that the problem is in the hundreds of people who tried it and were stopped. There are a lot of inactive admins. And there are a few admins who mind their own business, probably because they don't have the bolls to stand up. And, there is user:Flopy who occasionally do stand up. --Ante Perkovic (talk) 18:16, 16 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Thank you for this words. I don't support any kind of fascism. There are some unacceptable things in articles about Croatian history of 20th century. This is not the history that I have learned and studied. But unfortunately I have never edited this thematical area. Now I see this was officialy wrong. After disaster of ArbCom (I was one of members) my activity went down because I was dissapointed with Wikipedia. The opposition on Croatian Wikipedia against Speedy and Roberta nominated me for sysop (Ante Perković came first on this idea. Lasta formally nominated me and also Dalibor Bosits supported me) and I accepted. Allmost all the sysops were against me but I passed  (just read the accusations against me during this voting). I realized very soon that I am practically allone (Ante left hr.wiki. Dalibor also and many other), so I was active only occasionaly until today. I am the only user until today who became sysop against the will of other active sysops. The general situation on hr.wiki since 2009 is cemented and that ruineted it. A month ago I wrote this "Ovakvi nažalost daju za pravo onima koji hrvatsku wikipediju smatraju leglom ultradesnice i onog negativnog nacionalizma. (sombody translate please). My only guilty could be "the command responsability" although I never edited this articles. If sombody is this oppinion (I see Timbuctou and Rječina are) I accept this. But once again I am active occasionaly. If there is no other way I think restarting is not bad idea. Sorry for my bad English :) --Flopy (talk) 22:22, 17 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
The vote on your adminiship is quite shocking. Pretty much all of the normal users support you, and the only ones against your adminiship are the admin cabal. User:Kubura has even accused you for daring to think on your own in discussions, and for not supporting him during the WizardOfOz case, for which he was desysoped. If this is not a crown evidence of them [admins] being completely detached from the community, I don't know what is. It's also interesting to note that most of the users that supported you not so long ago (in 2010), no longer regularly edit. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 10:29, 18 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Croatian Wikipedia needs to be restarted. This can be done as following:
Running checkuser an all existing administrators. Administrators having sockpuppets are all permanently blocked.
Removal of sysop, bureaucrat and checkuser flags for everyone that has them. Embargo for election of new sysops, bureaucrats and checkusers for at least 3 months. Provisional administrators that would do the patrolling and the deletion of vandalism are assigned.
Unblocking of all users that have > 500 edits that have unexpired blocks pending (including those permanently blocked). Among these are many content creators that no longer edit. They could be sent an invitation to "rebuild" Croatian Wikipedia.
A list of all articles with disputed and controversial content should be made. Content taken from or referencing obscure far-right sources (usually websites) should be deleted. All articles lacking references and suffering from POV must be tagged as such.
Missing policy pages should be translated from English Wikipedia. It should be explained in simple terms what do these policies actually mean. Many of the existing issues stem from misunderstanding of what NPOV refers to, as we've seen in discussions.
User blocking policy should be revised. Nobody should be permanently blocked without an have an offending diff shown, a chance to discuss the block on their talk page, and having other admins reviewing the block. Currently administrators can raise blocks without any accountability or due process. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 15:22, 16 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I was admin on Croatian wikipedia from 2005 to 2009. I personally blocked Ivan Štambuk on Croatian wikipedia, and I still believe that was a good move ;), but I like the above proposal very much.
Here is what I had in mind:
Open a pages for complaints, a page for each admin. Let the people, logged in or not, post concrete links to proofs of wrongdoings.
Make Arbcom out of 3 or 5 prominent Croatian contributors on English wikipedia (admin or experienced non-conflicting users, doesn't matter that much), preferably those who don't visit Croatian wikipedia at all. Let them examine the accusations and decide who is guilty and who is not.
De-sysop all sysops found guilty of misusing their sysop rights. Block them and ban forever.
Block forever all users found guilty off heavy molesting other users, especially if they were protected by admins.
Leave other admins do their job.
Change rules for promoting new admins, so current admins don't have veto on choosing new admins (they have veto for new patrollers, which is condition for admin candidacy!).
Let the Arbcom continue to work after cleanup, solving more complicated conflicts.
Block (on Meta!) every freaking retard who ever dare to mention ex-Yugoslav secret service, or communists, being involved in this or any other retarded conspiracy theory!!!
I moved this to the bottom, I think that it is enough of empty talk, let us discuss on remedies.--B. Ivsi (talk) 07:23, 17 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
My opinion combination of Ivan's and Ante's. I will give you only part with my oppinion how to have easiest transition to normal wiki.
Hr.wiki is full of sockpupets and we must devise system to make them useless.
First thing is to stop all voting on hr.wiki, bar voting for best article.
Removal of all sysop, bureaucrat and checkuser flags on hr.wiki.
For transition period sysops to be temporary arranged, we can use croatian sysops from en.wiki and hr.wiki sysops that clearly are not guilty for these offences (like Flopy). In case of need we can try to reactivate some old sysops and last option is usage of sysops from sh.wiki, I am not sure if that will be smart move.
Election of new sysops, bureaucrats and checkusers to be permanently arranged that all candidates and voters must identify themselves (simmilar process as checkusers have to be applied to all voters).
Unblocking of all users, without difference.
All sysops found guilty of misusing their sysop rights to be blocked forever (There is whole group of them, not only 3 or 4, they have few more allies).
Block forever all users found guilty off heavy molesting other users, especially if they were protected by admins.
Simple idea from an outsider: remove all administrator statuses, and all blocks, send a notification email that "hrwiki is restarting" to all users with confirmed email addresses (for global accounts, only to those who have made at least one edit to hrwiki). Then treat hrwiki like a new wiki with no admins, i.e. all necessary admin and bureaucrat action is temporarily done by stewards. Let the hrwiki community form again from scratch; it should then choose new admins, new policies, clean up existing articles, etc. darkweasel94 (talk) 09:19, 17 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I do not think a Lex wikipediae croatae should be installed, as I perceive the whole thing as a problem that can generally occur in any smaller project. On the one hand we have to mind that a local community will usually not be happy if a committee (or whatever) they do not know implements a resolution they do not support. On the other hand, yes, a local community can't just act as they feel like. However, if we discuss this topic once a huge problem is discovered, it's already a little late. I would suggest that the small wiki monitoring team (or a similar group of volunteers) gets a higher value (and for that another structure). → «« Man77 »»[de] 09:52, 17 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I think that this should first be written into an actual policy that allows clearly dysfunctional projects (e.g. when the admins totally ignore the community and play dictators, which according to some of what I'm reading here appears to be the case here; I don't understand a word of Croatian though) to be "restarted" the way I suggested. Such a policy should be based only on user conduct, not on content issues - i.e. some kind of Wikimedia-wide Arbitration Committee that can however only decide if the project should be "restarted" the way I suggested, or not; it shouldn't be allowed to selectively ban or de-sysop people. darkweasel94 (talk) 10:38, 17 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
This is ordinary witch-hunt, with a clique of disgruntled ex-Wikipedians, stirred up by contemporary government (which is in deep crisis & faces economic sanctions, and, therefore, tries with red herrings like this one to avert public eye from true problems). Anyway- the entire discourse is absolutely unacceptable. Hysteria about so called "fascism" is nothing more than communist & Yugoslav attempt of historical revisionism, because they have lost most of their ideological positions in top echelons in Croatian academic community and, more important, in Croatian general public. Plus- they face lustration & final defeat both in political arena & public discourse. So, with all this hullabaloo, they try to keep their monolithic vision of past 100 years of history which still exists in some pockets. In helping them- Wikipedia foundation is fighting a lost cause, and a dishonorable one (which has done before, re languages question, something which is definitely settled, both linguistically & legally). What is the only realist option is to organize public vote among active Croatian Wikipedians for them to decide what they really want re their administration. Anything that would smack of imposition- and the likes of Ante Perković, Timbuctou & Štambuk are the worst offenders (I'll refrain from characterization of their mental and moral personalities) are perceived only as snitches and quislings. That's the way people automatically react in similar situations. Last but not least- how come that Croatian Wikipedia far exceeds, especially re numbers of visits per hour & per capita, both Serbian & "Serbo-Croatian" Wikipedias ? Are visitors also "fascists" ? Is Croatian Wikipedia- as it is- in these matters a success story, something better than her neighbors ? Don't forget- all impositions fail, sooner or later. And cliques of disgruntled losers end up forgotten-or remembered with contempt. Mir Harven (talk) 10:27, 17 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
More conspiracy theories, that simply confirm everything that has already been stated. It should be noted that this guy Mir Harven authored a number of historical articles on Croatian WP where he is a senior editor with almost a decade of experience (though not very active anymore, surfacing only when he is invited), using the same conspiratorial undercurrent. Just yesterday he posted in the Croatian Wikipedia's Village pump an analysis of the Croatian WP's article on homosexuality (which was mentioned as impartial in the discussions) , where he claims that "homosexuality is not without a reason called an English Disease (ne zovu ljudi bez veze homoseksualnost “engleska bolest”), that English WP's article on homosexuality "promotes liberal views of American elites" which makes it "by definition tendentious", while simultaneously "skillfully avoids the connection between radical militarism and homosexuality" (listing examples of Cecil Rhodes, Hitlerjugend and SS of all being "prominent homosexuals") and concludes that "homosexualism is less of an instinct and behavior, an more of an ideology" with Gay Prides being "provincial mock of American globalism and its subculture", and that translating the English WP's article on homosexuality will simply lead to "uninformedness and selling of their ideology". Now imagine the same kind of conspiratorial paranoia permeating thousands of articles dealing with history and culture. Yes this is what we're dealing with. Another example: The CW's article on Ustashi, a Croatian Nazi puppet-regime idolized by the far-right to this day, had had for almost 10 years a conclusion (in a section called Zaključak in Serbo-Croatian) that was written in 2004 by Mir Harven and removed only yesterday by Timbouctou, that stated that Ustashi movement "was not willfully radical and right-wing, racist, perhaps even totalitarian", and that the display of Ustashi iconography in Croatian society is merely "an action of defiance against the anti-Croatian machinations of foreign countries embodying the ruling quasi-liberal, manipulative and Masonic globalist countries". Once again, this was the conclusion of the article on the most controversial part of Croatian history for almost ten years.
Simply restarting the project, as some suggest, without making proactive measures by blocking responsible parties and running a CU will not help - they will simply regroup and manipulate votes, driving away undesirable editors and slowly but steadily introducing their POV. The difference between agenda-pushers and "normal" editors is that the former usually cooperate in their goals using covert channels (invite-only IRC channels, mailing lists), while the latter are usually lone cowboys which makes them vulnerable over the long term. Some kind of oversight is needed by an uninvolved party that could monitor how things are progressing, and have the power to veto or override suspicious actions. Similar to what was done with Dayton Agreement which ended Yugoslav wars and instituted High Representative that could veto and override local nationalist politician's decisions should they be judged dubious and instigating disorder. This is how a "dysfunctional country" of Bosnia was successfully handled for a decade. This oversight could be editors from Bosnian, Serbian or Serbo-Croatian WP, or Croatian editors from English wikiprojects. At any case, letting the thing run on its own will simply recreate the same mess in the future. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 12:32, 17 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Good you have mentioned it. Of course, I wrote it & it's completely in agreement with current scholarship (and not only current). Ustaša movement was not a fascist one, neither was it totalitarian. They were radical nationalists of the 19th century type & did not possess truly fascist ideology which is a combination of social Darwinianism and some other ideologies (one can consult any relevant literature on fascist ideology). Also- it was not totalitarian -as were Stalin's & Hitler's regimes- because they were both technically & ideologically inferior and had not developed any mature nationalist ideology along racial or modern totalitarian ideological lines. Essentially- they were dated & reactive, not pro-active. You can find this in all relevant books on them- say, Hrvoje Matković, Dušan Bilandžić, Aleksa Đilas, Bogdan Krizman, Fikreta Jelić-Butić, Nada Kisić-Kolanović, Stjepan Antoljak, .. As far as Ustashe iconography goes- most people are, and will continue to use it as a sign of frustration with remnants of Yugo regime in contemporary Croatia (similar to Četniks- who are almost rehabilitated in Serbia & who use their iconography without compunction). Now, it's not about who was on whose side in WW2. It's about that these two movements were clearly genocidal (see Greater Serbia article for that, especially Četnik crimes & Moljević's plan from their "Congress" in the Ba village. Just, only Ustaše have historical stigma - which leads to the global fact that Axis murderers got punished, but Communists, who killed ca. 7-12 times more people- just walked away scot-free, unpunished (if they're still alive). All genocidal regimes should be condemned equally- or neither one. A far as Bosnia & Herzegovina is concerned: Republic of Srpska is successful NDH. It killed- both in pits & concentration camps, and expelled all non-Serb inhabitants. Now, it's an ethnically "clean" state, at least 95% Serbian and still within loose Bosnian & Herzegovina framework. US and the rest have rewarded killing & genocide, and Dayton has sealed the deal. This travesty of not only justice, but common sense shows where Western civilization now stands. High commissary in B & H is just a bureaucrat implanting US-UK-... decisions about Bosnia & Herzegovina and is a guardian of survival a new NDH- Republic of Srpska Before ca. 70 years, they-US, UK, Russia,..- could have rewarded NDH, secured its boundaries & punish its leaders in some trials just to secure the continuation of this state. Well, that's here we are now. 1) you are clueless about the nature of Ustaša regime- ordinary quislings with genocidal plan against Serbs, but neither fascist nor totalitarian.2) you're willfully blind about Serbian extremist nationalism, promulgated at Serbian Wikipedia pages and in the entire Serbian political discourse, where the president is ideological descendant of Četniks, who will never acknowledge genocidal nature of that movement. At the end- Ustaša soldiers numbered ca. 60,000 in 1944. You consider, I suppose, that all of them- these 60,000 men- were murderers & war criminals. Sorry- this way of thinking is insane. This whole campaign against Croatian Wikipedia is just a confluence of various strains which have one thing in common: to denigrate Croatian nationhood & integrity as much as you can. Well- you lost, historically. You may achieve smaller victories now & then, but are history's losers. As are Ustaše & Communists. And-there is no "Serbo-Croatian": http://www.theeuropeanlibrary.org/tel4/discover/languages You lost & English Wikipedia has made a fool of herself.Mir Harven (talk) 13:36, 17 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Ustashi movement is a fascist movement. Perhaps not according to the Croatian far-right ideologues and their faithful minions, but the rest of the world pretty much describes it so. Croatian WP's article on Ustashi interestingly claimed that it was a "Croatian nationalist organization" before the September 12th, but now it also says fascist. And you might wanna look up the word fascism in the dictionary - it is a form of totalitarianism. At any case, I don't want to discuss anything with a person who things that the regime that made death camps and enacted racist laws was not fascist. You're nuts. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 20:13, 17 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Pooh ! You just can't argue, because Ustaše movement was not a fascist one ( I don't give a hoot what some editor has written). Historians have written numerous works about the phenomenon of fascism (Nolte, Broszat,..) and they are in agreement that Ustaša regime was not a fascist one, but a quisling state which very quickly slipped into unsuccessful genocide project against Serbs- unlike Republic of Srpska, which was a successful genocide project-and rewarded by the US, Germany, Russia and, especially, Britain. So much for your knowledge of history & "objectivity". Let's see some other things in your little diatribes. Lies, damn lies & Mr. Štambuk. Selective quotations is, as expected, his favorite tool. So, let's see what I wrote on homosexuality (Village Pump page): that there is a dark side to this phenomenon where male homosexuality is probably linked to extreme physical aggression & militarism (from Ancient Greece to Ernst Roehm's brown-shirts & not a few SS members-and I could add the elite Ottoman Janissary corps, which consisted mostly of homosexuals- these guys killed hundreds of thousands). English Wikipedia tries to portray homosexuals as eternal victims & pansies- in reality, homosexuals have been, historically, frequently associated with murderous military rampage; that there are numerous homosexual rapes in the US- mostly, but not exclusively in prisons, so that not few researches of the rape point that, in the US, there are more raped men than women- interesting, eh ?; that homosexuality is mostly genetic, as far as we can conclude; that homosexual propensity is abnormal, but not degenerate, since many greatest minds had been homo- and bisexuals (Plato, Michelangelo, Turing, Proust, perhaps Erasmus, Tchaikovsky, …); that we, in continental Europe, frequently call homosexuality “English disease” (as we call syphilis “French disease” & heterosexual anal sex “Italian invention”)- it's all about English Victorian education system; that English language Wikipedia is not a “neutral”, “global” discussion village, but a projection of the dominant discourse in American society; that homosexualism-not homosexuality- is a part of American globalist ideology: hence, various “pride marches” & the fact that entire global homosexual movement is drenched in English language phraseology (similar to Russian language dominated communism during 1930s & later)- and that English language article on homosexuality is, in many respects, a projection of internal US ideological squabbles & has grave omissions and distortions galore. Mr.Štambuk- distortions & manipulations are easy to detect. You are an example of this trivial observation. Mir Harven (talk) 21:00, 17 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
homosexuals have been, historically, frequently associated with murderous military rampage - please report to the nearest mental institution Nazi nut job. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 22:04, 17 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
So, some articles on Ottoman Turkish jannisaries have lead you to the conclusion that there is a positive correlation between homosexuality and "murderous military rampage" ? Interesting hypothesis; I suggest you write a paper on it and submit it to Nature. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 10:15, 18 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
All these wikipedia you are mentioning are far far more problematic than Croatian. Serbian and Serbo-Croatian especially. People don't read them because they are unobjective. Don't read them, don't complain about anything. As statistic says. Serbian Wikipedia is full of nacionalistic bias, and Serbo-Croatian full of Yugoslav communist bias and Serbian nationalistic bias also. So your suggestion is to harm Wikipedia in Croatian by setting those that made "their own" projects be unreliable and a mess. Those that are not capable of solving their own huge problems should make similar problems on Wikipedia in Croatian, to harm the project. Where their problems are there they should be solving them, on their home projects. You can't make Serbo-Croatian or Serbian Wikipedia better by harming Wikipedia in Croatian. Chvrka (talk) 13:00, 17 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
My suggestion has absolutely nothing to do with the quality of articles on bs and sr wikis which is, once again, immaterial to this discussion. The idea is to introduce a system of checks and balances by involving editors from those projects, to make sure that systematic bias is no longer subtly pushed across many articles by a well-organized cabal. Since almost all of the controversial history and culture-related articles on Croatian Wikipedia in way or the other involve Bosnia and Serbia, having their perspective could serve as a counterbalance to the "traditional" Croatian POV. Yes, the project would be "harmed" in its current form, which is perfectly fine by you but unfortunately unacceptable to the civilized world. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 20:04, 17 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Foreigners don't need to imagine, they can simply read what Zekoslav wrote. -- Bojan Talk 12:40, 17 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I think that users of Croatian wikipedia should try to solve this alone, at least at first. Please all stop with all this animosity. We are all humans and deserve peace and understanding. This is volonteer work. Try to look on things rationally. Our goal is to improve situation and to find good solutions. Focus on that. If any article is bad written, it's possible to change that.--Fraxinus (talk) 12:36, 17 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
"Our goal is to improve situation and to find good solutions."
This is an outright lie. The administrators of hr.wiki, at least the ones that have been mentioned on this page, have shown quite clearly that they don't want any compromise. Željko worships the Ustaša Ante Pavelić, Mir Harven calls homosexuality a disease, the current article for Homophobia says that "homophobia is actually the natural and default state of human beings", administrators are actively stifling any editing that's trying to make the articles more objective. Internationally accepted and peer-reviewed science is disregarded. Essays are written without any source and with clear nationalist, homophobic and even racist slants. Nationalist and fascist war slogans are shouted on the village pump. Any opposition to these views is regarded as negative and frowned upon.
This is NOT normal. Please have the basic human decency and accept that. Croatian Wikipedia is as of right now clearly in opposition to what Wikipedia as a project stands for. The fact that many of the administrators involved in this refuse to comment on the issue here is very unsettling. Fejstkajkafski (talk) 12:47, 17 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Fraxinus are you seriously saying that after WizardOfOz case where meta has made decision that his block is illegal after which croatian administrators acting together has again without reason blocked WizardOfOz because meta is not having right to order anything on croatian wiki you are saying:
"I think that users of Croatian wikipedia should try to solve this alone"
Are you really, really serious or you are joking ??--Rjecina2 (talk) 13:49, 17 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I am seriously ashamed. It seems as if everyone on Croatian Wiki is completely insane. The entries from Mir Harven are the perfect illustration of the level of discussion prevalent on the Croatian Wikipedia - everyone believes that the "attacks" on "their" wikipedia somehow prove that they are actually correct, whilst everyone else is a part of some kind of a secret masonic/serbian/yugoslav/communist/atheist conspiracy. No one actually paused for a single second to think whether the critics might have a valid point or not before dismissing them as the enemies of the state. The discourse on the Croatian Wiki:Kafić is completely unacceptable. "You are communist censors." "You are snitches on English Wikipedia." "You ache for your wasted youth and the former state, which will never come back again." "You would like to wake up in Yugoslavia". I guess I will also be labeled an enemy of the state now. If admins actually took a look at some of the moot articles instad of uncovering communist conspiracies, they could've seen that the criticism was justified. For instance, the article Antifašizam was 90% false, extremely biased and the sources had been rants by a completely unknown author published on a far-right webpage. The article was rewritten a few days ago, but if you look at the article history you can see that some people had tried to improve the article, only to have their changes reverted by an administrator because the former article "was well sourced". Now, does someone who believes that rants from extreme right webpages are good sources and who sees no problems with essay-style biased articles deserve to be an administrator?
1) Why don't you sign yourself ? 2) Why don't you try to translate whole discussion & thus give a realistic view on what all sides are saying. All means 2-3 disgruntled individuals (Timbuctou, Frau whatever & perhaps one person more). Mir Harven (talk) 13:52, 17 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I am user from Croatian Wikipedia and I think that is our thing. We do not want any foreign intervention. --Mostarac (talk) 14:31, 17 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
By "We do not want any foreign intervention", you propably mean users will be asked to vote on some poll, written by You, Speedy or Vodomar, while knowing that, in case they vote for wrong side, they will be given long-term block by hr:user:SpeedyGonsales or hr:user:Zeljko as soon as they invent some reason for block? It happens all the time. --Ante Perkovic (talk) 01:42, 18 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
My 2 cents then. Some excellent ideas here, let me just stress what I feel is important:
Provisional external ArbCom that will decide on possible actions and oversee the situation for a while (I suppose 6-12 months minimum).
The work of all active admins should be reviewed. That doesn't mean just addressing the complaints, but actively investigating their editing history for transgressions. It is important to have in mind that in many cases the victims were either blocked or left CW, or were IP editors, so they are not going to be around and lodge a complaint.
In particular, administrative actions (bans, page protections) and warnings ("yellow cards") should be reviewed.
The same applies to the history of highly problematic articles. (I suspect many irregularities will be found here.)
Review and significant expansion of current policies.
Sanctions as necessary. This will most probably result in quite a few indef bans. Sockpuppets will need to be watched for very closely.
When applying sanctions to admins, differentiate between substandard admin work (desysopping) and systematic, wanton violations (indef ban).
And, what is perhaps the most important thing: for the community in general, with respect to the above remedies, absolutely no moratoriums, probation or second chances of any kind, for any reason.
That´s just a politically motivated attack on this wikipedia. Obviously Neocommunists. Jealousy? Just let take a small view how "serbocroatian" wiki works: 80 % copy+paste from Croatian Wikipedia. http://sh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posebno:Doprinosi/Seiya ("preuzeto s hr wiki" means copy+past efrom Croatian Wikipedia!!!!), And nobody care about this. Ignore Stambuk and the oder "Serbocroatian" activists. Let them do their job themself. And foget the poor left wing media in Croatia. They are just pissed because of articles about their biography etc. There is no fascism in this wikipedia. That´s a Big big lie. They want cite history from the time before 1991? Would anybody cite historicans about the Nazi period from Germany 1933-1945??? --Modzzak (talk) 16:32, 17 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
On the contrary, Modzzak, Croatian Wikipedia is copy-pasting as much from Serbo-Croatian (without apostrophes) Wikipedia as vice-versa:Kosmetic, Sayya and other users who smell of suckpuppets constantly copy my new articles that I write on Serbo-Croatian Wikipedia to fill in the "hole" left on Croatian Wikipedia. Observe how many new articles on Croatian Wikipedia thus require translation from the Serbian language: https://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kategorija:Potreban_prijevod. When I copy from the Croatian Wikipedia, I mostly copy the articles I wrote myself back then when I was active there. You cannot expand Croatian Wikipedia on the expense of Serbo-Croatian Wikipedia.--Seiya (talk) 17:31, 17 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Can you prove that Croatian Wikipedia is c/p-ing articles from "S-C" Wikipedia ? I think it's the other way around, and number of visits per hour indirectly confirms this. You seem to be some kind of Croatian Wikipedia's (not only Croatian) "parasites"- otherwise, I guess you'd be getting way more attention. But- I may be wrong. Figures & stats, please ! Mir Harven (talk) 20:23, 17 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
It's the easiest thing to do, I'm surprised I have to do it for you, Mir Harven: when I, for example, write the article Safety Last! on 4 May on SC Wikipedia, and on 2 September "user:Sayya" writes the exact same Safety Last! article on CR Wikipedia, with the exact same words (including Serbian words), exact same references, then that is copy-paste. For those who are not lazy, they will simply check the history of an article on CR Wikipedia and see that it existed in identical form on SC Wikipedia at least a week earlier (Zovu me trinity, Perm-Trijas izumiranje, Testiranje nuklearnog oružja...). In fact, Kosmetic and Sayya haven't wrote a single article on CR Wikipedia themselves, all of their contributions are copied from SC Wikipedia. It is off-topic, but it shows that CR Wikipedia copies as much from SC Wikipedia as vice-versa. The difference is that SC Wikipedia has the culture enough to display such a copying in the summary, while CR Wikipedia administrators try to hide the obvious, even though everyone sees the copying. By the way, say hello to Speedy, and feel free to invite him to say at least one reply here.--Seiya (talk) 07:30, 18 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Many wikipedias contain biases of some kind, be there left or right, or a particular slant in especially in areas such as: history, social issues, gender politics, religion, philosophy, psychology, arts any sciences or events that are soft or human in nature because of the interpretation but also due to the inherit human nature of bias based on own belief systems, upbringing, experience biases or just plain not knowing and going on gut feel. The Croatian wikipedia as such is not immune of problems that plague other wikipedia's as well. Merging the Croatian Wikipedia into other wikipedias which have a closeness in language would not be fair, as the hr.wikipedia.org project was formed as a separate project and it should be allowed like other minority projects continue on. Abolishing or merging the Croatian language Wikipedia as a punitive measure would set a dangerous precedent and it would be picked up by the World media as a social engineering and language engineering exercise of creating a virtual Yugoslavia, where one in the real world does not exist, but also it sends a message to many other minority languages and other families of languages that if you are mutually understandable or quite close, you do not deserve space on Wikipedia. With this Wikipedia instead of promoting diversity is really promoting a single view of the world dictated by the powers at Wikimedia. Croatian is a language, and that is a fact. In terms of what needs to happen on the hr.wikipedia.org project to reduce the "right wing bias", there is one thing that needs to be done first is to place a label on all of the articles that have an issue out of the 140k articles on the hr.wikipedia.org, and after this a list needs to be complied and a report produced. After this is done, the community will be asked to contribute in editing or re-writing the articles that have been identified as a problem. Everyone is invited to contribute. As for the destruction of the whole hr.wikipedia.org administration structure which some are calling for and calling in outside administrators from other project, this is unjust and unfair. What needs to happen is that 3 more administrators are to be added to the hr.wikipedia.org community with fresh elections, with a decision made by the community in 6 months time. Vodomar (talk) 21:37, 17 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Vodomar, while I'm against merges too, this can't be solved by simply fixing the content. The content is merely a symptom of the problem. Ask yourself these questions: are there admins that are abrasive, vengeful and unpleasant in personal contact on a regular basis? Do some admins bend the rules as they see fit? Do they use excessive administrative measures? And finally, do they use them liberally against those who they disagree with, rather than treating everyone equally? Would you vouch that the answer to all these questions is "no"? Because if it is "yes" - and I contend that it is, to all of them, which wouldn't be difficult to investigate and prove - then fixing content will prove to be impossible, and benefits - if any - will only be temporary. Moreover, all this content stuff isn't new, it's been going on for years - why do you believe the things are going to change right now, and how do you see it happening? GregorB (talk) 22:16, 17 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Vodomar, I really don't understand why You keep insisting, here and on Croatian wikipedia, that "anybody can just start fixing the articles". Well, people tried that like a few hundred times before and they were stopped, insulted and blocked. This is what the RFC is all about! user:SpeedyGonsales just blocked some poor guy for 3 months just because he was asking questions Speedy doesn't want to answer. That only is enough for de-sysoping!
Do You really really think that Croatian wikipedia can prosper under such an aggressive self-centered admins like user:SpeedyGonsales?
Do You really really think that Croatian wikipedians can solve the problem themselves while rampant admins blocks anyone who dare to criticize them, even politely?
Do you really think you can have free and open voting when every user known he/she can be blocked for even a minor criticism? Don't you think this terror of user:SpeedyGonsales will influence every possible voting you have?
I was the "poor guy" referenced by Ante Perkovic above. Let me just quickly translate you the discussion here:
Speedy: "I do not have the intent to answer the accusations from Facebook here. I tried twice on Facebook, but to them the problem is a ":-)" on the end of the sentence, and ad hominem attacks are not the problem. Who has questions, can pose them here. This is a functioning project, which is evident, because it did not slowed down or died out in spite of all the attacks, but on the contrary it is getting better every day. SpeedyGonsales 01:01, 18. rujna 2013. (CEST)"
ME: "SpeedyGonsales, you say "Who has questions, can pose them here"? With all due respect, having in mind your contribution to wikipedia so far, can you please, if it's not a problem, without further evasion and if possible in unequivocal fashion answer the questions I have posed in the section "Asking the admins for the explanation". Or, may we interpret this joining of yours to the initiative coming from the Vodomar as your defacto admission that the accusations are at least partially right and that this is the way you plan to deal with the problems?"
Speedy: ""without further evasion" - we shall not discuss in this manner. Administrators are volonteurs, last week they have been slundered in the newspapers, and now someone wants to demand answers from us within 24 or 48 hours? It is not wikispirit, it is aggressive personal attack which haven't been tolerated until now, and also we shell not tolerate today! SpeedyGonsales 01:30, 18. rujna 2013. (CEST)"
I would like to add that since SpeedyGonsales blocked everything, including my email capability within the hr.wikipedia, this meta was the only way to object to the admins actions. I would like to ask Vodomar, also an admin on hr.wiki who contributed to this meta, to unblock me, if he thinks SpeedyGonsales overreacted and overstepped his authority. If someone invokes elections, and eliminates all opposition, if that's not fascism, I do not know what is. --Koryaksky (talk) 02:18, 18 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Few apolitical questions for Vodomar and FraxinusEdit
Vodomar and Fraxinus are trying to convince us that they learnt lesson. Having in mind that they learnt nothing from three previous Rfcs (i'll explain bellow), what gives them right to assure us they will improve?
Darko Maksimovic case - wise would be realize: a) they should have retalizet they need Articles for deletion page so unsatisfied side can not accuse a sysop for violation of guidelines and policiyes - as of september 2013 there is no AFd on CWl sysops has right to delete (or not) without : b) they can not give indefinite or longtime block under unconvincing arguments to users who hand blocked before.
Dalibor Bosic case - I couldn't find policy for granting adminship ans desysop proces (i see only requirements for candidates and voters)
Wizard of Oz case - uh... -they should lernt that it would be another rfc
Aside from that, awareness on copyright are low. I mentioned already that Speedy violated on of fundamental policies - no non-free image in non-article namespace. And some time ago, adminsat Commons begun deleting images made in Bosnia cause there is no freedom of panorama? Answer: it is conspiracy!
So, what, Fraxinus and Vodomar, I think it little too late now. You and your colleagues made much damage to hr.wiki. It would take years for CW to wash itself. -- Bojan Talk 05:34, 18 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
You are judge, jury and prosecution here you have a title of a few apolitical questions, then you elaborate your cases and make a conclusion in the end, stating that it is too late now the horse has bolted. You have made up your mind of what you want to do. Vodomar (talk) 22:08, 18 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
The sitting administrators have raised the Croatian Wikipedia from its inception and infancy into the project it has become. They have kept vigil over its blossoming and sacrificed time and sweat to its upkeep: and blood also, often enough, while confronting the nonsense that always appears in public books and the misfits by whose hand it appears.
Shall we thank them now by gaily taking part in a lynch upon them?
We are not machines. We are human beings. Our bias comes of our empathy: our love for our brothers, sisters, fathers, neighbors. An administrator, being first of all a human being, also has biases, unless he is frigid and cold-hearted. Is it natural to expect objectivity from a nation with open wounds? Hardly. Anyone who pretends to proffer it, does not understand how deeply war divides those it involves: how deeply it must divide them, since houses are burned down, relatives killed, swaths of land held hostage.
No one who hasn't seen the war in Yugoslavia can know just how attrocious a war it was. The Serbian army with its tanks and airplanes gave logistical backing to the Serbian paramilitary squads of Bosnia and Croatia. Not because Serbs were evil -- in all my years of knowing the present HR administration I have never heard that insinuated -- but because Milosevic, Karadzic, Babic were. They got the due reward for their evil. Twenty years on, Croats and Bosnians still suffer the wounds Karadzic-Milosevic-Babiv tore open and salted.
As the Croatian admins' friend and admirer, I implore you not to rashly repay the diligence and effort of many years with a momentary, impulsive decision compelled by a hostle and underhanded attack. You will be repaying evil for good.
--VKokielov (talk) 11:54, 17 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
For the umpteenth time, this is not a lynch against any of the editors in person. The problems that Croatian Wikipedia faces go far beyond any individual administrator. Simply ignoring the issues whose severity has reached the highest echelons of government will not solve anything. That administrators have done a good job is a subjective value judgment: If you take a look at the statistics in the chart above, it could be easily argued that CW could be having twice as many very active editors, and twice as many articles by now, were a different "leadership" in place. I also suggest that we keep politics out. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 12:40, 17 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
It is not only a lynch against some editors in person. It is the attack on whole community of Croatian Wikipedia mainly from those who contribute to Yugoslav nationalist Wikipedia in Serbo-Croatian and Serbian nationalist Wikipedia in Serbian. Both of them are inferior to Wikipedia in Croatian because their own sysops are pushing hard nationalistic Serbian/Yugoslav bias on that projects. So people trust Wikipedia in Croatian more, readers from Serbia also, as statistic says. On the other hand, people from Croatia don't read Serbian or Serbo-Croatian Wikipedia at all.
This attack on the community of Croatian Wikipedia is made by a lynch against some editors in person. Those editor who put the most effort in CW project. If they are removed or handicaped then the whole community will suffer. Because it's a small edition of Wikipedia, small community. That's the point.
You say it's not a lynch of editors in person while in the same time you publish their personal names here in the discussion. While in the same time their personal names are being published by the yellow press and people are threating them, publishing theirs home adresses on facebook and writing messages that "Croatian Wikipedia will be defeated soon" etc. You know all that and you still are saying that there is no lynch, nor attack on the whole project? There is. And the motives for the attack are pathetic. Make projects you contribute to be better and you won't have such a desire to harm Wikipedia in Croatian. Chvrka (talk) 13:17, 17 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Their names were already published in the press even before this scandal. They disclosed their identities by themselves. Personally, I don't care about them in person, and I'm pretty sure none of the other "attackers" does. It is, however, interesting that absolutely none of these Ustashi-sympathizers is editing by their real name. They must have been ashamed or something.
Motives of the "attack" are not pathetic. What is pathetic is telling kids that Ustashi movement was not fascist but "patriotic", and that wearing Nazi insignia is defying globalist Masonic quasi-liberals, which is what the article was displaying for almost a decade. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 19:47, 17 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Also, regarding the trust of readers - you are obviously uninformed that the most read Wikipedia by Croatians is not Croatian, but English. Your own countrymen don't trust you. And I've already told you - if you have issues with Serbian and Serbo-Croatian wikis having a systematic bias - feel free to reflect on that on their article talk pages. Some of the sysops there have already invited you to do so. None of these communities would wants to be humiliated like this, and I'm pretty sure that in the light of this discussion they will do anything possible to address any issues you might raise. But please no more blanket accusations against sr and sh wikis - they are immaterial to this discussion. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 19:56, 17 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
A fail again. Many Wikipedias have more visitors , more than 50%, to the English Wikipedia than th their own national language Wikis. It's easy to check this, we all know that. Simply- English language Wikipedia has more, much more articles on almost everything. It's not a matter of "trust", but of scarcity. You "conveniently" forgot that Croatian Wikipedia has- for the umpteenth time- more visitors than all other ex-Yugoslav Wikipedias (with possible exception of Slovenian Wikipedia, I'm not sure). So- Bosnian, Serbian, Macedonian, "Serbo-Croatian" Wikipedias are dwarfed by Croatian Wikipedia re number of visits. How so- if Croatian Wikipedia is so "fascist" & one-sided ? Or, as is more likely- you & a few other contributors have a big chip on a shoulder. Mir Harven (talk) 21:11, 17 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Regardless of how visited CW is, it is apparently not that much trusted. The geographical distribution of countries that English is not natively spoken, and yet English Wikipedia is the most visited of all wikipedias, is particularly striking in the region of Balkans. Which is telling, and shows that that we're rather dealing with a general mistrust of "national" Wikipedias, than a general trend where English Wikipedia is the most visited one due to the large number of articles. Users may land on CW article pages through search engines, but they more often than not click the "English" interwiki link. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 00:36, 18 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Croatian Wikipedia is still small, many topics are still better covered on en.wiki. Most of the population of Croatia understands English. Wikipedia in Croatian would certainly have faster growth of articles when you and your SH:WP Yugoslav activist buddies wouldn't be harassing HR:WP every certain while. Please, User:Ivan Štambuk, read Incivility and try to act according to what it states. Your hate against Croatian language and editors of Wikipedia in Croatian language is leading you nowhere. Chvrka (talk) 12:41, 25 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Ah, so the gay people have attacked you in some war? your silly argument about what someone or something called "Babiv" did or did not do is irrelevant in terms of extreme pro-Roman-Catholic-Church-in-Croatia bias (even when in fact the activity of that Ustashi-supporting para-ecclesiastical organisation is in direct opposition to the tennets of the global Roman Catholic Church -- e.g. Pope Francis supporting gay rights openly, which has been deleted from Croatian Wikipedia about 8 times).
Besides, we do not really care who has caused some individual persons unworthy of Wikipedia mention their individual traumas. We can address this only in general.
The War for Ex-YU Succession (for some bizarre reason called "croatian war of independence") was messy and brutal. As its results, 250,000 Serbs no longer live in Croatia, because they have been expelled with military might (and those that would not leave were massacred, at least two thousand of them). How clear is it to the Croiatian Wikipedia amdin that this is a genocide according to all definitions of that term? Not at all. Have they put that in Croatian Wikipedia? No. Are they objective or are they neo-Nazi? I think the latter.
There are doctors for post-traumatic disorders. Wikipedia admins MUST NOT exhibit bias WHATEVER mental problem that they have. If they are biased, they should be banned from the admin status for life.
The War for Ex-YU Succession (for some bizarre reason called "croatian war of independence") Yawn. You've shown visually what Greater Serbian agenda are.Let's get some facts straight. Year 1991: Serbs are 11% of Croatia's population. They support Slobodan Milosevic's pan-Serbian movement which took JNA/Yugoslav Army under Serbian control. This Army has been financed by all Yugoslav republics (Serbia plus Montenegro 36%, Croatia 28%, Slovenia 19%,..). So, Serbs literally “stole” all these planes, tanks, ships, rockets, guns, howitzers, … and, via their fifth column, Croatian Serbs, embarked upon their provincial imperial expansion: they wanted to occupy the entire Bosnia and Herzegovina & ca. 70% of Croatia. This was a combined aggression: Serbia proper + Montenegro +JNA + Croatian Serbs.
During expansionist aggression against Croatia, JNA deployed 4 out her 6 armored brigades, and 11 out 12 mechanized ones Thanks to president Tudjman's wise maneuvres, Croatia has, by the end of 1991., partially armed herself, so after the truce, Serbs began their butchering in Bosnia and Herzegovina. Year 1995: Srebrenica massacre had happened & the world was tired of Serbian savagery. Croatia, now armed & ready, launched a two-pronged assault (160.000 against Serbian para-state “Krajina”, 55.000 dug in Eastern Slavonia as the deterrent against Milosevic). The rag-tag Army of Croatian Serbs (40.000 of them) virtually collapsed in two days & fled, along with them their families- perhaps 120-150.000 people. In the meantime: from 1991-1995 Serbs in the UN protected zones in Croatia (the so called UNPA zones of Krajina) murdered more than 600 elderly and incapacitated Croats, mostly peasant women- while Danish, Dutch, Kenyan and Jordanian troops just looked by; during Operation Storm, in the sector where general Gotovina was in charge- they just fled, even before Croatian troops arrived. Mir Harven (talk) 13:58, 17 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Actually, we do understand that you may have problems communicating in English, so let's clarify. That comment was not about the War for Ex-YU Succession.
It was about: Ah, so the gay people have attacked you in some war? [...] silly argument about what someone or something called "Babiv" did or did not do is irrelevant in terms of extreme pro-Roman-Catholic-Church-in-Croatia bias (even when in fact the activity of that Ustashi-supporting para-ecclesiastical organisation is in direct opposition to the tennets of the global Roman Catholic Church -- e.g. Pope Francis supporting gay rights openly, which has been deleted from Croatian Wikipedia about 8 times).
Besides, we do not really care who has caused some individual persons unworthy of Wikipedia mention their individual traumas.
Cool off, you'll get a heart attack. Hm- how come you anti-Catholic bigots simultaneously deride RCC as something inherently homosexual (and pedophile) & at the same time are foaming with faux-righteous wrath against RCC "anti-homosexual bias" ? You guys are just anti-Catholic hypocrites. The position of RCC on homosexuality is known (I've read what they think about it). They're against homosexual marriage & adoption right, and that's all- as is most of the world, and some countries which are frequently anti-Catholic in their stance, like Russia, are truly not just "biased", but are suppressing homosexual propaganda as an ideology very radically. Why don't you go preach in Holy Mother Russia in favor of gay "marriage", instead of red-heringing here ? Hmmm...Mir Harven (talk) 19:57, 17 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Don'cha pretend to worry about me, hypocrite. My health is certainly much better than yours. Both physical and mental.
Come to think of it, one should not ever deign to compare one's own mental health to the state of derangedness in the head of a neo-Nazi homophobe, anti-Semite and Serbophobe, like you and your ilk.
Your bias is just indicative that whatever is said about the hr.wikipedia.org project, no matter how many lines are typed you just won't listen or try to have a sensible conversation. This kind of bigotry and name calling is just indicative of the bile that is spewed out there. Tone down your language, otherwise there is no point is talking to a person who is coming from this kind of standpoint. Vodomar (talk) 22:14, 18 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I've drafted a project restarting process, to deal with abusive "admin cabals" on Wikimedia projects in a systematic way, and want to invite everybody to give comments on its talk page - it seems like a better idea to first make a process, then apply it to this particular case, than the other way round. It's pretty much what I've already proposed above, and explicitly not exclusive to hrwiki. darkweasel94 (talk) 15:38, 17 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
:A good idea. Does anyone know: is there at least partial precedent for this?
Either a Global Arbitration committee or a Global requests committee could do this. Both of those proposals stalled because there weren't any recent examples of issues that required such a committee. Now we have recent issues on both Croatian and Chechen Wikipedias, so it might be time to pass one of those proposals. I agree with Vodomar below that one should always be careful to avoid letting external groups inject their POV into a project by manipulating mass media; but I think a dedicated group, independent of the wiki having problems, is needed to decide if that is what is happening. –SJtalk 07:19, 20 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
There is no admin cabal on hr.wikipedia.org, what we have is a external pressure group, together with part of the Croatian government, and left leaning newspaper trying to destabilise a project to install their POV. If this project is restarted this will give some organisations and some countries a precedent in mounting a campaign to pull apart wikipedia projects because for some reason they do not agree with their agenda. The shutdown/restart of the hrwiki is just an exercise in social engineering. I understand that you need to have formal processes for a wiki restart, however carefully consider what precedences you are now creating. Vodomar (talk) 22:19, 18 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Homophobia: Refusal to allow reference to Ustashi Roman-Catholic Theologists Calling for Murder of LGBTsEdit
Example of extremely virulent homophobia by purportedly "Croatian Wikipedia" (instead, as it should be, Wikipedia in Croat language"): Refusal to allow reference to Ustashi Roman-Catholic Theologists Calling for Murder of LGBTs, linked to Croatian newspapers, with the usage of Croatian variant of Serbo-Croatian language (so not even their ludicrous and silly claim about "non-Croatian language" would apply, yet the links were deleted a dozen times!!):
The issue, poor delusional boy, is not about the Croatian version of Serbo-Croatian, which 95% of serious linguists worldwide acknowledge as a fact, despite your own parochial views which are not held even by all linguists in Croatia (cf. Snjezana Kordic -- besmirched brutally on Croat Wiki).
The issue, poor delusional boy, is about HOMOPHOBIA because of the refusal to link HOMOPHOBIC ATTACKS on the Pride in Split with the HOMOPHOBIC calls by THEOLOGY PROFESSORS of the Roman Catholic Church IN CROATIA, which are IN DIRECT OPPOSITION to the tennets of the GLOBAL Roman-Catholic Church, as EXPLICITLY defined by POPE FRANCIS speaking AGAINST CONDEMNING GAYS.
In case that you forget: find answer here. I have answered you here. Of course, you can call us various names just like you did there, and like you did in edit summary. Interesting, Chinese proxy again.--MaGa (talk)
In case you do not understand:
1. There was homophobic violence durting the Pride in Split event.
2. Prior to that, a professor at the Roman Catholic seminary in Split, a certain doctor of theology, and his complotist, another doctor of theology in Croatia, have SUPPORTED VIOLENCE AGAINST LGBT INDIVIDUALS.
you and your disgusting friends have deleted a link to this repeatedly.
3. What these representative of the church in croatia did is in DIRECT OPPOSITION TO THE STANCE OF THE GLOBAL ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH AS EXPESSED BY POPE FRANCIS.
Clearer now, simpleton?
I have answered already to you that question. You are talking nonsence.--MaGa (talk) 06:48, 18 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
No, you have not answered anything. you have just deleted the info which is necessary as integral part of the text and thus abused the fact that the pro-Ustashi clique of Wiki in croat language admins -- that has caused outrage the world over -- has granted you for beinh one of their cronies.
Then one of your fellow-croat wiki admins came to Serbian wiki to vandlaise that same info in the like manner, writing in Cyrillic to impersonate a Serb but using the Croat and not Serbian varian of Serbo-Croat, so he was unmasked.
It´s a long time since I was here, but as it looks, there is no way to come out whan you are once involved. I have no idea what is going on on hr.wiki and I don´t care, but as it seems, nothing have change. My case was "solved", rules of projects ignored at that time and i´ve lost my trust in the whole wiki community. I´m not talking about hr.wiki but about whole wikimedia. I still can´t understand whatfore there are rules, if they are not followed. It seems to me that there are still projects misused by local admins, owned by foundation, and foundation don´t even care. Why should they? Who cares about projects with 100k on articles, maked for educational purposes in a language that is not en, de, fr or one of other "world languages". It was my illusion that wiki is a non-comercial project to bring the whole knowlage to everyone in his own language. Yes, it was also a illusion of Jimbo. I would appreciate if there is possibility to keep my Nick out of this discussion. I´ve tryed, i´ve lost with love from stewards, so use your own evidences and leave me alone. I´m sick of this, have lost a lot of my time and health for this shit, so please make it on your own. Thanks! --WizardOfOztalk 21:06, 17 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Lots of warnings from German wikipedia. Abolish German, replace with Luxembourgian??? --18.104.22.168 22:06, 17 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Please open a new RfC if you want to discuss that, it has nothing to do with hrwiki. darkweasel94 (talk) 22:08, 17 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Some let wing journalists and activists want to kill Croatian wiki. I justn want to let you konow that we habe a global problem. ASbolish all wikis except engl wiki???--22.214.171.124 22:13, 17 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@IP: We're discussing a process and/or rules here that apply to all wikipedias that for some reason are perceived not to be line with the (universal) core policies and goals. Once we have a reasonable process in place you are free to request them to look at the German Wikipedia if you feel those "sources" show a violation of core policies.--Kmhkmh (talk) 05:12, 26 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I suggest su close German, Russian, Italian, and other non english Wikis as they all have very bad reputation in the media. Globally teachers say that they are not trustworth.--126.96.36.199 22:16, 17 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
For the German Wikipedia there is a global warning in schools: Don´t take every information for granted, there might be mistakes. And so we need readers to use their brain and we encourage them to read also other sources to make up their opinion. This is part of school education in Germany: not to trust like a blind in any authorities. On the other hand we encourage readers who find errors to make improvements and discuss issues freely on the discussion pages. Errors or incomplete information is a neccesary part in a developing Wikipedia and unavoidable. Articles are usualy not perfect in the beginning. In fact in several anonymous tests the articles of the german Wikipedia very often have proven, that they contain less errors and better information than articles in trustworthy printed enzyclopedias. German Wikipedia has a very good reputation in general. Whenever I tell friends that I´m an Editor of the German Wikipedia I get absolutely positve feedback. "This is great, I like Wikipedia, I use it so often and I find it very helpfull", thats what I hear. They never say: so you are one of this idiots that are telling stupid nonsens and write their political POV instead of proven information. I never heard such a ngeative statement of a German official or politician that is similar to the statement given by the Croatian gouvernment. Shame on infamous Croatian Wikipedia. If all you can do is pointing finger on others you have very poor arguments, especialy when you are not able to read the German Wikipedia. I don´t speak any slawic languagages, but the kind of arguments, personal attacs and so on used in the discussion above tells me very clearly who is right and who is wrong. For now it does not matter if a person is Serbian, Croatian, Bosnian, nationalist, fascist, communist or gay or whatever, this makes an argument not false or right. It just does not matter. What matters is arguments and you don´t have it.--Giftzwerg 88 (talk) 23:53, 17 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
The issue is that once a precedent is created, then that will be used to rule other wikipedia. Yes the calling to close other wikipedia's is probably not fair, but I will ask you a question: Is the shutdown of a wikipedia in a language that you do not understand worth anything to you ? If your answer is no, or I don't care, then why should someone else care about a wikipedia that they do not understand like the one in German worth to them if theirs' is not worth to you. Let thing's just happen. It is the same as buying a T-Shirt for a few coins which is made in some 3rd World sweatshop in terrible conditions, where women are forced to sleep on the factory floor, who work like slaves. But, hey I got the T-Shirt cheap, they have a job their problem. By turning your head you are just adding to the problems. If the hrwiki is made an example of, who knows which other language wiki is next. Have some sympathy for minority languages. Vodomar (talk) 22:29, 18 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
So lets create a precedent. It´s time. If something is too bad to be improved, it is better to delete it.--Giftzwerg 88 (talk) 05:58, 19 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
+1. I don’t see any other viable solution, having read some of the "comments" by hr sysops on this site. ••hugarheimur 19:57, 25 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Similarity between Jovanovic attack on hr.wiki and Katina Schubert attack on de.wikiEdit
The attack from Katina Schubert, member of German ex-communist party Die Linke is similar to this attack of Zeljko Jovanovic from Yugoslav ex-communist party SDP. USSR had KGB, Eastern Germany had STASI, while Yugoslavia (and Croatia) had UDBA. Many Jutarnji list journalists are related to UDBA and many members of the SDP party whose member is Jovanovic. Jovanovic is the former member of communist union of Yugoslavia.
The pattern of the attack is almost the same in both cases. But the reaction of Wikimedia is as we can all see very different. In the first case, Wikimedia gave support to the local community, while in the case when Croatian Wikipedia is being attacked by (ex)communists Wikimedia is opening discussion with suggestions to harm the project by removing the sysops.
It is proven that objections passed against hr.wiki are false. The only arguments are the writing of UDBA related Jutarnji yellow press and Jovanovic (the member of SDP - UDBA related party). The same party in involved in the huge international scandal these days because of protecting former UDBA agent who ordered murders of Croatian activists in Western Europe countries during Yugoslavia regime in Croatia. The result are EU sanctions at this point. Hit "Lex Perković".
The Lex Perković is one of the reasons why Wikipedia is being attacked. Some editors were writing about the case. The son of that man who is the subject of international scandal (Josip Perković) is Saša Perković, the Head of the Office of secret services and national security in the Office of the president of Croatia, Ivo Josipović (also member of SDP - ex-communists party related to UDBA). All the accusations are made to defame Wikipedia in Croatian. The goal is to put some tutors from Serbo-Croatian (which is Wikipedia with strong pro-communist and pro-former yugoslav regime bias) to blank all the data about communist crimes in Croatia. No one promotes fascism in Wikipedia in Croatian but there are persons with communist background who consider that if you are not in favor of communists, you are fascist by automatism. Check those german cases of attacks on Wikipedia community. The pattern is the same.
Please, do not write between lines of my post. If you wish to comment, write below. Thank you. Chvrka (talk) 22:35, 17 September 2013 (UTC) The Berlin Wall was officially referred to as the "Anti-Fascist Protection Rampart".Reply[reply]
According to this loon this has nothing to do with actual content on CW, or administrators pushing extreme-right POV. It's all Communist and UDBA conspiracy. --188.8.131.52 22:56, 17 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Whatever you say about German Wikipedia does not improve the poor reputation of Croatian Wikipedia. I´ts not the others fault. --Giftzwerg 88 (talk) 00:02, 18 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Željko Jovanović is just one politician with big mouth and incapable to solve any problem in his domain. But, he's "capable" to see all 140k articles on hr.wiki in a day and say it is wrong. LOL . Aside from medical articles (he is a physician) his opinion is no more relevant that some bar drunkard.--Anto (talk) 05:35, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
Not that he differes much from the current government. I.E. Zoran Milanović and his famous hit I have no idea--Anto (talk) 05:44, 18 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
So you won´t accept different points of views. Maybe he differs much from the gouvernment, which many people do, does it make them not trustworthy? So whenever somebody has a different opinion he is either a fascist, a communist, a drunkard. A very easy way to get out of discussion. It is this "ad hominem" argumentation that proves you don´t want to solve the problem.--Giftzwerg 88 (talk) 06:15, 18 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
He does not differ at all. He behaves like a typical incapable politician distracting attention into the others' yard. --Anto (talk) 06:13, 19 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Giftzwerg:Do you speak Croatian language? Can you read anything "rechtsextremes". I guess no. You trust citations of the left wing media and the player from "Serbocroatian" wiki here in this discussion! That's all a politically game. Boring.--Croq (talk) 19:44, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
That is the way that antifascist see themselves http://www.sabh.hr/ --Croq (talk) 19:46, 18 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
An illustrative example of admin abuse and mindsetEdit
On Croatian Wikipedia, w:hr:User:Maria Sieglinda von Nudeldorf has copied this userbox from English Wikipedia that says "This user supports exposing pro-fascist bias on hr.wikipedia", and put it on her user page. Afterwerds she invited in the local Village pump for everyone else to do the same, to explicitly "distance themselves from the fascist bias". This userbox was very soon deleted by the admin-in-charge User:SpeedGonsales (the one that was called out in the media by name as supporting fascism and Ustashi ideology) with "vandalism" as deletion summary, and immediately after User:Zeljko (the one that has a picture of the leader of the Nazi puppet-state NDH on his bedroom wall) has issued a three-month block with "attack on the project" as an explanation. Apparently when fascism becomes patriotism and nationalism (Mir Harven's definition thereof), exposing fascist bias get misconstrued as an "attack". --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 23:57, 17 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Mir Harven must define very quickly if fascism is to be blocked or fight against fascism is to be blocked. Above he tells German Wikipedia should be blocked because it is fascist. Had tooo much wodka?--Giftzwerg 88 (talk) 00:08, 18 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
? Too much Schnaps ? Btw, I don't drink alcoholic beverages. If you're German- well, your brain is so admirably washed it can be considered sterile. You don't even know what fascism & Nazism have been all about. Try read Ernst Nolte's books on fascism, Mazower's "Dark Continent", Ian Kershaw's bio of Hitler, Paul Johnson's "Modern Times", Raymond Aron's "Peace and War", ....Wikipedia is not the last word on anything. Mir Harven (talk) 00:50, 19 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I do not agree with the fact that the users should be blocked. --Kolega2357 (talk) 00:42, 18 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I disagree also. Im making the point: The user contradicts himself. Not trustworthy at all.--Giftzwerg 88 (talk) 07:50, 18 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Not true, Troll:184.108.40.206. She's had dozens of edits in 2012 on medical related articles, and five edits in 2013 not including her recent activity on this issue. She's been orders of magnitude more active than myself. And her or anyone else's level of activity is irrelevant to the substance of the current charges. Miranche (talk) 05:32, 18 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
So the problem is proven to last for years. Can you blame a blocked user for not contributing? Strange argumentation! I think it is a very honourable thing to fight fascism. Only fascists must feel threatened by such an user. --Giftzwerg 88 (talk) 06:32, 18 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Until you show that you're willing to fight communism with the same energy (although I doubt you're capable of fighting anything)- you're not convincing. If you're against Mussolini & Hitler (and that small fry, Pavelić), but not against Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Tito, Pol Pot, Castro, Che Guevera...- you are faker & an accomplice of a mass murder:http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/atrox.htmMir Harven (talk) 00:29, 19 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Tahnks for calling me a "faker and an accomplice of a mass murder". By the way, there are no known mass murders among my friends and may be you can leave it to my choice who I´m against.--Giftzwerg 88 (talk) 06:27, 26 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
The claims of fascism present on the hr.wiki pages are excessive. What is happening is that an external group is trying to destabilise the project and take over so they can rule the roost. With Internet being now the dominant force in communciations, information gathering and knowledge management, it is come to the realisation to some circles that the hr.wikipedia.org project is not in their control and that they need this project to fill in part of their communications puzzle. The user's have been repeatedly asked to list the articles that in their mind have problems for the community to reflect and to make necessary changes as soon as possible. But there has been very little input from objectors. Now the whole campaign by the objector is to do a project restart. Vodomar (talk) 22:37, 18 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
And what group is that? I have started this RfC and have absolutely nothing to do with the FaceBook initiative. It seems to me you are a bit too accustomed to behaving as a part of the herd - secret admin-only mailing lists, invite-only IRC channels and so on, so you see "conspiracies" everywhere. Ante Perkovic's way of "handling" the opposition in 2008/9 via the ArbCom was IMHO equally deplorable - wiki should be based on transparency and cooperation of individuals, not secret proceedings and manipulation by the selected few. Everything should be spontaneously self-managed and not driven by some "enlightened leadership". Funny how you ask now for users to list problematic articles - after five days of burying your hand in the sand and dismissing any accusations as a "conspiracy". The vote for running a checkuser on all of the CW admins has currently 16 (let me spell that: sixteen) Croatian editors, each with thousands of edits on CW and elsewhere (they've all gone elsewhere!), voting yes. Yes the project restart is needed because users no longer trust you, the public no longer trusts you, and you little clique has managed to cut the number of active editors in half in little more than a year. You don't care about the project at all - only in pushing your extreme nationalist POV, and the addiction to the "block" button. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 00:33, 19 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Suggestion: start a systematic list of possible abusesEdit
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
In the last few days I've seen a lot of scattered evidence of questionable decisions and content on hr.wikipedia, but no effort has yet been made to compile them systematically in one place. Once this is done it will be easier assess the merits of the criticism & suggest possible courses of action.
This is the way to go. It may become a huge list, so a dedicated subpage is warranted. I'd add separate section for: 1) behavioral abuses, and 2) administrator omissions and differential treatment. Both might heavily feature Mir Harven, as his abuses are as rampant as omissions in sanctioning them. Also, rather than "List of abuses..." I'd suggest the page be named "Investigation of abuses...". GregorB (talk) 10:25, 18 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Also, a couple of ground rule suggestions:
Diff or it didn't happen.
Everyone is free to submit, including IPs.
A brief description of events is welcome. Those not fluent in English are free to submit and comment in Croatian.
Once the page is ready, an invitation should be posted in Kafić GregorB (talk) 10:34, 18 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Thanks for the support, Gregor. I've changed the outline per your suggestions, adding another section ("Allegations to investigate") which lists descriptions of possible abuses that are detailed enough so that the diffs might be found, but that do not itself provide the diffs. Miranche (talk) 17:06, 18 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
That's a good idea. OK, my thinking is currently like this: I'm having second thoughts about the word "investigation". Is there a less antagonizing alternative? Also, do we make a separate RfC, or just create a subpage of this RfC? Don't know how things work on Meta. Timeframe to create it is Sunday (I'll be a bit busy these days, but of course you're free do it sooner), immediately after that I'll notify the four Wikipedias (chances are bs, sh and sr have at least some former or current hr editors - it seems to be particularly true for sh), and that's it. I've been browsing the hr wiki lately and I'm eager by now to document here everything I observed. GregorB (talk) 21:54, 18 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Shifted the categories as per your suggestion. I think a new page under RfC would be justified, if for no other reason than to keep the link short. I'll read up on policy before Sunday. As for "investigation" -- possible less aggressive-sounding alternatives are: examination, analysis, evaluation, scrutiny, assessment, evidence, estimation. Miranche (talk) 00:16, 19 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Perhaps just a subpage of this page named just /Evidence? Reasonably long in total, clear, neutral, grouped with the main discussion.
My latest worry* are Support/Oppose votes. Once the news spread, this may turn into a shouting match and vote stuffing. Is the final vote count meant to decide the discussion?
(* I worry about all this a lot. This discussion is very important, and the evidence page is crucial - the future of Croatian Wikipedia quite literally depends on it. We know it, and the folks over there know it.) GregorB (talk) 12:34, 19 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I don't think that voting should be decisive, but consultative, to get a poll of people's opinions. Similar votes of course go on all the time on Wikipedia, I'll post an example when I find one. (I may be naive, but) I think it should be easy to see if & when vote-stuffing is taking place. Miranche (talk) 15:49, 19 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Here is an example of a consultative survey. Its purpose is for everyone to voice their opinion, and discuss it in detail if needed.
I also agree on the page location. As soon as I find the time, I'll move the template there (of course you can do it too), so we can discuss ground rules, categories, etc. I'm uncertain of how legitimate these are with only the two of us talking -- I mean, this conversation is here for everyone to see, I'm linking to it in all of my relevant responses, and I got a thumbs up for the idea from User:Vodomar on hr.wikipedia, but noone else has joined this conversation yet. We should probably first announce the existence of the page and ask for comments on how it should be structured & run.
Specifically, I think the aims of the page should be explicitly limited to providing & discussing specific examples of content & behavior on Croatian Wikipedia, within a certain time period. IMO we need to make sure that the existence & structure of the page are to be completely independent of any considerations on how the information will be used.
There are other practical questions I have, more later. Miranche (talk) 18:36, 19 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I'd say this step is legitimate for two reasons. First, as you correctly noted, this is a survey, it's not really a vote, because we want hard evidence (which cannot be made up), and because there is only one side to the issue (i.e. the evidence of abuse can't be trumped with some "counter-evidence"; you can't be acquitted of murder because you've helped an old lady across the street). So, unlike a vote, this would be very hard to frame in a biased way. It is what it is, and it is non-binding. Second, evidence gathering is virtually the only thing that makes sense now - pretty much everything else would be empty talk.
Fully agree with you on the aims of the page. Would adding a separate section for editor statements, ArbCom-style, make sense?
There indeed are practical questions left. I'll be back online probably by Sunday at the earliest, though. If you do create a page by then, I'd suggest tagging it with "under construction" template until it's ready. While, as I said, time is not immaterial here, I dread rushing this for reasons I've explained, and would also like to get wider feedback beforehand. GregorB (talk) 19:31, 19 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Well, I'm pretty sure that all evidence will be disputed. Whether page content is appropriate or not can be subjective. Also, while you cannot necessarily dispute a block took place, people will of course disagree on whether it constituted abuse. Take a look at the discussion between Speedy & Koryaksky -- S. will maintain that blocking K. for 3 months just for asking for an answer "without further evasion" was justified. But I agree the evidence will be there for everyone to see & pass their own judgements.
"... separate section for editor statements, ArbCom-style" ... could you please point me to an example? Never seen an ArbCom in action.
"Under construction" -- my plan exactly. I'm creating the page now and moving the above examples on to it. Do you agree I should copy this discussion onto its talk page and tag this section of RfC/2013 issues... as archived, with a note to continue any discussion of the page format/structure/function there? Miranche (talk) 21:43, 19 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Should be somewhere else rather than in front of the keyboard, but here I am anyway... Talk related to the setup (i.e. this discussion) should go there too and continue, with a note left here as you suggest.
For an ArbCom case, see e.g. this. The "Statement by..." sections are relevant. Of course, these are for stating personal opinions, while the core of the Evidence page are still individual cases with diffs, as already agreed.
Note also this: individual invitations to editors who are known to have had an issue with Croatian Wikipedia are notcanvassing. The reason is the fact that, in this case, it is not possible to unduly influence the process by doing so, as long as invitations are neutrally worded. I may be wrong or overlooking something here. I'd like to hear feedback on this.GregorB (talk) 22:26, 19 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I still do not see who had a right to conclude that "discussion is completed", since the attacked and rudely denigrated users have not answered. I just see a flood of incivil DDoS attacks on a group of users, made in order to win a debate and impose a PPOV in a content dispute. Kubura (talk) 22:27, 26 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Kubura, I just now see this comment, sorry for the delay in responding. The discussion in this section (I'm not talking about the entire RfC) took place for 2 days, after which everyone who participated in it reached consensus that a fact gathering page should be started. Everyone was free to join the discussion during this time and participate, agree or object. After that, the discussion continued on the talk page of the evidence page for another 10 days before the page was open for submissions, during which time there was a prominent link here to that same page. Likewise everyone was free to participate in that discussion.
Most importantly, the same talk page is still open for participation, so if you have any concerns about how the evidence is being gathered, suggestions on how it should be organized, or reasons why it should not proceed, please feel free to join the discussion. Miranche (talk) 04:42, 30 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Several users in this discussion expressed their belief that administrators on Croatian Wikipedia have sockpuppets. On the other side, administrators on Croatian Wikipedia should welcome CheckUser investigation. If they have nothing to hide, then checkuser will only prove their innocence. So I suggest the following:
Uninvolved steward from Meta will conduct checkuser investigation on all sysop accounts on hr wiki;
Administrators having sockpuppets who have abused multiple accounts will be desysopped and sanctioned;
If no administrator having sockpuppets is found, then all users who accused hr wiki administrators for sockpuppeting on this page will be warned. If they continue with accusations in the future, they will be blocked.
# Oppose--B. Ivsi (talk) 17:02, 18 September 2013 (UTC) if you can not identify myself, than it is useless to use checkuserReply[reply]
I suggest that the above vote be struck, because we're dealing with a single-purpose account with no edits anywhere else but this Meta discusson. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 18:23, 18 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Oppose "The tool should not be used for political control; to apply pressure on editors; or as a threat against another editor in a content dispute. There must be a valid reason to check a user." --Roberta F. (talk) 19:05, 21 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Oppose Shouldn't be used against a group of editors, unless there is reasonable evidence of sockpuppetry for every individual editor in this group. Unfortunately, I was not fully aware of the policy when I initially gave support. GregorB (talk) 00:47, 30 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Simply having sockpuppets, that's problematic I think because there are legitimate uses for them, such as a clean start or an account to use through insecure connections. I'd say only those who abused them in some way should be blocked if at all. darkweasel94 (talk) 09:31, 18 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I changed the wording to address your concerns.--Wikit 10:36, 18 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
All administrators who have the sockpuppet accounts block them permanently. --Kolega2357 (talk) 09:49, 18 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
@Wikiwind: Any administrator who is abusing multiple accounts should be permanently blocked and that his all rights remove. --Kolega2357 (talk) 10:51, 18 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I proposed to ban all voting from hr.wiki, and to remove it to Meta. All wiki users who want to vote must clearly identify themselves, like CU procedure. Please note that my nick is also cloak, and I would like CU to try to connect me to my real name (and send me e-mail, please). FYI, I even did not want to hide my data or use proxi or something else. --B. Ivsi (talk) 17:07, 18 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Administrators have an aversion to this because they are afraid of their guilt and responsibility for the damage the project. --Kolega2357 (talk) 20:36, 18 September 2013 (UTC)Reply[reply]
It very suspicious that sysop Kubura (who is one of accused here) has gap in contributions starting on 13. rujna (September 13), and Chvrka resurfaced next day - 14. rujna (September 14) -- Bojan Talk 07:10, 19 September 2013 (UTC)Reply