Requests for new languages/Wikipedia Manchu 2

main page Request for a new language edition: Wikipedia Manchu 2
submitted verification final decision
Applications-system.svg This language has been verified as eligible.
The language is eligible for a project, which means that the subdomain can be created once there is an active community and a localized interface, as described in the language proposal policy. You can discuss the creation of this language project on this page.

Once the criteria are met, the language committee can proceed with the approval and will verify the test project content with a reliable neutral source, such as a professor or expert.

If you think the criteria are met, but the project is still waiting for approval, feel free to notify the committee and ask them to consider its approval.

A committee member provided the following comment:

The request for a Manchu Wikipedia is eligible. (Note: Objections stated below concerning computerization of the script have since been resolved.) Please contribute to the test project at incubator:Wp/mnc.
It is not clear to what extent Xibe and Daur are different from Manchu, at least as written languages. People fluent in those languages should certainly feel free to contribute to the Manchu test project if they are comfortable with the written language. If anyone wants to create a separate project in Xibe or Daur, please make separate requests, and please try to include evidence that the written language is materially different from Manchu. StevenJ81 (talk) 17:25, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
  • The community needs to develop an active test project; it must remain active until approval (automated statistics, recent changes). It is generally considered active if the analysis lists at least three active, not-grayed-out editors listed in the sections for the previous few months.
  • The community needs to complete required MediaWiki interface translations in that language (about localization, translatewiki, check completion).
  • The community needs to discuss and complete the settings table below:
What Value Example / Explanation
Proposal
Language code mnc (SILGlottolog) A valid ISO 639-1 or 639-3 language code, like "fr", "de", "nso", ...
Language name Manchu Language name in English
Language name ᠮᠠᠨᠵᡠ ᡤᡳᠰᡠᠨ / manǯu gisun Language name in your language. This will appear in the language list on Special:Preferences, in the interwiki sidebar on other wikis, ...
Language Wikidata item Q33638 - item has currently the following values:
  • en label = Manchu
  • native label (P1705) = ᠮᠠᠨᠵᡠ ᡤᡳᠰᡠᠨ
  • instance/subclass (P31/P279) = language, modern language / Manchu‑Jurchen
  • Wikimedia language code (P424) = mnc
  • writing system (P282) = Manchu alphabet, Mongolian
  • number of speakers (P1098) = 20


Item about the language at Wikidata. It would normally include the Wikimedia language code, name of the language, etc. Please complete at Wikidata if needed.
Directionality Vertical, LTR per lines Is the language written from left to right (LTR) or from right to left (RTL)?
Links previous request
Online keyboard for Manchu 太清在线输入法:满文
Links to previous requests, or references to external websites or documents.
Settings
Project name ᡠᡳᡴᡳᡦᡳᡩᡳᠶᠠ "Wikipedia" in your language
Project namespace ᡠᡳᡴᡳᡦᡳᡩᡳᠶᠠ usually the same as the project name
Project talk namespace ᡠᡳᡴᡳᡦᡳᡩᡳᠶᠠ ᠮᡳᠨᡳ ᠯᡝᡠᠯᡝᡥᡝᠩᡤᡝ "Wikipedia talk" (the discussion namespace of the project namespace)
Enable uploads no Default is "no". Preferably, files should be uploaded to Commons.
If you want, you can enable local file uploading, either by any user ("yes") or by administrators only ("admin").
Notes: (1) This setting can be changed afterwards. The setting can only be "yes" or "admin" at approval if the test creates an Exemption Doctrine Policy (EDP) first. (2) Files on Commons can be used on all Wikis. (3) Uploading fair-use images is not allowed on Commons (more info). (4) Localisation to your language may be insufficient on Commons.
Optional settings
Project logo File:Wikipedia-logo-v2-mnc-mong.png This needs to be an SVG image (instructions for logo creation).
Default project timezone Asia/Shanghai "Continent/City", e.g. "Europe/Brussels" or "America/Mexico City" (see list of valid timezones)
Additional namespaces For example, a Wikisource would need "Page", "Page talk", "Index", "Index talk", "Author", "Author talk".
Additional settings Anything else that should be set
submit phabricator task (includes everything automatically, except additional namespaces/settings)


ProposalEdit

  • Number of speakers: 20 to 50 Manchu, 170,000 Xibe, 132,000 Daur, estimated 1 to 1.2 million ethnic Manchu and Han people speak basic & simple Manchu language
  • Locations spoken: China, Taiwan, Japan, United States
  • Promoting organizations: <http://www.qiren.cn/>
  • Gertraude Roth Li who wrote , Manchu: A Textbook for Reading Documents , taught Manchu at the University of Hawaii and the University of California at Berkeley.
  • Jerzy Tulisow wrote (in Polish…) a small (192 pages) but complete and inexpensive Język mandżurski (« Manchu language »), coll. « Języki Azjii i Afryki » (« Languages of Asia and Africa »), Dialog, Warsaw, 2000.

DiscussionEdit

Arguments in favourEdit

  • Support However, how will do you computerize this wiki? --Yes0song 15:34, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Support Just because Tungusic languages are very important in Siberia and I personally believe that the great Manchu nation is one of the most glorious Siberian nations. But some test project would be desiderable. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 23:49, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Support As Japanese and amateur philologist, I am fully for your proposal. Cheers, --Aphaia 15:51, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
  • SupportWelcome to Wikipedia - it is a language with history and the Manchu is alive, for that reason it deserves its place in the Wikipedia - Numa
  • Support.It's a important languague.--Ffaarr 07:55, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Support.It is an important language to scholars interested in the history and culture of the Qing dynasty and its interactions with nieghboring nations. Abstrakt 02:34, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Support - Manchu is still a living language. Here is an Online Manchu forum with lessons (in Chinese). Nevertheless native speakers are required in order to bring this Test-Wikipedia to life. --Jose77 22:40, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Support To make Wikipedia will help to save Manchu language since this language is historically important on East Asia. --Masoris 07:44, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Strong support!!: Save the Manchu language from endangerment!! Long live Manchu language!! --Edmund the King of the Woods! 19:43, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Support--Uannis 20:34, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Support--Kafkasmurat 18:30, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
  • Support - the Manchu language is a language with rich cultural heritage in Asia and deserves it. Bogorm 10:21, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
  • Support--Use traditional Manchu script. --虞海 (Yú Hǎi) 07:02, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
  • Support Willy2000 14:01, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
  • Storng support I think Manchurian Wikipedia must have. Population of Manchuria was never caught suddenly with Chinese language Wikipedia. They even have their own language. It must have Manchu Wikipedia.--Lousyi 02:51, 13 June 2010 (UTC)
  • Strong support life for Manchu Wikipedia.--Md. Farhan 10:05, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
  • Support Support Chabi 06:31, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
  • Strong support --Jugydmort 22:21, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
  • Support per Whlee. Just because a language has few speakers doesn't mean we should not include it; if anything, we should contribute to its preservation and revival. I intend to work on the incubator to transcribe the Latin-alphabet articles into the Manchu script to aid in this. Once CSS3 writing mode is more widely supported, I think formatting the articles to be vertically displayed would help in its growth. Mnmazur (talk)
  • Strong support Here to show some support to the language of my ethnicity. Many of my Manchu friends can come here creating articles without problems--Šolon (talk) 22:15, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
  • Support From 2007 to now 2016, according to my understanding, there are many more Manchurian people in mainland China picking up this language over this period of time and thus many more people could help out this project. But the accessibility problem of Wikipedia in Mainland China might make the surge in interest irrelevant to Wikipedia?C933103 (talk) 04:41, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
  • Support I think we are need this wikipedia.--Baskervill talk 10:44, 6 January 2017 (UTC)
  • Support, Manchu is a very important language in the history of China and has had a major influence on Chinese and world history. Even that aside having a Manchu-language Wikipedia would mean that there would be more incentive to finally make vertical script support a Mediawiki extension and pave the road for other vertically written languages like Inner-Mongolian, Classical Chinese (which already has its own Wikipedia), and others. Even if there are very few native speakers the language itself is still taught in several Manchurian universities such as the University of Harbin and scholars of the language could use a potential Manchu Wikipedia as a source of how the language looks and functions making it an educational tool beyond a simple encyclopedia. I think that a version of the Manchu Wikipedia should already be created in the Incubator to see the viability of the project. Sent 📩 from my Microsoft Lumia 950 XL with Microsoft Windows 10 Mobile 📱. --Donald Trung (Talk 🤳🏻) (My global lock 😒🌏🔒) (My global unlock 😄🌏🔓) 18:08, 14 November 2017 (UTC)
  •   Strong support --Assoc (talk) 12:49, 25 January 2018 (UTC)
  • Support 夢蝶葬花@生涯不敗 08:45, 25 September 2018 (UTC)
  • Strong support As a Wikipedian of Manchu descent, I definitely support the program. It has been recognized as a critically endangered language spoken by a few native speaker in Heilongjiang Pro.. Above all, it shared a high status of the common language during Qing period. --MiiCii (talk) 09:35, 24 November 2018 (UTC)
  • Strong support --Sharouser (talk) 03:51, 7 December 2019 (UTC)
  • Support --Siam2019 (talk) 06:05, 28 January 2021 (UTC)
  • Support 𝓘𝓻𝓴𝓱𝓪𝓶𝒯𝒶𝓁𝓀 :) 06:24, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

Arguments againstEdit

  • Oppose until the first native speaker crops up here. --Janneman 13:37, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
  • That is the biggest challenge i am facing up to now, if at least a Sibe or a Manchu native speaker crops up here and correct my eventual mispelling or grammatical mistakes then we would be able to see significant improvement.Whlee 07:52, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Well, I know few Manchu or Sibe native speakers, but the problem is they are not good at speaking English.--Šolon (talk) 22:15, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
  • Oppose As long as the section "Articles in preparation" does only contain stuff like "my", "this" etc. pp., which is not suitable for an encyclopedia but rather for a dictionary (so why not proposing a Manchu Wiktionary first which I would strongly support), I don't see the neccessarity for such a project. I know that the language has been (and still is) important, but if nobody is really willing to write some articles, I have to oppose. All existing articles that I can find in the Incubator wiki are empty pages. --Thogo (talk) 14:07, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
  • According to Ethnologue there are only 80 people that speak the language. GerardM 07:02, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
June 2008, Acheng District, Harbin, the Harbin Science and Technology Vocational College listed Manchu as a major. It is the first vocational school to teach the Manchu language as a major in China. [9]--虞海 (Yú Hǎi) 04:38, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
Manchus have a strong independent culture which still affect a large number of people in Manchuria. Although Manchu language might not be a native language of a large population, it is still the second-language of a significant population in China and some other countires. -Kszkkk 04:36, 8 February 2011 (UTC)


  • Oppose. Althought I would be very pleased to see a Manchu Wikipedia happen, I don't see the point of starting this until some people who actually use the language are available to write it.—Nat Krause 16:19, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Oppose No, no romanlized article. Create it until it uses tradition Manchu script. --虞海 (Yú Hǎi) 07:02, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
1000000% OPPOSE should be rejected --72.68.34.5 21:08, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
Indented IP !vote —Dferg (disputatio) 22:50, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
  • Strong oppose until native-script rendering support is available; oppose in general principle against creating a Wikipedia for a language with only <100 native speakers, all of whom are also fluent in at least one other language that has a Wikipedia. The mission of Wikimedia is to transmit knowledge, not preserve languages. Deryck C. 16:39, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

General discussionEdit

  • Support However, how will do you computerize this wiki? --Yes0song 15:34, 9 April 2007 (UTC)
It would take time but nothing is impossible because we will make a Main Page containing translitterated (written in Romanized/Möllendorf script) form and Manchu alphabet form.
Have a look at :
Tigrinya Wikipedia
Khmer Wikipedia
Cherokee Wikipedia
Inuktitut Wikipedia
Sinhalese Wikipedia
Gothic Wikipedia
and Cree Wikipedia.
Then you will understand how we will work.
Thank you for supporting Manchu Wikipedia. 고마워요 ! Whlee 14:46, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

How widely known and taught is Manchu? Do lots of people still learn it in universities?--Fox Mccloud 21:03, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Manchu language is taught by notorious linguist among them :
- Gertraude Roth Li teaching Manchu at the University of Hawaii and UCLA in Berkeley
- Aping Zhao - Heilongjiang University, Manchu Language and Culture Research Center at Harbin
- Andrew Shimunek - Indiana University : he made a Manchu-English Online Dictionnary in 2001
- Jerry Norman - University of Washington he aloso made a Manchu-English lexicon on manjugisun.com
- György Kara - Indiana University : U584 Introduction to Manchu II - Department of Central Eurasian Studies
- Alexander Vovin - University of Hawaii at Manoa
- Giovanni STARY - University of Venice
-Mark C. Elliott, Professor of Chinese and Inner Asian History - Faculty of the Department of East Asian Languages and Civilizations - Harvard, he provides Manchu Language Courses
- Remin University of China
- Warsaw University (Uniwersytet Warszawski) - Institute of Oriental Studies (INSTYTUT ORIENTALISTYCZNY) Section of Inner Asian Peoples - Programme
  • I think some of you guys in this page really need to learn about the REAL current status of Manchu languages. People can not only learn it in colleges but also in middle and high shools of many places in Manchuria, the northeast China. See the links of proof: [3][4][5][6](Chinese reading ability required); And also many volunteers who teach Manchu languages in society for free, see: [7][8][9][10] (Sources also in Chinese simplified). So there are a lot of more speakers than the 70-80 ones in your mind.--Šolon (talk) 23:55, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
  • Oppose As long as the section "Articles in preparation" does only contain stuff like "my", "this" etc. pp., which is not suitable for an encyclopedia but rather for a dictionary (so why not proposing a Manchu Wiktionary first which I would strongly support), I don't see the neccessarity for such a project. I know that the language has been (and still is) important, but if nobody is really willing to write some articles, I have to oppose. All existing articles that I can find in the Incubator wiki are empty pages. --Thogo (talk) 14:07, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
1) About section "Articles in preparation" that section will disappear soon because i am cleaning the main page as you can see building frames categories (Mathmeatics (Tonocin), Geography (Natacin), abka shu tacin (Astrophysics), Biology (Banjirsu tacin), Litterature (s'u tacin), Music (Kumun) etc... as it was written above it is only an ALPHA version (pilote test; Wiki Incubator). You can also see the status of this Manchu version of Wikipedia. you are right those stuff will be removed and will be suitably added to Wikitionary.
2) empty pages: That's right most of those articles are empty excepting 5 articles and one template. See "Articles written only in Romanized Manchu language". As you can see i'm trying to learn Manchu language it is not easy but remain feasible. Be patient, perseverance has always been rewarded up to now.

Whlee 07:53, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

  • I hope CSS will support vertical writing and this wiki will introduce automatic converter between Latin (horizontal) and Mongolian (vertical) alphabet. --Yes0song 06:06, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
    • ASL test wiki is vertical.C933103 (talk) 04:42, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
  • I'm afraid there are not enough speakers. At least can anybody out here speak this language? --Wisconsus 15:08, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
    • Bi oci Manju niyalma inu. Seme mini niyamangga gisun oci Nikan gisun, tuttu bicibe manju gisun be majige bahanambi, daruhai baitalara gisun be gisureme mutembi. Bi tutala manju gucu be bimbi. Tesei Manju gisun ele nememe kemuhengge. Eicibe niyamangga gisun i niyalma be manggasika baihanambi, manggai urehe manju gisun i baitalasi oci tutala. (I am Manchu. Although my born language is Chinese, I can still speak some Manchu, like daily conversation. i have many Manchu friends. Their Manchu language is even better. Perhaps it is difficult to find born speakers, but fluent users are still many.)--Šolon (talk) 23:05, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
  • Strong Support: First, I can find native speakers with no problem. I, myself even speak the language. Second, even if there is a problem to display Manchu scripts, it is still not the reason to reject. Because the language can be absolutely well expressed in Möllendorff transliterations. Otherwise, vertical writing alphabets are difficult to display in Wikipedia and also the most of websites anyways, Manchu lingustic users should not have to wait because of technical problems. It is simply inhuman. What appropriate is, writting articles on Manchu Wikipedia by using Möllendorff transliterations while waiting for the best technical solution of vertical writting display on the other hand. Wikipedia is the place where everybody creates articles to give free knowledges, not the place making difficulties to obstruct others accessing to the knowledges.--Šolon (talk) 23:38, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

Question: how compatible is the written Sibe language with written Manchu? Sibe has a lot more native speakers, but it is of much less interest to historians and language revivalists. Could Sibe people and Manchu revivalists use the same Wikipedia?—Nat Krause 16:26, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

  • Sibo language gets a code “sjo”. Sibe people moved to Xinjiang in 1764, and is a recognized ethnic groups in PRC. They may be related to Manchu or Xianbei. See Xibe language for the difference between Xibe and Manchu language. IMHO Xibe is not an endangered language as of Manchu. --Hello World! 04:39, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Require confirmation, someone say that, despite the Sibo language being a low-intelligibility variant of the Manchu language, the literary standard of Sibo language is still same as Manchu, much like how people continued to write in Latin in Europe despite people no longer natively. Is that a correct description to the relationship between Sibo and the orthodox Manchu language?C933103 (talk) 04:21, 25 September 2018 (UTC)

@C933103: Just note, that the approval is considering now: [11]. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 00:08, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
I am aware of the mail and thanks for notification but why are you pinging me here when that is unrelated to the question I posted?C933103 (talk) 02:02, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
@C933103: Because Amire has noticed that the Manchu translations of MediaWiki interface are mixing of Manchu and Latin scripts, and they want to know the reason for this. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 11:37, 1 June 2021 (UTC)
@Liuxinyu970226: First, I think it'd be better to ask those who make the translation and write on incubator directly, and second, from the limited amount of Manchu related discussion O have came across before, people typing in Latinized Manchu text didn't appears to be all too uncommon while Manchu Script is still being used in writing the language. C933103 (talk) 12:53, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

Language committee questionsEdit

Yeah, so the activity in translatewiki and Incubator is indeed noticed, but I would love a clarification from the people who contribute to the Incubator and translatewiki about a few points:

  1. Is it actually Manchu (mnc) or Xibe (sjo)?
  2. Is it supposed to be written in the Manchu vertical (Mongolian) script or in the Latin script?
  3. Are there any other modern materials published in this language, such as websites, books, apps, newspapers, etc.? In which alphabet are they published?

Tagging people that I could find in Incubator and translatewiki: User:ᠪᡝ, User:Араси, User:Chulsu463, User:Foavi33, User:K1234567890y, User:Limfurg, User:MiiCii, User:Minggantu, User:Onggit, User:Whlee~incubatorwiki.

Thanks! --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 11:23, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

@Amire80: Why ask the first question? Xibe has its own test project, and even its own request; 2nd question: Yes, any scripts that are under ISO 15924 Mong umbrella, are written vertically, and read left-to-right on every lines, as for Latin scripts, see C933103's comments on the above section; @C933103: needs to answer especially the 3rd question, sorry this is beyond my control. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 11:43, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
Also @Joseph, Romaine, Lolbaby234, ᠶᠣᡠ, Dfh489s48hsb, Bosco1122, MyChHoIn, Θεπ, and Planetnight: they were also active contributors of the test. I have some additional questions to ask to the Manchu speakers: How do we translate the "Wikipedia" and "Wikipedia_talk" in Manchu? Do we need translations of namespace names? Do we need separated localization files for mnc-Mong and mnc-Latn? Do we need additional namespaces created if oneday mnc.wikipedia.org is launched? --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 11:46, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
@Liuxinyu970226:
  1. Why do I ask? Well, I'm really not an expert, but from what I can find online, some people describe Xibe as a modern continuation of Manchu, which is actually spoken and written by a significant number of people and used in publishing. If the language in the Incubator is more Xibe than Manchu, it should probably be designated as such.
  2. I don't understand your response. Currently, the Incubator is written in both Mongolian and Latin, and translatewiki is all Latin. What should the actual Wikipedia be? Mongolian? Latin? Both of them with auto-conversion?
  3. I'm asking because the Wikipedia should be as close as possible to the actual publishing practices in this language, if it exists at all.
Hope it clarifies things. Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 11:55, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

hello. I'm glad to answer these questions(?). and sorry for my really, really bad English.

firstly, Manchu and Xibe are seperated languages. and they have their own wikis I guess. both can be dialects of Jurchen language like Spanish and Portugues derived from latin or Scandinavian languages derived from proto-Germanic. generally scholars seperate these languages.

secondly, it should write in manchu script. and I'm afraid to say it is not Mongolian script. manchu added more dots to distinguish words because of lack of vowel harmony. writing in roman alphabet is modern problem because computers can't write it properly. I recommend to use vertical manchu script. (furthermore I heard about script policy of Mongolia. making vertical wikipedia might be helpful)

lastly, yes plenty of them I guess. textbooks such as 초급 만주어 by 이선애, 満洲語入門20講 by 津曲敏郞, 満洲語文語入門 by 河内良弘. just like English, Manchu don't have official dictionary but both online and offline have dictionaries. there are online dictionaries 満洲語辞典, anakv, buleku. and they have modern words such as tacikū(school), sanat(senate), fidzcin(physics) etc. offline dictionaries are 満州語辞書 by 河内良弘, 만한사전 by 고려대민족문화연구원. in normal books and normal situations, they use vertical manchu script. also dictionaries use them. Chulsu463 (talk) 12:42, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

  1. @Amire80: When people say "Xibe as a modern continuation of Manchu", it mean that Xibe as a branch of Manchu language (no matter its exact degree of divergence from the original Manchu language) in use by people of Xibe have survived and continue to use into the modern day and recognizing themselves as using the Manchu language while the original Manchu language in Manchuria area is less preserved (still not dead). However, according to my understanding, there are quite a number of learners of the Manchu language itself and seems to be using it for various purposes of communication according to my understanding so I would understand it as an language undergoing revitalization. But according to this article I have just came across there are apparently debate and tensions among users and propagators of the language on whether the language should be recovered from remaining native speakers or should the vocal language be reconstructed from the writing directly. But such debate on form of vocal language shouldn't affect the text written in Manchu script. As for the script, from what I have previously came across, most materials including modern materials are in Manchu script, but when in situations like computing environment being not well established, use of Latin script to express the language would also occur.
  2. @Chulsu463: I think what the Language committee want to know is, if you as a Manchu language user think the Manchu Wikipedia should be written in Manchu script, why would you write articles in incubator using Latin script instead of Manchu script? C933103 (talk) 14:55, 2 June 2021 (UTC)
    Indeed, @C933103 is right: In translatewiki almost everything is written in the Latin script.
    And in the Incubator, there are some articles in the Manchu script, but many are in the Latin script.
    Do you plan to rewrite everything in the Manchu script? Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 07:07, 3 June 2021 (UTC)
The following content was posted on the talk page:

I wrote in latin alphabet because I was lazy. but traditionally and modern days Manchu uses Manchu script so I admit I was wrong.

writing Manchu in latin script is due to the computer environment and publishing problem. in general situations, we use manchu script and it is vertical.

and another reason is also important. romanization of Manchu has various forms. such as Möllendorff, abkai, pinyin have Manchu romanizations. and they are not unified at all. but based on Manchu script. for disambiguation and correctness, we should use manchu script.

and if you are hard to make lots of pages, just ignoring romanized articles but upload Manchu pages. I think this might be good idea. Chulsu463 (talk) 20:34, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

In short difficulty in inputting. I wonder if it would help to add the language's support to Universal Language Selector's input method.C933103 (talk) 08:38, 4 June 2021 (UTC)
@Chulsu463, thanks a lot for the responses!
@C933103, actually, we already have two Manchu keyboards. They were contributed years ago by someone who identified themselves as Feilong Huang. They were not documented, so I added documentation:
@Chulsu463, please check these links and tell me if it's helpful for input. If it's not perfect, let me know, and I'll try to improve it.
The more general question is what should be done now with all the content in the Latin letters in translatewiki and Incubator. Are you going to rewrite it? Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 10:14, 5 June 2021 (UTC)

Being one of the contributors in the Manchu Wikipedia incubator, I think the Latin script and the traditional Manchu script can coexist. Using traditional script is more formal and common in published works, but using Latin script in inevitable in some articles containing modern words related to technology and sciences, foreign names, geographical names, species of organisms or films as these words may not be expressed using Manchu language. Another reasons for using latinised script is due to computerising problem and convenience as mentioned by @Chulsu463: above. Some contributors still may not be able to type Manchu alphabet in their computer, so using Latin script is more suitable for them.

In my opinion, I think we can have articles in both Latin script and traditional script, with linkage of the other version provided above the content, like what the articles in the Manchu incubator is adopting ( such as the article daicing gurun), and such way has also been adopted in Hakka Wikipedia and Mindong Wikipedia, with both Hanzi and romanised version. If really only one script is acceptable, I can help providing the content with traditional script, like what I am doing recently using the website abkai.net , but it will take a long time to finish. However, I don’t think that it affects the Manchu incubator to get on its own site. According to Buginese Wikipedia, there is also a mix use of Lontara script and Latin script and it still works well. Furthermore, we can still add, or even rewrite the content using traditional script after the project gets on its own site. And for translate wiki, I think writing in Latin script is fine, but I will be able to help converting them into traditional script if required.

(can someone please help me to transfer the message to the content page as it is now semi-protected, thanks!)

And also, to @Liuxinyu970226: the translation for "Wikipedia" in Manchu is "ᡠᡳᡴᡳᡦᡳᡩᡳᠶᠠ" and "Wikipedia_talk" is "ᡠᡳᡴᡳᡦᡳᡩᡳᠶᠠ ᠮᡳᠨᡳ ᠯᡝᡠᠯᡝᡥᡝᠩᡤᡝ". -- ᠪᡝ (talk) 15:35, 5 June 2021 (UTC)

@ᠪᡝ: First, in Wikipedia incubator as well as other Wikimedia projects, after selecting any input box, for example the search field, or the article editing box, there is a keyboard icon hovering below most input box. After clicking on it and clicking the setting button, there is an option to change the language of input to "Manchu", and two Manchu input keyboard would be available, for anyone using the Incubator website to type in Manchu script. Do you think that is good for editing Wikipedia or is there more work necessary?
Secondly, in most Wikipedia with multiple script, for example in Chinese Wikipedia with Traditional and Simplified Chinese script, or in Serbian Wikipedia with Latin and Cyrillic script, there are "Language converter" feature which help convert between different existing scripts. Someone have said such system could/should also be applied to Manchu Wikipedia, in order to display articles in both Manchu script and Latin script. Do you think there is a need for it? And another question: As you have pointed out, Hakka Wikipedia and Mindong Wikipedia both used Hanzi and Latin script in content, but they have separate pages for each articles instead of converters because of difficulty in converting Latinized text into Hanzi appropriately. Do you think conversion to/from Manchu Script would face similar obstacle, or would it be simpler like those other Wikipedia that have already implemented the system? C933103 (talk) 22:27, 5 June 2021 (UTC)
@ᠪᡝ, thanks for the detailed response!
Are there any other websites in Manchu? Or any modern book publishing? Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 11:26, 6 June 2021 (UTC)
@C933103: Actually I think applying language converter in Manchu wikipedia is a good choice. However, there is several romanization script for Manchu language, such as Möllendorff and Abkai, which is slightly different about using some of the alphabets (for example, Möllendorff transliterate the letter "ᠴ" into c but in abkai it is q), but apart from the alphabet uses, they are normally the same. As I don't know the latin script used in the Manchu wikipedia incubator is in which romanization script (but for most articles created by @Chulsu463: I think is in Möllendorff), I am afraid that using language converter may not convert all the contents correctly as there may be some mix uses of different Latin script in different articles, resulting in one or two letters being wrongly converted into traditional script. In addition, in the Manchu incubator there is some modern words which cannot be expressed into Manchu language till this moment is temporarily replaced using English or other languages (for example Ro-Kyu-Bu!, which is a Japanese light novel, uses Romanized Japanese as the title ), I don't know whether straightly converting these articles or words into traditional script is correct or not. But apart from these issues, I generally support the language converter, as once the converter is applied, there is less script problems and arguments caused when writing and reading articles, as well as satisfying wider groups of people due to the fact that there are still some people using both of the scripts. However, I want to ask a question, as the Manchu Wikipedia incubator is following the way adopting in Hakka and Mindong Wikipedia which is separating pages for each articles into two scripts, once the language converter is applied, what will be the fates of the separating pages? -- ᠪᡝ (talk) 16:34, 6 June 2021 (UTC)
@Amire80: I have found one website that is very useful, it contains not only glossaries and dictionaries for Manchu language, but also books, lyrics, and other kinds of information about Manchu language and the Manchu people. The website also contains many resources for Manchu language learners. However,as the website is in Chinese, I think non-Chinese speakers may need some tools or translators while reading the website. Hope this can help. -- ᠪᡝ (talk) 16:37, 6 June 2021 (UTC)
@Amire80: Additionally, If you want to find some books published, you can read the following books which are about Manchu fairy tales (published in 2004) and Manchu mythology(published in 1986). This book is about Tang poetry which was published in 1985 and it was all written in Manchu traditional sript.-- ᠪᡝ (talk) 16:40, 6 June 2021 (UTC)
@ᠪᡝ:Chinese Wikipedia used to have separate pages in Traditional Chinese and Simplified Chinese, before the converter was introduced. After the introduction of the converter they have merged all the separate pages as they're no longer necessary.
As for there exists multiple Romanization scheme, the language converter is probably capable of converting Manchu script into different romanizations, but if some romanization used same Latin character to represent a phonetic sound that is used to represent another different sound in other romanizaton then it would most likely be a lot more difficult to convert them back correctly. In such case, I would suggest keeping all the Manchu text in Manchu script, and then let the convertor convert them into different Latin script as desired. Words imported from foreign language can be bracketed in -{}- expression or {{lang|langcode|xxx}} template to avoid being incorrectly converted.
But then another thing matter is, what do you think about the interface translation? Do you think there should be a separate Latin character intrface and a Manchu script interface? Language converter wouldn't function for the interface translation. C933103 (talk) 23:29, 6 June 2021 (UTC)
@C933103:Thanks for your reply! You have answered problems that I initially thought were hard to solve, and I am looking forward to the application of the language converter. What further actions do we need to do for it? Furthermore, as you have mentioned about merging articles, is it merging all articles into Manchu script, or Latin script, or base on their creation time and other factors?
For the interface translation, although it is better to have both scripts, I think it may need a complicated process in order to separate the interface into two scripts? If it is a complex task, then leaving the interface in one single script may be a better choice (better Manchu script, as it is more formal). One more thing I want to know is what is the situation of our project in the confirmation process? and what can we do to help achieving the approval of the project? Again, thanks for your patient and detailed reply! -- ᠪᡝ (talk) 19:08, 7 June 2021 (UTC)
@ᠪᡝ: First, to launch the Language Converter, I don't think it is possible to launch it on incubator so the first thing need to be done would be to keep on and let the wiki and let it be officially launched, after that you can submit a request on phabricator. Second, about merging articles, it depends on whether editors decided to use one-way or two-way conversion. If it's either decided to use only one romanization or if there are no conflict between multiple romanization scheme, then articles can be kept in either script, if I recalled correctly in Chinese Wikipedia's case they kept whichever that was created earlier, after including content from the other page into the text. The language converter should be able to handle the situation directly and let user enter the article title in either script and then get the desired page. But on the other hand, if it is desired to convert Manchu script into multiple different ways of romanized Latin script, then I think it would be possible to put everything in Manchu script and then let the converter convert them to different romanization scheme. Either way, this can be done after actually getting a language converter in place, but I think it might be better to cease creating versions of articles that are just transliteration of one another.
As for interface translation, if editors decided to stick to one single script, then you would need to convert all the other messages back to that script. Else if second script is deemed necessary, then a second translation file can be created, and on translatewiki.net it would be possible to first copy over the entry in that script into the new script one by one, before manually filling in the rest and change the entries in original file back to the appropriate script.
As for situation of the project in confirmation process, in fact according to what I saw on public mailing list (accessible here), some have already proposed the approval of the Manchu Wikipedia. However, what is necessary to do is to find an expert/known speaker of the Manchu language and let them verify the content of the incubator is indeed written in Manchu instead of some other things, and to make such confirmation to the Language Committee. I think you can speed up the process by recommend to the Language committee which Manchu professors could help in checking and verifying the content of the pages are indeed in Manchu. C933103 (talk) 23:21, 7 June 2021 (UTC)
Actually, it is technically possible to use the language converter in the Incubator. This is done for the Tachelhit language for example (also known as "Shilha"). For an example, see the page that incubator's main page, and try clicking "Taclḥit" or "ⵜⴰⵛⵍⵃⵉⵜ" tab at the top. If you can give me the conversion rules, it's possible to make it (you can send to my email, amir.aharoni at mail.huji.ac.il).
The reason I asked for examples of websites is that I want to see how is this language used online: with the Latin script, the Manchu script, or both. If you think that both the Manchu script and the Latin script are useful for user interface, I can configure both in translatewiki, although I'd love to see examples of how is something like this done on other websites. If you think that having the user interface in just the Manchu script is enough, can you rewrite the current translatewiki translations in it? Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 08:20, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
For localization of interface, what about doing these instead? Add mnc-Mong and mnc-Latn to twn, and ask Manchu people to use both variants codes rather than directly using mnc for translations? For verifying from professors of Manchu, try contacting the universities? HLJU, IMU, IMNU, MUC, SYNU, LNU, HBUN...? --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 12:44, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
@Amire80: As the other contributor have identified one latin transliteration being used as Möllendorff, you can take the first column of https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Transliterations_of_Manchu&oldid=965008872 and then the fourth column to establish a conversion table. C933103 (talk) 16:23, 11 June 2021 (UTC)

@Amir E. Aharoni I agree on to write both Manchu and Latin transcription at the same pages like Kazakh wikipedia. thus, I corrected manchu transcription. Help:Extension:UniversalLanguageSelector/Input methods/mnc

To type this letter Type this key Comment
a
e
i
I
o
v
ū
u
n
ng
b
p
h
H
h'
m
l
s
x
š
t
d
q
c
C
j
J
y
r
w
f
k
K
k'
ts
z
dz
G
g'
R
ž
@
#
$
& nirugu
+ +
{
}
[
]
<
>
,
.
. /

I think this is enough to transcript latin alphabet to Manchu script. chulsu463 (talk) 13:42, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

@Chulsu463: This table is probably good for typing Manchu text into Wikipedia in Manchu script, but I don't think it is a good idea to use this for conversation table, especially for the punctuation part, as the converter will convert everything in the text into the other script strictly according to the table, for example if someone type "$3000", then following this conversation table, it would be displayed as "—3000" in Manchu script. Or if someone type the nirugu in Manchu script, then it would be converted into "&" in Latin script. Hence, while this is a good table for typing Manchu text, this does not appears to be suitable for directly converting already published text between Traditional Manchu Script and Latin Script. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by C933103 (talk) 2021-09-20 12:57

Regarding verification of contents, I'm trying to contact the Inner Mongolia University (IMU), should there have any response from their professors, I will transfer their texts to langcom members. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 03:20, 15 October 2021 (UTC)