Grants talk:Project/J. Patrick Fischer/Wikipedia Timor-Leste 2020
Goals and activitiesEdit
(Immediate disclaimer: I am a staff member of the WMF, but I write this on behalf of just myself and not as part of my WMF role.)
I generally think that it's a good idea to invest in the development of Wikipedia in small languages, and that it's also a good idea to run a project that targets only one language, as long as it's planned well and has clear goals.
However, I have some doubts about this proposition. I may move to support it if they are cleared.
It says: The main goal is to create a permanently active Wikipedia scene in East Timor, both online and offline, through knowledge transfer. How will you measure that a scene was created? By the number of active editors? By an increase in the number of pageviews? By the amount of organic media coverage ("organic" means "not initiated by PR outreach")? By some other metric?
It's up to the people who will run the project, but a couple of metrics I can suggest are:
- Growth in pageviews to tet.wikipedia, accounting for seasonality. Here's the data for the last three years. (It has some spikes, probably caused by bots, but check with the maintainers of the Pageviews API.)
- Growth in the % of pageviews to tet.wikipedia from the country of East Timor. This data is not totally public, but it can be quite easily obtained using the Turnilo tool.
Ideally, define the creation of an encyclopedia in the traditional national language as a "national task". - Most successful Wikipedia projects were not defined as "national tasks". The only exception I can think of is the Armenian Wikipedia, and I'm not sure that this is a good example either. A successful Wikipedia is usually a combination of a strong tradition of access to education (literacy, high school, college), diverse language usage (books, newspapers, journals, informal writing), and a good economic situation that allows people to have Internet access and free time to contribute. More or less all the language in which these conditions exist already have successful Wikipedia projects.
Gaining local supporters (business, NGOs, foreign representations, authorities, universities, church) - again, how will you measure the success of this goal?
Acquisition of permanent employees in the Tetun Wkipedia and possibly other Wikimedia projects - what do you mean by "employees"? Paid staff or volunteers who make contributions regularly? In any case, how many people are you talking about?
Advertise, advertise, advertise - do you have a model for a successful Wikipedia advertising or PR campaign? How familiar are you with the media in East Timor?
Workshops - Workshops are known to have dubious results, unless planned and targeted very carefully. See this example: en:Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2016-12-22/Op-ed. Do you have a plan about how to make sure that the workshops will have useful impact, other than teaching people to do things?
The number of articles in the Tetun Wikipedia should increase significantly within one year and above all the content quality must improve - What do you mean by "increase significantly"? And how will you measure the content quality?
Again: I am not totally opposed to this. Quite the contrary, I think this proposal is a good start, but it does need more focused goals, and it needs to show that it learned from the issues that were encountered in similar projects in the past.
- Dear Amir, thank you for your comments. I am very interested in learning about the experience of similar projects.
- Measuring of the success: I believe an offline community is necessary to keep a project alive. Many Wikipedians are working as single person online and many Wikipedians are organizing projects online, but the personal contact makes group cohesion strong. I think, a group of Wikipedians, who is regular organizing meetings and events can do this. I want to take my Munich community as example. There is a group of approx. six persons running regulary the local WikiMUC "office", the supporting group has maybe 25 heads. This group is organizing the main work of public realtions, organizing work shops and offline events, with a regular media coverage. People coming regullary to the monthly meetings ("Stammtisch") with 10-25 persons arecounting totally more than 50. OK, Munich has as many inhabitants like whole East Timor, but a inner circle of 30, with 5-10 regular active people, making 2+ events per month would be the basement. The second measurement is the article number. After the project should be a regular work on articles on basis artcles be visible. Not irregulary a few articles, organized work on themes, on going creating of articles. Only with content, people will start using Wikipedia as information source.
- Why a "national task"? Timor-Leste is a young country, defining itself by its tragic history and is trying to building up its identy by using its cultural roots. There is a big discussion about upgrading Tetun by creating movies, books, etc., using it as language in politics, media and education. But still many sources for information (especially good sources) are only available in Indonesian, Portuguese or English. So, information in Tetun is essential as part of the further nation building, making knowledge available in a language every Timorese can understand. Comparing to the creation of nations in former times, the publishing of the Brockhaus in Germany or the Encyclopedia Britannica had similar effects, tetWP could have in Timor-Leste. Including spreading a standardization of the language as presented by the National Institute of Language.
- Including local organizations is following a little the idea of GLAM. Organizations are having knowledge, which people should have access to. Members of this organizations should bringing content into tetWP or/and check quality there. Starting with simple articles about the country, like they are maybe used in school lessons or medical content, written by medicals. The success is visible, when content is created, maybe with verified accounts of organizations, like the Red Cross of Timor-Leste. Universities are having sometimes the problem, showing their students where to use their knowledge in Tetun. Wikipedia would be a possibility. Students could write Wikipedia articles in Tetun, showing their understanding of the subjects. Especially Rede Feto, the national network of women's network is a big hope for me, bringing women's themes into tetWP.
- "Employees": Sorry, that was a mistake by automatic translation. I want voluntary authors creating regulary content. (I corrected the word.)
- Workshops: Generally, workshops have to meet enthusiasm. Another reason to play the national card for me. Do you remember Wikipedia starts? It was sth new, sth exciting. Today, we are loosing many new member having problems with structure, couldn't finding their own niche. tetWP still have the opportunity to start in a new field. But keeping the authors is only possible, when giving them support. This was missing after former workshops in Timor. Everybody started editing at home alone, but without some other Wikipedians to talk about, this is getting a little bit boring after a while. Mentoring by international Wikipedians will be a help for technical questions, the main, moral support should come by the friends of the local offline community. When we are making workshops in Munich, the newbies who are becoming Wikipedians are those, who are returning to offline events and asking for personal help.
- Advertisement: I gave in Munich several interviews to media like newspapers, radio and TV. We advertised for example for the local Wikipedia day event. In 2018 we had over 200 visitors in our WikiMUC. I gave still an interview to a Timorese news platform in 2014 . Generally, a lot of news is spreading in TL via facebook groups. I just mention this project in the Wikipedia Tetun group and it was shared 40 times. The FB groups of the media would have much more results. Binsar has a friend, who is working for GM TV, but the main support will be the office of the wife of the prime minister, who promised me to help organizing ineterviews with the national TV stations, other medias, organizing presentations, etc. and I got the acceptance of Mr. José Ramos-Horta to supporting the project in public. This should help to catch the interest of media. ;-)
- increase significantly: A exact number is not possible. The number of articles should be big enough, offering a basement content for common Timorese to look to Wikipedia for informations. I am the wrong person, to rate the quality of these articles. This is business of the future local community, which has to create their own quality management. My job is to find people, who are able to do this and want to do is. When the content has reached the needed quality and quantity, tetWP is used by Timorese people (pageviews), the job is done.
- I hope, I could explain my plans a little. So far, I think the support of Mr. José Ramos-Horta, Mr. Fidelis Leite Magalhães and Mrs. Isabel da Costa Ferreira is making it possible to find the attention for Wikipedia, which is needed, to create a little Wikipedia hype in Timor-Leste. --J. Patrick Fischer (talk) 21:27, 8 January 2020 (UTC)
- I think Amir makes a very good point by asking how this approach differs from projects in the past. Comparing Munich with Timore-Leste doesn't take the big differences in the social and economical context into account. Is there any sign that the idea of volunteerism is comparable to Germany, to create a permanent community? Or could this be achieved by having organisations take the lead in building a community? I know you know the country very well, but compared to other countries there are still a lot of very vague factors that make it even more difficult to establish a community.
- On other thing I'm curious about: Wouldn't it make more sense to first check what is possible in Timor-Leste before travelling to Wikimania to involve other people? If there is no support on the ground or you don't know what the support by affiliates needs to look like, having commitments by affiliates or individuals at Wikimania will be pointless. Philip Kopetzky (talk) 18:01, 13 February 2020 (UTC)
- Yes, there is signs of the idea of volunteerism. Starting with the former independence movement including student activsm to our days with human, women and LBGTQ movements. Here is a photo of young people, non paid collecting waste at the city beach. Others are planting trees. Anyway, I am optimistic, because Timorese are telling me, the idea is great. I have now contacts to two universities and three NGO (general, woman and education). I am thinking about contacting catholic church, who is running most schools in the country. So, I want to go both ways: Trying to find independents and organizations, who are supporting editing.
- What was first existing? The egg or the hen? ;-) Having the editors, without having the online support? Or better having support ready to go, if there are editors. I am hoping to find in the Wikiimania further little advices from people from the region. Personal discussions are more effective in my view. Generally, I would have no problem to drop Wikimania, which would add one week more in Timor. The costs are nearly the same, because I have to fly via Bangkok anyhow.
- Thank you for your questions, @Philip Kopetzky:. --J. Patrick Fischer (talk) 18:46, 25 February 2020 (UTC)
A few questions and commentsEdit
The project looks very ambitions. The applicants intend to create the whole editing community just during 21 days of their visit to Timor.
- So, my first question is whether a similar project has been ever funded by WMF? And what were the results?
- The second question is where are you going to find the required number of competent local helpers for translations?
- Who is Knua Joventude? And what is UNDP? You should also spell out other abbreviations and say more about other people mentioned.
- In your budget accommodation and subsistence costs in Bali/Timor are only planned for two persons. But how about BJ Sinaga? And by the way for how long are you planning to stay in Bali?
- I do not have informations about projects of WMF, which are targetting to build up a offline community beside the usual workshops and presentations.
- As mention: BJ is the main local contact. Rofino Leandro Ferreira, Silvestre Pires Castro and Ludivica Pires are friends of him. Nísia Leite Magalhães is a friend of mine. Further support is offered by Rede Feto NGO and the universities UNTL and UNDIL for events there. I want to get further support by the other organizations, which I want to contact for their workshops.
- Knua Joventude/UNDP, sorry I thought United Nations Development Programme is commonly known. My mistake.
- BJ is from Dili and does not need paid accommodation there. He told me about the expected costs for his journey from university on Java back home. Ont he way to Dili we want to stay one night in Bali to catch the flight to Timor the next day. On the return, we are staying two nights in Bali, because it was strongley recommended by travel agency, if there are problems with the flight from Dili to Bali, which occurs really sometimes. I can book the whole trip from Germany to Bali and return as one journey. If I miss a connection, airline is organizing the next flight. But the flight from Bali to Timor is not possible to book via travel agency, so it is my own risk. If I miss the flight from Bali to Bangkok, I have to buy the whole ticket to Germany again. BTW: Meanwhile I am in contact with Bali Wikipedians, which just founded their own language version. Another chance for a Wikipedia event. And the hotel, which was recommended me in Bali, is not at the beach, it is in Denpassar city.
- I can understand your doubts, but I think three weeks just in Dili is not a typical holiday, although there are some highlights. But it does not have the possibilities like Paris. ;-) Doing all the presentations, talking with press and work shops, I don't think, this sounds like a real holiday. Holiday in Timor would request travelling around in the country. It is my second time in TL and I will miss again the two main attractions Tatamailau and Jaco Island ^^°. Because I wear glasses, I am not able to go snorkeling or diving. Maybe I will have time for some nice cups of coffee in the afternoon? Would it be a option, to be a shorter time in Timor? I do not think, because an idea has to have a little time to grow. Just one week in news with presentation and work shops, is too short. Three weeks with repeating reports are having a different effect. And I have to find the people for the community. --J. Patrick Fischer (talk) 19:26, 25 February 2020 (UTC)
Eligibility confirmed, Round 1 2020Edit
We've confirmed your proposal is eligible for Round 2 2020 review. Please feel free to ask questions and make changes to this proposal as discussions continue during the community comments period, through March 16, 2020.
The Project Grant committee's formal review for round 1 2020 will occur March 17 - April 8, 2020. We ask that you refrain from making changes to your proposal during the committee review period, so we can be sure that all committee members are seeing the same version of the proposal. Grantees will be announced Friday, May 15, 2020. Any changes to the review calendar will be posted on the Round 1 2020 schedule.Questions? Contact us at projectgrants wikimedia · org.
Thank you for submitting this proposal!
I am marking this proposal eligible so that the committee can consider your request. However, I want to let you know that, in general, we only fund offline organizing projects that are led by people who live locally in the region. Our experience over the years is that projects led by people who are flying in from different areas of the world are not ultimately impactful over the long run because they are not sustainable, so we rarely pay for travel for organizers, especially if the distance is substantial. We like to see projects led by local people who can continue to build community over time. This is something to consider as your team continues to think about how to structure this proposal.
- Thank you for your comment, @Mjohnson (WMF):! I think, there is a good chance in this case.
- I was invited by South East Asia WP community
- Locals (Timorese and local Wikipedians) are open to this project, if someone from outside making this project as big event. Compare to the comments.
- I have the contacts. May I send the letter of the minister, the mail of the prime minister office, screenshots of the WhatsApp of nobel prize awarded José Ramos-Horta or contact informations to check somewhere to confirm these potential? Greetings, --J. Patrick Fischer (talk) 17:39, 27 February 2020 (UTC)
@Mjohnson (WMF): This proposed project would be led by three people. One of them has attended a number of ESEAP meetings as the East Timor representative. He presently lives in a neighbouring country (Indonesia) and has Wikimedia friends in East Timor (and also in other ESEAP countries). A second proposed leader is the creator of several thousand articles for German Wikipedia about East Timor, many of which have been translated into other language Wikipedias (including by me for English Wikipedia). The third proposed leader is an Administrator of Tetum Wikipedia and speaks Tetum. Frankly, I could not imagine a more appropriate group of three leaders for this proposed project. The fact that two of them live in Germany is really not relevant, save that it makes the transport to and from East Timor a bit more expensive and time consuming. However, in case it is of any assistance, I will also say that I am also hoping to participate at my own expense (albeit not for the full 21 days). I live in another neighbouring country (Australia), have attended several ESEAP meetings as an Australian representative, have been to East Timor, have uploaded to Commons several hundred photos of East Timor, and have created a number of articles about East Timor for English Wikipedia (with more to come). Bahnfrend (talk) 15:47, 1 March 2020 (UTC)
- I think without making clear that this is about self-empowering a community in Timor-Leste with a clear roadmap as to how to get there and what the long-term plan is (with the trip being only a necessary push), this doesn't have much chance of success in my experience. Unless JPF is moving to Timor-Leste, he can't be a leader, maybe a mentor at best. Philip Kopetzky (talk) 07:58, 3 March 2020 (UTC)
- @Philip Kopetzky: My aim is not to be a leader, I want to be the spark to light the fire. As mentioned, I am still in contact with different people, groups and institutions and I want to use the local media to promote Wikipedia. My mission is to find the activists, who want to be Tetun Wikipedians. So far, there were only some workshops and a little competition. Binsar was in this time the engine pushing the activities, but nobody gave the editors the idea to create a community and the media presence was mainly run by the sponsor Timor Telecom, less by independent media.
- The feedback I got from Timor-Leste and other regions of South East Asia for my project idea is very positive. Not only here in the endorsements, but from the people I know in Timor, too. Have a look at the project, who promised me support! I am not going there as a stranger, who has first to find the contacts. I am adding here the letter of support of minister Magalhães. I don't know which conditions could be even better to reach Timorese with the idea of Wikipedia, beside sending a long time Wikipedia ambassador to Timor-Leste (Sorry, my wife and child would never accept this). I have one problem: I can not make final appointments with dates, without having the green light for the project and knowing the exact conditions. That is the reason, I can not give a complete timetable. --J. Patrick Fischer (talk) 20:34, 6 March 2020 (UTC)
- I strongly support this project knowing that the primary objective is capacity building / kickstarter / enabler. The problem it aims to address is the low and no participation of the Timorese Wikipedians in Wikipedia projects and an inactive Timorese Wikimedia community. I still remember when @Ijon: Asaf went to South Korea. That engagement increased interest for offline participation and also led to the creation of Wikimedians of Korea (now Wikimedia Korea). I have been in JPF's shoes when I led capacity building engagements on Malaysia and Myanmar that helped them make their own offline activities and led to their respective applications as Wikimedia affiliate organizations. It is challenging and difficult when I did the capacity building on shoestring self funded budget, not speaking their home language and have small or no prior social connections with the local community. The advantage of JPF is he has a social connection with the Timorese, a network of institutional partnership despite not residing in Timor Leste, and can speak Portuguese. Though we (Asian Wikipedians) have made attempts to engage Tetum Wikipedians remotely via our online campaigns like Wikipedia Asian Month, the local participation is low. For Binsar, even though he went to two of our ESEAP regional events in 2018 and 2019, his movement is limited to those activities only. As long term solution, Wikimedia Indonesia expressed interest to assist Timor Leste Wikipedians in their build-up to be an emerging community and we hope to engage Wikimedia Australia and the rest of the ESEAP communities as well. Wikimedia Portugal also expressed interest in cultural exchange given their respective countries' historical relationships. While regional hub is not yet institutionalized (as what has recommended in the Movement Strategy Recommendations), this project I see is the best ignition / catalyst strategy I can see to help the Timorese group and equip themselves, build medium to long term strategy, and do outreach/ engagements on their own. --Exec8 (talk) 08:36, 7 March 2020 (UTC)
If the Wikimania is canceledEdit
Question about the "problem you're trying to solve"Edit
I am wondering if you can speak more about what problem exists that you hope this initiative will solve. Is it the problem of few articles or little interest in writing or troubles with maintaining commmunity, or something else? I am asking this as the way you will clearly articulate the problem that exists will directly relate to how your project goals are written. Right now, I am unclear which exact problem you have identified and how you will seek to address it (and thus assess the success of your project). Thanks in advance. --FULBERT (talk) 21:25, 7 March 2020 (UTC)
@FULBERT: The problems are:
- Only a few article are written in Tetum, because...
- there are only a few authors, who are not permanently active. One reason for this is...
- there is no living offline community, which activly supports each other, searchs for new editors or makes PR. This causes...
- many Timorese may know Wikipedia in English, maybe in Portuguese or Indonesian, but not in Tetum. If they look there, they would not find many informations.
- Thanks J. Patrick Fischer. This is helpful to understand in this way. --- FULBERT (talk) 21:51, 8 March 2020 (UTC)
- Just to add: According Wikistats, there have been 29 new articles in Tetun Wikipedia in 2019. --J. Patrick Fischer (talk) 20:30, 12 March 2020 (UTC)
- J. Patrick Fischer by " living offline community" do you meant a "user group" or something similar? Regards. T CellsTalk 09:33, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
- T Cells Yes. A group of Wikipedians, who are meeting each others, at least once a month, talking about Wikipedia, while having a drink; organizing offline events, like photo tours and workshops, providing presentations and contact for media about Wikipedia. --J. Patrick Fischer (talk) 17:25, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
- J. Patrick Fischer by " living offline community" do you meant a "user group" or something similar? Regards. T CellsTalk 09:33, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
- Just to add: According Wikistats, there have been 29 new articles in Tetun Wikipedia in 2019. --J. Patrick Fischer (talk) 20:30, 12 March 2020 (UTC)
Questions from User:T CellsEdit
Hello J. Patrick Fischer and thanks for submitting this grant request. I am excited that you want to promote a small language Wikipedia and help to build an active local community. This sounds like a very great idea. I have a few questions and feedback for you.
- I am very happy to read that several workshops have been organized to boost contents and contributors. Who were the organizers of the past workshops and have you tried to reach out to them to ask if they could support this project in some ways?
- Could you please provide a link to some on-wiki reports of these workshops? Perhaps this would help us to understand why the previous workshops didn't work well and help to suggest what you could do differently this time.
- I am happy to learn that you have been writing about East Timor on the German-language Wikipedia for 14 years but do you have experience contributing to East Timor language Wikipedia? Can you provide a link to some of your best contributions to East Timor Wikipedia? This may help us get a sense of your involvement with that language Wikipedia?
- Are there Wikipedians who are native speakers of East Timor language and live in Timor-Leste that might want to help facilitate a local workshop?
- Why did you think English is the best language to use in training participants on how to contribute to East Timor language Wikipedia and not East Timor language itself?
- During your project, what will you do to achieve your goals? Do you have any mechanisms for tracking projects impact after your project is completed? I'd recommend this outreach dashboard in case you are not already familiar with it
- A significant part of your budget appears to be for funding travels to Wikimania. Could you provide insight into why you think that funding two people to Wikimania is the best approach to follow-up with people that will be involved or that are involved with your project?
- Finally do you have experience coordinating a similar project in the past?
- Hello T Cells, thank you for your warm words. I hope I can answer your questions well:
- 1. BJ Sinaga, who is part of the project team, was the main organisator of the old workshops.
- 2. I was following the reports on FB in this times, but I am asking BJ Sinaga. I will ping you.
- 3. As I am not speaking Tetun, my contributions there are stubs, comparing to the German articles. I organized the bot-creating of the suco and posto administrativo articles (sucos are the lowest administrative level in Timor-Leste, postos are the second), providing the data for Doc Taxon, to present a basement for the Tetun Wikipedia. Examples are tet:Fatuhada and tet:Dom Aleixo (postu administrativu). Beside I created some small articles, with the help of vocabularies and friends: tet:Rama dama, tet:Stille Nacht, tet:Ludwig II. (Baviera) (you see, some articles introducing my home region Bavaria to Timor), tet:Emília Pires (the first article about a Timorese woman in tetWP), tet:Yohan Goutt Goncalves (I contacted Timor's first winter olympics athlete to get a photo), tet:Eleisaun parlamentar, Timór Lorosa'e 2017, tet:Eleisaun parlamentar, Timór Lorosa'e 2018 (election results), tet:Same,...
- 4. Yes. BJ Sinaga and the participants in the grant request mentioned: Rofino Leandro Ferreira, Silvestre Pires Castro, Ludivica Pires from Dili, helper, Nísia Leite Magalhães. Nísia is a friend of mine, the others are friends of BJ. This is the WP team. Furthermore, I have my contacts in Dili, giving me support for the workshops organizing and interviews. Mr. José Ramos-Horta, Mr. Fidelis Leite Magalhães and Mrs. Isabel da Costa Ferreira, the office chief of Mrs. Costa Ferreira (who is a big fan of my WP work and is providing photos for WP for years now. He want to organize the appointments witth officals and media), the women's organizations' network Rede Feto, several Facebook contacts, who said, they want to take part of the workshops,...
- 5. English is second choice of course, but it is the language for me to communicate with the Timorese. I am not much worried about this fact. We will prepare the handouts in Tetum and our local team member can assist, if participants can not speak English. Especially students can speak English in Timor-Leste, same about the officials. It is a "working language", according Timorese law.
- 6. Well, I presented how I want to do in the grant request. I have to say, it is the first time, I am hearing about the outreach dashboard. I would have to check first about its functions.
- 7. Wikimania is a possibility to get in persona contact with South East Asian Wikipedians to get the final advices and support. Maybe it is old school, but I think, it is always best to talk from face to face. Wikimania is helpful, but not essential for the project. It is a nice coincidence, I have to fly anyhow via Bangkok to get to Dili. So, there are two possibilities: Making a short stop at Wikimania or going straight to Dili. First could give further outside support for the project, second would give one more week in Timor to work. It is one of the decisions, finally has to be done by the financier. I am open for both. It makes no big difference in terms of money. Flight is the same, hotel only a little bit more expensive in BKK, than in Dili. I split them from the rest of thee cost, because I will ask for a stipendia from WMDE for the Wikimania. If they are paying, this costs are not part anymore of this project. As I can not say, if I can get the ticket from WMDE, I have to insert the costs here.
- 8. I am member of the organization team of WikiMUC, the Wikimedia base in Munich, which is run by volunteers. We are doing continually workshops and presentations of Wikipedia work, including talking to media (photo). Beside Wikipedia, I am active in politics, organizing presentations, evening events and the media presentation of our mayor candidate six years ago. Beside communal politics, my main subject of party work is foreign afffairs, too. Finally, I am consultant for quality management and system engineering. So, organizing and presenting is part of my professional life.
- I hope, I could answer your questions for your satisfaction. Please ask, if you are needing further details. Good night to Nigeria! --J. Patrick Fischer (talk) 22:19, 18 March 2020 (UTC)
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