Requests for comment/Bad usage of money in Brazil

BackgroundEdit

Hey guys, I will not explain some whys, but the situation in Brazil changed, and now the Brazil Program dominate the activities and have a ridiculous huge influence in the volunteers. So if you knew about the Brazilian way of do activities, free, inclusive,no hierarchy, no money... this is not the reality any-more. Now they block people that are exposing problems, have commanders, and almost no activities.

Now, The problemEdit

Do you know that WMF through the Brazil Program will give 10'000 reais [1] ~ 4'500 dollars [2] ~ 3'300 eur[3], in cash as prizes for the WLE Brazil? And for the whole thing 30'850,00 reais ~14'000.00 dollars ~10'220,00 euros. Neither do I! Where this money come from? Who approved? Where is this discussion? ... I tried to ask they here: wmbr:Discussão:Wiki_Loves_Earth/2014#Dinheiro, but they give almost nothing and treated me like a __choose one__.

Did you not find this ridiculous, or overpriced? Ok.
Lets see.. here... Macedonia ask for the prizes for 2014 in cash:
"Prizes will be awarded to the five best photographs (1st prize: €300; 2nd prize: €200; 3rd-5th prize: €100) and the five best contributors (€100 each)."[4] Now, let's compare:

Brazil Macedonia (2014)
Best photo:
  • 1º Place: ~ 830 eur
  • 2º Place: ~ 500 eur
  • 3º Place: ~ 330 eur
  • 4° Place: nothing
  • 5° Place: nothing
  • 1º Place: 300 eur
  • 2º Place: 200 eur
  • 3º Place: 100 eur
  • 4° Place: 100 eur
  • 5° Place: 100 eur
Best contributors:
  • 1º Place: ~ 830 eur
  • 2º Place: ~ 500 eur
  • 3º Place: ~ 330 eur
  • 4° Place: nothing
  • 5° Place: nothing
  • 1º Place: 100 eur
  • 2º Place: 100 eur
  • 3º Place: 100 eur
  • 4° Place: 100 eur
  • 5° Place: 100 eur
Total: ~3'300 EUR 1'300 EUR


Ukraine, in 2013, used ~440 EUR [5] from WMF to cover their awards costs.

Now Wiki Loves Monument, total cost of the prizes paid by WMF, i.e. South Africa (2013) ~ 1800 EUR[6], BeLux (2013) 600 EUR[7]. Remember ~ €3'300 is the total cost of Brazilian awards.

Let's take a walk outside the Wiki, google "photo contest" and you will find: http://www.photocontestinsider.com/, 5 seconds, right? Not difficult to find. Now, go to all contests, ok? Pass three pages. How many hits this price in cash? This that hits it is a NGO, or movements that rely on donations?
And most of the awards are expositions, things to photographers, and as I said in the questioning about the money, if this is a contest to get more volunteers, as the self-titled coordinator said, why this award is not a thing to involve the community, as a travel to Wikimania (3'300 EUR easily pay that)?

But Macedonia will do a event, they expand money in giveways, etc.., and this costs more money, but, in total they will use €3'909,75, and Brazil will expand €10'220,00! And, as far as I know, they just will do a exposition, no data about. Furthermore, in this moment, Brazil have 2'430 photos and Macedonia 4'344, so Macedonia are hitting 1.1 photo per eur, against 0.23 photo per eur invested in Brazil activity (being nice, because I already detected some copyvio, photos of dogs, skaters, builds,...)!!!!!!!

Now you are thinking, ok, but nothing of this matter, because this pass trough the community and they decided that, ..., No!
This prizes was defined by staffs of the Brazil Program and they did not discussed in open space, did not ask about for any volunteers (or at least do not showed me when I asked, and I can't find). So was not even possible argue with the values, in addiction when they set the values[8], they divulged in the media (that's how a discovered)[9], so no discussion was possible... but I tried, just asking, requesting the discussion, not saying anything about the people behind the activity, not using bad words (uhhh) and now I'm blocked (at br.wikimedia.org, the only chapter wiki used by no chapter's volunteers) without most of the answers .

Ok, if they did not pass trough any community, they are not using WMF money... No again, this money come from the WMF, but not for a regular Grant. (???) This money was pre-approved for the Brazil Program, as the coordinators said, because I can't find any documentation about this money, and even when I asked they give me nothing, one of the staffs, that I never worked with, actually I never talked in person, he starts to attack me, and mock me...

At least this activity was accepted by the community? Well, WP-pt to not choose the locations, are not involve in any activities, or even discussion, almost all work is made by staffs of Brazil Program, and some of the news is used to promote the name of the Brazil Education Program coordination, Rodrigo Padula, i.e. [8] [9], and he used the Commons page and br.wikimedia, commons:Commons:Wiki Loves Earth 2014 in Brazil,wmbr:Wiki Loves Earth/2014, to highlight his name, putting others as collaborators... and yes, Brazil Education Program coordination, so this activity is totally out of the scoop, and in the questions he clear said that he is using his WMF paid time to answer questions about the project... and this started, almost non volunteers sign for that.

So what you are saying that this activity was made by a professional, dedicating his work hours to do the project, come on, surely this is a remarkable activity, with the whole structure that WMF and Grant team asked for the volunteers? No, no at all! This 4500 dollars was approved without any kind of things asked in Grant programs, without a goal, without volunteers, without target... special "The efficiency of the proposed use of funds.", it's crystal clear that they do not pass this point. As this was not prepared at all, that not even today in the end of the contest, they don't have a criteria for the evaluation of the photos: pt:Wikipédia:Wiki Loves Earth 2014/Brasil.

Ok, but where is the other 21'000 BRL, this comes from a exposition, but I did not get that when I was questioning about the money, because I was so impressed by the value of the prizes that do not even pass through my mind that they will expand more money on that, more than 3'300 eur. And as I mentioned I can't questioned they, because they don't like people that questioned they. They block and say "you are not welcome here". So, sorry I know nothing about it, but I think not even "contributors" know, because I did not find any page and no indication of where those values ​​came from, only the Coordinator.

So resuming that, the prizes are overpriced, they not consult any community to expend this money, they don't have any discussion about it, no documentation about the money, they do not structured the activity as request in a Grant program, and 30'850,00 reais ~14'000.00 dollars ~10'220,00 euros spend in a activity that

If you are impressed I will draw how much money we are saying that 30'800 reais is Brazil, when WMBR existed we asked 7832 USD, almost haft to run a whole year of chapter spends, spends with a bureaucracy to open a Association at Brazil, plus a WLM in Brazil, and 1482 USD to a microgrant internal program. Not impressed? We did hundreds of activities in Brazil, including workshops, meetings, Jimmy Wales presentation, participation in congress... 2008-2012 I calculate something close to 20'000 BRL, and most of then was used here: Grants:PEG/Michel Castelo Branco - Wikimedians in Brazil/WikiBrasil 2012, 15'000 BRL (if you pay attention in this activity, we reunion a huge variate of volunteers across the country, and Brazil is continental one.) ... Not impressed? Some of old WMBR partners pay to speakers 40 per hour to do workshops, this is a normal value for this kind of activity, so 770 hours of workshops!! We can do 90 workshops of 8 h, and we still have money. As most of activities in Brazil we not used money, we cannot do 30800/0 and compare the % of costs. But one think that we thought back then was at least pay the volunteers transportation, in São Paulo and in Rio de Janeiro this cost 3 reais, 10'266 bus tickets, one to go, and other to come back, 5'133, 3 volunteers per activity 1'711 activities!!! Almost 5 years of activities every single day!!!!!!!!
Not impressed, yet? Ok, I will give a example outside Wiki, if we took this donated money, and donate to another NGO in Brazil, we can build 12 emergency houses for poor people [10], we can give one cup vegetable soup + one bread + one cup of coffee + one dessert (normally a fruit) in Rio de Janeiro (one the most expansive cities here) for 61'600 people [11], or we can alimented in SPaulo 87 families for a whole month[12]. We can vaccinated 508'200 people against meningitis, or we can treat 92'232 people with cholera.[13]... I think that you get that.

What do you think about? Do you think that's ok they spend how much money they want? The value is ok? WMF should check a little better they spends, special in programs? Or is good? If this this is not for the Movement, what we should do? Do I need improve my written English? (this is a yes) We should change our values or their prices? We should at least request the source of the spending in the exposition? Or forget that lets be prepared to the Fifa World Cup?

SourcesEdit

CommentsEdit

By the way, the Wikimedia community is unaware, where WMF money comes from. See Talk:Fundraising 2012/Report#Totals by country. --Perohanych (talk) 10:17, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

I will do not post any comments after this message, but just to remember WMF community about this user (Argenton):
As all of us can see, Rodrigo has been blocked on most of projects because he has a typical conduct of "harassment & trolling purpose" if he is not happy with the situation. He is just trying to prove to himself that he can destroy the image of a new user group (or perhaps your own image), user group that he is not welcomed. So, how many time we will need to lose with this person and your disruptive behaviour? Regards --- @lestaty discuţie 17:22, 22 May 2014 (UTC)
Ad hominem to loose the focus, again, the numbers are there, see what you think.
And Perohanych, I know that the money of WMF come from donations, but, as far I now, this money had to be used with responsibility, transparency, accountability... etc. And as this money to do not appear to community to discuss about it, I thought "ok, this money came from a partner that gave tons of money to spend", but no, this money is from donations, and why they can spend this quantity of money without any process, furthermore, if this is not a Brazil Program activity, as someone is saying, why this User Group can access this money? What was the via to that? Rodrigo Tetsuo Argenton m 20:12, 22 May 2014 (UTC)
 
Wiki Loves Monuments budgets and outcomes
This seems like a pretty modest use of funds to support a pretty awesome contest. With that said, it's worth trying to track the relationship between prizes/award ceremonies and contributions. The WLM evaluation report has some data on this from Wiki Loves Monuments which suggests that there's no strong relationship between large (in some cases >$15K) project budgets and successful outcomes. So it's worth being data-driven in this regard, and continuing to tweak things to find the right balance.--Eloquence (talk) 01:28, 24 May 2014 (UTC)
I favour quite beefy monetary prizes because—if promoted well, with press releases to the public, and within the movement of course—they're a powerful motivational tool. They directly feed into our priorities to increase coverage and quality of free information. It's easier to see the direct link with this than with a lot of other expenditures by affiliates, if I can be so bold to say that. Tony (talk) 09:38, 25 May 2014 (UTC)
Tony1, thanks for your opinion, but 1'000 reais, is quite a beefy here, the first price is 2.5x more than a beefy price. And this can bring us a ridiculous problem, this is the first time that Brazilians using Wiki name give money. How this is not gonna affect the next contests? And if you analysand the graphic you can see that after some quantity of money, this not affective factor any-more, and guest what, this one pass this line.
Eloquence Thanks for sharing this knowledge with us. It's ok spend money, but not like that, if they had spend all this in best way possible, they will not had a half of the quantity of other countries, that used less then 1/3 of the money in the event. And we are not considering, 201,032,714 of Brazilians comparing to 2,058,539 of Macedonians...
Math again, sorry, 3 times more money, plus 100 times more people, why we can't expect at least 10 times more?
If the excuse is "Brazil is to big to reach", they could had focus in Rio de Janeiro city (the city that the coordinator and others staffs live, this is not even close the biggest city in Brazil reacting 11 m, and in the conurbation hits 20 m 10x more than MK), that already have 3 times more people than Macedonia, and just 1,260 km² with ridiculous number of landscapes versus 25,713 km².
And, for both, the most important thing here is to notice that they not even tried asks the community about it, and find partners to cover the prize...
Rodrigo Tetsuo Argenton m 01:34, 31 May 2014 (UTC)

Status and health of Wikimedia Brazil community after the entry of WMFEdit

Hi, this is Ravi from Wikimedia India community. I am completely unaware of what's going on in Wikimedia Brazil community. So, I will refrain from commenting on the issue raised here. But, I would like to understand the status and health of Wikimedia Brazil community after the entry of WMF directly and later through a partnership with a local no-profit organization. For your info, India was the first country where WMF initiated this partnership model and based on which it claims to have improved the processin Brazil. However, the Wikimedia India community is getting more agitated against this partnership model for various reasons. Main reasons include volunteer demotivation, paid professionals crossing over volunteer domains, competition with local chapter, expensive programs with less effects etc., Please see the discussion over latest FDC funding here and FDC recommendation here for more details. I saw similar trends in the concerns raised in this page. I would like to understand why the Wikimedia Brazil chapter never took off (or was discontinued after a short term?) and how has the community - user group / chapter - local non-profit interactions changed the dynamics of the movement. Please educate the wider global community regarding your local happenings with links to program pages and discussions wherever appropriate. Thanks.--Ravi (talk) 07:49, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

Hi Ravi,
Well, this answer requires a text.
Fist of all Wikimedia Brasil do not exists any-more. It's dead, most of WMF intervention, and we knew that this would happen[1].
Just to you get: (I tried to catch most of the links, but as this have years of documentation, some of that I cant find, and with you see [X], I can't show to you, or because was in a closed list, or in a legal paper, or because it's lost in WMBR OTRS and I can't access any-more).

Wikimedia Brazil start in 2008, being doing activities, and had the WMF approval to do a NGO in Brazil[2], but we decided to pause the process, because of a lot issues. We evolute our way to do activities, and legal bases is not vital any-more, not even money, we used the Wiki model, open, no hierarchical, collaborative, no representatives,..., plus the "Mutirões model" including the civil society, making partnerships exchanging resources,... [3]
In 2010, after a lot of fights, because the name WMBR in someone mind, gives status, we had more problems and emerge another group that really wanted a hierarchical, bureaucrat chapter as the Europeans ones [4] (that will never work here properly). In addition to that WMF still not let us work as we wanted and was forcing was to became a legal structure.

In 2011 they announce that they would implemented a office in Brazil [1]. So both of the Brazilian groups (the one that do activities since 2008, and the other that just complain and want a legal office) seat together and decide to became a WMF chapter, and we start to see the best model to do that. We discuss about it, see the possibilities, and decided to create a minimum legal structured, just to support some activities as WLM, WLE, GLAM, that reacquires a legal structure to legally run in Brazil, as any contest here.

For legal propose, we had to had some names as director and etc, but inside this would not exist. We let this crystal clear for the AffCom [x], but some of the chairs are occupied for people that do not wanted to accepted a slice different model, model based in Wiki... But ok, we did all the things that AffCom requested, and as they said that the bylaw was ok, we did the same thing that others chapters did and we start the process to create a legal association here. In mean time WMF spend a lot of resources trying to create a legal structure here, even after we say that they could use ours, as the model of minimum and no positions allow they to appropriate that, and uses as they need (we also offered one of three directors position to WMF), they promptly denied the offer. And then Sue bring the narrowing focus, and they decided to do the Program via partnership, again we offer the WMBR as the office, and again they denied.

Well, we made a assembly [5], let all papers together, using our one money, and waited the AffCom approval to really open up the Association. And we waited, waited, for more then a year, and they just give us excuses, lies[6]... WMF close a partnership with Ação Educativa, putting ridiculous quantity of money in their hands, they start to use this bright money to do things from their heads, for example, participating of the Iberocoof that Brazilians volunteers was denning to go, because Iberocoop was not close of WMBR, this includes values, methodology, interests... [x] Or participation on Wikimania, in this events we had asked to not talk in person with AffCom, because we already had a transparent, and inclusive way to talk with they, one Wiki page here.

But they do not listen us, again, and start to spread in Brazil the AffCom/Iberocoop intentions, do not let WMBR became a chapter, and let it as a User Group, remember, in 2008-2011 we did a lot of activities [7], and they don't let us be ourself [8], and then we almost stopped the whole activities to do what they was forcing us to do, ok? Moving on. The idea to be a User Group was a totally idiotic, because this we already was since 2008, and abandoned the whole chapter process to be a thing that we already was, and giving us nothing in addition, was only interest for: AffCom, Iberocoop, WMF..., not for Brazilians.

We was in a process of being a chapter since 2011, again, one of the guys in front of process died[9], another get really sick, me and other one was tired of this process, for me was the second time of this crap. And at the end of 2013 AffCom, after more then a year of our assembly, said[10]: "We will restart the process" o.O, #@#%!@, what??? why? More "the Committee's belief that for the time being, a Wikimedia User Group would be appropriate as a first step" first step of 5 years old group ???? And more: "as we discussed with representatives of the Brazilian community at various meetings this year" what? Representatives? Several meetings?? WMBR do not had any meeting if AffCom, we denied one on-line in 2012 because we don't wanted to polarized the conversation in representatives and we said to they to not talk in personal ways[11], only uses: Wikimedia Brasil/AffCom, and they have meetings with us? The only meetings that they could had was with the Brazil Program staffs, because they was the only ones travelling... In Wikimania HK (2013), for example, they was 3 of 6 Brazillans at the event[12], 2 of them are not connected with the Chapters things, and the others was one of two that voted against the elected director in the Assembly...[x]

Alias, this last one started the Wikimedia User Group with, guess, staffs of the Brazil Program.

As WMBR do not had any, any report from AffCom saying why they would restart the process, as you can see I asked that, and the guy of the WUG let that massage in the end, and another WUG one uses his stewards tools to not let me remove that massage coming from a guy outside the WMBR group. [13]

The others WMBR volunteers did not have any more gas to keep going, I had to put one end in this, but not even this was given to us. You, volunteers of Wikimedia Movement, removed sysop tools of volunteers of WMBR[14] and block who they want [15]; took the WMBR OTRS [x] and let in the hands of this WUG, this OTRS had tons of documents (IDs, bank accounts, ...) of the WMBR volunteers, yeah, people that do not like us, with our personal data; partnership contacts they can use WMBR name to contact this people, and another things in this OTRS; our Wiki, with all the activities that we did, and discussions, in their hands too[16].

WMBR had a the vision that the whole Wikimedia Movement is important, and we can change a lot things trough education involving the civil society, and we not wanted just a free encyclopaedia, we battled to create a free individuals trough free knowledge and free construction, to let them create a free society. That's the only way to let the sum of the knowledge to all. So we can't had representatives, chairs; to involve the civil society, rent places, pay for presences, pay for prices, is not a option, if you support the idea, you need be real involved, be part of the activity, open your doors, and let us enter. To be free, we need let people know how we do the things and include their in our decisions, so all of ours discussions, plans, meetings, etc... was open, to read, to participate, to be appropriate. None of this remains in the actual group.

Another crazy talking about the first part of this paragraph, have en subtitle.
So now you can measure the importance of the Brazil Program, how the dynamics changed, see why the chapter do not took off, of course that I remove a lot of things, as meetings to attack volunteers not present there, the hires without the agreement of the community and ignored advice to not hire, the unsuccessful programmes that Brazilians advised about it, the whole funds spent...
I'm totally exhausted, sorry, but I will not review the text, because this is too much painful for me, I dedicated so many for some people destroy, for a status and give more focus in Wikipedia... I lost one friend, and five years of my life.
Now that I open that, I will answer any questions that you may have. It was not the propose of this RFQ, but I can answer. Rodrigo Tetsuo Argenton m 04:01, 28 May 2014 (UTC)
Although i don't think this is too much money, i agree with Rodrigo that it should be better used. The report above to Ravi shows the feeling of us while seeing such things. Those initiatives are been easily funded when coming from the partner, while proposals coming from the community itself, just like the chapter proposal, are ignored. Photo contests are in our planning since 2011 (maybe before). This require formal partnerships, management of funds and trademark issues, so this is exactly the kind of thing the Brazilian movement agreed that a chapter could help the community better organize. But the chapter was conditioned to a 2-(more)-years of experience as a user group and now the partner is running a photo contest, with no knowledge-transferring to the local movement, no increase in community's skills to organize such events. It's not even really built by a group, and not even volunteering-based, but essentially a 1 single person's work instead (with some minor contributions from others here and there). This was a job and someone has been paid for it. For a better comparison between Brazilian and Macedonian contests, i think in this page is missing the salary paid to Brazilian organizer, that i think Rodrigo should have added. I don't see any difference between running a contest this way or simply paying one of the thousands of companies that are paid to organize such things. It's not a "wikicontest", it's a professional one. Considering that, i can't agree with Tony about motivation and with Eloquence about awesomeness. Actually, i hardly can say it fits our mission. If we apply for a grant about paying a Brazilian company to run a photo contest here and then release the photos in Commons, would it be enough for funding? 'Cause this is exactly what's happening here. CasteloBrancomsg 22:50, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

Hi Rodrigo Tetsuo Argenton and CasteloBranco, thanks for throwing more light on this issue. I will also try to get comments from more members of the community and other stakeholders to have a holistic picture. --Ravi (talk) 07:09, 8 June 2014 (UTC)


Sources or pages about itEdit

Proposing to close discussionEdit

This discussion has been open for a number of months, with no new additions of text. There was discussion at Wikimania2014 about the general issues, and it would seem that this RFC can now be closed. Any objections? The preceding unsigned comment was added by Billinghurst (talk • contribs) 23:29, 30. Sep. 2014‎ (UTC)

  Oppose Formal reasons: This suggested statement was unsigned. For incident-related reasons: Something that I don't yet fully understand escalated at Wikimedia Commons. For content-related issues: Neither it is clearly outlined where the problem is nor possible solutions. In case it is closed both should be summarized.
Unanswered questions:
  1. Funding source.
    1. Was it really WMF-money spent.
    2. Who approved it and where.
    3. And through which programme.
  2. Was the community be allowed to give comments after the fund was requested and before it was disbursed?
  3. How was the fund exactly spend.
    1. Were there conflicts of interests.
    2. Were the dimensions appropriate (in numbers, without any rating).
Questions and things we do not need to re-iterate on: Insults and allegations. Comparisons with unrelated stuff. Who is blocked where. We want to discuss a matter, not a person. -- Rillke (talk) 01:23, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

R.T.Argenton, thanks for the explicative text: You sound frustrated; once being highly motivated; you criticize that the Foundation in San Francisco requires chapters to be organized somehow (a chair and some peoples with fixed roles, maybe paid) and WMBR wasn't inclined to create such a structure requested, did I get things right? Therefore, a "user group" status has been proposed. But what I wonder about is whether you actually need any status -- there are a lot of programmes for individuals or small user groups for single projects. Can't you have, let's say weekly meetings, call yourself "Wikimedia Brazil Volunteer Group" (or similar; I guess the Foundation will hardly sue you except you are doing something dirty), have fun and achieve a lot without any status? In any case, I suggest you document your activities in favour of the movement somewhere online, for example in an awesome blog. Put everything related to Wikimedia in this blog: Your achievements, membership development, things going on in the Foundation or your competitors that you would like to criticize. If you think you can do it better, just prove it by running your group successfully. -- Rillke (talk) 01:23, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

For some reason the system do not warning me about the change, and that you tag me Rillke, I don't need to prove anything... :)
1.1.And about the money, yep, WMF money, they spend awaaaay more than what I'm exemplify here, 500 000 USD (five hundred thousand American dolars, half of million dolars) was spend for no result, actually one achievement, WMBR is not a question to the international community any-more, cause it died hard, no more people saying that things are wrong (and showing how to solve, or at least alternatives), doing activities in Brazil without using money...
1.2."Apparently" after the approval of 5 105 USD they had carte blanche to use as they want, and after that they simply pass to a "lets check if that was a good investment". "Apparently" are under quotation marks cause I heard this from they, and from a WMF staff...
1.3.The Brazil Program or Programa Catalisador do Brasil, (funny already over, and stills a draft).
2.No! The community was invited to some meetings, and to give opinions here in some occasions, but never in money issues, and hardly ever the heard the community, actually every time that they start a discussion they start to give excuses or defend theirs jobs, instead rethink, and sometimes they simply not answer (something they learn from the WP-pt community).
3.After this thing here I need to handle to another situation that make this scenario even worst!
Enter here: [10] see "support" at the button, you will see WMF logo, until now we don't know how much money was spend to put the WMF name there, I (ans some volunteers that works in events) around 12 thousand USD. And even so, the only one that receive tickets to go the event was the Rodrigo Padula, the WMF grant partner or other fake name to a staff that make s... no one volunteer of the community receive invitation, as far I know (any public place at least, and no one that I talked to knows some one invited). And he impose to the Commons community to put this event in the main page in pt, one sysop that always fight against WMBR (and was a judge in the WLE together with her boyfriend/husband) put there and protect the page (in bonus I owned a block, cause I said that sysop had a boyfriend... ¬¬). I don't know if this was part of the deal... and he uses his name to explain the event, being in highlight in some news, and in event pages... and read this [11] the whole text is turn to him, not to the community, some volunteer offered help and the answer was "stay out of this!". A event like that could be a easy way to a self promotion, as proved in this one...
I'm also waiting for answer too...
About the other part, I'm not interested in the Wikimedia Movement any-more, all this thing about Brazil, no one checking this, a lot of retaliation to me stop question about issues, and the Wikivoyage in pt that I raise alone (i.e. [12]) was the last drop for me, I'm sad to see no free volunteers becoming strong every day here instead the ones with more "wiki values"... peaceRodrigo Tetsuo Argenton m 16:38, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
  • This is an interesting story. I am seeing this for the first time today. I think other chapters have similar stories and wish that stories like this could be collected in one place someday. This is a recurring problem in different places. Blue Rasberry (talk) 16:38, 11 March 2016 (UTC)