Meta:Requests for deletion

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Special:PrefixIndex/Translations:Access_to_nonpublic_personal_data_policy-summary edit

The page "Access to nonpublic personal data policy-summary/" has moved to the Foundation website, and we have all these unattached translations that people still are editing, which is valueless. Probably time for a cleanout, unless someone can think of a reason not to do so.  — billinghurst sDrewth 04:22, 23 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

See list

Research:Research_Community_Vision_and_Strategy edit

This page is outdated and is no longer relevant. We are moving all content which is under the WMF Research Team to MediaWiki (WMF Research) and leaving anything that is community-led here on Meta. --KGordon (WMF) (talk) 14:05, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Joint Statement on Palestine edit

Discussion open until at least 18 April 2024 (UTC)
Beyond the fact that it is not the place of Wikimedians to take sides in armed conflicts, this open letter identifies with the Palestinian cause regarding matters within Israel. This partisanship is devisive slacktivism and should not be present within Wikimedia's servers. Chris Troutman (talk) 18:02, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Keep There have been several open letters written by members of the Wikimedia Movement, pertaining to the Movement, hosted on Meta in the past. This statement does talk about specific actions that members of our Movement would like to see from the Foundation and is not trying to request or mandate things of organisations outside the Movement (for example, it is not asking any actions of any government or NGO). If the Foundation feels this matter is ultra vires for Meta, then they can take Office actions to remove the page and they can contact the editors there to discuss it further. I don't think this is a matter that needs to be addressed by the community on RfD — OwenBlacker (Talk; he/him) 18:13, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  Keep It's important to have space for open letters from members within the Wikimedia Movement. --Kiraface (talk) 18:21, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  Keep Deleting such a document goes against the democratic spirit of the Wikimedia community. Free knowledge is an agenda in the fight for democracy and it is even expected that organizations and movements with a social impact like ours take a stand on global issues like these. XenoF (talk) 19:47, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  Keep A request for deletion of a statement of this kind shouldn't take place in a democratic movement. If you disagree you can discuss the topic, but to just plainly ask that these words do not exist on our servers is against the spirit and values of this movement.Señoritaleona (talk) 20:14, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  Keep This open letter not only makes demands of our community and the Foundation, it serves as an opportunity for Wikimedians with shared values to connect and further strategize; it's unifying rather than divisive and is more aligned with the positive connotations of "slacktivism" than it is with the negative ones. Nyeboah (talk) 21:21, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  Keep the Wikimedia Foundation and Wikipedia in general has taken a position on the Russo-Ukrainian war in favor of Ukraine countless times. So, Wikimedians can take sides in armed conflicts. D.S. Lioness (talk) 01:13, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  Keep Wikimedia has always shown direct support for Ukraine and Israel and recently had issues regarding how to brand what Israel was doing to palestinian people on enwiki and commons which actually disgusted me (refusal to call the Al-Rashid massacre just that but instead pushing for it to be called an "incident" was downright insulting to over 118+ lives lost that day). We are no longer a neutral site cause even today i saw people from Israel wiki (hebrew wiki) push their propaganda on commons and enwiki, if we can no longer be neutral, atleast we should act like we are.--Stemoc 03:44, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Definitely   Keep. It is what Wikipedia is for after all, an open source of unbiased information. -Filipinayzd (talk) 10:32, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  Keep one has the right not to agree with this statement (and personally, I don't fully agree with some of its sentences) but I see no reason to delete this statement. Cheers, VIGNERON * discut. 16:16, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  Remove While I agree with the content, Wikipedia should not engage in political advocacy, it undermines Wikipedia's neutrality. Levivich (talk) 16:58, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  Remove I don't want Wikimedia to become another forum or social network. Wikimedia should not become a a battleground or a forum to promote our own political or religious ideas, or any kind of advocacy or propaganda of any kind that does not strictly relate to our objectives. I sympathize with many causes, but I don't express my ideas on Wikimedia pages; rather, I use social media or spaces for social or political activism that are meant for that purpose. The goal of Wikimedia is to advocate for free knowledge, to collect and develop educational content under free licenses or public domain, and to effectively disseminate it globally, not to express our opinions on any conflict. We should only express opinions when our projects are at stake, for example, when Wikipedia is censored in some regions.--Jalu (talk) 17:20, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  Remove Since when has Wikipedia politalized? Lilijuros (talk) 18:27, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
comment I am not at liberty to vote on this RFD, but I have updated my candidate page here -- Sleyece (talk) 18:36, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  Remove This statement completely violates Wikimedia Foundation charter and NPOV policy. Moreover, it is one-sided, completely ignoring Hamas' massacre of October 7th 2023 and the kidnapping of innocent people to Gaza, and depicts a distorted version of reality. MathKnight (talk) 18:41, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
History does not begin on October 7th. If you have read your Torah, you should know that God has created the world and human civilization a long, long time ago. Interaccoonale (talk) 16:22, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Speedy delete. Whatever the precedents elsewhere, Wikipedia should not be pulled left or right, pro or contra. I find this kind of thing - an attempt to identify an encyclopedia with a political statement - deeply disturbing, indeed somewhat shocking. And I state that even more firmly as an editor closely associated with working in the I/P area, basically curating Palestinian perspectives. Our remit here is to master the history and scholarship, and ensure that articles are written NPOV to that end. Political statements are facile: actually doing something to achieve informative coverage on a conflict is hard work. That is where editors must commit themselves, not to flagwaving. Horrible. I'm not neutral, but wikipedia is not about righting great wrongs (as opposed to giving detailed information about the history enabling readers to form their own opinions regarding the merits or otherwise of those perceived wrongs and the preceived 'justice' of those who claim that they are not wrongs, for example)(User:Nishidani) — The preceding unsigned comment was added by Nishidani (talk) 19:05, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  Keep Please re-read the quote contained in the statement: "If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor". When 30,000+ innocent people are killed, neutrality becomes complicity. Silence becomes harm. Speaking up becomes a duty. This statement will not be censored. Mushroom (talk) 19:04, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
About one-third to half of those 30,000 Palestinians killed were members of Hamas, Palestinian Islamic Jihad and other militia/terror-groups and NOT innocent civilians. This is why the statement is factually false and distorted. MathKnight (talk) 19:41, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If you want to believe that it's moral and justified to indiscriminately bomb and murder innocent civilians because (supposedly) some bad people are hiding among them, feel free to do so. I am equally free to express my disagreement. Mushroom (talk) 20:45, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You can't preach about morality when you deny and refuse to condemn Hamas atrocities. On October 7th Hamas massacred 1000 innocent people, raped women, burned babies in front of their mothers, and kidnapped civilians into the Gaza Strip. This one-sided statement fails to condemn it and implicitly supports Hamas ' atrocities. This one-sided distorted and factually false statement should be speedily deleted. Wikimedia Foundation should not endorse hatred. MathKnight (talk) 15:20, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It does not, in any way, endorse Hamas. But I guess everyone in Gaza’s a terrorist in Israel’s eyes. Dronebogus (talk) 11:11, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Even if we believe this ‘math’ from MathKnight, that still means that a qualified majority (more than two thirds) of the deaths were civilians. I don’t see how the presence of an alleged ‘one third’ justifies the mass killings of the two thirds. stjn[ru] 13:37, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If Wikipedia existed during WWII, would it have stayed silent when the Holocaust was being perpetrated?! Being an encyclopedia does not mean staying neutral when atrocities are being committed.   Keep! عمرو بن كلثوم (talk) 19:23, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If Wikipedia existed during WWII, this statement is the equivalent of denouncing The Allies for bombing Germany while refusing to denounce Nazi Germany. MathKnight (talk) 15:20, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No, it’d be like saying “we condemn the US government’s violent policies against Indians” in the 19th century, and then US settlers said “but why don’t you condemn the massacres of Americans by the Indians?” The answer is of course that Native Americans did commit what would be considered war crimes by modern standards, but in retrospective analysis has since put that in a framework of complete genocide by the United States. Dronebogus (talk) 11:06, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  Keep there is no neutrality when it comes to human values. I don't think this will be brought up against the situation in Ukraine, or older conflicts in Europe. Besides this doesn't apply to what is considered Not acceptable--باسم (talk) 19:20, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  Keep I don't know how the page violates wikimedia policies. I trust no one can prove that. I've said before in a discussion: "the solidarity with human rights in safe life and other rights mentioned in UDHR isn't a violation of the neutral point of view" and I still hold this conviction. Ahmed Naji Talk 19:45, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  Remove -- calling the crisis "Israel-created" as opposed to "Hamas-created" is disinformation; it's telling that not a single word could be spared to condemn the 10/7 attack by Hamas that threatened the lives of Israeli Wikimedians; nor is there any mention of the hostages still being held. Everyone involved with the publication of this should be ashamed of themselves. SWATJester Son of the Defender 20:04, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
A more appropriate form will be Hamas-created Israel-intensified, so I see the current iteration as purely political statement that tries to shift blame on one party - i.e. the intention seems not to address the situation but to assign blame on the initial victim.
But yeah this is still technically in scope, so it should be kept. 1233 T / C 03:05, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
One need not qualify a statement against genocide with condemnations of the perpetrator's adversaries. AP295 (talk) 11:46, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  Keep If you disagree with this you are welcome to not sign it, or start your own competing open letter. Meta-Wiki is not censored. * Pppery * it has begun 20:06, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  Keep Since we are a global movement with a core principle based on community, free knowledge, participation and the recognition the value of all the individuals in the world, I think the correct answer is peace. Although not everyone is on the same page, the majority of people in the movement are against the occupation, the massacre and the destruction of a culture (including universities, temples and all kinds of culture heritage). --Luisalvaz (talk) 20:35, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  Keep I can't understand why some insist on deleting this statemen.. Do they want to wait for killing more innocent Palestinians while the world turns a blind eye? Freedom's Falcon (talk) 20:55, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  Keep This page falls within the scope of Meta Wiki. The rationale behind the deletion nomination is that the page does not adhere to the principle of Neutral point of view. As outlined in Meta:What Meta is not, '"Meta is not written from a neutral point of view. It concerns the entire Wikimedia community, and often contains the opinions of specific users,'" thereby invalidating the sole basis for the proposed deletion. Additionally, Meta:What Meta is not states, "Meta is not an encyclopedia, and does not collect encyclopedic information." Thus, referencing Wikipedia and its NPOV policy in the deletion discussion of a page on Meta Wiki is not relevant. Moreover, I observe a potential case of canvassing; although I do not understand the language, Google Translate outputs led me to this suspicion. -- BIDROHI Hello.. 21:00, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  Keep The page does not pretend to be an encyclopedia article but presents itself as the position of a group of Wikimedia organisations and Wikimedians. Over the history of the Wikimedia movement, the movement as a whole or groups within it have taken political positions; this is compatible with neutrality of project content and in some cases it is demanded by our cause of free and open knowledge. This wiki is not a content project and is a suitable venue for users to express opinions about the effect of events such as wars on our mission. MartinPoulter (talk) 21:26, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  Remove Wikipedia should not engage in political advocacy, it undermines Wikipedia's neutrality. שמיה רבה (talk) 22:21, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is meta.wikimedia; it's not Wikipedia -- Sleyece (talk) 11:40, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  Keep Per OwenBlacker, and we are a democratic community, and it's important to have space for open letters.--Faisal talk 01:26, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  Remove Although I agree with much of the sentiment in the letter, and can respect the wishes of components of the Wikimedia empire to express opinions on political or social issues, it is not the purpose of Wikimedia as a whole. Zero0000 (talk) 02:34, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
To be clear, you voted remove while making an argument for keep. -- Sleyece (talk) 11:37, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  Remove Even when most of us can agree with the fact that what's happening in Gaza is horrifying, speaking about it in terms of "oppressor/oppressed" is an oversimplification of the issue and lacks the rigor Wikipedia should have. — The preceding unsigned comment was added by Foránea (talk) 04:33, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is not Wikipedia, and thousands of people massacred is not an oversimplification. Luisalvaz (talk) 17:46, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Israel is running an apartheid state and is now committing genocide. This is "oppressor/oppressed", plain and simple. Dronebogus (talk) 11:17, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  Keep. This concerns Wikimedia communities and editors, some of whom have already been killed by this siege. Wikimedia has a responsibility to at least ensure the safety of volunteers. Why would anyone oppose this? -—M@sssly 04:44, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  Keep, wikipedia must stand for against any kind of injustice always. Bengali editor (talk) 06:05, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is wikimedia, not wikipedia. -- Sleyece (talk) 11:41, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  Keep Many objections to the page's existence seem to think we're on Wikipedia right now. Not to mention that the desire to delete the page on the grounds of it being unnecessarily political is as inherently political as its creation. Battleofalma (talk) 10:15, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  Keep justice! Why would anyone oppose this? 🌴Zulf talk 11:31, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  Keep there is no hard rule that says Wikimedians cannot publish political statements. English Wikipedia doesn’t rule Wikimedia; in fact it’s closer to the opposite. I don’t like to wade too much into the political meta-argument over this deletion but this coming on the heels of an unsubtle attempt to prevent ArWiki from condemning the war in Gaza sure seems like an attempt to enforce the West’s anti-Palestinian taboo on Wikimedia. Should Wikimedia not allow advocacy? Maybe, maybe not. But as long as there’s a lopsided focus on censoring pro-Palestinian advocacy I’ll vote against every one of these campaigns. Dronebogus (talk) 12:07, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  Remove Extremely one-sided statement which completely ignores atrocities which has been done by the other side and, above all, violates any NPOV policy that was determined by the foundation. TheStriker (talk) 14:34, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
are there any special rules? 🌴Zulf talk 15:39, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This statement is not on behalf of the foundation, but the community (which is independent). There are not NPOV policies that limits our freedom of speech as volunteers and affiliates. Luisalvaz (talk) 17:43, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  Keep petrohs (gracias) 14:43, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
  Remove Partisan and unobjective. SigTif (talk) 18:07, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  Keep and move to Joint statement by Wikimedia organizations and individuals regarding the ongoing situation in Palestine, 7 April 2024. It is about the Wikimedia project, after all, but the page title is somewhat misleading. --魔琴 (talk) 19:05, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That sounds fine Dronebogus (talk) 11:23, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  Support the page title should be changed. I also support keeping the page, of course. Le Loy (talk) 22:56, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  Keep أمين (talk) 21:17, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  Keep Celinea33 (talk) 22:02, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  Keep Absolutely bogus to believe this page is "one-sided". There is nothing "one-sided" about advocating for an ethnic group currently being starved to death and unjustly massacred. Lastly, there is no mention or support for Hamas anywhere on the page. This isn't a case of politics, this is a case of humanity. —Atcovi (Talk - Contribs) 22:26, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed it's a matter of humanity and I agree with your points, but it is also a matter of politics. There's no reason one should avoid political discourse in the first place. Correct me if I'm wrong, but WP:NPOV only states that wikipedia articles must be objective and fair. Do not confuse objectivity with political or moral quietism/apathy. If anything, healthy political discourse might have prevented this sad state of affairs. AP295 (talk) 09:49, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your reply, AP295. On the topic of politics, I would like to point (to the judging admin) that if we have pages related to political issues, such as Black Lives Matter (which failed an RFD, thankfully), we surely can keep this page as well. One could also argue, based on the Meta:Inclusion policy, that the page in question falls under "documentation and discussion concerning the Wikimedia Foundation and its projects". A Wikimedia member from Gaza even commented on the talk page of the joint statement, detailing their struggles as a Wikimedian living under the brutal conditions Israel has imposed. A lot of the opposing comments seem to be jarred at "Wikimedia not being political", failing to consider other political pages on Meta (as mentioned above, and including 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine). A lot of them are raising clearly political points, completely ignoring the very real humanitarian crisis going on in Gaza. I wanted to dwell more on my comment rather than just letting it be almost entirely subjective, and I was glad to have found some time to relate to Meta's policies. —Atcovi (Talk - Contribs) 13:44, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The response to the invasion of Ukraine seems very constructive! I'm not opposed to taking stances or helping innocent people or taking action in general, so long as it's constructive and positive and helpful. Kim Bruning (talk) 14:21, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
What is the difference between Ukraine and Palestine besides the fact that it’s politically correct to support the former? Dronebogus (talk) 14:31, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  Keep Meta is not written from a neutral point of view. It is not an encyclopedia or other educational resource, and hence, has no need for NPOV. Wikimedians should be free to express their opinions on Meta, unless those opinions are pure vandalism or spam. Justarandomamerican (talk) 22:38, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  Remove It is a political message that has nothing to do with the goals of the Wikimedia Foundation. Leaving the message makes Wikimedia a political entity. דוד שי (talk) 23:45, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  Remove Estyxxxx (talk) 23:59, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  Remove This is not twitter.
Ex ex (talk) 00:32, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  RemoveIt has nothing to do with Wikimedia Foundation. שמש מרפא (talk) 00:58, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  Remove This statement has been replaced by Talk:Joint_Statement_on_Palestine#What_WMF_should_do? which is being deseminated on the mailing list and asking people to come here and sign. 02:08, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  Keep Mystrixo (talk) 04:21, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  Remove Utterly one-sided in favor of the aggressor, failing to acknowledge their responsibility for executing the deadliest single-day attack in the history of this conflict.
While the diversity of perspectives in Wikimedia is valued, the inclusion of such a statement could risk politicizing this platform and alienating individuals who hold differing viewpoints. Wikimedia's primary focus should remain on providing neutral and reliable information, and endorsing one side of a complex geopolitical issue may compromise its reputation for impartiality. YedidyaPopper (talk) 05:10, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Please stop distorting facts. The aggressor is your country. Interaccoonale (talk) 16:36, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I’ve said it before and will say it again: arguing with an Israeli about Palestine is like arguing with a Turkish person about the Armenian Genocide. Dronebogus (talk) 01:00, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  Remove העיתונאי המנטר (talk) 08:26, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  Remove דגן דיגן (talk) 10:03, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  Remove It is a political message that has nothing to do with the goals of the Wikimedia Foundation. Wikimedia is not Twitter. בן עדריאל (talk) 10:05, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  Remove It is a political message which should not be mentioned in Wikimedia. ykantor 12:47, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  Keep Editors and communities on Wikimedia are affected by this, as some have already perished as a result of the siege. At the very least, it is the duty of Wikipedia to protect its volunteers. Why would someone be against this?. SIR SUCCESS (NAA JAHINFO) (talk) 13:50, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  Keep دعما لمن لا علاقة له بالحرب. أبو هشام (talk) 14:27, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  Keep - MartinPoulter sums up my thoughts well. There is no evidence the user groups are speaking on behalf of Wikimedia. However, I think the title could be adjusted to make this clear. Leaderboard (talk) 14:31, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  Remove אייל (talk) 14:40, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  Remove - clearly political and subjective. I would expect it to call on Hamas to release the kidnapped and surrender, not de-facto blame Israel, but that's my political opinion and it too should not appear in a joint statement. DGtal (talk) 07:47, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  Remove Not our scope. --Krd 08:02, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  •   Comment an outsize number of “delete” voters are clearly Israeli, either explicitly or implicitly (no other country speaks Hebrew). Many of those same users have barely or never used Meta before. It’s entirely possible there’s nationalistically-motivated canvassing going on here. Dronebogus (talk) 10:02, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    There is clearly canvassing going on on both sides here (or at least those who have been shown to the page see the deletion discussion link at the top). Comments from Meta-Wiki regulars, and those commenting as to how the page fits or does not fit in the Meta:Inclusion policy will be more heavily weighted than the others. – Ajraddatz (talk) 15:47, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    ...Except on one side, there is an overt call to members of the Hebrew Wikipedia from someone who had never edited on that Wikipedia to urgently come and comment on this RfD. The eyesore of a banner on top (which won't be missed when it's gone) is an invitation to all, and can hardly be equated with canvassing. I agree that "on both sides" there are people who are for/against the statement itself, which is not what this RfD is about, and I trust the closing admin will be able to judge which of the arguments have merit and which are mere "voting" on the statement. In fact if this were a popular vote, I would argue that all the individuals who've signed the statement should count towards "keep". In any case, it would set a dangerous precedent if a page on Meta is deleted because someone doesn't like or agree with its content. Fjmustak (talk) 18:26, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I would suggest focusing on the merits of arguments, not on who made them. This is a cross-Wiki policy (Enwiki users probably are familiar with it as en:WP:AVOIDYOU), although apparently it has not found its way into Meta pages. Deinocheirus (talk) 16:35, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    In fact, on this very page some users are already engaging in personal attacks on others. And these attacks are not coming from people who have supposedly been called here to vote "remove". --Deinocheirus (talk) 17:33, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  Keep It doesn't violate wikimedia policies.--Dr-Taher (talk) 20:13, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  Keep I don't find a reason on how the page does not fit under our scope. Its name does appear problematic as noted by 魔琴 and a rename to a suitable new title should work, for instance, Collective Letter from Wikimedia movement groups and individuals about ongoing situation in Palestine concerning Palestinian Wikimedia community, date perhaps?. Neutral point of view is not an issue here because Meta is not an encyclopedia nor is this an encyclopedic article. It hasn't been portrayed as a statement by anyone else not signing it. If someone doesn't agree, a simple solution would be not to sign it. Getting it deleting for mere disagreement is not a policy-centered idea. None of the delete voters have so far provided an argument on how this page fails the scope and inclusion policy of Meta-Wiki. I'd be glad to change my vote if there comes a policy-centered argument about how exacly the page fails and why explictly it should be deleted. I mean not just: "I don't like it", "Out of scope", "fails this policy". Exactly how and why? Best regards, ─ Aafī (talk) 21:00, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  Remove per above. Neriah - 💬 - 22:30, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  Keep It's for a good cause. Some parts are rather non-specific and should probably be made clearer, but I get the gist of it. As others have pointed out, NPOV only applies to wikipedia articles. To say that everyone must remain apolitical at all times on any wikimedia site is nonsense, and would essentially amount to political censorship. The word "neutral" is being applied as euphemism to conflate objectivity and political quietism. AP295 (talk) 09:19, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
What is the rationale to say that this is for a good cause?
Many people here don't agree that this is for a good cause. BilboBeggins (talk) 13:25, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
So Israel murdering civilians is a good cause? Dronebogus (talk) 13:29, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  Keep It doesn't violate wikimedia policies. Batoul84 (talk) 10:02, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  Keep. A statement of solidarity with peaceful civilians, including Wikipedians who have died in the conflict, does not violate any Meta rules or Wikimedia-wide policies. stjn[ru] 13:29, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  Remove There is essay WP:Nothere which sums up why this should not be here and should be removed. BilboBeggins (talk) 17:58, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Essays aren't policy. AP295 (talk) 18:34, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  Remove ארז האורז (talk) 07:28, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  Keep, it is clearly ok to make a humanitarian statement, no reason to censor it. Wikisaurus (talk) 08:06, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  Remove per בן עדריאל. --Всезнайка (talk) 10:57, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  Remove. Wikimedia projects shouldn't be exploited for spreading propaganda or advancing the agendas of terrorist organisations. The Statement bears a striking resemblance to a PR ploy by Hamas: they initiated the conflict with heinous acts like murders, kidnappings, and even rapes ("rapesistance"?), yet shamelessly shift blame onto Israel. They callously employ innocent children as shields, hiding behind them whilst evading accountability. Additionally, they manipulate casualty numbers to fit their narrative. As Mosab Hassan Yousef, son of Sheikh Hassan Yousef, rightly said, "You only speak on the authority of Hamas propaganda, because if you were a decent human being, you can say that the thousands that were killed on October 7 that it was a crime against humanity, it was a genocide!" We cannot turn a blind eye to the severe human rights abuses and war crimes committed by Hamas, Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades, Islamic Jihad, al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades, and other Palestinian terrorist groups. Let's ensure that the Wikimedia Movement steadfastly upholds neutrality, accuracy, and champions peace, truth, and justice. Free Palestine (from Hamas)! Aisha8787 (talk) 11:57, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Israel and its proxies can claim genocide all they want but that means nothing when they’re routinely talking of ethnically cleansing Palestinians out of “their” territory. Dronebogus (talk) 13:23, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  Remove I don't want to be mean, but this seems to be the wrong place for this particular approach. 1. Explicitly rejects Foundation issues: ("If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor."); 2. attacks/lays blame at feet of one party, ("ongoing Israel-created humanitarian crisis") thus arguably falling afoul of Inclusion policy on no dedicated attack pages; 3. Obviously DOES advocate, which would be ok, but it doesn't fit in with other essays here, since it's not really advocating for just actions actionable by wikimedia (eg. ("demand an immediate and lasting ceasefire"); . 4. It's WP:NOTHERE to build an Encyclopedia, Dictionary, Multimedia Repository, etc; 5. It's divisive to/for/between the communities in the current form. 6. Overall very little seems actionable by the foundation or the diverse wikimedia communities at this time. | Basically this is the wrong place for this sort of action. / Alternately -with editing- possibly something actionable and useful for all *could* be done(?), but the current format doesn't seem conducive to editing as such. It's a fixed signed statement, so if we edit it, we effectively change what the people signed. --Kim Bruning (talk) 12:42, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Israel did create this humanitarian crisis. What tactical advantage did they possibly gain over Hamas by indiscriminately destroying homes or creating an artificial famine? Dronebogus (talk) 13:21, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
My primary worry here is that the way this is being approached right this moment will lead to acrimonious political debate, rather than constructive wiki activity. --Kim Bruning (talk) 17:03, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It’s too late for that; it’s already become an acrimonious political debate. It’s just that one side is just “what about October 7” “what about Hamas” “what about Nazis” “too political” “not neutral”; none of these arguments apply to what the open letter is saying— there’s a humanitarian crisis, created by Israel, with no attempts at mitigation by Israel (in fact quite the opposite) and the authors and signatories support the rights of the millions of innocent Palestinians suffering because of it. Dronebogus (talk) 18:20, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The IDF tirelessly facilitates humanitarian aid to reach civilians in Gaza, providing food, water, shelter supplies, and medical equipment. Despite these efforts, Hamas members forcibly seize aid from civilians, exacerbating the situation. It's clear who truly creates problems. Aisha8787 (talk) 18:37, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That’s a good one. Dronebogus (talk) 00:55, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  Remove, Wikimedia should not take sides in such a blatant matter. Seems like the authors of the discussed page are not at all worried about Wikimedians in Israel and its cultural heritage, only those in Gaza, despite the fact that Israeli cities, its population and citizens abroad are constantly subjected to violent attacks, of which October 7 and the recent Iranian missile/drone barrage are only two most glaring examples. --Deinocheirus (talk) 12:55, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Israel and its heritage are under zero threat of destruction as long as the US keeps supplying them massive quantities of munitions. As for Wikimedians in Israel they’re all here complaining about this essay. Dronebogus (talk) 13:28, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is simply not true. There were attacks at Israeli cultural institutions, there were attacks at the cultural events, including on October 7, and NO amount of munitions can guarantee that every single Iranian rocket is intercepted and doesn't ruin an ancient synagogue, museum or theatre. Not to mention that there probably were at least some Wikimedians among the victims of October 7 and other attacks, we just don't know them given the anonymity of most Wikipedia accounts. 2605:B100:D4E:C96:0:9:633F:8D01 14:19, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Now this is about Iran? Didn’t Israel start that without provocation? Maybe the best way to protect your country is not to be a warmongering apartheid state. Dronebogus (talk) 14:29, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Didn't Hamas start the current humanitarian crisis with provocation? I repeat (for the last time since my words seem to fall on deaf ears): as long as this "essay" addresses only one side's safety and cultural heritage, it is not in compliance with the Wikimedia Foundation's policy. Deinocheirus (talk) 14:31, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That was me above. I also would add that Israeli Wikimedians are quite right complaining about this essay because it doesn't address their safety and their culture. It also doesn't address the history of disregard for previous ceasefires by the Palestinian militant groups. So, it essentially demands Israel and only Israel to stop hostilities while the other side will be free to continue attacking Israel (including its Wikimedians and its cultural institutions). Deinocheirus (talk) 14:29, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Again: History does not begin on October 7th.
The security of Israeli Wikipedians depends on the Israeli government. If the Israeli government could stops invading and occupying Palestine, stops massacring Palestinians, stops blockading Gaza, stops apartheid and new settlements, and allows all Palestinians who originally lived in the current Israeli "territory" but were expelled in the Nakba to return to their own home, Israeli Wikipedians will be very safe. Interaccoonale (talk) 17:13, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
... Or, rather, very dead. I know Palestine's history, thank you. --Deinocheirus (talk) 17:33, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  Remove I'd like to see somebody calling to stop "humanitarian crisis" in 1945 in Berlin. Vcohen (talk) 12:56, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Please stop your inappropriate analogies. It's not Palestine should be compared with Nazi Germany, but Israel.
If the killing of hundreds of Israeli civilians by Palestinians after 70 years of aggression, occupation and massacre is terrorism, then the killing of German and Japanese civilians by the Allies is also terrorism. Obviously this doesn't make any sense.
To be honest, I think both are wrong, killing of civilians is never legitimate, and possibly suspected of war crimes (but apparently the latter one has not yet been judged even after 80 years). But "wrong" does not equal to "terrorism," nor does "war crime". And the violation of international humanitarian law by the invaded country can never erase the war crimes of the aggressor. Interaccoonale (talk) 16:50, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
They had a brilliant opportunity to establish their own state and develop their own economy, just like Israel did. Instead, they decided to fight and complain. And the more they lose in their fighting, the more they complain. They should either stop fighting or accept the results. Vcohen (talk) 08:29, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  Keep Freedom of information must be free. --Д. Карнаж (talk) 13:12, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don’t see how that applies to this situation. Dronebogus (talk) 13:18, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Y) My mistake. Д. Карнаж (talk) 13:58, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  Remove I started searching in the text: "hostage" - zero; "Hamas" - zero; "October" - zero. Stop! "Israel-created crisis", wow. I wanted to write “a usual piece of jihadist propaganda”, but no, it’s more blatant than usual. Not in my voice. --Nicoljaus (talk) 15:31, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
History does not begin on October 7th. If you have read your Torah, you should know that God has created the world and human civilization a long, long time ago. Interaccoonale (talk) 16:20, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If you have read your Torah - Wow. The new normal on Wikipedia. Nicoljaus (talk) 16:31, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is Wikimedia meta, not Wikipedia. Interaccoonale (talk) 16:51, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"This includes name calling, using slurs or stereotypes, and any attacks based on personal characteristics. Insults may refer to perceived characteristics like intelligence, appearance, ethnicity, race, religion" Nicoljaus (talk) 23:52, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I did not attack you. I just assumed that you should know your own culture. Just as a Briton should read Shakespeare, and a French should read Hugo. PS: I am an atheist, but I also know the Chinese mythologies. Interaccoonale (talk) 01:51, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You have no idea about my culture, so your speculations are stupid and funny to me, but they are offensive to editors from Israel. Exactly like the statement under discussion. Nicoljaus (talk) 06:44, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  Keep &&   Comment to some people who voted to delete: I don't see this page having anything to do with Hamas. How much do you love Hamas that you want to write its name on all pages? Interaccoonale (talk) 16:24, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  Remove It's an attempt by a certain political group to weaponize Wikipedia, not to mention the grotesque distortion of reality. They failed to mention that there was a ceasefire on October 6, and that it was Hamas who broke it, starting the war on October 7. In fact, they failed to mention Hamas at all. The way they are framing the conflict, it's only Israel and the Palestinians. In their crooked mirror, there is no Hamas, no terror, no 7/10 massacre, no rapes, no hundreds of kidnapped hostages. I don't think that such Orwellian propaganda should exploit Wikivoice.
Desertdweller1983 (talk) 17:34, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
History didn't start at that time, even the past and far away. 🍃Zulf🍃talk 19:16, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  Remove If the wiki community turns into a political party, I did not join such a party. Support terrorists separately from Wikipedia. Pessimist (talk) 19:24, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  Remove. Cannot participate in Wikipedia, if it supports terrorists (such as Hamas) killing plenty of innocent people,
, using Gaza region habitants as human shield, stealing humanitarian aid, etc. Горизонт событий (talk) 04:06, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Comment I respectfully ask that this RfD (that doesn't appear to have been made in good faith in the first place) be closed as it is quickly devolving into a political argument that has nothing to do with the statement. Canvassing for participation in this RfD on the Hebrew and Russian Wikipedias has summoned people interested in suppressing voices they don't agree with who are deflecting from and drowning any legitimate discussion of the merits of the RfD. --Fjmustak (talk) 19:41, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Keep While every Wikimedian is entitled to their opinion and their own political activity outside Wikimedia projects, I believe the WMF, affiliates, and Wikiprojects (collectively) should remain neutral. That being said, deleting an open letter by part of the community is an extraordinary measure I think is not granted here. SOPA blackout enjoyed high support. Almost nobody raised an eyebrow when Ukrainian Wikipedia had several project pages dedicated to support the government of Ukraine, including calls to cyberwarfare. Almost nobody expressed any concern about the Wikimedia Foundation allying with Silicon Valley companies to campaign against Trump's immigration policies. And I certainly do not expect that a call to stop genocide is the instance that is off limits. Would you like more political neutrality from the WMF, affiliates, and Wikimedia projects? Feel free to start the process for a global policy. MarioGom (talk) 20:04, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I was wondering why everyone from ruwiki suddenly showed up to bloc-vote against keeping. Dronebogus (talk) 00:58, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not true. At least three spoke in favor of “keep.” Nicoljaus (talk) 06:39, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Keep I agree with Fjmustak. I believe that the statement aligns with the inclusion policy, because the purpose is to augment the WMF's response and support for the volunteer community in Gaza and it asks it to support the community in Gaza and ensure the impartiality of content about Palestinian genocide. We have to support our Palestinian colleagues and an open letter is a very good way to point out attention in the precarious situation our Palestinian colleagues face. They need our support. NikosLikomitros (talk) 20:09, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  Remove because it politicizes Wikipedia and politicizes humanitarian issues. Probably the statement would be ok if it didn't mention Israel. Mentioning Israel and not mentioning the other side Israel is fighting against (It's Hamas, and not the Palestinian people) makes the statement miss the point and distort the truth. In addition, "you have chosen the side of the oppressor" again means it condemns Israel without explanations, which is manipulative. Let us keep politics out of Wikipedia. Rijikk (talk) 20:31, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"Everyone dead in Gaza is actually Hamas" is a claim so outlandish that I am not surprised that only a Russian Wikipedia community member is pushing that bogus line, Rijikk. (Speaking as a Russian Wikipedia community member myself.) stjn[ru] 23:05, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
But... Rijikk did not make such a claim! Here is his statement, right before everyone’s eyes. But that's exactly how the big lie works. Nicoljaus (talk) 23:34, 17 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Just another example of weird misinterpretation. Sorry, stjn, I didn't expect it from you. Rijikk (talk) 00:03, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Everyone dead in Gaza is actually Hamas — they didn't make such a statement. Горизонт событий (talk) 04:11, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  Comment "everything I don't like is politics, everything that I like is not politics" --Sleeps-Darkly (talk) 00:38, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
what about the human tragedy. 🍃Zulf🍃talk 06:55, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  Keep It doesn't violate wikimedia policies Raedfares (talk) 07:32, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Borderline case edit

Doesn't seem to be within Meta's scope. --Min☠︎rax«¦talk¦» 13:15, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete yeah, not the place.
🌴Zulf talk 15:36, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete what is this thing? An incredibly boring essay some IP apparently moved from enwiki during WM’s absolute infancy, and it’s still kicking around 20 years later? Who actually reads this thing, let alone finds it helpful? I’d look at page statistics but it’s not even worth the effort. Dronebogus (talk) 11:23, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete English Wikipedia related old stuff which doesn't have any relevance there as well. Unsure about how it is in-scope here? ─ Aafī (talk) 21:12, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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