Grants talk:PEG/Wikimedia Community Brazilian Group of Education and Research/Wiki Loves Earth Brasil 2015

A decision has been made on this grant. Comments are still welcome on this page.

GAC members who support this request

1. In general yes. Considering the short time I give my support but opening a discussion to evaluate better the impact of what is proposed. If Brazil will repeat the same numbers of the last year, it would be already a good result in my opinion. --Ilario (talk) 16:51, 23 April 2015 (UTC)
2. --DerekvG (talk) 17:40, 24 April 2015 (UTC) as per Ilario
3. good results before, quite reasonable budget rubin16 (talk) 12:18, 25 April 2015 (UTC)
4. I think all goals can be achieved and measures of success are reasonable. I only wish to see more detailed budget, not only here, but in all projects.--Wertuose (talk) 06:29, 27 April 2015 (UTC)
5. Previous result and activities is good. And budget also reasonable. --Hasive • talk • 06:52, 30 April 2015 (UTC)

GAC comments

Hi, a small suggestion, not a bad comment.

The proposal is not detailed so I will try to understand the request and to give here my concerns. I have organized several Wiki Loves Monuments and this year also a Wiki Loves Earth and I understand that the first time a group would realize a wonderful event, I had the same feeling the first time I participated in a similar organization. Here the main points:

1. Too much ambitious in my opinion. 400 participants is a huge number and the number of photos too. I would suggest to work more around quality than around quantity mainly with photos.
2. I don't understand the impact of the photo exhibition and what advantage it can bring to the project

In my opinion the proposal of the Wikimedia Tunisia makes more sense because the budget is finalized to reach the goal and to help photographers. The best is to learn lessons from other groups and to define clearly a risk management grid in order to focus in few objectives and to analyze how the project can realize them. --Ilario (talk) 12:10, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

Hello Ilario, thanks by your comments. That is the first photo contest organized by that new group, but last year I was responsible by the WLE Brasil 2014 as member of the Brazilian Catalyst Program, so we have some experience in that kind of contest. During the WLE 2014 we received more than 7.000 photos and near 950 photographers participated in that edition, with a new user engagement near 95%. I think that numbers on the proposal are not so much ambitious at all. Regarding the budget request, the prizes defined during the last year was crucial to have the great level of participation that we had and the exhibition was very important too. Great part of the good photographers here are interested in the impact of the media coverage and the attention that this kind of activity can bring to the work exhibited. The last year exhibition was made inside a big international photo conference in Brasil. Last year the winners of the contest was announced in a printed magazine distributed in all Brazilian states( more than 50.000 copies), for this year we will have the same partnership with that magazine for the August's edition. I will try to improve the proposal based on your comments. If necessary, we can cut the exhibition during the grant evaluation, the most important is to guarantee the grant for the prizes Rodrigo Padula (talk) 13:24, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

Hi Rodrigo, my request is not to cut off the items but only to justify the impact that they can have. If you think that the photo exhibition can be important, there is no problem. --Ilario (talk) 16:49, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

I got it Ilario, I think the photo exhibitions are a good activity to engage and bring new people to the movement. Last year was a really good experience to see people in person reading the photos descriptions and the presentation text on the walls and saying "next year I will participate to try to be here" and "oh my god this is a photo exhibition from pictures available on wikipedia" :-) so, IMHO it's very important, but in other hand, it is not indispensable, that is why I told that in that grant, the most important is to guarantee the prizes.Thanks by your comments and attention with that request Rodrigo Padula (talk) 19:45, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

Prizes

Do I use wrong exchange rate from local currency to USD? First prize: 3000 Brazilian Real equals 997.61 US Dollar seems too high. Regards, --Violetova (talk) 12:52, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

Last year we did a study based on the local photo contests. Great part of the prizes for this kind of contests here are from R$10.000 to R$50.000. This can sounds strange for you but a claim that we received during the 2014's edition was that our prizes are to low for this kind of contest, the same argument was published in an important local technology blog. Unfortunately, to bring new good photographers and good photos, we need to spend some extra money with the prizes. I asked the TOP10 photographers of the last edition and all confirmed to me that the value of the prizes was the most important point that attracted they to participate in the contest. As you can see here, the final result was really good, the winner of the Brazilian edition was elected the 2nd in the international contest and in 7# position on the Photo of the Year at Commons Rodrigo Padula (talk) 13:24, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

Violetova This is too high, too high, 3'000 BRL (~1000 USD today) is the value of a average high salary of a engineer/medic in the first 5 years of his careerer here in Brazil, this is pretty high for any contest around the world, you can compare to others here: www.photocontestinsider.com, let alone the ones in Brazil.

This is away higher than other WLE that normally price as 300 EUR, and 300 BRL (~100 USD today) is a good price, 10 times less, the result needs to be 10 times better...

More, being exposed in Paraty in Foco represents nothing, and by the quality of the exposition assembled for ~5500 USD (in 2014 the 1 USD was ~2,2 BRL) >>> File:Wiki Loves Earth Brasil 2014 - Exhibition - Photo Cloud and Visitors 6.JPG

Last year this money was already funded via grant, but trough the Brazil Program, and not passed by validation, and not report was given to show the real results.

He affirms that the result was really good, but this is not even close to be true. See below.

Rodrigo Tetsuo Argenton ^m 11:50, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

The Paraty in Foco is a very important event here in Brasil and the value of the exposition was not only for the printing, but for the room rental and value requested by the organization committee. Since that is an private/for profit event, everything must be payed. The original value requested was around R$25.000 and I negotiated a 50% discount. Some time is very complicated to mesure the results of offline activities, for us the result was very positive since we spread the message to our public, photographers and students. The international organization from Ukraine and other countries was very happy with our results and it was internationally recognized, Argentom is the only guy that I heard talking that the contest was not good and was not important, since it was organized basically by me using part of my time as consultant for the catalyst program and as a contributor(a lot of my free time) for many people the results was really impressed, since in Brasil that was the first edition of a Wiki photo contest.Rodrigo Padula (talk) 14:32, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

Organization "team"

Where are the names of the people who are organizing this year WML2015 in Brazil? How many people are working on this. Béria L. de Rodríguez ^msg 14:40, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

Hello Beria, Do you mean WLE 2015 right? here you can see the inital list of contributors, some other guys will join us there soon. Our planning/documentation page is here.Rodrigo Padula (talk) 15:01, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

Community comments

15% usage target

By what date does the team hope to have achieved usage of 15% of the images on Wikipedia? I've used GLAMorous to see that around 4.5% of photos from last year's contest are currently used. How will the team help to increase the percentage of the content used from this year's competition?

Thanks Mrjohncummings (talk) 10:22, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

Hello Mrjohncummings, based on that tool, the use of the received photos was around 12%. I dont know exactly how that number was calculated/verified. My target was calculated based on that number and in tha fact that last year we didnt any special effort to use the photos. This year I'm planning to organize 2 edit-a-thons. One in may during the contest and other after the final results in august/september. I'm in touch with some universities and with the local Brazilian Ministry regarding the contest. My idea is to focus on the inclusion of new national parks and improve the use of the photos from 2014 and 2015 contests.

Mrjohncummings, They don't have any idea of the used, they do not measured the previous WLE (at least did not reported), and I strong believe that the use is away lower than that. Rodrigo Tetsuo Argenton ^m 13:17, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

You are always claiming, since the last edition when you tried to stop me to organize that contest with many fallacies. If you had use the time you spent claiming and trying to stop the contest and spent that time improving the use of our photos for sure that number could be around 60% Rodrigo Padula (talk) 15:23, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

Lack of previous report

Hello guys,

You should be more careful in support this events, the previous edition was made by WMF Grant money trough the Brazil Program (grant money), but received a Carte Blanche on the used of the money, because they had already ~560 000 USD to use, so 15 000 USD was nothing...

We don't have any report after the used of the WMF Grant money on this event (okay, we don't have any report from the Padula's "work"), so we cannot measured the real results. What we know now is:

• None of the winners continued contributing
  • 1 ● 2 ● 3-5-8 ● 4-10 ● 6 ● 7 ● 9 (and yes, 7 people occupying the top 10)
• Just one of the 10 top places received a Wikimedia Commons approval of quality, the second place received a devastating negative from the community see here
• The 4/5/6/10 places are complete out of the WLE goal, as they do not illustrate the park, the around... and the lack of description in some of then made then out of educational propose.
• The previous event was ridicules overpriced, this was away higher then other photo contest around the world (and none of the highest used only donation money, they always have a company helping), and other WLE, even higher then practically all WLM, and the higher prices on WLM normally have a ceremony
  • Brazilians volunteers estimates something close to 15'00 USD, as was used already used 4'500 on prices, and he rent the Party on Focus on the last year, he asking 12'000 BRL for that this year, on 2014 12'000 BRL represents 5'500 USD, but in the last year, entering in website you will see, the WMF entered was a "supporters", so we don't now how much was used and he published in some magazines...
  • About Paraty on Focus, this is not a mainstream event, they don't have tons of people passing by the event, and the quality of the exposition assembled for more then 5000 USD was that:

• 
• 
• 

• Again we estimate, because we don't have any report about the used of the money, and the

• This was not a Brazilian community event, they refused to work with Padula, and Padula was hired by the WMF by the time of the event.
• Padula used the WLE to promote himself, as going to Campus Party Brasil 2015 to talk in the name of the Wikimedia Commons (he cannot be considered a Commons volunteer see)[1] appearing on media [2] [3]...
• And none of the Brazilians volunteers received a invitation to the Paraty on Focus, except Padula.

And now the price is even higher, and he used as justification "the prizes was the most important point that attracted they to participate in the contest", well, is only about the money? We want that? It is not better hired some that could give us better results? Wait, we are volunteers, no? And we cannot guarantee that more money will attract more people, as File:WLM 2 Budget Participation Photos Added 2012.png WLM showed us. And more then 3 times more expansive then Tunisia proposal (here) that have workshops to assist the photographers, a promotional event, and 2 photo walks. And as a Wikimedia Commons volunteer, I saw a lot of problems in images provided via WLE BR, away more then other countries, by the lack of instructions given by the documentation, resulting in a sack of images without educational propouse, or with a educational propose, but we cannot properly identify the object, example, the third place the description: "Bird on the sea"... so workshops and better documentation was a must need.

He do not have the list of the participants, the list of volunteers of the WUG is not reliable, and they never did a single activity, and we do not know whom gonna manage the money, sound fishy.

So DerekvG , Ilario, Rubin16 you should at least request the previous report to support a thing like that. This is not a low budget event, we did a 2 days national meeting by 2000 USD less, see, and other countries used away less resources to achieve even better results.

OBS: He will see my name and start a attack using my block log as a argument, I'm a Wikimedia volunteer since 2006, have tons of offline contributions, and to Wikimedia Commons, and other wikis, former OTRS volunteer. And most important, one of the few that saw all of the bad work and use of the money made by him, and cares. Rodrigo Tetsuo Argenton ^m 13:14, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

That is really the point R.T.Argenton, you are always fighting against me and all initiatives organized by anyone on the Brazilian movement, but you never are really contributing with something positive, only fallacies. How can we work and take in consideration your comments since you are always generating problems and based on that same behavior that we are seeing here you was blocked in all projects that you tried to contribute, Wikipedia, Wikinews, Wikivoyage and etc. Every time you try to block an initiative organized by me, you give me more energy to improve that and move forward! Regarding the money, all money used for the last year contest was approved by WMF, the Brazilian catalyst program manager Oona and the local partner Ação Educativa. We published and announced all activities and reports on meta,wikipédia and to WMF. Regarding self promotion, I dont need that but in any case, the name of the person responsible by the event will be published in interviews and posts, do you want to see your name in something positive, try to do something POSITIVE IN YOUR LIFE. You lost friends and colleagues by that behavior, change that or you will stay alone in your WIKINAMBÁS project, you will be always a group of "one guy". I'm a speaker at Campus Party since the firsts editions and I was invited by a friend from the organization committee to give a keynote regarding Commons and the contest and I just accepted that, you can search on google and you will see that I gave keynotes in many other events regarding many other subjects, I dont need support or acceptance from any person to do that and share my knowledge/experience, for sure you will see me in many other events and editions of Campus Party, accept that. About the photo exhibition it was paid because the Paraty em Foco is a very important event in Brasil and it's for profit, I got 50% of discount to be there, the initial cost was around R$25.000, as I announced in our event page and on wikipedia the event was open to everyone, for free, I was not invited or any subscription was necessary to access the exhibition as I announced on our pages and facebook official page.

Resuming, for me it is always very complicated to justify and explain the Rodrigo Tetsuo Argenton's questions and accusations because he is aways doing the same, causing problems and fighting against everything. The Argenton's preocupation here is not with the money usage or the impact of the project, he is only trying to win another battle The WLE was a huge personal effort and I didn't received so much support from the local community, as you can see here some people like Argentom are very reactive. People like Argentom is aways fighthing against the projects and doing nothing. They don't participate in our discussions and planning pages, they only participate later to claim and accuse us of misuse of resources. Argentom and all local members had the possibilty to organize that type of contest, they never finished any discussion or plan of a local contest, so by the first time I took the lead and moved forward, for Argentom it's a very bad thing. Recently I got approved a new user group to move forward with projects and initiatives and Argentom is there fighting against the AffCom's decision, sending emails to wikimedia-l and as usual, people are just ignoring him. Unfortunatelly, I dont have the power to ignore this kind of fallacies and personal attacks. I strongly recommend that someone responsible to manger META wiki to do something against this kind, people like Argentom is keeping and moving good contributors away from the Wikimedia Projects. We have a lot of work to do here and is very complicated to aways have to deal with this kind of behavior.

Argentom, accept that, like in the last year I will move forward with the WLE and will organize the contest with or without any support, specially from you, you will not take me down!! You trash talk will not stop me. For sure you are my Sheriff John Brown.

--Sheriff John Brown always hated me, For what, I don't know, Every time I plant a seed, He said kill it before it grow,He said kill them before they grow. Bob Marley Rodrigo Padula (talk) 15:23, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

Regarding all resources used by the Brazilian Catalyst Program and WLE 2014, Asaf (WMF) can confirm that everything was ok as approved and recommended by WMF, with all transparency and following all the recommendations. I never received any cent from the budget dedicated to WLE2014 and all payments was executed directly by the local partner(Ação Educativa) to the winners and other companies involved in the process. Rodrigo Padula (talk) 17:30, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

q.e.d. - "He will see my name and start a attack using my block log as a argument" - 13:14, 26 April 2015 [4]

Some one saw that he did not refused any of the problems pointed? He just started a fierce, passionate, and unreasonable attack against a volunteer to avoid the questions. Plus a legal treat [5] and a more serious one "Já tenho aqui seus telefones, endereço" "I already have here your phones, address" (who gave my address, WMF? o.O)

So, this guy above could be the responsible to receive 10'000 USD provided trough donation? When we ask questions, this will be his posture? Rodrigo Tetsuo Argenton ^m 00:23, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

Everything regarding WLE 2014 is reported, explained and spread in many links as exposed by Oona as well all decisions regarding the contest. You never contributed to any discussion regarding the contest, you are always trowing rocks on me and all my proposals, so you have a personal issue against me and I will not tolerate it anymore. I had that same conversation in other places and you didnt got it until now prepositionally and you are not here to improve that proposal or improve the WLE 2015, you are here to generate noise, create problems and barriers. I'm here as a volunteer and that very bad, low level conversation is consuming a lot of my free time as contributor. I will not tolerate it anymore and your trash talking with words like "Carte Blanche", "fishy", "no reports", "misuse of wmf money" and phrases like "could be the responsible to receive 10'000 USD provided trough donation?" That is defamation and here in Brasil we have laws regarding that. You are constantly blocked in many Wikimedia projects based on your bad behavior, I will not accept that against me and my name. Following the recommendation of my lawyer I will stop to talk to you and answer your questions. You have a very good potential of contribution, but you always use your potential to be disruptive and do defamatory conversations. That's enough for me. Me and Oona had provide all answer to your questions but you don't want to read and understand that, so I'm move forward. IMHO someone have to do something to not allow this kind of conversations and accusations on META, that is not healthy for the project and for the entire Wikimedia Movement.

So to all the GAC members, if you have any question regarding all that conversation, please update that page and I will provide all information and answers as necessary. Best regards Rodrigo Padula (talk) 12:10, 27 April 2015 (UTC) .

"and I will not tolerate it anymore [...]. I will not tolerate it anymore [...] I will not accept that against me and my name" - So what you gonna do? For me, it's a threat, specially when you said that you have my address...

And it's not ;) "no reports" means "no reports", "Carte Blanche" "complete freedom to do something", "misuse of wmf money" means that WMF could be investing in better things, fishy I did not wrote, I wrote "sounds fishy" that means "dubious, suspicious", and "could be the responsible to receive 10'000 USD provided trough donation?" means "could be the responsible to receive 10'000 USD provided trough donation?". Actually the most close to a "defamation" in all this text is "You are constantly blocked in many Wikimedia projects based on your bad behavior", and even in this case, the honour is not in question... so not, this is not defamation.

And why you did answer questions raised, avoiding then attacking a volunteer? Why this prizes are not even closer to others WLE? Or contests made in Brazil as I GP of Wikimedia Brazil, that just offered giveaways as prizes? Why you did not tried giveaways? Why you did not consult the community for defining the prize? (Did you consult anyone to increase the prize?). Rodrigo Tetsuo Argenton (talk) 16:56, 29 April 2015 (UTC)

Clarifications on Brazil Program role in WLE 2014 and my 2 cents

Dear all, as ex-manager of the Brazil Program, I'm here to clarify a few points and to add my 2 cents on my personal capacity as volunteer now.

Firstly I should say I'm very sad to come back to Meta under these circumstances. I'm not going through each of the points raised above by both "Rodrigos" as they are very confusing and mix different types of arguments and criticism I really won't engage in.

In our proposal to WMF, ACTIVITY 4 of Support communities building was "to support the community in organizing a photo contest". There was no specific budget line for that because we expected to support with working hours and contacts for partnerships, helping planning and implementing etc.. Grants for it could be given by WMF to the community organizers if requested. Even our microgrants budget line could be used if requested.

As our program happened during the period of WLE, two ex-staff members reached out to two active community members to check on their interest and availability to organize it. They answered, on a google chat (so, regrettably, there is no online record of it), to those 2 staff members, that they were interested, but wouldn't be able to handle that in time - perhaps in the following year. Rodrigo Padula, then, proposed to me that he (as a staff member but also as a volunteer) organized the contest and documented it. At least we would be able to share the experience and learnings (the Brazilian community had never organized a photo contest and would, for several years, mention the idea, and later drop it, for a variety of reasons), promote Commons in Brazil, collect new photos and invite new editors. We consulted WMF on the possibility of reverting a line budget from another activity into this one, which was allowed. Expenses were covered with the line originally designated to the "Methology development for sharing educational practices using Wiki as a tool for education". The results were reported here.

I see them overall as very positive. Improvements could be made, but it definitely brought good new images into Commons. One of them was even rewarded in the international phase of the contest. While I see retention and a more thorough use of Commons are challenges for the next contest, I can't help saying this should be a learning, rather than a reason to stop the contest from happening. So I'd suggest anyone unhappy with it be bold and engage in the organization of the 2015 contest proposing creative solutions. And the usergroup and Padula should be opened to anyone willing to help (really help, not mess the environment around). This is not a contest of who does what, with which budget. If the proposal seems reasonable, why prevent it from being successful?

It's high-time Brazilian community overcame unproductive and childish disputes on ownership, legitimacy and legacy - leaving immature and evil, frivolous, defamatory backstage politics for those who are not devoting their time for the common good, as every volunteer here is. --Oona (talk) 18:54, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments and clarifications Oona, our user group and WLE organization committee is open to anyone and all kind of contributions, but some people prefer to come here to fight against the activity and proposal than go to the planning page to help and suggest productive ideas and improvements. Best regards Rodrigo Padula (talk) 20:57, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

Whom is trying to stop anything Oona? Could pleas be transparent?

Violetova that founded too high the prize, Ilario that questioned the importance of the Paraty em Foco? Me, that requested a adjusting on the budge to the reality of the Movement, and requested a report?

This link is not a report, where is the money used? Where is the lessons learned? Where is the measures of success? Where are the goals of this event? Who did the event? What was the activities did during this event? How did you measured this numbers? What was the agreement between WMF and Paraty em Foco?

And why other countries offers 300 EUR for the better photo, and Brazil 1000 USD? Why Brazilians can spend 5000 USD in a event that the community could not participate? And why we should receive a WMF intervention and money can go directly to a activity, even community volunteers being against and no support was given to this amount of money spent?

And when a former WMF staff say things like "It's high-time Brazilian community overcame unproductive and childish disputes on ownership, legitimacy and legacy - leaving immature and evil, frivolous, defamatory backstage politics for those who are not devoting their time for the common good, as every volunteer here is." is better be more clear, from my point of view, Brazil Program "being volunteers" tried to overcame the ownership giving attention to some "online volunteers", was successful, and then the "new owners" of the community expelled the WMF staff (Padula), and then he simply ignored that and tried to have representative in Brazil creating another WUG. So guess who we could blame here...

And who is doing good? The guy who treat a volunteer? And already attacked two other volunteers? This guy? >> "This is the last warning [...] I already have here your address, and everything else needed to start a process of moral damages" [6] (my highlight), just because I'm the only one that cares about the hard money used and low impact? Because I am a friend of the one of the others volunteers attacked?

Other details:

• "two ex-staff members" - who?
• "to support the community in organizing a photo contest" (my highlight) - not assume the community paper...
• "organized the contest and documented it" - where is this documents? The "final report" do not shows how to do a photo contest on a wiki, the steps, what was did, lessons learned...
• invite new editors - how many are those? And what was the goal? (number, as in a grant) 960 people that was in the contest for the money? How many became a volunteer?
• definitely brought good new images into Commons. - definitely? The Wikimedia Commons community did not put a plural on this sentence, they verify one image of quality, enter here and click on "good pictures"
• If the proposal seems reasonable, why prevent it from being successful? - so we ignore the accountability? We cannot request a lower budget? What's your point?
• Methology development for sharing educational practices using Wiki as a tool for education". - where is the "educational practices"?

And last "mix different types of arguments" - what arguments that I did, you do not need to discuss, but how about you point that? Because I am not using any argumentative speech here, I am requesting a report, showing some facts and impressions, and simply comparing to other WLE contests, not a single argument.

Just one more question out of the subject, if you were sad to write why did you wrote? To protect the Movement, clearly was not... Rodrigo Tetsuo Argenton ^m 00:13, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

Answers

• Hi Rodrigo, I'm sorry if I misunderstood what you meant. I came here (and sad) because I was tagged in a discussion that looked like a deja vu to me. Endless non-objective discussions that caused a lot of exhaustion on many parts, including on you, I'm sure. So let me get this right: all you are requiring above is a lower prize and the links to reports? (by saying there were no reports and so on you - perhaps unintentionally - were misleadingly discrediting the documentation, reports and use of the grant of Brazil program). I do believe there are important general learnings in that report (including the problem you always raised about having an incorporated institution to do it and the one you mentioned above about having a company additionally supporting it), but full documentation is on br.wikimedia, in Portuguese, where the contest organization started and was documented.
• About the prize: I don't see a problem in discussing the prize. Anyone may do that. But at the time we did some benchmarking (different contests have different conditions, so it's kind of hard to compare) and saw prizes from R$ 200 to R$ 50.000,00 - and decided that R$ 2.500 for the first winner sounded like a good prize, but not obscenely high.
• Just a context for non Brazilians, Brazil's prices are extraordinarily high, any visitor from Europe and US gets shocked and there are news everywhere.
• Some links to different cont"ests/prizes:
  • R$ 50.000 - http://www.premiobrasilfotografia.com.br/regulamento/ (print sets of 8-12 photos)
  • R$ 10.000 - http://www.diariocontemporaneo.com.br/?page_id=10
  • Leica prizes worth 10.000 euros - https://ijnet.org/pt-br/opportunities/concurso-de-fotografia-oferece-pr%C3%AAmios-da-leica
• Perhaps you're right and WLE can do an experiment and try to offer a much lower prize and see how it goes. It may be as successful as the one with higher prizes. But I mention those links and explain our rationale in here in order to offer everyone the chance to see that was not an arbitrary decision based on nothing, with abusive behavior.
• Getting straight here on answers to other questions: Celio and Padula talked to Vinicius and Jonas by google talk and they liked the idea, but wouldn't have the time to lead it. Later Padula created the WLE page on br.wikimedia and dialogue followed. Criticisms on the centralization of the contest were mentioned in the report. A careful reading will show that.
• I don't get the second one: playing community role is object of criticism as well as not playing community role. So, what is left?
• As mentioned above: documentation is on br.wikimedia and on the report
• Goals were stated here and achievements were reported here
• Aren't these pictures good?
• Of course anyone may discuss the budget, request information and even criticize the proposal. But one thing is calling for adjustments. The other is disqualifying all efforts by saying "sound fishy".
• As I said, here and on the report, this activity was replaced by WLE
• About arguments, I think it's clear enough in language use: "Carte Blanche", "fishy", "no reports". Not true. The grant and the project proposal were submitted on Meta, there was time for participation, there were reports, there was dialogues, answers to questionings like the ones here and so on.
• Who is the movement, Rodrigo? And protect from whom?
• About the last sentence, I mentioned frequent disruptive behavior from all parts (staff and community members) and the constant conflict on who should be doing what among the various stakeholders regarding the program in Brazil. I don't think it's appropriate to go further here, but I just want to acknowledge your frank, open and honest criticism, which I value very much, even when it drives me nuts, or when I disagree. What I most unlike about it is when it becomes an endless, uncivil criticism on every little detail of anything anyone tries to do. We all know there are also lots of defamatory, harmful, unrecorded and untrue gossips around this movement, but this is not the point here. You were very clear. I just think we all should try to be less personal about it in general. And I think both of you made your disagreements personal in some ways.
• I hope I have made myself clear and I wish you all a great conversation. I'll be busy the next days, so may not come back too soon.

--Oona (talk) 02:52, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

• "Aren't these pictures good?" - no, this are good >> commons:Commons:Featured pictures (and some spectacular)... lets be more clear: good photos, and that level of pictures is expected when you put a 2500 BRL as prize, because in this amount of money you can reach some pro photo shooters (as they normally request less for a photo shoot). But again, the target is wrong, we don't need 5000 random pics, we can do massive importations and reach that number, what we need is images to illustrate some missing point, but more importantly grow the pool of volunteers, and for that reason, a exorbitant prize is bad for the contest, it is not attractive for volunteers, moreover can be highly demotivate for already volunteers. So this contest could make the actual volunteers less interest, and do not attract new volunteers... Did you see a pattern here?
• " project proposal were submitted on Meta" the one that was exposed to the community after the realise of the contest, and received criticism and you keep going? Or that one that the volunteer (me) that was criticizing was block, for no reason, and you keep going? This is not the definition of Carte Blanche, be authorized to do what you want, even when people say to not to do it?

It's very clear that the same mistakes are happing again, not improving at all, as defining the prize without a community consultation, as not request to Wikipedia and Wikimedia Commons to participate in the construction of a list of the missing illustrations, a ridiculous high centralization (just see the number of participations on this conversation, and of course they will appear as part of the Padulas game), not creating a environment to discuss points, including one event that is not align to the Movement, it's only a commercial event...

• "Who is the movement, Rodrigo?" >> Wikimedia Movement, for waste tons of money, based on nothing solid as you do not have the expertise in the area, do not consult who does, and did not tried a lower prize. In the other hand, Wikimedia Brasil had a participation of ~150 people to contest in edition at Wikipedia (away more complex than a photo contest), and the higher price announce was a hooded...
• Anyway, this event is going to a dark place again, away out of the why do we have grants, I'm super tired, I have more things to do if not even the grant committee has the responsibility to say no to abusive prizes and question who is behind the organization of the event, why I'm caring?... Rodrigo Tetsuo Argenton (talk) 16:31, 29 April 2015 (UTC)

WMF comments

Hi Rodrigo Padula . Thanks for submitting this request and your engagement in the discussion so far. We have a number of remaining questions:

1. Great to hear that you're creating partnerships with "photo clubs, cultural centers, and professional photographers". Can you provide a bit more detail on what type of partnerships these are?
   1. Basically we are doing informal partnerships with focus on marketing and media coverage. Until now we confirmed partnership with the Fotografe Melhor magazine and the Brazilian Photo Confederation, both was added in our marketing content and site and on the other hand they will publish a magazine with the results of the WLE, publish news regarding the contest and organize offline activities. Rodrigo Padula (talk) 02:43, 5 May 2015 (UTC)
2. It's important that you're thinking about how to best onboard/educate new contributors and what type of follow-up should be done to retain new users. Can you provide more detail on what type of direct communication you're currently doing and what type of follow-up you plan to do after the event? Do you have any learnings around follow-up from last year -- what worked/what didn't work?
   1. Last year we used a bot to post messages to the contest participants and we used direct communication by email and facebook. For this year we are thinking to use the same strategy but improving the communication providing the content produced by the Brazilian Catalyst Program delivered only this year. So, using that content we are aiming to increase the retention. One problem that we had last year was the low level of contribution before/during/after the contest by the local community. During this year we are having the same problem, but I'm planning to have at least 2 edit-a-thons through our partners on the Wikimedia Brazilian Group of Education and Research. I'm negotiating the agenda with teachers and students to have one workshop and edit-a-thon this month and another one after the contest results in June with focus on Natural Heritage and the use of the good photos received through the WLE2014 and WLE2015. Rodrigo Padula (talk) 02:43, 5 May 2015 (UTC)
3. We appreciate your targeted metrics. Regarding images use, you would to see 15% of photos used on Wikipedia -- within what time frame? Can you specify if this is total images used or distinct images used?
   1. The time frame is from May-December, because until there we will have a lot of work categorizing and removing/fixing pictures uploaded during the contest. Regarding the metric, it's about distinct images used, it will depend a lot of the quality and quantity of photos uploaded, the repetitions of pictures of the same place and etc. Rodrigo Padula (talk) 02:43, 5 May 2015 (UTC)
4. Last year there were 928 contributors to the contest. This year you are aiming for 400. Typically, we do see a decrease in the number of photos/contributors in the second year of a contest, but we're wondering why you believe there will be less than half the number of participants?
   1. Last year I did a huge effort as contributor and as a consultant for the Brazilian Catalyst Program. This year I will not have all the time spent last year, but, I will do my best to have an excellent contest and good results for the movement. Based on that and the arguments presented by you, we are expecting to have something around 400-500 participants with more participation from the top contributors from the last contest. For sure we can have better results, it will depends a lot of the media coverage and extra time with marketing. Rodrigo Padula (talk) 02:43, 5 May 2015 (UTC)
5. In terms of new user retention, the target is 10%. Does this mean 20 active editors (5 edits/month), which is quite high, or something else?
   1. I have to study a little bit more regarding the metrics, but the idea is to have at least 10% of the participants uploading and updating the pictures sent (5 edits/month) during the next semester. Rodrigo Padula (talk) 02:43, 5 May 2015 (UTC)
6. Can you please clarify the difference between the two prize categories? One is for best photo and the other is for best use on Wikimedia projects?
   1. The first prize category is for the top 3 "best photos" with a qualitative analysis as usual for the top 10 in WLE and WLM contests and the other category is "best contributions" with a qualitative/quantitative analysis to motivate people to upload more than one picture
7. Have you been able to find local partners/sponsors?
   1. Since we don't have a chapter and our group is not institutionalized(officially registered as a NGO) it's very complex for us to do that. We contacted Canon, Nikon and other companies last year, but based on the Brazilian regulations, to promote brands and products as prizes/sponsors in a local contest, would be necessary to request formal authorization from the gov and a lot of other bureaucracies. That's why in 2014 and this year we decided to give prizes in money, that is the only way to do a contest without all the bureaucracy requested by the gov. That affirmation is based on the study made by lawyers from Ação Educativa last year.Rodrigo Padula (talk) 02:43, 5 May 2015 (UTC)
8. The prizes are generally higher than what we typically fund. However, we do understand the context in Brazil is different and we thank Oona for providing some comparisons with other photography competitions. It will be good to revisit the prize budget for next year (if you decided to continue with WLE) based on results from the previous two years.
   1. Sure, since we dont have a big number of people(contributors) contributing to the contest and to spread it here, the bigger attraction that we have is the exhibition and the prizes. I know that is incredible, but during the last year the only one bad review that we received from the Brazilian media was regarding the "low value" of the prizes, for sure with more people helping during the next contests, for sure we will be able to cut some costs on our budget request, specially with a contest registered based on the gov regulations, with that we will be able to get local support and funding. Probably we will try it during WLM during the next semester if we get more support from the local community Rodrigo Padula (talk) 02:43, 5 May 2015 (UTC)
9. It would be great to better understand the value of having the exhibition as part of Paraty em Foco as it is a very expensive event. Photo competitions can have different goals -- to get the best photos possible on a specific topic (with the hope that they will be used on Wikimedia projects in the future), or as a way to attract new contributors to Wikimedia and your volunteer community, or both. Large prizes and an exhibition like this support the first goal, which targets professional photographers who may or may not have an interest in contributing to Wikimedia projects beyond the competition itself. We would encourage you think about other venues for promoting the contest that may appeal to people that both want to contribute high quality photos and have an interest in continuing to contribute. Other venues could include libraries, cultural institutions, art galleries, or public spaces, where often times the space is donated. Let me know if you have thoughts on alternatives to the Paraty em Foco. Having the magazine partnership does seem like a great strategy and with an even farther reach than the exhibition.
   1. We are thinking in both goals, that's why we are in touch with the magazine Fotografe Melhor (for beginners and professional photographers) and we are planning the exhibition. The last year exhibition was important to put Wikipedia and Commons as important channels for photographers publish and get recognized by their works. The value that we paid last year was negotiated and we got a 50% discount of the regular exhibition's price. I contacted some local cultural centers and normally they cover/support huge exhibitions but only with projects submitted 1 year before the exhibition through a long and difficult selection process, they offer the possibility to use only the space for free as well, but we have to pay all the costs of painting, printing and people to take care of the exhibition during all the days by 3-6 months, so at the end the costs are higher than do it during an event like Paraty in Foco.For this year I'm still negotiating the prices and probably I will be able to get a better space during Paraty in Foco. I'm still studying other possibilities for exhibitions, including other small cultural centers where we can do the exhibitions without a huge effort and high costs. An itinerant exhibition are in my plans, to show in many cities, but it will impact in the cost of transportation and better printing/frames. The exhibition is not indispensable, but it is very important to engage more people and get more recognition by the professionals in that field in Brasil Rodrigo Padula (talk) 02:43, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

Looking forward to your replies. Alex Wang (WMF) (talk) 01:12, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

Today I confirmed a new media partner, Fotografia DG an specialized photo blog. They will support us spreading the contest on the web. Currently they have +200.000 likes on facebook and more than 30K followers on twitter. Analyzing our current statistics, until now we received near 1.200 pictures, an average of 240 photos/day. Keeping that numbers we will have something near 7400 photos at the end of the contest. So, based on that numbers, since we didn't announced the value of the prizes yet, we decided to do an experiment reducing the value of the grant request following your recommendations AWang (WMF). Rodrigo Padula (talk) 21:54, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

Hi Rodrigo Padula. Thank you for your thoughtful responses and for considering the cost of the prizes. I appreciate that you've been looking into some other alternatives for the exhibition. We do understand that the value in terms of exposure of the Wikimedia projects/mission and benefit to photographers who participate in the conference is difficult to measure in any real terms. There is undoubtedly a benefit. But we also need to look at the sustainability of funding an activity like this year-on-year. Giving the timing of the event, we will fund the exhibition at Paraty em Foco this year, but hope the community can continue to explore other ways to gain exposure and recruit contributors. Happy to brainstorm more about this. Cheers, Alex Wang (WMF) (talk) 02:18, 7 May 2015 (UTC)