Talk:Wikimania 2007/Taipei

Wikimania 2007 candidate cities. Winner: Taipei
Other candidates: Alexandria | London | Torino

Hong Kong | Istanbul | Orlando | Singapore

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Hello! Thank you for your interest in Taipei's bidding effort for Wikimania 2007, please feel free to ask questions or give suggestions here.

(If you read and write Chinese, you may also use w:zh:Wikipedia:台灣主題公告欄/2007維基年會.)

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哈囉！感謝您對2007維基媒體國際年會台北競投工作的興趣，歡迎您在此提出問題或給予建議。

若您使用中文，您亦可利用w:zh:Wikipedia:台灣主題公告欄/2007維基年會。

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sponsorship question

• Other bids often include sponsorship for core expenses -- venue, accomodations, meal catering. Is there any chance of that kind of sponsorship? +sj | help with translation |+ 18:20, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Done, please see Wikimania 2007/Taipei#Local sponsorship opportunities.--theodoranian 15:33, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

It is not clear to me which costs exactly are taken care of. I got the Wi-fi part, and the fact that you confirm you confirm that conference venue costs will be covered, but which conference venue costs exactly? Rental of space, audiovisual, other? Thanks for the clarification. :-) notafish }<';> 21:32, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Hi, conference venue costs hereabove include the rental of space and all appropriate audiovisual equipments.--theodoranian 03:04, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

catering & sponsorship?

1. is there any more information about catering or dining areas on site?
2. it's not clear whether there is a *specific* sponsor who will be covering the venue costs or providing the venue free of charge, or just that you anticipate that there will be enough local sponsorship to cover these costs. Can you clarify?

thanks! -- phoebe 05:04, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

• hi, phoebe, thank you for your questions, here's the clarificaiton:
  • For the catering: breakfasts and lunches are provided by the CTOYAC restaurant on-site. Food can be prepared in Western styles or in Taiwanese and other Chinese cuisines. Food can be served in banquet style or buffet style. All these particulars can be accommodated to our need and request. The cost of breakfasts and lunches will be covered from local sponsorship.
  • For the cost of venue: two local sponsors will cover the cost of venue. CTOYAC will offer a discount of 15-20%, depending on our conference size; another local sponsor (which would like to remain anonymous until Taipei is chosen as the host city) will cover the rest of cost occurred on venue. --theodoranian 06:29, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

• thanks very much for the clarifications. great! -- phoebe 15:14, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Questions from the jury

Layout of conference venue in relationship to accomodation

Hi there. Is there any possibility that you can provide a rough sketch of how conference venue and accomodation are connected to each other? ie. lay of the land of sorts. Nothing fancy, a hand drawing will do, but just to give a better feel of what is where. Thank you! notafish }<';> 10:12, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

The convention building (left) and the residential building (right) at CTOYAC are connected and the walking distance is about 1 minute.

Map of Chien Tan Overseas Youth Activity Center and Surrounding Areas.

Map of Chien Tan Overseas Youth Activity Center and the Neighborhood .

Thanks for the question! Here is an illustrated photo on right.

• Label 1 points to the building where conference halls and rooms are housed.
• Label 2 points to the 10-story residential building.
• Label 3 points the restaurant on-site at CTOYAC.
• There is only one minute of walking between the two buildings. --theodoranian 16:31, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Party location opportunities

There is one thing we forgot to mention in the offcial requirements, but that we'd like to know now and that is what are the party locations that we can use for Wikimania. Wikimania usually has two parties, one in a cool and relaxed place for attendees (must hold 250-350 people), one in a quiet and chic place for sponsors and VIP (40-60 people). What locations would be good for that in Taipei? Thank you. notafish }<';> 10:31, 15 September 2006 (UTC) PS. this question is being asked to all bidding teams.

Thanks for the question. It is night time here in Taiwan when we knew the question and we need to research several potential places for conditions tomorrow morning. We would like to answer this question later. Thanks for the patience.--theodoranian 17:36, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for waiting. Here is the bidding team's answer on party locations:

1. Party for all attendees:

Taipei is a city with plentiful and colorful night life, so it is not difficult at all to find a cool and relaxed place for the party. Since there's almost a year before the party, most places contacted by us are not accepting reservations yet. However, we have several plans in our mind, and the exact place can be decided depending on what style the participants prefer. For a disco and lounge style, we suggest a very nice place called Y17 Youth Center, which is easily reached from CTOYAC (the conference venue) by MRT and foot. We took some pictures at Y17 Center this afternoon and they are presented below. For a special party in a specific institution like this year's MIT museum, it is possible but it will take some time to arrange. If interested, we can have a Wikimania tour on Monday to the National Palace Museum, which has a large collection of Chinese artwork brought by the Kuomingtang from mainland China in 1949 during the Chinese Civil War.

• Pictures of Y17 Center

• 
• 
• 

2. Party for VIP and sponsors:

It's easy to find a quiet and chic place with a capacity of 40-60 people in Taipei. There are several restaurants around the Shida Night Market with nice atmosphere, for example, Pisces. Some restaurants provide entire-floor reservations, for example, Vinovino. These restaurants are also easy to reach by MRT.

• Pictures of Pisces

• 
• 
• 
• 
• File:Pisces6.JPG

• Pictures of Vinovino

• 
• 

--theodoranian 13:56, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Thank you! Can you move all the pictures/text (layout of the land and party location) into the bid page? And just so you know, you have until the 23rd to work on finalizing things, no need for an answer within five minutes for our questions. But still, I am impressed with your speed! Thank you again. notafish }<';> 16:07, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Done, pictures/texts are been edited to the bidding page.--H.T. Chien / 眼鏡虎 02:58, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

I made two maps, they are added above and the bidding page. --roc (talk) 18:12, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

questions about flights

Hi, I don't want to make you redo all the work of searching for flights, but I notice that you do not include tax & fees in the estimates of flight costs. How much more would this add, generally? Also, what dates were these flights searched for? I am also not familiar with all the abbreviations used; are they all different carriers? thanks, phoebe 22:51, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Hello, Phoebe, thank you for the questions. Here are the answers:

1. We asked travel agencies here regarding taxes and fees (airport tax, fuel surcharges, insurances, etc.), and generally these taxes/fees range in US$50-100(for Asian cities), US$80-$150(for European cities) and US$150-250(for American cities) in total (depending on the actual fuel price and the airlines used).
2. The ticket prices were searched for flights on flexible dates between August 2006 and January 2007. Typical prices for August 2007 are not available yet, but they should be close to (if not lower than) the prices for the winter.
3. The abbreviations are IATA codes for different airlines. We made a table about these IATA codes and the full names of corresponding airlines and put it below the price table as the reference. Thank you again. --theodoranian 05:54, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Accomodation dates

Hi, just to double check -- are at least some of the rooms at the CTOYAC available for dates both before and a little bit after the conference, for those arriving early or staying late? Additionally, are the conference facilities available for a few days before the 3rd? It is likely that Hacking Days (3 days of preconference) would take place before the conference again. thanks for all your prompt replies! phoebe 22:47, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Hi, Phoebe, thanks for your question, here's the answer:

CTOYAC has an ample supply of conference rooms and hotel rooms, and there won't be any problem for extended stay and hacking days. If Taipei is chosen for Wikimania 2007, we will be able to book with CTOYAC, including the extra days for hacking days. --theodoranian 05:43, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

...and weather

What's the weather like in August in Taipei? phoebe 22:51, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Taipei has a subtropical climate. According to recordings in the past 3 years, for August, the monthly average daily mean temperature is ~29 C (~85 F), the daily max is ~33 C (~92 F), and the daily min is ~27 C (~80 F). All indoor spaces (conference halls, rooms, restaurants, dorms, etc.) are air-conditioned, so the weather would not matter much. Thanks.--theodoranian 05:48, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Although no jury, I would like to be bold and ask: how is the humidity? (as dry hot air is less hard as wet hot air) Effeietsanders 11:28, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

According to the statistic of Taiwan Central Weather Bureau, the average relative humidity of Taipei in this August is 71%. Thanks.--theodoranian 15:42, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

According to recordings provided by tutiempo.net, the monthly average relative humidity at Taipei Songshan Airport for this August is 67.6%. Taipei is drier and warmer than many cities in Europe and North America. To help understanding, I put data for some major cities near your area in Europe and America in the table below:

Recordings of weather conditions, August 2006, monthly average

City	ICAO code / Weather station	Temperature, mean	Temperature, max.	Temperature, min.	Relative Humidity
Taipei	RCSS / Songshan Airport	29.5	33.4	26.5	67.6%
Amsterdam	EHAM / Schiphol Airport	16.6	20.9	12	81.3%
London	EGRB / MET Office	17.8	21.7	14.6	64.5%
San Francisco	KSFO / International Airport	16.3	22.4	13	73%
Los Angeles	KLAX / International Airport	21	25.2	18.4	73%
Honolulu	PHNL / International Airport	26.8	30.8	23.8	63.1%

I would like to emphasize that all indoor spaces (including dorms) are air-conditioned. --roc (talk) 20:10, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Community venue

One of the most important parts of Wikimania is community. At Wikimania 2005 in Frankfurt, one the most effective community-oriented features was the shared courtyard that was obviously the place to mix (the Village Pump of sorts), and a dedicated room for folks to "hang out" after hours. Wikimania 2006, unfortunately did not quite recapture this dynamic.

What does your bid do to accommodate a social space? Namely:

1) Is there a communal space that is obvious or could be allocated for this function? And how large is it?

2) Can it be a 24 hour space that people can use at any time of the day or night?

3) Are there any innovative features you can put in this space in addition to Wifi access, like computer terminals for people to use, free flowing coffee, cameras or videoconferencing to bring in Wikipedians from around the world, etc?

Thanks very much. -- Fuzheado 04:22, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the questions.

For questions 1 and 2:

There are several places in CTOYAC that can be used as communal spaces for attendees, and wireless Internet will be provided in all areas.

Lobby of the residential building.

The porch is between the Chien Tan Pond (front) and the 3-story education center.

1. Community venue in hotel:

   The residential building has a nice lobby (pictured right and in bidding page), which has about 30 seats and a capacity of more people. The lobby is open 24 hours. There is a convenient store next to it and the store opens between 07:00 and 23:00.

2. Community venue near the conference rooms:

   Pictured right is the education center, and conference rooms are located on the 2nd and 3rd floors. The lobby on ground floor and the open porch by the pond can be used as the community venue. There are about 40 seats in the area. CTOYAC is also considering modifying the area into a coffee bar by the end of 2006. In addition, during sessions when there is no lecture in the function room (with a capacity of over 200), it can be used too. These spaces are open till 22:00.

3. Other spaces in CTOYAC:

   CTOYAC is spacious and scenic, and it offers a well-isolated environment from the busy neighborhood of central north Taipei. It is quite easy to request additional tables and benches outdoors and on the porch for socializing.

For question 3:

Drinks and coffee will be provided free of charge by our sponsors. Teleconferencing is sponsored by Business Next, other A/V or IT services will be provided by Chonghwa Telecom. Meanwhile, we are discussing with some hardware companies to provide free laptop rentals to attendees (Taiwan is world's fourth largest IT producer and there are several domestic name brands for laptops).

Thank you very much. --theodoranian 07:34, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Congratulations!

• Great work on an excellent bid, Taipei team! I'm looking forward to a great Wikimania 2007 in Taipei. Thanks for all the work, see you then! --Evan 01:26, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
• Congratulations. The team has done the hard and precise work. --Bhadani 15:29, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
• Congratulations from me as well; best wishes for a successful Wikimania. Flcelloguy (A note?) 20:28, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Critical question

I tried to check prices of flights to Taipei, and the cheapest flight from Rome according to the most common websites is no less than € 3180 with one change, or € 2120 with 3 changes!!

You cite AZ (it is Alitalia's code) for $866, about 780€ or so. Real price is over 3770 €!

Maybe there will be some discounts, booking just a couple of months before?

Let's check, I will go there in december.

Minimuim fare € 2959 with one change, or € 3000 with 3 changes. Oh, there is a limited offer with KLM... 1300€, last minute limited availability!

Dude, I am asking. Are you joking, making dirty moves or just messing up with maths? --Jollyroger yeah, one of the italian bidders 11:19, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Note. Almost all carriers declare that from now to aug2007, fares may *increase*. Some prices do not include fuel surcharge and extra taxes --Jollyroger 11:25, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, I don't know what your "most common websites" are. The fares you checked out are just too high to believe. We have stated that our flight cost estimations are from http://www.zuji.com.hk , and the results of "ROM to TPE, round trip, in flexible dates" are listed below:

1. For Aug. 2007: please see http://tinyurl.com/ejdv2 (The cheapest three costs are $897 LH, $1111 LH, and $1145 AF.)
2. For Dec. 2006: please see http://tinyurl.com/jw8tn (The cheapest three costs are $698 LH, $783 AZ, and $833 AZ.)

Futhermore, we have clarified that the estimations are not including tax and fees in our answers to the Jury.

We didn't use any dirty moves nor mess up with maths, and we were not joking either.--theodoranian 15:41, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Sorry but in the two links you copypasted above I can't find the search criteria august. Beeing october (most of the prices are referring to departures in october) sort of a lower season prices are of course lower. Using the same site and selecting dates in august the lowest I can find is USD 1350 + taxes and charges. http://tinyurl.com/ouqbk Then, if the price you found for august is USD 897 (?) why did you state USD 698 on the bid? Anyone care to explain? :-) --Civvi 19:30, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

I called directly Alitalia: AZ7680 (2 aug) + AZ7681 (6 aug) = 1076€ + tax (=about 1300€) as of present list price. But fuel surcharge and tax will increase.

Frieda 15:58, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Expedia.com, confirmed by the travel agency I use for my work trips. --Jollyroger 16:02, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

If your employer pays the trip, I am not concerned; If you are paying for yourself, I recommend you to call Alitalia directly (as Frieda has mentioned) or use http://www.zuji.com.hk (as our bidding page and Theodoranian have said). Expedia.com is not popular at all for Asian flights (at least in America; and according to your quote, I bet it would not be popular in Europe, either). Also, we usually book tickets 3 to 6 months in advance for best prices, not a year. I think the bidding page has sufficient information if read carefully (although more details tailored on booking flights from Europe/Americas will be added). If you need further help, you are welcome to ask, but please do not get upset or panic. --roc (talk) 16:39, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Hi, I agree with ROC. I suggest you contact China Airline or EVA Airways directly for they have flights from Italy to Taiwan. Also, I just check Expedia, the price in Expedia is changing very frequently and is usually higher than other travel agencies. I suggest you change the travel agency for lower price. Regards. H.T. Chien / 眼鏡虎 16:50, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

I just checked Yahoo Travel, and the price for the roundtrip from Turin, Italy to Taipei, Taiwan is $1,740 (per adult and 2 stops, tax and fees included).--H.T. Chien / 眼鏡虎 17:02, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Zuji, two random days within 3-6 months (rome-taipei, 3-8 dec). Cheapest flight: KLM. 1380€+taxes=1630€ plus extra. Still way too far from the 800€, and doubtful in buying from a non-UE company (refund policies are more troublesome in case of problems due to different laws).

--Jollyroger 17:28, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Then maybe you can explain why the air travel cost estimation for traveling from Turin to Asia (or vice versa) is €745 (Beijing) and €765 (Dehli) in the Turin bidding page, since you said you are also in the Turin bidding team? If you are saying it's not possible for you to get the price, why you listed them in your bidding page? Thanks.--H.T. Chien / 眼鏡虎 17:36, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

because they were the fares for that cities on expedia.com, tax included, for the cited carriers. Plain and easy. And flight to Bejing is apparently is cheaper than taiwan. It seems that the Finnair flight is no more available, so I will show our second option, Aeroflot, that was about 780€ at the time. As usual, 3-8 aug 2007

Uh-oh, bad news

Not that bad, after all.

BUT...WAIT!!! They are dollar! That means 726€ taxes included!!! Suphakool! I know where I will be in august 2007... Beijing, I am coming!

That's the point: Taiwan is more expensive than Beijing and Delhi, fares shown were actual fares taxes included (and standard luggage insurance when available), and they are almost the same right now if not cheaper. --Jollyroger 18:30, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Jollyroger, you're not funny, if you let me state that. You can express clearly your opinion, and you're invited to do so, without sarcasm and irony. Let's just calm down please, we're all working for the same big great project after all. --Felyx 21:10, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Irony? Is there irony in my words? I don't think so. I am just pointing out major weaknesses in the winning bid. And the interested team is not giving a definitive answer up to now, but is trying to find something wrong in "losers", too. Where is the fun? It is just tragic, IMHO.

Just to be even more dramatic (I do have a talent in plot writing), let's come to business #2...

(see below)

Ghost SponsorShips

When will we know the mysterious sponsors that will give lot of money but wants to remain unknown (let's forget for just a second that a company usually sponsors an event to see his name shown)?

Because, for what I hear, that was the point that brought this bid to victory: the 100.000$ from Mr. Shadow.

A declaration from the sponsor would be great, too, because up to now I have seen only words. Ok, I am not in the board and I am not in the jury, but as far as I remember other bids were supported by active partners who participated in the bid, with names and all that funny stuff.

It seems that I am not so good at maths (and flight planning), so I can't really understand how very large sponsorship and details will be discussed can become 100k dollars.

I am not speaking of facilities or services, what I want to know is: how this economic plan has been set up? Is it reliable and certain? Is this a declaration of intents? Do you have a preliminary arrangement about numbers or is it a guess?

You know, that was taipei's poker, and now I would be glad to see those covered cards if I may ask.

--Jollyroger 22:02, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Hello Jollyroger! The questions you bring up are valid, but could I request that you assume some good faith here? I'm sure the jury considered all of the questions you brought up heavily and perhaps even already know of the sponsor, and I'm sure the bidding team would never deceive us; they've done a lot of work and will release the details at the appropriate time, I'm sure. Thanks! Flcelloguy (A note?) 00:57, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Hello Jollyroger, Thank you for enquiring the sponsorship.

I believe no sponsors like to be called a ghost. The anonymous sponsor not only wants to be courtesy but also makes sure its name only appears after Taipei is chosen. Now, I can proudly tell you the anonymous sponsor which you call Mr. Shadow is http://dotAsia.org/. Please take back the word ghost ship, and apologise for that. If our sponsor is not happy with your sentences, you should take the responsibility of spoiling our sponsorship. By the way, the $100k is not only from one sponsor. As what we said, that is a conservative estimated total.

And thank Flcelloguy's support. That's very sweet.

--Dodd 01:49, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

You are right that a company usually sponsors an event to be seen prominently. However not all companies sponsor an event to be seen prominently at the bidding stage, and this is the case for one of our sponsors, dotasia.org. I have to say that it is very impolite to refer a Wikimania sponsor as "ghost" or "shadow" just because they did not want to have the tentative sponsorship publicized when it was still unsure whether Taipei would be chosen. I agree that this offense warrants an apology.

You will also find yourself wrong if you had read our bidding page more carefully and patiently: the estimation of US$100,000 does not come solely from dotasia.org or any other single sponsor. Currently our largest sponsor is Chonghwa Telecom (listed at the second position on our bidding page), and we are actively seeking for even more sponsorship. We want to emphasis that US$100,000 is only a conservative estimation. We do not want to declare publicly all sponsors and their exact amounts at this stage because that would not help our hard work on bringing even more sponsors (than the current US$100,000), otherwise we would have done so and thanked you for the advice.

The Taipei bidding is backed by the full faith and credit of the bidding team. You are free to disbelieve or dishonor it, but we will continue to do whatever appropriate to bring all a successful and comfortable Wikimania 2007. We welcome inquiries and suggestions, but we apologize that we do not have time to play poker, emotions, or words here. --roc (talk) 03:53, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Disbelieving: yes. Dishonoring: no.

Enquiring:yes. Apologizing: no.

Good faith before yesterday: yes. Good faith after checking some points of the bid myself: strongly shaken.

I feel methods used by *bidders* (not by sponsors) were a little bit... unusual.

Lot of the sponsors were just backed by a "will discuss later", and then we can see a big written number with a big dollar simbol on his side... Again, I say, are they really only an esteem (in that case I would call that "conservative" only if Mr. Rockefeller or the Sultan of Brunei are involved) or a business plan backed by signed preliminary agreements (in that case, congratulations, taiwanese companies are very generous and daring)?

--Jollyroger 07:34, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

+1 month, still waiting hard numbers --Jollyroger 15:44, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

...And It Burns, Burns, Burns The Ring Of Fire...

Hello again! Almost two months are passed, and I really hope wikimania organization is keeping up the good work . I was reading something about Taiwan to prepare myself for the wonders of that city (whoa!! dragon-boat-shaped stations and traffic roundabouts with trees! Amazing!), and I happened to read this. I thought the block was lifted, but apparently that's not true. Check this out

This is strange, because I thought that Wikimedia is a non-governmental organization and a non-profit corporation. Neutrality and openness/transparency are among the key principles and characteristics of Wikimedia, so Wikimania Taipei may become an excellent window for the PRC government to closely study Wikimedia and understand it as a neutral, open, non-governmental, and beneficial project (and they really need to, because the Big Boss of China stated <<I do not know the details about the website you mentioned.>> . But maybe I am wrong or I found that on an unreliable source.

I think this story means I should use my real passport (or the Carlos Simon Bolivar one) instead of my perfectly faked passport with name Chang Lin Zhang. What a shame, this will compromise my visa collection.

Ok, who cares. Who does give a damn for "freedom"? Let's check for more important things, like money. Cheapest flight up to now, on Zuji (I noted that some pages on Zuji contains links to the Doubleclick spyware, so be aware):

Milan-Taiwan

Round-Trip not including ticket taxes and applicable charges

2 stops (Munich+Hong Kong)

Lufthansa-AirDolomiti/Cathay Pacific

USD 1395.00+12.00 → ≠ 866$

Still not cheaper, aren't they? Ok, I will keep on trying to get the ≈900$ price. I am an hopeless dreamer.

P.S. What's the link to the wiki of Wikimania Taipei organization? I registered but can't remember the link

Checked again. Do you think I'm forgetting, don't you?

Today: Milan-Taipei, 2-6 aug: 1 adult = USD 1439.00 + Taxes and Surcharges = USD 254.40 + Service Fees = USD 0.00

Same flight as above, still the cheaper one.

Total: 1693 $. My friend, who is good at maths, says it is almost twice the price you stated.

I thought you said that it would be cheaper if I waited a few months before departure, it seems it went up 250$ ... --Jollyroger 14:55, 7 March 2007 (UTC)