Requests for new languages/Wikipedia Sichuanese Mandarin
| submitted | verification | final decision |
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This proposal has been rejected. This decision was taken by the language committee in accordance with the Language proposal policy based on the discussion on this page. A committee member provided the following comment: No ISO 639-3 code. --MF-W 08:59, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
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- The community needs to develop an active test project; it must remain active until approval (automated statistics, recent changes). It is generally considered active if the analysis lists at least three active, not-grayed-out editors listed in the sections for the previous few months.
- The community needs to complete required MediaWiki interface translations in that language (about localization, translatewiki, check completion).
- The community needs to discuss and complete the settings table below:
| What | Value | Example / Explanation |
|---|
| Proposal | ||
|---|---|---|
| Language code | (SIL, Glottolog) | A valid ISO 639-1 or 639-3 language code, like "fr", "de", "nso", ... |
| Language name | Sichuanese Mandarin | Language name in English |
| Language name | 四川话 | Language name in your language. This will appear in the language list on Special:Preferences, in the interwiki sidebar on other wikis, ... |
| Language Wikidata item | Q2278732 - item has currently the following values:
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Item about the language at Wikidata. It would normally include the Wikimedia language code, name of the language, etc. Please complete at Wikidata if needed. |
| Directionality | no indication | Is the language written from left to right (LTR) or from right to left (RTL)? |
| Links | development wiki project, 四川话基本概况 | Links to previous requests, or references to external websites or documents. |
| Site URL | .wikipedia.org | langcode.wikiproject.org |
| Settings | ||
|---|---|---|
| Project name | 维基百科 | "Wikipedia" in your language |
| Project namespace | usually the same as the project name | |
| Project talk namespace | "Wikipedia talk" (the discussion namespace of the project namespace) | |
| Enable uploads | no | Default is "no". Preferably, files should be uploaded to Commons. If you want, you can enable local file uploading, either by any user ("yes") or by administrators only ("admin").
Notes: (1) This setting can be changed afterwards. The setting can only be "yes" or "admin" at approval if the test creates an Exemption Doctrine Policy (EDP) first. (2) Files on Commons can be used on all Wikis. (3) Uploading fair-use images is not allowed on Commons (more info). (4) Localisation to your language may be insufficient on Commons. |
| Optional settings | ||
| Project logo | This needs to be an SVG image (instructions for logo creation). | |
| Default project timezone | Asia/Chengdu | "Continent/City", e.g. "Europe/Brussels" or "America/Mexico City" (see list of valid timezones) |
| Additional namespaces | For example, a Wikisource would need "Page", "Page talk", "Index", "Index talk", "Author", "Author talk". | |
| Additional settings | Anything else that should be set | |
本项目先已进入维基孵化场，请在此查看。
This project has entered Wikimedia incubator. Here it is.
Arguments in favour (支持者)
edit- Support 支持四川话版本的存在！！虽然它没有ISO-639码！！粤语、吴语、赣语等什么语言版本维基百科上都都有，为什么没有四川话！若说四川话是方言，那难道粤语、吴语、赣语不是方言？强烈要求申请！！！
::According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Chinese_language Sichuanese is dialects but Cantonese, Min and so on aren't.C933103 08:56, 17 August 2011 (UTC)
- Although it hasn't ISO-639 code,I support the existence of Sichuanese Mandarin version.Cantonese, Wuu Chinese and Gan Chinese version are all in Wikipedia, why haven't we got version of Sichuanese Mandarin? Strongly urged to apply!
- 不过，目前最大的问题就是ISO639码的问题，有待大家解决啊！
- The problem is the Sichuanese Mandarin hasn't ISO-639 code. That's a big problem. 坏坏的中华小天鱼 (留言) 11:46, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
- 以上翻译者 The translator of these sentences：Park1996 11:41, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
- Support，四川话也算是独立的语言了，从语法等方面来讲和普通话有很大的差别。
- At least, Sichuanese is a langauage. Its grammer and more are different from Mandarin.Park1996 11:33, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
- Support 四川话是属于明代官话的孑遗，语法方面与现行的「现代汉语」有显著不同，却和四大名著中不少的语法非常相近。现在缺少的就是正式的、书面的四川话表记，创立四川话版本，也是为了恢复这一富有古代白话风格的书面语言，让大家知道四川话并非只是一种口语，并且将之发扬光大，真正的让四川话使用者做到「我手写我口」！
- Sichuanese Mandarin（In fact，I prefer to call it "Sicuanese"）is the relict of the Mandarin of the Ming Dynasty，and its grammar is significantly different from Modern Chinese (Mandarin).But its grammar is similar to the grammar of ancient vernacular.What's lack now is to establish the Sichuan Mandarin version to make Sichuan Mandarin，the ancient style language，more formal. With this，people who speak Sichuan Mandarin will truly achieve the goal —— "Write my language with my hands"！Keepout2010 12:46, 6 August 2011 (UTC)
- Support，Sichuanese does not have an ISO-639 code (Mandarin does), however, I'd like to put some arguments here. The huge internal diversity of "Mandarin" is always ignored by many people intentionally or unintentionally. The divergence between some varieties of Mandarin can be far larger than that of several languages which have their own ISO-639 codes. Sometimes to be a language or a dialect is merely a political game: a branch of Lan-Yin Mandarin used by Dungans is considered as Dungan language and has its ISO-639 code. However, Lan-Yin Mandarin itself does not have that code, ironically.
- Because of the difference of vacabulary and grammer between Sichuanese and the Standard Mandarin, Sichuanese has developed its own written system since Ming Dynasty. What's more, Sichuanese is one of the only three Chinese dialects which has their own special written characters (see Sichuanese Character, and the other two varieties are Cantonese and Wu). And here is an simple example of the grammer difference between Sichuanese and standard Mandarin: standard/你吃饭没有呢？；Sichuanese/你饭吃没有喃？；English/Have you(你) had(吃) dinner(饭)?--本本一世 06:29, 6 August 2011 (UTC)
- Support 四川话尽管被归为官话，但在台湾西南官话和江淮官话一起被认为南方官话以和北方话区别。四川话发音和北方话显著不同，词汇和北方话差异巨大。Szecwanese Wikipedia用汉字书写，可以很好地与中文维基百科区别开来。
- Although Szecwanese is recognized as Mandarin in China, it is separated from Northern Mandarin by Taiwanese professors as South Madarin with Jianghuai Mandarin because of the noticeable difference. Both pronouncing and vocabulary of Szecwanese are totally different from Northern Dialect and the. As Szecwanese Wikipedia is written in Chinese Characters, it presents the distinction easily.
- Support Unlike Siberia or California where most of the inhabitants were recent immigrants to the area for only a few generations, the history of the Sichuan people can be traced back to the Ancient Kingdom of Shu.
- The Sichuanese participants have been applying to SIL International for an ISO-693 Code scm since early last month. They have even created a test version of their language at Sichuan Wikia which now has 106 articles as of this date. They also included a Romanized version to show the differences with standard mandarin. I myself have heard the conversations of a native Sichuanese speakers and its variation from standard mandarin is relatively high - sometimes to the point of near unintelligiblity. Here is a sample video of a Sichuanese speaker. --Jose77 04:46, 30 September 2011 (UTC)
- Support as mis-scm --173.55.239.44 01:13, 7 September 2016 (UTC)
Arguments against (反对者)
edit注意！以下内容全部使用中文书写，若您看不懂中文（呃……当然也包括这条声明啦），请尝试使用Google翻译工具，或向讨论中出现过的中文维基人请求翻译
Attention, following sentences are all write in Chinese! If you can't read Chinese, please try to use Google Translate to translate, or ask any Chinese Wikipedian who appear in this talk to translate.
作为一个四川话讲得比大多属40岁以下的四川人都好得多的老派川话使用者，我旗帜鲜明的表达反对！
⒈维基百科应以业已存在的语言（此处指书面语）写。如今的事实就是，四川话没得“可以服众”甚至是“留传稍广”的书写规範得。请问维基何以敢“自创”书面语，以一套根本不存于世的“书面语”写作？这不应成为维基的行动实例。
⒉料到有人会以粤闽为比。
（1）广州话的书写法并非“维基所创”，广州话的书写法“业已存在”。
（2）闽南话的书写法有权威 中华民国教育部国语推广委员会 作的“台湾闽南语推荐用字”。暂不问其完与美，但“中华民国国语委”这块牌子已经可以担“创用字法”之责。敢问维基本物，你有何权威与权利，敢“自创书面语”“自创用字法”？
3.就算你们“创”出来，也：
（1）难以现面于世。因为大多数四川人并不会访问川版百科，他们会直接访问普通话版。
（2）就算现面于世，也难以取得读者认同。A.四川话内部本身分歧，一个助词“的”，究竟是该用“哩”还是“嘞”还是其他，如何断决？诸如此类。B.创制者本身水平有限。有给读者传达非优四川话观感之虞。C.读者或仅将诸位的劳动成果当成“搞笑”，不会付之严肃的对待。
（3）就算取得读者认同，也难以推广。
⒋同属官话的四川话和普通话，其书面语极为接近，特别是在国语教育已然普及的情况下，就维基的读者而言，根本、断然、绝对不存在看不懂国语版的问题。从功能的角度来讲，实在是重复得了足。徒增维基负担，不利维基的长远发展。 故：
1.维基的多元语言政策是为了“使不同语言人获得平等求知的机会”，而非给某些人突显名粹的机会。也并非是彰显某些人的“兴趣”或“研究成果”。从这个角度来讲，川话版的创立，并不能于“使不同语言人获得平等求知的机会”这个问题上获得展进，反而会使维基负上更重的负担，不利于维基的长远发展，从而不利于“保障不同语言人获得平得之求知机会”于长远。
2.同时我也再将首问反复：维基何以敢以世间并不存在的“书面语”写作？维基何定位而至敢“自创”一门书面语出来？ 此致。
感谢维基提供发声的平台。愿与诸君共商体事。谢。
- 您好，我是四川话维基百科的活跃用户，我想用一些说辞，来表达我的观点：
- 四川话的书面形式其实在很久以前就已经出现了，如《跻春台》、《死水微澜》等。
- 我们就是可以自创用字法啊。现在有很多网络词汇和用字，不都是网友们自创的？
- 是啊，照这样说，闽南语、粤语、吴语的用户也会首先进入普通话版本啊？
- 普通话里有一些词也难定标准。例如：老挝和寮国，都是一个东南亚国家，只是叫法不同罢了。
- 正是因为这样，我们才开辟四川话维基百科这块土地，发展我们的四川话书面语形式嘛！
- 至于您说大家觉得它是搞笑，那么就搞笑吧。搞笑作品也有人创作啊！
- 难以推广？照这样关于四川话的网络小说就没人写咯？
- 照这样说，闽南语和粤语都可以被普通话维基百科版本替代了，现在会说那些方言、又能上网的，都会说普通话。现在看来这样是行不通的。
- 谢谢您的提醒，我们会努力的！ --坏坏的中华小天鱼 (留言) 09:08, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
- 其实我说……如果是这样的话那索性ZHWP也不必存在……既然ZHWP维基人大都懂英文，那索性都跑到ENWP去好啦！不过，以我的大致意思来说，就算是还没有四川话白话文，我们还是可以通过WP的方式让外地人（呃……比如我……）了解四川话，有一定的语言学价值 Park Talk 23:42, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
- 我是一名对语言文字学有少许了解的四川人，我也想借此就您所提出的几个问题一一解释：
- ⒈四川话的书面形式其实在很久以前就已经出现了，也就是“四川话的书写法并非‘维基所创’，四川话的书写法‘业已存在’”，如下面的用户所言，《跻春台》、《死水微澜》等，皆为四川话书面语之例子。
- 2.正是因为目前没有一个相对系统化的四川话书面标记标准，所以说才需要一个规范。况且，目前我们并不是“自创”用字之法，所用的字皆为四川话文字作品、四川话辞书以及网络上表记四川话约定俗成的常见用字，现在我们也并未将其作为强制用字，仅仅做一个整理、推荐，还存在一词多字的情况，但是将来通过广泛征求意见并讨论，有些会有一个确定的用法，有些则会因同义不同音而保留多字用法（如普通话中“的”、“之”）。就以现今维基百科中之赣语版为例，它没有任何管理机构，不具任何官方地位，没有任何所谓的权威性机构来规范它的用字，那么，敢问为何敢有人来“自创”赣语的用字法？
- 3.（1）如此说来，闽南语、粤语、吴语的用户大多数亦会因为不甚了解维基百科，而仅会进入普通话版本，那么这些版本的维基百科岂非资源之浪费？
- （2）A.关于这条，2中已经很明确的说了，最后会在广泛征求意见的情况下，有一个统一的用字。B.关于这点，我们也在不断地改进，诸如一些过于土俗的词汇，业已改为适合书面书写的词汇（例子：冷得很/冷惨了→冰凊，后一个词汇能够用于书面，且亦为四川话本土词汇）。C.请问贵方何以以一人之意而概他人之感？在四川话的讨论论坛上，人们都很自然的用四川话讨论一些学术问题，敢问会有人将此当做“搞笑”吗？而且我相信，任何一个尊重自己母语的人，都不会将自己母语的书面语视为“搞笑”之作。
- （3）贵方所谓“推广”之意，我理解为是让很多四川人都能使用这种书面语。但之前已经强调过，我们所用的文体，皆源自于四川话使用者所撰文字，绝无凭空捏造之处，更不存在难以推广之虞，因为它们已经广泛的存在于人民当中。
- 3.（1）如此说来，闽南语、粤语、吴语的用户大多数亦会因为不甚了解维基百科，而仅会进入普通话版本，那么这些版本的维基百科岂非资源之浪费？
- 4.书面语的问题，我想前文已经说得很明确了，川话所用书面语虽与普通话说不上“千差万别”，但也决不是“十分相近”，就如，况且汉语族中各语言页面并不纯粹是为了给国语有障碍者观看，而为了让更多人使用自己的母语更直接地获得知识，表达思想。若如君所论，各方言页面存在的意义又为何？
- 综上，我也想说：
- 1.“给某些人突显名粹的机会”这个说法，我想这个根本不成立。维基百科只是一个传达知识的平台，不可能只是凭著创立了一个新语言页面就成了“突显名粹”，况且，真正所欲“突显名粹”的人，恐怕不会纠结于此小小的网页，而是去做一些真正的大课题。“使不同语言人获得平等求知的机会”，众所周知，在中国大陆严格的说，并非完全实行了“母语教育”，诸如各种方言几乎不会在义务教育中有正式的教学，四川话使用者也缺乏了相应的书面教育。我们创立四川话版本，就是为了让更多四川人了解自己的语言，虽然对于正式的四川话母语教育仅是杯水车薪，也仍然是在为“使不同语言人获得平等求知的机会”而努力！
- 2.我在此也要再次强调：四川话书面语并非空穴来风，它早已存在，却因无人教授而被忽视，我们所用的书面语，皆会向着规范化靠拢。所以，关于四川话书面语是否系“自创”，我想这个议题已经不复存在了。
- 综上，我也想说：
- 贵方所指出的错误，我们会一一改正，希望批评指正！
- 此致。
- --Keepout2010 (留言) 12:30, 9 August 2011 (UTC)
#Oppose. As indicated from its name, Sichuanese Mandarin, It is just a dialects of Mandarin, but Cantonese are belived as a individual language most of the time (at least to western people) C933103 04:56, 17 August 2011 (UTC)
Other discussion (中立者)
edit- 语言提议方针需要ISO 639-2/3代码。 如果四川话没有ISO 639-2/3代码，我觉得这个维基百科不可以继续。 你们有没有四川话的ISO 639-3提议？ (The language proposal policy requires an ISO 639-2/3 code. If Sichuanese does not have an ISO 639-2/3 code, I think this Wikipedia won't be able to go on [as in, to become a Wikipedia]. Do you have an existing ISO 639-3 proposal?) --Sky Harbor (talk) 06:49, 6 August 2011 (UTC)
- 这点在下正在和keepout2010筹划中，请稍等。这个需要联名签署，请大家在我的讨论页注明，并写上您的用户名和您的用户页网址，谢谢合作。(I'm now trying to apply a ISO 639-3 code with keepout2010, but this may take a while. If you are interested in this application, don't hesitate to contact me. I need your help to carry on a joint signature. --translated by 本本一世) -坏坏的中华小天鱼 (留言) 11:50, 6 August 2011 (UTC)
- There is an existing code for Mandarin which is left unused now. Since standard Mandarin, as a variety of Chinese, took the code for Chinese (zho) to make the standard Mandarin version of wikipedia, I wonder technically if we can start the Sichuanese vision (as a variety of Mandarin) with the code of Mandarin (cmn).
- BTW, How to make a ISO 639-3 proposal?--本本一世 07:48, 6 August 2011 (UTC)
- You may file a request with SIL International. More information on ISO 639-3 can be found here: [1]. --Sky Harbor (talk) 12:04, 6 August 2011 (UTC)
- I don't strongly approve or disapprove for following reasons. Firstly, despite that Szecwanese has a separate speaking and writing system, even original residents in Sichuan may not be capable to use them correctly, especially some special characters; Furthermore, dialects of Szecwanese varie in different regions, and as far as I am concerned, Szecwanese-speaking users in zh.wikipedia come from different areas of Sichuan, there is potential dispute among them in using this language; Another reason for my attitude is that, I have not seen zh-yue or zh-woo wikipedia succeed in both quality and quantity, I am afraid that after the new wikipedia is created, very few users really come to help it grow up. But I would say if it is really created, I will take time to contribute it. AlexHe34 02:21, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
- I partly agree with you. So far as I know, all languages in China exept for standard Mandarin suffers from the lack of standardization and inroduction as you mentioned. And zh-woo or zh-gan is not so successful as expected. But please consider that Sichuanese has one of the most uniform dialects and more speakers (120 million) than any other varieties of Chinese (except for standard Mandarin of course), there could be a chance. P.S. If you are interested in written Sichuanese, I highly recomend you to read Jichuntai (跻春台)Here is its Brief introduction, which is the most distinguished novel in written Sichuanese .--本本一世 07:01, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
- Until the outcome of the ISO 693 application is made known, this proposal is unable to proceed any further and should temporarily be placed on hold. --Jose77 04:46, 30 September 2011 (UTC)
- I partly agree with you. So far as I know, all languages in China exept for standard Mandarin suffers from the lack of standardization and inroduction as you mentioned. And zh-woo or zh-gan is not so successful as expected. But please consider that Sichuanese has one of the most uniform dialects and more speakers (120 million) than any other varieties of Chinese (except for standard Mandarin of course), there could be a chance. P.S. If you are interested in written Sichuanese, I highly recomend you to read Jichuntai (跻春台)Here is its Brief introduction, which is the most distinguished novel in written Sichuanese .--本本一世 07:01, 7 August 2011 (UTC)
- 希望它能不被拒绝吧，支持者跟我一起祈祷！
opinion about the section heading
edit"other discussion" does not necessarily mean no stand. Would it be better to remove/change the Chinese translation for this section heading? C933103 (talk) 19:41, 21 February 2012 (UTC)