Requests for new languages/Wikipedia East Frisian Low Saxon 2
| submitted | verification | final decision |
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This proposal has been rejected. This decision was taken by the language committee in accordance with the Language proposal policy based on the discussion on this page. A committee member provided the following comment: This is a procedural closing. This particular request page was created by an anonymous user, and the proposal and the discussion are full of confusing statements. After discussing with the most active editor of the Incubator, I decided to close this page to allow the creation of a new proposal. This is not the rejection of the language, but only of this specific proposal page. — The preceding unsigned comment was added by Amire80 (talk) 2024-11-19 (UTC)
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- The community needs to develop an active test project; it must remain active until approval (automated statistics, recent changes). It is generally considered active if the analysis lists at least three active, not-grayed-out editors listed in the sections for the previous few months.
- The community needs to complete required MediaWiki interface translations in that language (about localization, translatewiki, check completion).
- The community needs to discuss and complete the settings table below:
| What | Value | Example / Explanation |
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| Proposal | ||
|---|---|---|
| Language code | frs (SIL, Glottolog) | A valid ISO 639-1 or 639-3 language code, like "fr", "de", "nso", ... |
| Language name | East Frisian Low Saxon | Language name in English |
| Language name | Oostfräisk | Language name in your language. This will appear in the language list on Special:Preferences, in the interwiki sidebar on other wikis, ... |
| Language Wikidata item | Q149208 - item has currently the following values:
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Item about the language at Wikidata. It would normally include the Wikimedia language code, name of the language, etc. Please complete at Wikidata if needed. |
| Directionality | LTR | Is the language written from left to right (LTR) or from right to left (RTL)? |
| Site URL | frs.wikipedia.org | langcode.wikiproject.org |
| Settings | ||
|---|---|---|
| Project name | Wikipedy | "Wikipedia" in your language |
| Project namespace | usually the same as the project name | |
| Project talk namespace | "Wikipedia talk" (the discussion namespace of the project namespace) | |
| Enable uploads | no | Default is "no". Preferably, files should be uploaded to Commons. If you want, you can enable local file uploading, either by any user ("yes") or by administrators only ("admin").
Notes: (1) This setting can be changed afterwards. The setting can only be "yes" or "admin" at approval if the test creates an Exemption Doctrine Policy (EDP) first. (2) Files on Commons can be used on all Wikis. (3) Uploading fair-use images is not allowed on Commons (more info). (4) Localisation to your language may be insufficient on Commons. |
| Optional settings | ||
| Project logo | This needs to be an SVG image (instructions for logo creation). | |
| Default project timezone | Europe/Amsterdam | "Continent/City", e.g. "Europe/Brussels" or "America/Mexico City" (see list of valid timezones) |
| Additional namespaces | For example, a Wikisource would need "Page", "Page talk", "Index", "Index talk", "Author", "Author talk". | |
| Additional settings | Anything else that should be set | |
Proposal
editEast Frisian is an offshoot of Old Frisian and distinct from West Frisian. Today it is only spoken by some 2,000 people in the German community of Saterland. Not to be confused with Ostfriesland Low Saxon, which is often referred to as Ostfriesisch.
I've heard that someone will oppose me because "fywiki/ndswiki/nds-nlwiki allow us to contribute", well, this really isn't true. Even an article in North Frisian on North Frisian had to be translated into West Frisian. Probably the same policy would be held towards us. They only accept Standard West Frisian. It must be stressed that the three main variants are NOT mutually intelligible.
The East-Frisian language is a standardized language with it’s own spelling, dictionary and detailed grammar book. There is a living East-Frisian literature in which standard East-Frisian is used. The East-Frisian standard language is taught in schools. Not just as a school subject, but also in immersion schools. When East-Frisian is used in Low German language projects (like Wikipedia), it’s grammar and words are changed artificially in order to transform it into a Low German dialect. The Frisians are a recognized ethnic minority in Germany and The Netherlands. The name of the language (Low German/Niederdeutsch/Plattdeutsch) is historically wrong. The Frisians are neither German (Germany) nor Dutch (The Netherlands). They are an indigenous people living in two states. The term used in East Frisia is "Oostfreeske Taal" or "Oostfreeske Platt" while "Oostfreeske Platt" means "East Frisian wich is easy to understand" in East Frisian. The origin of the East-Frisian language is Frisian (like West-Frisian, Sater-Frisian and North-Frisian). The originally Frisian was mixed with German and Low German, still, East-Frisian remained it’s a huge part of it’s Frisian character. We want a modern East-Frisian language in which new words can be embedded. We want our language to remain Frisian and be more Frisian in the future.
There is a Bült an Verscheelen. Only all that freesque Substratum. I come from Declarations where neither a Bült freeske Words are made. After meen Meenen, the East Frisian Language is a Language for sük un brukt a one Wikipedia because w as freesen disse become for us Kinner bibehollen können. We received from the Jungfreeske Meenskupp in the Künn that an Eastfrench Wikipedia d'rher should not be used, because we do not want us to speak either. Mi as Minsk fits that I am so up a Wikipedia writer w'r alls verdüütsk. Only all the Be.
Asasimple example: where an East Frisian is called in your Standartplatt:
Oostfreesk -> Oostfreesch Leegsassen -> Lower Saxony Reve -> Warktüüch Tuun -> garden World ->
I could just make it all over again. We don't want to become industrious. That gives such a bunch of words the fresher bundle to the halls just in this East Frisian Wikipedia middle ground. I still do not want to be a young Keerl from now 21 Johr and I see where these are becoming more and more memorable as young Lüü from East Frisia seek with the NDS Wikipedia to bring some of this standard platform. Spietelkerwies makes this our whole language piece!--223.104.7.138 11:02, 9 February 2020 (UTC)
Discussion
editCurrently incubator:Wp/frs looks like the @Neronno:'s perfect, but also a little from @Xorasan and Kening Aldgilles:, if there are reasons why the former 2 rejections can be contested, please explain here. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 00:08, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
Comment The former 2 reasons for rejection: 1: This discussion was created before the implementation of the Language proposal policy, and it is incompatible with the policy. Please open a new proposal in the format this page has been converted to (see the instructions). Do not copy discussion wholesale, although you are free to link to it or summarise it (feel free to copy your own comments over). 2: See rule #3 under "Requisites for eligibility" in the Language proposal policy. LangCom believes that this is not a sufficiently different language; between Low German Wikipedia and Dutch Low Saxon Wikipedia this ground is sufficiently covered. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 00:10, 25 March 2020 (UTC)- @Steinbach and Prosfilaes: ^^ --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 07:52, 30 April 2020 (UTC)
- The initial text from IP sounds pretty strange. I corrected the wording for clarity. This is East Frisian Low Saxon language. The language is classified as subbranch of Low German, but has a strong Frisian substrate and has experienced Dutch influence in the past, which means that grammar, vocabulary and, above all, pronunciation differ greatly from Low German. The confusion arises here because speakers often refer to the language as East Frisian or natively Oostfräisk, which of course causes confusion at first glance. However, something similar exists with Westfries or Stadfries, where both are called Frisian, but in fact are subbranches of Dutch with strong Frisian substrate. Neronno (talk) 08:42, 26 October 2024 (UTC)
- renamed. Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 12:45, 26 October 2024 (UTC)
- The request is for East Frisian Low Saxon (language code frs), not Saterland Frisian (stq), the last remaining branch of the otherwise extinct East Frisian language, as Neronno already said. East Frisian Low Saxon still shows influence from the extinct East Frisian language but is not a Frisian language like Saterland Frisian. The proposal text was submitted by someone who has not been actively involved in the Incubator Wiki at https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/frs/Hoovdsiid.
- To me, it seems like this person was trying to harm the Wiki by submitting a confusing request at a time when the Incubator was not yet ready. We are still writing articles for the incubator at this point and therefore still want to wait some time before submitting a request. VanModers (talk) 22:31, 29 October 2024 (UTC)
- renamed. Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 12:45, 26 October 2024 (UTC)
It is a little confusing whether en:East Frisian language is meant with this request or en:East Frisian Low Saxon. en:East Frisian language still has an own Wikipedia: Seelterfräiske Wikipedia. If en:East Frisian Low Saxon is meant the proposed description is wrong, East Frisian in no longer spoken in the region en:East Frisia (Ostfriesland). There East Frisian Low Saxon is spoken since three centuries. And East Frisian Low Saxon is still covered by Low German Wikipedia. --Holder (talk) 09:12, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
- @Holder: Maybe you can read how that user is contributing? e.g. incubator:Wp/frs/Fräiske tóólen? --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 03:23, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
- I think it's en:East Frisian Low Saxon. --Holder (talk) 03:44, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
- Yes, definitely en:East Frisian Low Saxon. --Murma174 (talk) 16:09, 14 August 2020 (UTC)
- I think it's en:East Frisian Low Saxon. --Holder (talk) 03:44, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
Wasnt my idea to request now. I think it is kind of a joke of hoax from the opposite side to damage the test wiki. Could you please stop the request?Neronno (talk) 09:20, 8 June 2020 (UTC) And yes it is en:East Frisian Low Saxon (frs) wich has its own structure, grammar, lexical standard etc. East Frisian as Saterlandic Frisian is stq and already has its own wiki. Neronno (talk) 09:24, 8 June 2020 (UTC) I think Slomox started this request as IP to damage this project, because he is on the opponent side. I think I recognize his orthographie. Is this legit to open a request just to damage a running test? Neronno (talk) 17:50, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
- I got pinged by Neronno mentioning my name. So for the record: I noticed this discussion. This request is a mess from start to end. It's wild. --::Slomox:: >< 18:21, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
- Therefore I Oppose this request, just because it looks hopeless mess, but not oppose the potential differents between East Frisian and other variets of Frisian languages, this means, that the test wiki should continue keeping for at least some years. --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 23:18, 4 July 2020 (UTC)
- @Liuxinyu970226: We should make clear, that frs is NOT a variety of Frisian (fy, stq or frr), but a variety of Low German (nds), although it contains some Frisian relics. The name 'East Frisian' for frs in the proposal is wrong. It should be 'East Frisian Low Saxon' or 'East Frisian Low German' --Murma174 (talk) 16:02, 14 August 2020 (UTC)
As @Holder: mentioned above: East Frisian Low Saxon (frs) is covered by Low German Wikipedia (nds). If the frs speakers want their own branch, why not as part of nds? There are other vital WPs covering different dialects like frr: or als:. These could work as a paradigm for nds. --Murma174 (talk) 16:02, 14 August 2020 (UTC)
I see another problem, as the test wiki https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/frs/H%C5%8Dwds%C4%ABd does not use the (more or less) official orthography by: https://www.platt-wb.de/platt-hoch/?term=Oostfreesk --Murma174 (talk) 17:27, 14 August 2020 (UTC)
Support. Wikipedia in East Frisian dialect of Low German has the same right to exist as other Wikipedias in dialects. --Danvintius Bookix (talk) 13:53, 13 March 2022 (UTC)
- Interesting situation, [1] suggested that Dutch Low Saxon nds-nl (Not Low German nds) Wikipedia already has some contents in EFLS, but in Sass orthography, different from Wp/frs test Wikipedia where that uses Weigelt orthography, different orthographies go to different wikis, iso639-3:frs only says "Eastern Frisian" which probably is the reason why original anonymous created as "East Frisian 3" and gave lots of confusion rationale on Proposal section above. Ethnologue's [2] said "200,000 (2015 A. Remmers). No monolinguals." "7 (Shifting)." "Adults only. All shifting to Standard German [deu]. Used as L2 by Saterfriesisch [stq].", so far there should potentially have 3 ways to handle:
- Mark this renamed RFL as eligible, and only continue contributing Wp/frs in Weigelt, other possible orthographies should go to either nds-nl or Saterland Frisian stq Wikipedia
- Reject this RFL without prejudice re-submit 3rd request, to re-shuffle orthographies handling.
- Reject with prejudice, so every orthographies of frs be merged to nds-nlwiki or stqwiki
- (Sadly, with lack of mutually intelligiblity possible to standard German, or standard Dutch, merge with de/nl wikis aren't good ways) Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 11:06, 13 November 2024 (UTC)