Grants talk:Project/Rapid/Mozart and Chopin in Ukrainian

Audio and video on Commons

Hi @A1: and thank you for your proposal. Could you please specify the following:

• Your proposal states that we could prepare audio and video and upload them to wikimedia commons. Are you definitely planning to upload them or is this just a possibility? If you will, could you please specify the expected duration?
• Are you planning to upload audio and video from the final performance or from rehearsals? The experience of previous WMUA concert shows that the quality of sound from rehearsals is usually better (no noice from audience)
• How will you organise getting OTRS-compatible permissions from performers? The concert you organised in 2015 with WMUA funds had a significant issue that one performer explicitly banned publishing any recordings citing poor preparation and insufficient rehearsal and stating that this may harm their reputation (this can be found in 2015 WMUA grant report). How would you prevent this in this case?

I would support this proposal if these points are clarified. Thanks — NickK (talk) 19:00, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

• Yes, I definitely plan to upload this to commons if project will be supported. Duration of Songs by Chopin in total is approximately 60 minutes. Mozart concert is also is expected to be as long as 60-70 minutes, though in this case expected duration of recordings is 40-50 minutes.

  My experience (about 15 years of performances practice) shows that concert performance usually is better than rehearsal in terms of expression and emotional feeling, so concert recording is preferable. Though as I mentioned in submission, "Rehearsal is necessary for preparing an additional audio recording". These recordings also could be used if they appear to be better then concert. Audio editing is also possible.

  I ask additional resources for renting hall for rehearsals. So I will demand a permission from the rehearsal. Several takes could be done if needed as well as audioediting. If concert performance will not be good enough the rehearsal one will be uploaded.

--A1 (talk) 10:01, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for your answers! Looks like having two recordings (from the rehearsal and from the main concert) is a good solution — NickK (talk) 23:57, 24 November 2016 (UTC)

Agree that the proposed solution is good. Thank you! --Ilya (talk) 08:54, 27 December 2016 (UTC)

Concert vs Recording

In my opinion, concert and recording are two different goals, and concert should not be considered as a means to make a recording, and certainly not the best option to make a recording. There are multiple reasons.

1. Most obvious one, audience noise, is not the most critical one, I believe. It is significant, but may be mitigated to some extent by correct placement of recording equipment and arranging of the positioning of musicians and audience in the hall. Of course, only to some extent. This recording was made on a concert (not organized by us, but recorded by us), for instance. But the situation highly depends on the concert hall and on the number of people in the audience.
2. The main disadvantage of a concert, as opposed to a recording session without an audience, is that there's no option of re-recording a certain composition or a certain fragment of a composition. It means the musician has no right to a mistake. And mistakes happen. When recorded in studios, it is often the case that the final result is a product of multiple recording sessions of a single composition. This allows the musician to have more freedom and to be less stressed, because they can correct their mistakes easily.

My opinion about this is the following: if our goal is to increase the number of free classical music recordings, we should concentrate on the most optimal ways to achieve that goal. If there are existing high-quality recordings, we should seek permissions and upload them. If there are no recordings, but the music is performed (for instance in Music Universities), we should go there and record it (as was done in the example I provided above) if we can negotiate permission in advance and if we can reach the musicians/students that are good enough. If the music is not performed (like in the case of the program of the proposed concert), perform it and record in the most optimal conditions - without an audience and with the option of rerecording. Then, one may organize a concert, but not as the primary way of creating recordings.

In this proposal it seems the concert is the main objective, and the recordings are considered as a by-product of that. I would suggest concentrating on the recordings themselves, if this is the goal. --Yury Bulka (talk) 09:25, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

These are not two different goals. These goals are interrelated. On the one hand the concert motivates singers to do their best with learning new pieces. On the other hand a concert promotes an idea of translated vocal music, translated works themselves, and the Wikimedia movement itself (if the concert is supported by Wikimedia). Consider that performancers have no fee for their job. The thankfull audience some photos and publications about the event is the only remuneration for their job. Just recording could be interesting only in case if speaking about professional recording and publishing CD or DVD. Of course in this case we could achieve the best result and a good motivation for performances. This way is good but it demands much more money. --A1 (talk) 16:21, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

Quality of the results

On the previous concert there were some performances of lacking quality (as A1 himself admitted). I've also received some negative feedback from musicians about performance quality of vocal music recordings that we published on a CD a few years ago, regarding recordings by the same musicians that performed on the concert. This is a factor that I think must be taken into account. If we want to make recordings that would be representative, they should be made on a decent professional level. Therefore, I believe, it is better to concentrate not on organizing events ourselves and preparing our own programs form the ground up, but by partnering with other organizations that are already preparing programs, and by cooperating with them. One option is to suggest Ukrainian translations of classical music to performing musicians and concert institutions. --Yury Bulka (talk) 09:25, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

As you possibly know I prefer to prepare programs that nobody does. This is a key interest of the project. To rebirth some content which was not available earlier. To rebirth, revive, promote, share.

Your proposition is good only for well-known repertoire, such as Lysenko`s songs which are widely known in Ukraine and frequently performed. But not in case of translated vocal music. As you possibly know nor Kyiv opera neither Lviv opera do not play operas in Ukrainian translations for the last time. Only the original language. So do in philharmonics. Moreover these translations were not published and remain unknown for our audience. In most cases for our musicians also.

And of course you could try to cooperate with philharmonics. But as far as I know you never succeed in this. In any case thanks for you attempt to demotivate me. --A1 (talk) 16:31, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

Comments from WMF

Hi A1. Thanks for your grant proposal and and engagement in the discussion. We are interested in supporting this project and have a few questions below.

1. As NickK mentioned above, there were challenges with your last grant in terms of quality and receiving permissions from the artists that resulted in a low number of pieces being available on Commons. There are many people involved in projects like these (several musicians, different singers plus people recording audio and video), and you will need permissions from everyone to publish the audio and video. I did not see an answer to his question: "How will you organize getting OTRS-compatible permissions from performers?"
2. Please provide more details under the impact section:
   • One of the goals of the project is to be able to use the outcomes to reach out to more artists, including poets, translators, and musicians to open their publications or recordings under a free license. Do you have specific follow-up projects in mind? It will help us understand the broader impact of funding this one event.
   • Please add specific numbers to your proposed measures of success. For example, how many pieces to be performed, number of total audio/video uploaded to Commons (and length as you've written above), etc.

Please also note that sarcastic language is not appreciated in grants discussions. We understand there is more complexity behind discussions as well as personal relationships and historical context, but we expect everyone to follow the Friendly Space Expectations when discussing grant requests. Thanks, Alex Wang (WMF) (talk) 20:47, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

• The project NickK spoke about was not granted by WMUA. Hall rent as well as score preparing spendings were covered by myself. This is why the number of files in Commons from this concert is low. In return, earlier project supported by WMF brought larger number of audiofiles (see Grants:PEG/WM UA/Free Vocal Music concert/Report). My answer to NickK was to record music during a rehearsal before the concert and take the permission during a rehearsal. This position is mentioned on my submission - "Rehearsal is necessary for preparing an additional audio recording (for the case if the live recording from the concert will not be good enough).". The final decision - which recording is to be uploaded would be made after comparison between concert live recording and rehearsal one.
• Some follow-up projects are mentioned in project page. Particularly these are music from operas translated by Rylski and Lukash. Also I`m thinking about translations ща vocal cycles by Dvořák, Schumann, Schubert... (in same manner as Chopin`s with cooperation with poets). Some files were uploaded from "Chestnut piano competition" and I hope to prolong collaboration with them.
• OK I`ll do it.

  @AWang (WMF): done.

Please accept my apologies for my imperfect English if it could seem sarcastic or smth like that. --A1 (talk) 21:44, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

Hi A1. Thank you for the responses and improving the measures of success in the proposal. We are happy to support the project as long as you can confirm that all recordings will be published under a free licenses and you commit to having all participants sign the appropriate OTRS permissions. Best, Alex Wang (WMF) (talk) 05:24, 18 December 2016 (UTC)

@AWang (WMF):, Yes, I confirm all recordings will be published under a free licenses and OTRS permissions signed by all participants if the project will be supported. --A1 (talk) 21:41, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

Hi A1. Great. We will move forward with approving this proposal. Cheers, Alex Wang (WMF) (talk) 22:32, 19 December 2016 (UTC)

Request for changing end day

Kindly request to continue the term of my grant for a month. Thus to change the end date from 2017-06-01 to 2017-07-01.

The Mozart event is scheduled to June, 18th in the Scientist`s Hall. It was quite difficult to organize it in May as I planned before due to different reasons, but it will be good for June. Now performers are studying Mozart`s music with free Ukrainian translations by Ye.Drobyazko and M.Lukash and they have at least a month to try their best with preparing the program. Both of translations, either Drobiazko ("Nozze di Figaro" and "Die Zauberflöte" ) or M. Lukash ("Don Giovanni") are under free license given by their descendants. So we try do to our best with preparing sheet scores and recordings. So, June,18th is expected as the day of a concert, and then I will need some additional days for uploading materials and preparing a grant reports. Thus, kindly request to change the end date to 2017-07-01. --A1 (talk) 09:55, 15 May 2017 (UTC)

Hello A1. The end date will now be extended until 1 July, which means that your final report will be due on 31 July. Thank you for your thorough request, and please keep us updated! Best, Morgan Jue (WMF) (talk) 18:53, 18 May 2017 (UTC)