Talk:Wikimania 2016 bids/Manila

"We Are Finally Sailing Home". Bid Campaign Poster for Wikimania Manila 2016

Chapter does not support conference

I have been delegated by the Wikimedia Philippines chapter President, Johnny Alegre, to inform the Wikimedia Foundation that 2016 Wikimania bid for Manila is not officially sanctioned by the Philippine chapter. We may perhaps organize an official steering committee to study the feasibility of holding a Wikimania event in our country for the following year, 2017. --Jojit (talk) 02:09, 22 November 2014 (UTC) (WMPH Founding Member)

Hi, Jojit. The Foundation already knows that this effort does not have the official support of the chapter, although we intend to secure chapter support at some point down the road. This is something that the bid team made clear to the Board when they were informed of the bid team's ultimate action vis-à-vis the Board's decision, which the team hopes it will not be the last. In addition, the Board has not yet cleared the idea of a "feasibility committee" for Wikimania 2017, and this is merely an idea expressed by the President with no official backing yet from other trustees to date. --Sky Harbor ^(talk) 05:08, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Having a supporting chapter is not mandatory, of course, especially when the team carries such a big experience from the local chapter; but you may consider it appropriate to update Wikimania 2016 bids/Manila/Self-evaluation where the chapter is mentioned. It would also be good to have a mention somewhere that you're aware you may need to set up an alternative fiscal sponsor. --Nemo 08:33, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

There have been successful Wikimania bids without chapter support before and the WMF and jury clearly think this bid has credibility otherwise they would not have allowed it go forward. Now that this bid has been short-listed, I think it is time for Wikimedia Philippines to get behind it, even if it's just moral support rather than sponsorship. Kicking the issue into the long grass with a steering committee is not a good idea – this is clearly a good year for Wikimania to go back to East Asia and there is only one other credible bid for 2016. That may not be the case for 2017. CT Cooper · talk 16:31, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

Jojit fb, please say more about why the chapter is unable to support this event. Sky Harbor, please say something also. With only two candidates to choose it would be nice if there could be as much community support as possible in Manila. Blue Rasberry (talk) 17:08, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

Hi CT Cooper! Thank you for your kind words of confidence about our bid, these have actually emboldened us to continue the bid when Ellie mentioned it to us. Please allow me to say a few words on this.

Most of the WMPH Board of Trustees actually like the idea of putting up a Wikimania bid for Manila (of which was actually floated in the local Philippine community as far bask as 2007, also by Sky Harbor :) ), but they were hesitant about having it in 2016 for various reasons (including a hesitancy about the chapter being unready to provide support for the project).

We made it clear to the remaining trustees (I say "remaining" because Sky Harbor and I are also trustees) that we have addressed their concerns with solid and reasonable contingency plans on hand; that some of the (Philippine) community concerns they have would have actually been resolved by the time Wikimania would have hit Manila; that we have also secured the support of a number of persons and institutions who will help us organize Wikimania and provide additional help if needed (but can't formally enlist yet as we're still in the middle of the bidding process); and that we in the team can execute the hosting plan, more so given the very generous time table that we will have to organize Wikimania (20 months) as compared to previous hosts (who only had a little over a year to prepare for it), and more so given that we have already organized projects for WMPH that keep scaling year after year. We also made it clear to them that what we are asking is endorsement and support, and that we're not asking them to commit any specific or concrete support such as volunteers from the membership body of WMPH.

Yet, despite these explanations and assurances, the WMPH Board of Trustees ended up not passing our proposal to have them endorse our bid. I will have to disclose, however, that of the nine votes, only 5 voted "no", one abstained, one did not vote (because he was out of the country) and Sky Harbor and I vote "yes". Given how they voted and how they explained their vote (which basically boils down to "good idea, but we're not ready for it"), we understood where we're coming from, especially given the stress and the heat that WMPH and the Board has gone through in implementing its own projects.

But despite the rejection, we in the bidding team have decided that endorsement or no endorsement, we want to push through, more so when Ellie mentioned that the Manila bidding team has a strong chances, and more so with the support that we received from other people and institutions. (We will be publishing those in the coming days, Sky Harbor has the copies of the endorsement letters.) When the question was put to me on the table (this was days before Ellie posted the announcement on wikimania-l and on Meta, too), I told the team that I cannot let these people down not only because they believed that we can do it, these persons and institutions who supported us have also committed to help us (in other words, they want to make it easier for the bid team to organize the event). With these people willing to help us, the only way for the team to go is to forward.

And so we informed Ellie that we will be pursuing the bid and at the same time inform the WMPH Board of Trustees of our commitment to pursue this bid, win or lose, not as members of WMPH, but as members of the local Wikimedia community in the Philippines (of which only very, very few people are members of WMPH). Right now, the current sentiment of the Board is more of "wait and see" (although one trustee even said he regretted having to vote "no"), and I respect their opinion. But endorsement or no endorsement, we are not closing doors on the WMPH Board of Trustees changing its mind adnd endorsing or even supporting us later on, even if they do that *after* the Wikimania Jury awards the hosting rights to Manila (in case the Jury awards it to our team).

My apologies for the rather late e-mail, it is pretty late here in Manila as I write these words. I hope these points address your concerns. Let us know if there is something that is unclear or needs to be addressed. :) --- Titopao (talk) 18:27, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

I will also have to note that User:Jojit fb is no longer a WMPH trustee (he did not seek reelection in the past two elections, if I'm not mistaken), and he was not privy to (what is supposedly) a private discussion among the Board of Trustees. Anything that he said in his comment above were based on what the WMPH President told him, and not from first-hand information that he might have personally obtained during the discussion phase. --- Titopao (talk) 18:30, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for your detailed and swift response. This wouldn't be the first bid to be pushed back a year if it was, though I don't see any great advantages in doing so. 2016 is far enough out to make all necessary preparations, and as you've noted, past hosts have have had only twelve months to prepare. 2017 is a long way away and a lot could happen between now and then. As it stands now, the only real advantage of having it in 2017 appears to be that it isn't an election year, but that problem seems far from insurmountable. I understand that WMPH is not actively opposing Manila playing host to Wikimania in 2016, but I'm sure some will see silence or a clear non-endorsement as being de facto opposition, and that will hurt the bid's chances. Now that the budgeting has been published and this bid has been short-listed, I think WMPH should go give it another look, re-examine their position, and at least privately give clear reasons on what stance they choose to take. CT Cooper · talk 17:39, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

Hello. My name is Eugene and I am the Chairman of the Board of Trustees of WMPH. What Titopao said is basically correct. The Board is not opposed to having Wikimania in Manila, or elsewhere in the Philippines. The Board just feels more comfortable with holding it in 2017 or later with full Chapter support. The Board does recognize however that the Manila 2016 Bid Team is within their rights to push through with the Bid even without Chapter support, morally or concretely. But at the moment, the Chapter is not endorsing the Manila 2016 Bid at present. —seav (talk) 00:09, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

And as per WMPH Board discussions there are several apprehensions raised in the choice of the year. -- User:Namayan (talk) 09:42, 30 November 2014 (UTC)

And what are these apprehensions? If the WMPH Board don't want to make them public, have they at least informed the bid organisers of their concerns? CT Cooper · talk 15:16, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

Board reasons for non-support

Hi CT Cooper, here are some of the reasons I can recall off my head why the Board wasn't confident with endorsing the bid, I'll add more once I go through our discussion thread:

• Election year concern

  With 2016 as the general elections year, security concerns naturally rise during this period and even if the proposed Wikimania calendar is a month or two after the transition to a new government, we can only hope the political situation has stabilized by that time. We may also have to admit that the city may still be very unsightly with campaign posters plastered around the city, and local campaign posters here are unsightly, as a Filipino we would like participants to see the country in a better light.

• Media attention

  Though it's not a Wikimania requirement, as mentioned above since a transition to a new government will take place just before Wikimania is planned to be held, we would miss a great opportunity to corner media attention, which could highlight the local and global movement. Media by that time will be monitoring the first 100 days of the new President.

• Choice of venue

  One of the proponents used discussions in 2007 for the selection of the venue. A lot of things have changed since then, newer venues and facilities have since been built. The Philippine International Convention Center is by Manila Bay, it is scenic, but since Wikimania is calendered well into the monsoon season, we can only hope the area is not inundated with floods which may disrupt the participants to the conference. A typhoon will make matters worse in the area as it has seen storm surges.

• Road infrastructure

  There are several road infrastructures that are scheduled to be finished in 2016 and this will make traffic in Manila a nightmare. -- User:Namayan (talk) 21:39, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

Arbitrary section break to address the Board's points

Hi everyone. To make it clear, the Wikimedia Philippines Board of Trustees' points as summarized by Namayan have been repeatedly refuted by members of the core bid team—in particular Titopao and myself as the issue was deliberated in our discussions with the rest of the Board—and we'd like to basically reiterate our points here in the order they were elaborated above. --Sky Harbor ^(talk) 16:40, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

• Election year

  The event is tentatively scheduled for August 2016, a full three months after the scheduled date of the election (which is May 9, 2016), and well after the swearing-in of the new President, his/her State of the Nation Address (which is why we didn't want to host Wikimania prior to that event), and after significant media coverage of the election would have already wound down and the media looking for other stories to cover. Cleanup operations would have already been mobilized to ensure that major tourist areas would be cleared of any electoral paraphernalia, and we don't expect tourists to be in areas where political campaigining will be at its heaviest (and, consequently, where electoral posters would be plastered all over the place). A Board member brought up the issue of potential unrest as a result of the election; the last time a president’s legitimacy was challenged immediately after his/her ascent to power was in 2001 with EDSA III, and while yes, the 2016 presidential election will be a very charged election, the bid team feels that the risk of political violence as a direct result of someone being elected into office—especially in Metro Manila—is minimal. A similarly charged political environment defined presidential elections in 2004, and yet that didn’t degenerate into violence.

Protests, public disorder, riots etc. are always a risk when holding events in cities. The 2011 England riots (which made several English cities, including London, no go areas for up to a week) occurring during Wikimania 2011, the ongoing protests in Hong Kong, and recent disturbances in Mexico City show that well. As long as such situations are appropriately planned for, it shouldn't be much of an issue. CT Cooper · talk 18:05, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

• Media attention

  As mentioned earlier, significant media coverage of the election would have already wound down by August 2016, with the media looking for other stories to cover. We have media contacts that we can tap in order to ensure that Wikimania receives adequate press coverage, and preparations to ensure coverage don't necessarily have to begin in 2016, when the election is in full swing. In addition, given Wikipedia's status in the Philippines (it's the country's seventh-most visited website) and how they've covered Wikipedia on numerous occasions, we believe that media outlets would naturally be interested in covering something like Wikimania despite needing to cover other stories as well.

- I'm pretty bemused with the fixation that local media won't cover an event like Wikimania because of elections. Is getting local media attention really the whole essence of holding Wikimania, and all the previous ones? Is that the "great" opportunity we're really missing? Hasn't the greater Wikimedia community already know of the importance of such event?

That said, I have good friends and very strong linkages to the two biggest media outlets in the country (plus one state TV), and we could easily tap into them to cover this event. My best friend is a cameraman for TV Patrol, duh! :) -Joelaldor (talk) 23:14, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

I too find it difficult to believe that media won't have moved on by August. Wikimania won't make front page news, but journalists on-site during the conference should result in something being reported. CT Cooper · talk 18:05, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

• Choice of venue

  The above misrepresents the bid team's use of previous discussions from years past in its decision to come up with the venue in question, as we used them to prove that Wikimania has been a perennial topic in the Filipino Wikimedia community. A lot has changed since then, yes, but not necessarily in the choice of city and venue. Unfortunately, data shows that the majority of Wikipedia editors are within 150 km of Metro Manila, and while we'd love to have Wikimania in another Philippine city (one member of the Board raised that it should be in Cebu City instead), the fact that there are few editors in those areas means that it's only in Manila where a Wikimania would be logistically feasible. Given Wikimania's conference format and the projected number of attendees, only two venues are feasible (the other is the SMX Convention Center further south), and we ultimately chose the PICC on its projected strengths relative to its location and facilities. In addition, the bid team has indicated that contingency plans will be put in place should the conference be affected by typhoons: these include securing alternate indoor venues for outdoor events, ensuring that Wikimaniacs are housed in hotels that are as close to the venue as possible, and consulting with historical data and the Philippine Atmospheric, Geophysical and Astronomical Services Administration (PAGASA) to set the final date for the conference and to advise us of any potential weather disturbances.

• Road infrastructure

  A Board member brought up that there are two major road projects currently being implemented in Metro Manila. Phase 2 of the NAIA Expressway, which will connect the airport to the Metro Manila Skyway, is scheduled for completion in 2015, well before Wikimania 2016 takes place. Phase 3 of the Metro Manila Skyway, which will connect it to the North Luzon Expressway, is also scheduled for completion in 2015, though even if construction takes place during the conference (some estimates put it at as late as 2017 or 2018), construction will be in areas that are far away from the venue, and are not normally visited by tourists. The immediate area of the conference will not be affected by the construction of either project, and we believe that the issue of road infrastructure will be a minor inconvenience relative to the positive results the bid team hopes to deliver for the organization should Manila win the right to host Wikimania 2016.

I'm not in a position to comment on the details but if Manila is like any typical city, the traffic is always a nightmare, and there will always be road works of some sort somewhere. From my experience very few Wikimedians get to Wikimania by car or taxi – rail or bus is usually preferred with the lower costs. Manila does appear to have an extensive rail network, though I don't know how much it can/will be utilised by participants. CT Cooper · talk 18:05, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

National Museum as one of the venues

Hi Jojit fb, at Wikimania 2016 bids/Manila/Venue it is stated that "Subject to approval by the administration of the National Museum, we should be able to secure the venue for free as the National Museum allows offers use of their facilities for free to non-governmental organizations, of which Wikimedia Philippines is one, for educational purposes." Do you know / Can you forsee if this is affected by the decision of the chapter to not back the proposal? Thanks! Cheers, — Pajz (talk) 01:31, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

Hi Pajz, according to the National Museum website, it is correct that NGOs (non-governmental organizations) can use their facilities for free. I don't know if groups that have no formal organization (meaning not registered with the SEC) can use their facilities with either for a fee or for free. That information is not clearly stated on their website but if the National Museum only allow groups who are SEC-registered organizations/corporations then the Wikimania Manila bid team who has no chapter backing will have a problem in securing the National Museum as one of the venue for Wikimania. --Jojit (talk) 04:37, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

Hi, Pajz. The situation is currently bound to change as the nomination process unfolds, but we hope that if Manila wins the bid, the chapter will ultimately lend its support to Wikimania 2016. Given the support that we've managed to receive from both community members and organizations, the bid team believes that we are in a good position to appeal the decision of the Board of Trustees, and we hope they will listen to them.. However, in the event that we are unable to secure chapter support, we will exhaust all possible options; the Tourism Promotions Board for one has expressed its willingness to help us secure the venues we've selected should we manage to win. (Also, I think I'm in a better position than Jojit to determine whether or not the venue can be secured; he's not part of the bid team, let alone the Board, and I don't think he can say with any authority whether or not we're capable of executing the project as we've planned.) --Sky Harbor ^(talk) 12:47, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

Sky Harbor, for the record, I didn't say that the bid team is not capable of executing the project and you cannot secure the said venue. Please read my comment carefully. I just answered the question because it is directed to me. So, not being part of the Board or the bid team is irrelevant. --Jojit (talk) 09:48, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

I cannot imagine a situation in which Manila won the right to host Wikimania 2016 but WMPH still refused to give the conference even moral backing, particularly having been told in this thread that WMPH isn't opposing the bid, they're just not supporting it. Regardless, I think the bid team are right if they don't see this as a major issue – if WMPH didn't fulfil its obligations, there are plenty of other people and organisations that can step in, including other chapters and the WMF, whose support would surely count for something? CT Cooper · talk 15:28, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

We serve the greater Wikimedia community out there, and not just within our chapter. If they do not support us, so be it, and we'll have to deal with it. But we'll still push thru, and we'll get all the support we can get from everywhere else. We are confident that even without the Chapter's support we can still deliver a very meaningful Wikimania with a greater impact for the developing world. Thank you CT Cooper for your support. -Joelaldor (talk) 01:12, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

You're welcome. CT Cooper · talk 23:30, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

I see. Thanks for the answers and good luck with your bid! — Pajz (talk) 11:15, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

Hi Joelaldor, this section should be at the bottom as per this guideline. Yes, that's a Wikipedia guideline but it generally applies here and to the other projects of Wikimedia. As for a Wikipedian like me, this is relevant. We are used to this and generally we consider the bottom section of the talk page as the new discussion thread. You rarely see new discussions being moved from the bottom of the page to the top of the page on any Wikimedia online projects. I think Sky Harbor and Titopao would agree to this as they are veteran Wikipedians. We usually also discuss things first before doing something (i.e. moving pages, moving sections) if there are conflicts. ---Jojit (talk) 04:17, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

Hi, Jojit. I was able to convince Joel to revert to the original order, given that you have a point. Thanks for pointing that out, and I hope everyone else will stick to the existing order from here on out. :) --Sky Harbor ^(talk) 08:17, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

Weather concerns

Hi and thank you for a nice Wikimania bid!

I am a bit worried about weather in Manila in August. As I can see from Wikipedia and other sources, August is the most rainy month in the year with 19 rainy days and 486 mm of precipitation (which is huge compared to, say, London's annual 601 mm, especially given London's reputation as a rainy city).

What is worse is that floods seem to be quite common in Metro Manila in August. 2012 floods (1-8 August) even have an article on Wikipedia, and research on Google gives that there were also floods in August 2013 (around 20 August) and August 2014 (4 August and 26 August).

While having Wikimania during a flood might be a really new experience, closed roads and even cancelled flights are not so great... Thus I have several questions:

• How long in advance can your partners from PAGASA forecast such floods?
• If such heavy rains cannot be forecasted in advance (at least a few months, before participants book their tickets), maybe it will make sense to move Wikimania to a period with a better weather, e.g. June?
• Do you have a reserve plan in case of heavy rains for outdoor events? Chances of rain seem to be high (19 rainy days out of 31, thus over 60%), thus it would be great if you will have arrangements with both indoor and outdoor venues in advance.
• According to airline reports, in August 2013 during two days almost all flights were cancelled in Manila. Is this something likely to happen again, and if yes, will you be able to provide assistance (e.g. extending hotel booking, rebooking flights, arranging departures and arrivals from other airports)?
• News also report that roads are often closed during heavy rains. As far as I can see the venue is located on the edge of the sea, and Roxas Boulevard is a road along the sea. Are those areas affected by the floods? If yes, are the venue and hotels (especially those that are reasonably priced, as they will be the first choice of Wikipedians) adequately protected against the floods?

I am sorry if my concerns are exaggerated, but news reports for Augusts 2012—2014 are not very convincing, thus I would like to be sure that Wikimania will not be at risk due to bad weather (especially as those cases are often not covered by insurance) — NickK (talk) 18:50, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

@Sky Harbor: @Joelaldor: @Sapphirewhirlwind: @Titopao:, is it possible to get any information on this? — NickK (talk) 15:03, 23 December 2014 (UTC)