Proposals for closing projects/Closure of Northern Luri Wikipedia

Tracked in Phabricator:
Task T272041

This is a proposal for closing and/or deleting a wiki hosted by the Wikimedia Foundation. It is subject to the current closing projects policy.

The proposal is accepted and the proposed actions should be taken.

A Language Committee member provided the following comment:
It has been ascertained that the content of lrc.wikipedia.org is not actually written in an understandable form of Northern Luri (lrc). It is more of an attempt to present a "pure" form of the language without Persian or Arabic loanwords, which then uses Kurdish loanwords instead and results in something like a hybrid of (Northern) Luri, Laki, and Kurdi (written with the Kurdish alphabet). Since this is a complete invention by User:Mogoeilor (and maybe some others), the wiki is incomprehensible to the general public.
This is the result of consultations with linguists and native speakers. While several times during the discussions about this proposal some "experts" sent some – sometimes very unprofessional – mails to the Language Committee, saying that this project was totally legitimate and real, none of them could be confirmed to be real linguists working on Northern Luri or to even be real persons.
According to the closing projects policy, I have therefore recommended the closure of this wiki, which has received no objections from other members of the Language Committee. "The decision will be implemented one week after giving notice unless members of the Board, which has final authority, wish to take the matter up." --MF-W 21:18, 5 January 2021 (UTC) Since there has been no adverse reaction from the Board, the decision is implemented and the wiki will be closed and the content deleted. Users are welcome to create Northern Luri content that is understandable to Northern Luri speakers in Incubator. --MF-W 15:21, 14 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Type: 2 (non-routine proposal)
Proposed outcome: closure
Proposed action regarding the content: delete all (content) pages
Notice on the project: w:lrc:Special:Diff/135881
Informed Group(s): Iranian Wikimedians User Group: Special:Diff/20486442

Proposal rationale

Several years ago, a couple of native speakers of w:Northern Luri contacted me and said that content of https://lrc.wikipedia.org is unreadable and incomprehensible to them. I independently asked several other native speakers and they also confirmed that they can't understand nor read the wiki. I reported it to langcom but it was dismissed on the grounds that a non-native professor in Canada approved this script (langcom can shed light on this). So I sorta gave up but after what happened with scowiki, I remembered this again and I'm afraid of another PR disaster. So I asked in my twitter. The tweet reached 10000 people. The responses I got are overwhelmingly saying:

The script is unreadable [1] [2] [3] (and many more)
It's not understandable [4] (This one says only understood two words) [5] [6]
Several people mentioned that it's using all sorts of invented words, like words for "west" and "east" [7].

As I said, I have asked this independently from native speakers in person too and they all said they can't understand it. Strangely, some Kurdish people who don't speak Luri at all said they actually understand it pretty well and it's using Kurdish script it seems [8]. Given that I don't think we have the capacity to fix the wiki, I think this wiki should be closed. Amir (talk) 10:44, 27 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Ladsgroup: While not mandatory, I think it's better to also inform the Iranian Wikimedians User Group (list on the header), the user group that is closely involved? --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 21:32, 27 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Do the members of the Iranian Wikimedians User Group understand their mother tongue Larya and Lori? Thank you.Also @Mardetanha: ^^ --Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 21:33, 27 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Done, posted on its talk page Amir (talk) 22:25, 27 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Dear Liuxinyu970226 Do the members of the Iranian Wikimedians User Group understand the luri? and whether their mother tongue is Luri? Thank youlrc lori (talk) 03:00, 28 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I have asked couple of friends to take a look and they didn't understand it also. Mardetanha ^talk 14:35, 29 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Mardetanha ^talk Many people whose mother language is Luri and are literate have said that they can read this wiki texts please allow the lrc wikipedia users that their mother language is luri to decide on this wiki.Kikumoron (talk) 17:17, 29 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

only If it was real, you know Luri and farsi are very much close to each other, it is not like we as native Farsi speaker couldn't understand it, but this made up language is strange, it could be anything but not Luri Mardetanha ^talk 22:24, 29 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

If you mean luri, which is spoken in the big cities of the regions where Lurs live, yes, you are right, because due to the lack of a strong educational system, it is not possible to teach and read Luri, and the Luri language is leveled towards Persian. And if our criterion is the original Luri that is spoken in the villages and in the nomadic areas, it will not be understandable for a non-lurish person. I ask you to pay attention to these videos[[9]], [[10]] ,[[11]] and translate them. Thank youKikumoron (talk) 15:30, 30 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Well, that's not true. For simple reasons: 1- There are obviously original invented words everywhere, even the author admitted to inventing them (like words for east and west which I assume nomad people would have had some words for them) 2- Kurdish people (specially ckb-N people) told us that they actually understand the wiki, meaning you basically took loan words from Kurdish and used it instead. Amir (talk) 18:07, 30 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This is quite true, 1-the geographical directions of the east and west of the Lur nomads and villagers are the words of Aftazunon(افتاوزنون) and Aftavneshin(افتاونشین), and the Lur nomads use these words, and these words are completely Luri, and the geographical directions in Kurdish are like this. Is north = باکوور = south =باشوور east = خورهه لات.روژهه لات and west is خورئاوا.روژئاوا and The reasons for using these words for the East and West are not based on personal assumptions but on empirical knowledge and linguistic knowledge :2-luri as like as other iranian languages has a lot in common with other Iranian languages and this is not a reason to borrow from Kurdish or any other language. for example in luri and kurdish The man is called Pia(پیا) and The stone is also called bard(بَرد) and Luri is a continuum between Kurdish and Persian languages The reason why Luri understood by the Kurds is the similarity and closeness of these two languagesKikumoron (talk) 18:41, 30 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Dear all, despite severe attempts to introduce it a simple accent of Persian, Luri is a language family with its special characteristics. The Lurish language has a very short writing history, but it has a very rich and diverse oral literature. There are also some special letters that do not exist in Persian, such as the letter between D and Z, and special L and special R. These features have been well-documented in linguistic studies. In recent years, despite many obstacles, professional efforts have been made to write and publish texts in Lurish language collection, and to allocate its special characteristics that are not included in Persian alphabete is inevitable. It is completely evident, due to the lack of strong social media, and the lack of government support, this effort has not been fully institutionalized. As a result, I think the proposed deletion request is completely irrational and unfair. There are pulished books over this alphabete and in relaion to the other mentioned reason for example about " West" and "East" you can see the following Persian paper in a local magazine: [12]. BestShadegan (talk) 15:34, 2 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The website you mentioned is in Persian Amir (talk) 19:27, 2 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The user is indef blocked in English Wikipedia Amir (talk) 20:28, 2 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

To be blocked in a wikipedia? Is it related to the current proposal and discussion? You have requested blocking of all users that are not in your favourite side in this discussion. Seems suspicious and strange. What are you really seeking for?Shadegan (talk) 19:45, 3 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

For information, Shadegan has been block on en.wp for 24 hour in 2017 for « Edit warring » and then indef in 2019 for « Personal attacks or violations of the harassment policy » (and just after upgraded to « tp access revoked »), with no direct relation with this proposal. Cheers, VIGNERON * ^discut. 06:32, 6 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

Previous Langcom discussion

The mentioned previous langcom discussions from the beginning of 2016 can be found at [13] and [14]. --MF-W 17:42, 27 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Mogoeilor

I'll just note that the main force behind this wiki is obviously User:Mogoeilor, who also claims to be bqi-N, luz-N, lki-5, ckb-5 and is active in some of these wikis in Incubator. I fear those projects like incubator:Wp/bqi and incubator:Wp/luz need to be checked as well, if this is true. --MF-W 17:42, 27 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Dear MF Warburg.

luri lrc is verified with Erik John Anonby and dr Mehdi Moshkriz and Dr Mehdi Moshkirz is native speaker of luri I said this point in [15] please see. and Note that Amir Sarabadani does not understand Luri at all and his mother tongue is not Luri at all And those who claim to have commented on Luri in a Twitter post Apparently most of them are not Luri native speakers and are not active Wikipedia users And whether Mr. Amir Sarabadani is a key member of the Wikimedia Language Committeeː? The calligraphy used to write Wikipedia lrc has a printed tutorial book and several printed texts. and I live in luristan province and I'm native luri speaker.

.best regards.lrc lori (talk) 17:54, 27 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

So all these people are lying? What is their motive? Do you have any idea how they could come to the conclusion that what you are writing is not Northern Luri? --MF-W 18:11, 27 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I said that they are not active in wikipedia and this project is verify with any one who has phd in Linguistics(Dr Mehdi Moshkriz) and he is native luri speaker pleae tell me more what do you mean?(Do you have any idea how they could come to the conclusion that what you are writing is not Northern Luri?)lrc lori (talk) 18:15, 27 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

please see this section [16] Please read the last line of this section and I will translate it for you. This is exactly what user Amir Sarabadani said For more information, read Wikipedia: Coffee house / Miscellaneous / Archive 1. As far as I can, I will prevent the Persian Wikipedia from forking.

lrc lori (talk) 18:37, 27 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

You know that post is from five years ago? I actually don't care anymore :) Amir (talk) 22:27, 27 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

A little bit of clarification about saying "As far as I can, I will prevent the Persian Wikipedia from forking." five years ago. Back then, there was a discussion to have Eastern Persian Wikipedia (The Persian spoken by people in Afghanistan), these two Persians are less different than Canadian French and the mainstream French and I'm against forking wiki of any macro language (whether that be Persian, English, Spanish, etc.), this also goes both ways, I have seen people "cleansing" Persian Wikipedia from Afghan version of words saying "it'll have its own wiki" and I reverted lots of such edits to keep fawiki usable for Afghan people too. Northern Luri has nothing to do with this, I actually support having a wiki that its native speakers would understand. Same for South Azeri (I'm half Azeri). Most of that discussion in that page revolves around the fact that I'm representative of Wikimedia in CLDR and has nothing to do with this discussion or Northern Luri whatsoever (You can translate it in Google Translate if you want to) Amir (talk) 22:47, 27 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Some figures: according to Wikiscan for lrc.wp @Mogoeilor: made 73 k edits, the two next editors @لرسونم: (active in 2016-2017 only) and @Hênāsa: (still active) only made 16 k edits each (the fourth editor being @MF-Warburg: with 12k edit, almost only technical edits outside articles except for importing from Incubator in 2015). The situation is clearly unbalanced, which is never a good sign (it's even one of the main indicator used by the Small wiki audit, see Small wiki audit/Queries/Prolific article creators).

The discussion went in an other way, but I want to clarify the statement « luri lrc is verified with Erik John Anonby ». In the mail (from May 2015, sent in Feb 2016), Erik Anonby actually said « I know Bakhtiari and Southern Luri a lot better than Northern Luri – most of my knowledge of N Luri is lexicon and phonology rather than whole texts. But from looking at several articles, it looks well-enough written to me. There are some quirky orthographic things [...] ». It is a verification but a quite weak verification and pointing some serious problem (see the whole mail for more details) ; that may or may not have been solved or worsen since. A second mail from Erik Anonby (Feb 2016) says « The language written in the N Luri Wikipedia is indeed N Luri, but the orthography is very different than one was there before, and less readable. », so I fear it's gotten worse.

Cheers, VIGNERON * ^discut. 07:20, 6 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

twitter post

The script is readable [17] [18] [19] (and many more)
It's understandable [20]
Several people mentioned that it's using all sorts of invented words, like words for "west" and "east" [21].
invented words are in all alive languages of the world

lrc lori (talk) 20:31, 27 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

All are after I posted this here. Are you dragging people to write it there or you're writing them there? Don't you think it's a little obvious? Amir (talk) 22:23, 27 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Funnily, none of these are available anymore now. --MF-W 22:41, 27 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Amir You started a discussion on Twitter about the comprehensibility of Luri's Wikipedia texts, and all these users whose posts are mentioned are Luri in their mother tongue.lrc lori (talk) 02:56, 28 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The question is simple, did you ask people to write those tweets or not or it's that you whose writing these? Amir (talk) 08:07, 28 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I do not have any Twitter account and I did not invite anyone to respond to your tweet and you yourself called to close Wikipedia luri and wrote in your tweet that retweeting will be more appreciated. Thanks and anyone who makes a public call should wait for a response My answer is very simple and clearǃǃǃǃlrc lori (talk) 13:51, 28 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed action regarding the content

@ Amir, you put "This wiki is unreadable to its native speakers" there, but I suppose you want something like "everything should be deleted"? Are there any hopes of the speakers you mentioned which can't read the wiki to become active (with a new empty wiki or fixing the current one?) --MF-W 17:42, 27 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

User:MF-Warburg: I assume deleting those would be the right thing to do. I can ask them but I doubt it get much (you probably have done outreach too, its hit rate is usually pretty small) Amir (talk) 22:21, 27 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This is a bad manner to propose such an unfair suggestion about a undesirable (for someone) but really existing truth. As I explained above,there is a tendency to suppress or digest all non-Persian elements in Iran. Please have a look to the recent activities by this user. Everything is evident. Please do not let Wikimedia space to be violated by such a narrow-minded activities. BestShadegan (talk) 17:27, 4 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]