Grants talk:Project/Rapid/Kaqchikel Wikiwuj, editathon and leadership/capacity building

I find the costs of running this event a bit high, based on the expected impact. I have seen similar projects that have spanned three countries, included air travel, and with a similar outcome. How can you explain such high costs and its relationship to the impact it would cause? --Maor X (talk) 04:42, 14 May 2018 (UTC)

Hello, thank you for your comments. The project we are asking for founds includes 3 workshops in Guatemala City and 1 editathon also in Guatemala Citi. For those meetings we are inviting people from the Guatemala Highlands were speaks Kaqchikel. Those people will come to Guatemala and will stay for two days, that’s the reason that we are offering scholarships for transportation (partial or total) and room and board scholarships. If you consider there are other alternatives, I will appreciate it. The cost for the entire project (3 workshops + 1 editathon) is 1,943 US$ (aproximatly costs).--Jotzun (talk) 22:19, 14 May 2018 (UTC)

Hola Jotzun, creo que no has respondido a mi pregunta -me gustaría una explicación en respecto a los costos, que los veo muy altos en comparación con Grants en otros países (recientemente vi uno que abarcaba talleres en tres países distintos, con viaje en avión y todo y el costo fue básicamente el mismo, con un impacto mucho mayor) y el impacto que puede tener el proyecto. --Maor X (talk) 19:44, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

Hola MaorX, muchas gracias por tus aportes. Vivo en Guatemala en el área indígena Kaqchikel desde hace 20 años y veo que muchos sectores de la sociedad, especialmente de los pueblos indígenas, han sido excluidos en todas las facetas y por esa razón hemos pensado que este proyecto puede ofrecer la oportunidad para que estos grupos excluidos sean parte del movimiento Wikipedia para así compartir el conocimiento en sus propias lenguas. Pero para eso hay que romper algunas barreras de participación. Una de estas barreras es la distancia física y psicológica de la ciudad capital (transporte deficiente, costos de vida, delincuencia, inseguridad). Por esta razón vemos necesario facilitar el transporte y alojamiento/comida a los participantes ofreciendo becas parciales (i.e. pagar su comida y alojamiento y que ellos paguen su parte de transporte), pero sabemos que no siempre es posible. Y esta es una oportunidad para permitir estos grupos tengan posibilidad de participar sin preocuparse de barreras socio-económicas y así contribuir a la equidad de conocimiento e inclusión. Por esto nos alegramos mucho saber que en la Estrategia de Wikimedia 2030 https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2017/es se reconozcan estas barreras. Para esto queremos hacer una convocatoria abierta para saber quiénes realmente están dispuestos de aportar a este proyecto para saber los costos asociados y así calcular el costo del transporte desde sus ciudades de origen a ciudad de Guatemala. Igualmente te agradecería si pudieras informar sobre esa experiencia que has conocido y que comentas en tu mensaje. Y por último añadir que el objetivo número 1 es crear comunidad, tener un núcleo de generadores de contenidos y editores, que hasta la fecha en Guatemala no lo hay o es muy poco representantivo.--Jotzun (talk) 17:14, 16 May 2018 (UTC)

Hola Jotzun, pero me sigue pareciendo que es una suma muy alta que cuando esperan avanzar 25% en la traducción de la interfaz de MediaWiki a Kaqchikel. Con la cantidad invertida, y la cantidad de personas, podrían perfectamente traducir toda la interfaz, no sólo los mensajes esenciales -te lo digo porque soy miembro del LangCom y toda la traducción de la interfaz al Wayuunaiki la he hecho yo sólo. Necesitan unas metas más ajustadas a la realidad, que se puede conseguir con un espacio cedido por alguna entidad cultural. Te recomiendo que veas otras experiencias de Rapid Grants para que tengas una idea más clara de lo que se espera de un Rapid Grant tanto en gastos como en resultados. Y sobre todo, que haya garantía de continuidad, que hasta ahora no la hay. Maor X (talk) 06:40, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

@Jotzun: "Una de estas barreras es la distancia física y psicológica de la ciudad capital" - Mesmo que esta iniciativa resulte, e tenham interesse em fazer uma comunidade, como é que vão conseguir continuar a editar, depois? --- Darwin ^Ahoy! 10:39, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

@DarwIn: The Editaton will serve to create community, to know us personally, to know other experiences and from there establish mechanisms of follow-up. This can be done no longer in Guatemala, but in the area of Chimaltenango which is where the largest community of speakers of the Kaqchikel language.--Jotzun (talk) 21:30, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

First, my appreciation for this proposal, @Jotzun:. Still working on more languages on Wikipedia is a personal challenge in the movement. But seems high to me and I'm not clear about the relation between the future of the community and the requested funds. My concerns:

• I see very inactive the project in the incubator. What is the idea after the event to retain the editors? What will be the difference having them or not in their previous and future activity? I see a dormant project between 2011 and 2017, what are some of the antecedents of the creation of this Wikipedia the last years and why we think using funds we will have results?
• I'm not really clear what is the role of the funds is, specially because the activity is intended to be inside another event. We will be sponsors of the event? Really we can't get another space for free in the same Centro Cultural de España for the previous and future workshops and save "Room and board scholarships" expenses? In Mexico they are very open to support, I think will be the same in Guatemala.
• I'm a real fan of goodies to the people, it creates identity and motivation, but with people engaged in the activities previously, not just to one time attendees. What about request this same funds for the next event in 2019 when maybe we have retained editors? --ProtoplasmaKid (WM-MX) (talk) 20:06, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

@ProtoplasmaKid: It is true, in the incubator project has been very inactive and this is becouse there is still a large misunderstanding about the potential that has provide contents of Kaqchikel in Wikipedia and also how to edit in Wikipedia. From 2011 there has been much interest in the language and culture on the web, for example there is already Firefox in Kaqchikel https://www.mozilla.org/cak/firefox/new/ translated by Juan Sian, maya Kaqchikel; there is a University Maya Kaqchikel http://www.universidadmayakaqchikel.org/sedes.php whose Director is Antonieta González, maya Kaqchikel. Another thing that there wasn’t on that time was the support from Wikipedians within Guatemala. In 2011, there was interest and support from Mexico, but only virtual support can be reached at some point. Currently we have the support of Creative Commons, the Cultural Center of Spain in Guatemala, DW Akademie, and other organizations. It is true that it is an investment, but at the same time it is an opportunity to summon and gather people who are more motivated.

The editaton will be part of a 2 days bigger event, "National Meeting of Digital Activists in Indigenous languages". These funds will support the kaqchikel speakers to participate in the editaton, but also the benefit to be at the 2-day event. This National Meeting will reach people in every language community of Guatemala, while the editaton will only be for Kaqchikel speakers and people interested in editing articles in Wikipedia. The Cultural Center of Spain in Guatemala is the first time that is involved in a similar project, but they are willing to continue working in this line. If we celebrate an editaton later in this Center and ask people to cover their expenses, most of them will not attend, because they would have to travel from the interior of the region where speaks Kaqchikel, remaining outside of Guatemala City. In terms of the Foundation, of course can be included as a sponsor of both events, the editaton and the National Meeting. But if you know any other ideas of how to mention this support, we thank you can provide it to us.

Considering the result we expect in this event, on 2019 we would have more people interested and more committed, but for that we need to start now and around this 2 days event we believe we will sow the seed to continue with the Kaqchikel project, but also to arouse the interest in other linguistic communities of Guatemala. The Kaqchikel members of this speaking community doesn’t live in Guatemala City except for some isolated cases, most of them live in municipalities and cities of the interior of the country.--Jotzun (talk) 21:32, 18 May 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for your answers but I'm still unclear and my opposition will stay. I don't have any doubt about the value and the potential and the need of a Wikipedia in Kaqchikel. One of my concerns is that no one from "strong" Wikimedia community is involved and my concerns around the dormant project is because usually in some new Wikipedias we need at least three or four high and convinced people writing Wikimedia projects, showing interest and activity to achieve the goal of have a new edition. One of this persons can be you, for an example, but in six years we are still halted on the advances of Wikipedia in Kakchiquel. I have a clear panorama about the organizations you are mentioning, I'm sure we are on the same side but I don't see what is the relation between having them involved and supporting and then convert that in pure Wikimedia collaborations for a future Wikipedia. Despite Mozilla friends are very close to us, in my experience they usually have very clear their own tasks around localization of the browsers and their OS and is rare that they stay as Wikimedians. I was part of two editions of the mentioned meetings in Oaxaca City in 2014 and 2015, and the event was very enriching at least for me, it is really inspiring meet people from my country that are doing much for their language, unfortunately the retention rate for Wikimedia was zero. What about ask Mozilla, CC, the Spanish Agency for the Development, the own Guatemala government or universities to be sponsors of the big portion devoted to transport? ProtoplasmaKid (WM-MX) (talk) 19:08, 21 May 2018 (UTC)

Estimado @ProtoplasmaKid:

Estoy de acuerdo contigo y comparto tus preocupaciones. Solo deseo decirte que he estado siguiendo este proyecto, desde el estudio "Wikipedia en Lenguas Indígenas" y despues como voluntario. El grupo ha tenido varias reuniones, yo he dado dos charlas en línea con el objetivo de crear las capacidades técnicas de los editores pero las cosas no han resultado, hemos tenido muchos contratiempos (internet principalmente). El problema que deseamos resolver es justamente es ese problema técnico que limita a los nativoshablantes poder editar, por lo que si no se hace nada al respecto las cosas seguirán igual, si no hay huevo no hay gallina o egresados con experiencia pero no hay oportunidades de trabajo. Entonces si no hay capacitación de calidad, presencial, verdadera, no habrá editores. Sugiero que debemos apostar a la gestión del conocimiento, es una buena oportunidad de conocer que puede funcionar y no en el caso especifico de solicitudes de grupos indígenas. Los costos me parece que pueden ser evaluados pero si considero que debe haber respaldo a este grupo, se ha avanzado mucho para que a partir de este "no apoyo" (al menos emocional) no nos lleve a una desintegración completa de la iniciativa.

Dear @ProtoplasmaKid

I agree with you and I share your concerns. I just want to tell you that I have been following this project, from the study "Wikipedia in Indigenous Languages" and later as a volunteer. The group has had several meetings, I have given two talks online with the aim of creating the technical capabilities of the editors but things have not worked out, we have had many setbacks (internet mainly). The problem we want to solve is precisely that technical problem that limits native speakers to be able to edit, so if nothing is done about it, things will remain the same. If there is no egg, there is no chicken or experienced graduates but there are no opportunities to job. So if there is no quality, face-to-face, true training, there will be no editors. I suggest that we should bet on knowledge management, it is a good opportunity to know that it can work and not in the specific case of requests from indigenous groups. The costs seem to me to be evaluated but if I consider that there should be support for this group, much progress has been made so that from this "no support" (at least emotional) does not lead to a complete disintegration of the initiative--Zapoteco diiste (talk) 16:55, 25 May 2018 (UTC).

Thank you very much again for your comments on the proposal. It is true that the community Wikimedia in Guatemala is weak and even more if focuses in Kaqchikel language, but I think you have to consider that this is the only language that is making this effort for a few years.

I understand that for Wikimedia to support this proposal you expect to have a group of three or four active editors, but this is like "fish biting the tail", because without support some communities, mostly living outside the urban environment, will not progress. Without some support, there would not be a group of 3-4 Active editors. That’s why it is so important to us that you support this opportunity now. On the other hand, you should consider that Guatemala there is 21 mayan languages of which there are 4 or 5 with a big group of speakers, so during the meeting and in the Editaton participants can discover Wikipedia and then start projects with other linguistic communities.

As mentioned, our work for 5 years it has been very slow, and here so many things work like this. Some reasons are lack of experience of mayan speakers using technology, bad connectivity available on many cities and rural communities, job instability that makes that participants sometimes do not have resources to pay their expenses, etc. In fact, we appreciate very much all the support we received from Wikimedia Mexico in 2010 and 2011 to start this project which we are now continuing and reinforcing.

From that experience, we learned that we need create community and aim that native speakers have the leading role in this type of projects. But the current conditions are very different, we have aroused much interest, there's more committed people, institutions, now we have more and more people, and this proposal is precisely to strengthen this. I don’t know what is the dynamics in other countries and language groups, if they are more active or less, if they are more united or not, if they dominate over the technology or not, that is why I suggest that any ideas you have to improve this proposal and attain our goals, will help us with this.

The relationship that may exist between the institutions which will assist the meeting and which in turn will support the Editaton, and the results and commitment of future Wikipedians is a lot. Guatemala has never done an event of these features, related to Wikipedia, technology and indigenous languages or cyber-activisms. The response of organizations to whom we are presenting the two activities is amazing and every day are running more. Yesterday we had a meeting with the Academy of the Mayan Languages Maya of Guatemala which brings together 22 linguistic communities of Guatemala and they want to be partners for the meeting.

Also, several universities in Guatemala and the United States (University of Maryland and Vanderbilt) will participate from their departments of Linguistics, which extends these events outside the borders of Guatemala. Similarly, DW Academy who has projects in Bolivia, Ecuador and Colombia.

Other organizations such as the Spanish Cooperation will also provide resources for scholarships to people from the highlands (rural areas) who will come to participate in the meeting, but they can’t finance everything so for to the editaton we need specific resources as those who are asking you in this grant proposal. Also there are many other organizations that we not going to give resources because they do not have, but will give all the support in their social networks, networks of institutional contacts, emails, to reach more people from the interior of the country and also from Guatemala City and surrounding area.

You asked at some point about the experts to help during the editaton, there is a group of Wikipedians who we are asking for support, but also to the WikFemHack women who are excited to support this editaton and add more people they know are interested. They have already organized an editaton on other occasions.

Finally, as you know this is the first editaton we do. If you'd like to reactivate this project what things would you do? I have clear that you have much experience in the Wikipedia project and also in this type of events in which we are sure you have participated on many occasions, for this reason I would appreciate if we can give suggestions, ideas, or tell us about other experiences that we can serve to improve our proposal.--Jotzun (talk) 15:37, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

The case for community building

It's great to see such interest in this rapid grant proposal, and I would like to add my two cents to address some of the concerns mentioned.

It's true that building and sustaining a Wikipedia in an indigenous language of Latin America is not easy. However, through my organization Rising Voices we have taken part in a mapping exercise to better understand the challenges and opportunities for these types of projects. While we never want to discourage any community from taking part in the Wikimedia movement by proposing the creation of a free knowledge project in their own native language, we do recognize that there are different contexts for each of 400+ indigenous languages of the region and the conditions are not the same for each.

However, I do feel that the conditions are favorable for the development of the Kaqchikel Wikipedia:

1.) Most importantly, it is a project that a community of Kaqchikel-speakers want. It is not a project imposed from the outside.

2.) There is an emerging tradition of use of the kaqchikel language in new spaces, especially the internet. There have been online dictionaries and localization projects in the language.

3.) There is support from a variety of institutions that have committed to accompanying this process, including the la Colectiva Ciberfeministas Guatemala that have run their own edit-a-thon, as well as non-native speakers.

4.) There is potential for readers of the knowledge created. The Kaqchikel University in the city of Patzún has already express an interest in incorporating the project into their curriculum.

In the end, yes, there are big challenges for the development of projects like Wikiwuj and perhaps the number of articles as a goal isn't particularly high. However, I think this proposed project will work towards facilitating the creation of a community led by native speakers that can build and sustain the project. Of course with any project of this type, it is no guarantee that the project will grow exponentially. However, this is a good option to start the self-sustaining road towards supporting communities like this that have been historically marginalized and whose language and culture have been relegated in society, and a space like the Wikimedia movement is an opportunity to provide meaningful support to this emerging community that want to see knowledge shared their native language.

--Barrioflores (talk) 21:37, 20 June 2018 (UTC)

Approval

Hello Jotzun, first of all thank you for putting forward such a robust grant request. I have taken the time to read through both the endorsements on the proposal page and the indepth discussion here. Thank you to all the community members who have participated and enhanced my knowledge on this community. While I hear the challenges and understand that this might not be the answer to all the questions I do believe that it is a worth while endeavor to undertake. I am approving your grant request and I am eager to learn the results of your project in your grant report. Best regards, WJifar (WMF) (talk) 21:03, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

Request an extension to the project

Hi WJifar We just wanted to update you on the progress of our Rapid Grant project. The edit-a-thon in Guatemala City was a great success and we received even more interest than we originally anticipated! You can see some photos of the event here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/163400603@N04/sets/72157698995467954 We’re working on uploading many of these photos to Commons.

As outlined in the project proposal, we are in the process of organizing a series of follow-up workshops to continue the momentum and facilitate leadership opportunities for those that took part in the activity. However, we see the need to spread these workshops out in order to provide ample time for participants to plan their schedules and for them to work on their articles in between meetings.

We would like to request an extension to the project that is scheduled to end on August 31st. If possible, we would like the official close date to be October 31st. With that new date, we will have the time necessary to plan the remaining activities.

Please let me know if you have any questions, regards --Jotzun (talk) 03:36, 27 August 2018 (UTC)

Approval of extension of project

Hello Jotzun, thank you for updating us on your project. I am approving your request to change the end date of your project to October 31st. Best regards, WJifar (WMF) (talk) 02:23, 19 September 2018 (UTC)

Final report of this rapid grant

Hi Woubzena. As we mentioned in this discusion, we ask to deliver the final report at the of October. You can see it in the proposal. We will be awaiting for any comments you could have. --Jotzun (talk) 13:18, 2 November 2018 (UTC)

Thank you Jotzun!