Grants talk:PEG/WCUG Pakistan/Wiki Loves Monuments Pakistan 2014

Comments

Comments by MADe

A thrustworthy project leader, an established group of volunteers, an active Commons page. Let's do this! You have my support. (why using UK hosting btw, no good hosters in Pakistan?) MADe (talk) 19:21, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. There're many web hosting providers in Pakistan but even though a friend recommended me "pacwebhosting.co.uk" a few years back and I found it quite affordable as well reliable. They allow to host multiple (5) sites under GBP 30. --Saqib (talk) 19:27, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

Comments by Manuel

Dear Rabia and Samar, thanks for this proposal. I think it is well-done and the amount is reasonable. A few comments though:

• Measures of success
  • >2000 images in total with >100 quality images from >20 photographers - that makes 100 images per photographer and 5 quality images each. While I know that the work and quality will not be so evenly distributed I still think that the numbers you are aiming at are quite high. I agree with the 20 photographers, which is a concervative estimation but makes sense when doing such a program for the first time in Pakistan, I just think that it will be very hard to reach the amount of images and I don't want you to let your success be spoilt by such figures.
• Budget - Cash prizes
  • I am not a fan of cash prizes. The amounts are perfectly fine, I have not problem with that but I would be happier if people would get something of a longer lasting value. Often such things can be obtained through sponsorships (eg. a camera vendor sponsoring a good camera). I know that doing such a project the first time it is hard to find sponsors etc. but maybe you can think about if you really just want to give plain money to the winners.
• Budget - Domains and Webhosting
  • please check with the WMF if it is okay for your group to register wikimedia.pk
  • how are you going to make sure these domains and the hosting will last for the coming years, especially who will be the owner of these?
  • you might not be aware but Wikimedia CH is offering free hosting on their server and they might even be happy to cover the domain costs and can provide a proxy ownership as a long-term and trustworthy organisation with a WMF trademark agreement. WMCH did that for many chapters in the past years, many of them who are a registered organisation in the meantime and have their own infrastructure now and took over their domains and webhosting at some point when they saw fit.

--Manuel Schneider^(bla) (+/-) 08:18, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

Reply

1. Measures of success: I do agree that the total number of images is a bit high for first time entry, but we were optimistic we could motivate people to contribute to that level. However, rethinking it, half the amount (1,000) may be more in line with what is achievable. I will change the grant request to reflect this figure.
2. Prizes: At the moment, we are only able to offer cash prizes. However, we are trying to see if we can get other prizes as well to supplement them. Also I feel that people here are more motivated to compete when there is cash involved.Rzafar (talk) 10:16, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

I just wanted to comment that we're not all against cash prizes. I think modest cash prizes can be a great motivator, and this is especially the case if the money can be used to get a stable list of names that will continue to contribute over a few contests (for example, by getting the e-mails of participants and sending them updates on what happens in the community). So - while in the short term cash prizes may seem problematic for some, they are a legitimate marketing technique in my personal view. NLIGuy (talk) 04:08, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

Manuel Schneider. In answer to your comment concerning cash prizes — I would say people in Pakistan prefer cash prizes much more than non-cash prizes because it prompt and motivates them. We're currently in talk with two possible sponsors. They've shown desire to arrange awarding ceremony as well travelling exhibition for WLMP and would probably present some non-cash prizes of low value to top winners but I think they won't be interested to give out prizes of big value such as a camera. As for domain hosting — I've checked with the WMF legal department and they said they can issue us a license to use "Wikimedia" trademark once a domain is registered. Initially I thought of registering a domain name for our UG and take advantage of our hosting package which offers to host multiple sites but I realised we don't really need a website for UG right now so I'll remove the funds for "wikimedia.pk" domain. And that's me who control and take care of our hosting+domain. I ware not aware of whether WMCH offers such free hosting for WM affiliates but thanks for informing us. I'll approach them next year if we may do need a host next time. Thanks! --Saqib (talk) 10:24, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

Quick Questions

It's great to see projects being proposed in new corners of the world, I think this might be the first grant request we've had from Pakistan. Anything that leads to more coverage of your beautiful country is a plus, in my book. Overall, I feel the bottom line budget is reasonable, but a few quick questions:

1. For what purpose is the web hosting? Is this something that could be better handled directly on Commons?
2. Is there any concerns given the security situation in Pakistan? For instance, will the competition be held in troubled areas such as the FATA?
3. What is the meeting in Karachi for? Is this a meeting that the public can attend? Or is it a meeting for team members to conduct internal planning? If the latter, why are you only budgeting for one attendee?

Thanks, and best of luck. Craig Franklin (talk) 09:57, 3 June 2014 (UTC).

Reply

Thanks for raising your concerns Craig.

1. Setting up a dedicated website for local WLM is part of timeline and majority of WLM have their own websites. On the other hand, this is the first time, a Wikimedia-related project is going to held in Pakistan so in order to give it a professional image and to ease us in gaining credibility. I believe having a dedicated website for WLM Pakistan is important and it will very much help us in promoting our national contest.
2. You're right that security situation in Pakistan is quite fragile but I'm not worrying about it too much. After-all, local people will be capturing sites/monuments. Local people knows very well the ground realities and will only participate in the contest keeping in mind the security situation in their areas.
3. The meeting in Karachi will be between WLM Pakistan core-team members only. We'll discuss some important issues regarding the contest as well regarding sponsorships matters. There're total three core-team members (Me, Rabia and Samar). Me and Rabia resides in Karachi but Samar lives in Islamabad and wont be able to attend the meeting without funds as she's a student. Without Samar, I see the meeting incomplete as she's one of the core team members of WLM Pakistan as well agent of WM UG Pakistan and her presence at the meeting is very important for us. We will be joined be a non-Wikimedia, Yasir, who is a award winning professional photographer and is helping us in getting local sponsorship. Yasir is based in Lahore and will be travelling to Karachi on his own expenses to attend the meeting. --Saqib (talk) 10:33, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

Also I don't expect everyone to take their photographs in the coming months. I am sure some of the images would be from stock which people are now making available. I know at least one individual who is planning to contribute in this manner. He is also the head of our jury and we would discuss jury matters with him. Rzafar talk

I guess Saqib has covered everything, just adding to his words;

1. Web hosting is for the official website which will be used for all publicity activities. We are looking for local sponsors in private and government organizations who'd prefer a proper channel and an official email address in our proposal.
2. Security does not seem to be a concern, it is a national event with local participants who understand the environment. But I guess reaching to sites in tribal areas will be an issue and we can only wait to see what will be the response from those areas and how geography and demography will effect the participation.
3. The physical meeting is only for the organizers which is taking place in Karachi (tentatively on 14th June). I will be traveling from Islamabad and for that we have requested for air travel cost and one night stay in a medium-range hotel only. Rest will be covered by the participants themselves. Samar ^Talk 11:01, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

Saqib and Samar, thankyou for your responses, which largely address any concerns that I might have had. I'm still somewhat uneasy with the security situation, but I will take your word for it as residents of Pakistan presumably with a lot more experience than I with the matter. With regards to the meeting in Karachi, have you got a venue sorted out yet? It's been my experience that it can be harder than expected to find a place for free that is suitable for this sort of meeting, so you may want to look into that well in advance. Also, how will you cover expenses for Samar in Karachi (food and drink, travel from the airport to the hotel/venue, etc)? Will this expense be met out of pocket? Craig Franklin (talk) 08:42, 5 June 2014 (UTC).

Hello Craig, pleasure we could able to convince you. I would say to you please stop harshly judging us. Yes, we've problems and Pakistan is suffering but that doesn't makes us the world's most dangerous nation. I will further add here that last year, WLM was held in warn-torn Syria and currently troubled Egypt and Tunisia and all three countries generated good number of photographs then whats wrong with Pakistan? We're not having civil war. Anyways, why don't you come to Pakistan and have a first hand experience? And thats me. I've took the responsibility to pick Samar from the airport and drop her at her hotel after the meeting. The meeting will be in my house and I'll bear the expenses of food. --Saqib (talk) 10:38, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

Adding to the security question, yes we have include FATA in our competition. I believe that if conditions worsen in an area and people are unable to go there, we will just not see photographs uploaded which depict that location. But then again, as I mentioned earlier, people may contribute their stock. From personal experience, I have been to FATA and have some images which I have never released. If I were taking part in WLMP, I could release them now while sitting in the comfort of my home. The ground realities are sometimes different than what is projected via media. Also we have already started publicising the event to enable people to start taking photographs from now so that they have ample time and can taken them at their leisure or when it is safe. Rzafar (talk) 18:51, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

Craig your biggest concern was not even on our list before this :) Anyway, it is a national event and there are many similar competitions, travel exhibitions, tours, TEDx talks, MUNs, national/international conferences, expos etc taking place regularly all across. So I guess that's surprise in Saqib's tone because we never thought this could be an issue :) There are some troubled areas and like I said, we too are waiting to see how geography and local conditions will impact on participation. We are bearing other expenses ourselves and Saqib is hosting us.Samar ^Talk 19:38, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

You seem to have misinterpreted my comment; if you guys don't think it's a problem, I judge you better qualified than I to make that decision based on you living in Pakistan and me not. Otherwise I'm happy with this, although if you want the hosting I would urge you to seriously consider the WMCH offer outlined by Manuel above (and if accepted, amend the grant request page accordingly). Craig Franklin (talk) 11:54, 6 June 2014 (UTC).

Sorry Craig if I misapprehended your comment. I've already purchased web hosting BTW. --Saqib (talk) 12:56, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

Hi, I am quite sure this project is worth supporting, but some minor questions about the budget:

• "Promotion - Advertisement on Facebook and Online advertisement in leading newspaper websites" - Do you beilive that such a low budget advertisement (200 USD for month) is going to produce any effect? How many, and what kind of adds your are about to broadcast, what audience it is about to reach?
• "Gift box delivery charges" - what it is "gift box" - to whom and for what purpouse you are about to deliver it?

Polimerek (talk) 20:23, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

As we mentioned we'll only spend $5 per day on FB. It will generate 25 visitors per day for our website and 750 visitors in total seems fine if not excellent. We will target audience particularly those interested in Wikipedia and photography and are based in Pakistan. We'll run only 1 ad which will briefly tell the audience about WLMP and I guess 150$ for ad campaign on FB seems reasonable to me. $100 for online advertisement in newspaper website is not enough but we want to give it try whether it works or not. We may try to negotiate with the newspaper if they can offer us discount otherwise we're intending to spend $100 on a separate FB campaign which will boost the visibility of our FB page (Likes) rather than driving visitors directly to our website or we'll seek for any other suitable venue that we might find later. Overall $250 a month for online promotion is not enough but keeping in mind, this is our first time, I think the amount is fair and reasonable. We do not want to take risk by asking substantial amount of money specifically for advertisement. As for gift box delivery charges, we've received some merchandise from WMF and we're going to produce some WLM shirts and mugs locally. We'll need funds in order to send those merchandises as gift to our top 10 winners as well to those who're magnanimously helping us in promoting the contest as well to our volunteer jury members. Incase if we couldn't able to arrange an awarding ceremony or if some couldn't able to make their way to the awarding ceremony, this is the only way we can send them our best available appreciations in the form of merchandise. --Saqib (talk) 21:11, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

Promotion: The budget amount mentioned is for additional promotion which we cannot get through partnerships. For a possible partnership, I have approached one of the country's largest English language media groups which operates a newspaper, magazines, radio stations and a television channel and will send them a project brief soon. Additionally, we are planning to approach the country's newspaper association for publicising this event across the country. Rzafar (talk) 04:58, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

Increase participation, WLM style

Hi. Thank you, en:user:Rzafar for this submission, I am in favor of it, and will vote "approve" in a few seconds. I just wanted to address the "number of users" measure, intended to increase participation. I have two suggestions at this point:

1. If you want to increase participation over the long term, I think you want people to not only donate items, but also write short articles about the sites photographed.
   Because of that, I think you may want to convert the 4th and 5th prizes to prizes for a combination of textual and photographic contributions - which means, only users who took photographs of places and then contributed text to an article about the place might be eligible. I can think of several different criteria for this, but leave the details to you. What do you think?
2. I would also urge you to collect e-mails of interested parties (= people coming to the ceremony, or participating in related events or even showing general interest on facebook) - I would use some of the merchandise as a way of getting more contacts (give your e-mail, get a t-shirt) so that you have a list of people you could send your newsletters to, or update next year about the WLM 2015 you'll be doing, etc. I think that if you have a small community, that is a good way to make it slightly bigger. NLIGuy (talk) 04:22, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

Thank you NLIGuy for your suggestions and approval.

1. Regarding submitting photographs and writing articles, I agree that we would like people to do both. However, I don't know if linking a prize with writing articles is the way to go about it especially, if it is only for 2 lower level awards and not for every award level. We can consider changing the rules slightly to include some sort of written contribution to be eligible for all levels of prizes.
2. We will keep a list of everyone who has shown interest and/or are helping us so that they can be kept informed of all our future activities. Regarding merchandise, at the moment, I don't think we have enough to give away in the manner you suggest, but will keep it in mind. Rzafar (talk) 06:42, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

I believe what NLIGuy meant was to remove the 4th and 5th place photo prizes entirely, and replace them with a separate prize for "best photo and text contribution" (or some similar title), funded with that money. I agree it's probably a good idea; it wouldn't take a way from the motivation to produce the best photos for the top places, but would in parallel encourage a slightly different subsection of the competition's audience to create or expand articles they illustrate with their photos. Asaf Bartov (WMF Grants) talk 22:04, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

So we will have three prizes for top images and two for content+images, and removing the 4th and 5th places all together? That can be done. Since there is no such requirement for WLM (content creation/expansion), this is something only WLM Pakistan will be putting forward. We have to see how this will reflect on the event as a photography competition. Samar ^Talk

Hello Asaf and NLIGuy. This is a good idea and we aim to get many new Wikipedians during and after the contest but I'm not in favour or prefer to award cash prizes to only those who along a good quality photo, bring us writing materiel as well. This is a photo contest not a writing contest and I'm afraid this will turn down many potential entries to succeed in 4th and 5th level. --Saqib (talk) 10:02, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Very well. I trust you have a better sense of both the existing community and the general public as potential contributors, and if you think it is likely to have a negative effect on overall participation, you are absolutely free to decide to keep the current structure. Asaf Bartov (WMF Grants) talk 01:42, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

Sure thing, I was just suggesting that. It was just that - a suggestion, and thank you for considering :-) NLIGuy (talk) 07:47, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

Asaf and NLIGuy. Thanks for your understanding. I've been closely watching the conversation you floated on the ML. I'll extract some points from there and will mention here we better present our justifications and why we're not ready to try this proposal this year. Currently Pakistani articles on WP about heritage sites and monuments are of very poor quality so I agree that an average WLM Pakistan participant won't have a better writing skills than an average Wikipedia Pakistani editors have. Then the biggest disadvantage is that this can become too complicated and hard to explain to WLM Pakistan participants especially to those who never contributed to WP before. And then Pakistan is doing WLM for the first time so yes it is not the best place to experiment such a thing which has never tried before even in those countries who participated more than 2 times. WLM in Pakistan for the first time is already an experiment in itself and then writing articles is out of the scope of WLM. I'll suggest here that Germany, France, Sweden and Norway is taking part this year so why not they try this out and lets see how it works? --Saqib (talk) 11:46, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

Cash prizes – small comment

I am also not a big fan of cash prizes, like Manuel. I understand the mentality in Pakistan is other then in Europe, but could you consider for instance a way when the winner will buy a consumer goods from a given area (for example electronics) and you will meet the expenditure?

And only for comparison: what is the average month salary in Pakistan (Karachi)? Thanks --Packa (talk) 15:47, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

Salary is depends on which sector you're talking about. --Saqib (talk) 15:50, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

We can look for other options but again people here much prefer cash prizes. And the salary range is quite wide, it will be hard to find the median or average. For our maiden run, cash prize is convenient for us as well; we don't have to think about warranty, model, shipment, purchasing, etc. Your suggestion can work but for that we will need to have an arrangement with a specific shop/supplier, ensure the prize's cost does not increase the specified amount, consider the geographical aspect (winners can be from different cities), which all could become a mess if not handled properly. Samar ^Talk 17:13, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

Prizes: It would not be easy for us to coordinate with the winner buying consumer goods from a specific store/area since we can't say which city/town s/he would be from. Our markets are still dominated by independent sellers and he may choose to go to one of those sellers and we would not be able to verify if the product's cost is what is stated or not. The price for the same product normally varies amongst sellers.

Salary: The minimum monthly wage in Pakistan from July 2014 will be US$ 100 (Rs. 10,000/-) but this is not applied in every sector. Young professionals (upto 10 years after graduation) in Karachi if not freelancing earn between US$ 100 and US$ 900 per month. Those in the corporate sector however, do earn US$ 1,000 upwards. However, in the last 2 years, living costs have risen very sharply. Rzafar (talk) 18:19, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for answers and thank Rzafar for exact salary data. As about prizes, sorry for my abbreviation: I have thought a variant, when the winner would buy for instance a camera for 30,000 or 40,000 rupee, but he/she would receive (against the bill) only the announced sum of money – Rs 20,000. --Packa (talk) 13:30, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

Karachi meeting

User:MADe, User:NLIGuy and User:Lankiveil. Thanks for approving our grant request. I wanted to inform you that due to some unforeseeable circumstances, Samar won't be able to travel to Karachi so we've decided to cancel the meeting in Karachi. We requested 300$ for her travelling which is not of any use now. --Saqib (talk) 11:26, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

Noted. I'd still encourage you to meet with User:Rzafar in person if possible, it's been my experience that you usually get a lot more done face-to-face than just by swapping emails. This doesn't affect my support for this grant being approved, of course. Craig Franklin (talk) 13:00, 12 June 2014 (UTC).

Everyone else is meeting in Karachi as planned (more than once I believe), they will also be meeting a jury member to discuss in detail the criteria in end June. Only that I cannot join because I'll be traveling abroad. Samar ^Talk 13:05, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Yes Craig Franklin, we're also planning to do a photo walk in Karachi as well in Lahore in August or September. --Saqib (talk) 13:11, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Customs duty on WP merchandise

MADe, NLIGuy, Craig Franklin, Manuel Schneider, Packa, and Polimerek. Thanks again for supporting our grant request. I wanted to inform you all that I further added a request of Rs. 10,964 (111 US$) that Pakistan Customs charged on WP merchandise WMF send to us. I've received the merchandise today and I've paid all the charges to DHL. I've got all the original receipts of payments which include custom duty+DHL handling charges+storage charges and will attach them with our report. --Saqib (talk) 09:53, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Nice! Best of luck to you! NLIGuy (talk) 07:48, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

Comments by Tony1

Hi, looks good, but I haven't properly read it yet.

It's retrospective, starting 1 June. In principle, I'll oppose.

Will you please consider adjusting the start date so that it's not retrospective? I can't see anything in the budget that needs to be spent right now. Grantmaking staff might be able to help on this, but I suppose 1 July might be feasible. When do you really have to start spending from the budget?

If we can sort that out, I'll come back and review. Tony (talk) 11:28, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Well I've already paid for web-hosting+domain+custom duty (mentioned in 12th row). --Saqib (talk) 11:33, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Why is the GAC application so late, then? Tony (talk) 11:38, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

We started the draft last month but we were busy with other things so we submitted it June 2nd. --Saqib (talk) 11:41, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Can you fund that $111 in some other way, please, and remove it from the budget? I'm sorry, but spending and then applying for funding to spend is not due process. Perhaps your chapter can pay? Or you can pay personally. Tony (talk) 11:43, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Well Catilin (Fundraiser Program Associate at WMF) said that they will reimburse me for that and I remember she said me that we can put in our grant request if I recall properly. --Saqib (talk) 11:45, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

I have a big big problem with this. I'm willing to review this (and most things I'll want to say are clarifications and ideas for improvements), but not if money already spent is part of the budget. It's a no-no, in my view. Tony (talk) 11:59, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

You already made your point and opposed. It's okay, everyone understood. --Manuel Schneider^(bla) (+/-) 12:01, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

While I generally agree that Grant requests should be published before spending I see no problem here. It doesn't make any difference in practice. It is basically just a risk to the person who spent the 111 USD that the grant request might be declined. --Manuel Schneider^(bla) (+/-) 11:59, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

It's not a risk if you "see no problem here"—circular argument. Moral hazard. Let's test out that risk by declining, or taking it out of the budget. Otherwise it sends a message to all applicants: hey, spend now, ask later. Why do we bother to review it if it's part-way through, like the cart before the horse. Tony (talk) 12:02, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Hi Tony, this was a gift we received from the Foundation (Wikimedia merchandise), however duty was imposed and to pick the package we had to pay the amount, otherwise it would have stayed with the customs. There was no other option here. We do not have a local chapter, just a recently approved User Group with no funds, so we are covering many costs ourselves; in-city travel to meet potential sponsors, design+printing of material for sponsors, communication costs, meet-up of organizers (I will not be traveling but the team will meet in Karachi with potential jury members etc). It will be very difficult to cover such a large amount (111 USD) personally considering we are all here as volunteers. Samar ^Talk 12:14, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Can we remove the budget line and have the WMF pay for it in a separate budget line of its own, then (not via GAC or on its table). I've drummed on about retrospective applications enough: now I'm not budging. Tony (talk) 12:24, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Sure, let us talk to them. Samar ^Talk 12:28, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Tony, Thank you for raising your concerns about retrospective requests. While we agree that we need to be more stringent about retrospective applications, this grant is an exception. It was agreed that WMF would ship the user group merchandise and retroactively pay for shipping and customs costs. It is not always possible to estimate these costs and they must be paid after shipping. It is most efficient to put these costs into the grant request. Please also remember this is the first time the Pakistani user group is applying for a grant. Alex Wang (WMF) (talk) 19:48, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Alex, rather than using a GAC application as a receptacle for conveniently slipping in costs that may or may not have any relevance to a program in question, please remove the budget line and pay for it out of your department's global budget. I can see no other way. To leave it here undermines the role of GAC members, suggesting that approval of the program is a fait accomplis. Tony (talk) 04:21, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

Btw. I wonder whether the current eligibility requirements for PEG exclude retroactive applications? Anyone can shed some light on this please ? --Saqib (talk) 11:48, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

I would be fine changing the start date to around 18 June since I don't see us using the funds before then. However, everyone here seems to agree that it is ok if we retrospectively add costs for 2 items - web hosting and custom duties. Would it be acceptable then? Rzafar (talk) 14:50, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

There are several odious aspects to this retrospective inclusion. It forces a GAC member who is serious about reviewing, advising, and assessing into an untenable situation:

*if they have programmatic or other reasons to oppose, they have to weight this against some kind of guilt for shifting costs to an individual; this should not be a relevant factor in the assessment—it's stressful and it's unfair to GAC members who are serious about their role to arm-twist like that, and to push them towards a hurried judgement;

*it suggests that staff have already decided to fund the application, in which case GAC's role is largely redundant;

*on top of that, even more directly it means that for parts of a program GAC members' comments, advice, encouragement, suggestions for improvement, or suggestions for budgetary savings are irrelevant, since these would be after the fact (BTW it would be nice to have them identified beforehand—which parts are the joke, and which parts are real. I had to ask specifically to get through the misleading fog; and

*it sends a signal to all prospective applicants that it's just fine to spend money first and apply for funding later.

This makes a mockery of GAC's role, something that the GAC members who don't often lift a finger probably don't care about and are quite prepared to pile on their Supports below to spite me. Now I might be very supportive of this application, but over my dead body at the moment. I haven't even got around to posing queries and making comments about the proposal. And 18 June seems to imply that you're expecting to be waved through; this sense of entitlement goes to the root of the problem: three days we have, before the staff tick the box and off you go. I do resent being treated as a puppet, or a trash can, or both. An outsider might be tempted to think that GAC and the IEG committee and the FDC are just there to add a gloss of volunteer community approval to render politically acceptable what is really centralised WMF decision-making. We know that that is our main role, but I'd like to think there's just a little more than that.

And we're only just gearing up for the war over the Hungarian chapter's recently launched and bizarre retrospective application, which is orders of magnitude more problematic than this one. Tony (talk) 15:37, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

Tony, thanks for removing your oppose vote. I appreciate and I'm looking forward to answer your questions and see your suggestions that you were talking about on my talk page. --Saqib (talk) 15:51, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

I've struck my oppose because it seems churlish to hold this one up over what is, admittedly, a serious issue, but one that is systemic. And unlike the Hungarian application, this involves only a small sum, in rather forgivable circumstances. This does not mean that my view has changed that retrospective claims are totally inappropriate in GAC applications. Here are some comments/queries, many of which are common to those I put to similar proposals:

1. I like fat prizes. My advice is to boost the amount of the first prize, because of its iconic and promotional value, and remove or reduce the amounts for the fourth and fifth prizes.
2. Alternatively, you could turn the fourth and fifth prize into one for best effort at doing the often-neglected behind-the-scenes work in categorising the images once uploaded to Commons, and writing the description pages. (Who will do this, anyway?)
3. Will the description pages be written in English, Urdu, and ?Pashto, is it, the second native language in Pakistan? (BTW, are both languages represented in the user group?)
4. Will you be writing press releases? One for before the comp, and one for the prizes? If you want help, the staff may be of assistance—we really need guidelines, and my attempt in my user space isn't even worth looking at yet.
5. I hate mugs, t-shirts, badges, pins, stickers.
6. Who will be on the jury? Have you published judging criteria? (Maybe there are others you could largely copy ... don't know.)
7. Award ceremony: in a country like Pakistan (geographically and demographically), this will be hard and expensive. I wonder whether you might think creatively about alternatives. And please ensure to collect some interesting bio info about the prize winners (for your press releases). Travelling circus: why not spend the money on more WMF-site-related activities. If one or more of your winners were willing to be videoed answering a few questions on their photographs, that would make a great commons upload. Tony (talk) 16:01, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

I understand your objections Tony. This is our first and next time, I'll be careful when spending in advance.

1. Rs 20,000 is already fat enough. We've only budget of Rs 55,000 for cash prizes. If we increase prize amount for first winner to lets suppose Rs 25,000 or Rs 30,000. We won't have money to give to present to 4th and 5th winner.
2. We're a team of 3 members. Obviously we will take care of behind-the-scenes tasks (on-wiki), after-all, for what else are we for? and we don't need a cash prizes.
3. The user group is representing all the projects of WMF in all the languages of Pakistan but promotional material related to WLM Pakistan will only be released in English language as English is widely used among internet users of Pakistan as compare to Urdu which is less used online.
4. Off-course we will prepare PR. Recently I met few correspondents of a local English newspapers and they will write four news stories for us. One before the contest, one during the contest, one after the contest and one after the results announced. In the mean time, we're also in discussion with another English language media group to become our media partner.

   In brief: write out the background and basic facts, one para, for them. Give them some real quotes (usually these are made up for the purpose of a press release). Perhaps one from you, one from another organiser or photographer. Press releases always have a few quotes from real people. Readers like it. Give them an example of a really good image already on Commons, of the type you expect will be added by this comp. News stories are much better with an image (and caption). Do as much of the writing for them as you can ... more likely to get it published. Try local papers too. Journalists are over-worked, have deadlines. Tony (talk) 16:36, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

   Sure. All suggestions well noted. I know a little how PR works ;) Btw why don't you read this news story about our UG. --Saqib (talk) 16:39, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

5. You hate mugs, t-shirts, badges, pins, stickers but don't forget these promotional merchandise are a cheap and great way to spread the word about WP. It will very much help our winners to keep remember WLM Pakistan and motivate them to keep contributing for many years to come.
6. Yes, we've published judging criteria on our website and Jury will compose of local professional photographers. We're still looking for them and they will be announced in August.
7. We're intending to arrange ceremony (if we get good outcome out of WLMP) in a city where more winners can easily access to and as for finance, our local sponsors will take care of it. Sure, we will try to get bio of winners. That's a good suggestions. As for Travelling exhibition (circus). You gave me a good chuckle btw. Yes, we will see whether we really need it or not. --Saqib (talk) 16:22, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for your comments, Tony, and for recognizing that this is a larger issue to be discussed amongst the GAC and WMF. We will definitely be discussing this in the context of the WMHU grant and during our upcoming GAC Revamp call.

Regarding this request, we are ok with using a small portion of the budget to reimburse funds spent. This is reasonable and not completely unprecedented in the context of a first grant. Please see WM Slovakia and WM Philippines start-up grants for reference. Alex Wang (WMF) (talk) 20:56, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

Printing material

MADe, NLIGuy, Craig Franklin, Manuel Schneider, Packa, Polimerek, and Roel. Sorry to bother you again. Alex from WMF grant department told me that she's going to close the grant request soon so we WLMP team discussed if anything else to be added in the grant request and printing material came to our mind. We need posters which can distributed among local education institutions and flyers which we will distribute among participants of proposed photo walks in Karachi and Lahore. We're asking Rs 10,000 (US$ 101) for printing material. I've added it in the table. Please consider. --Saqib (talk) 13:24, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

Project scope and activities

MADe, NLIGuy, Craig Franklin, Manuel Schneider, Packa, Polimerek, and Roel. We had initially planned to do a travelling exhibition but since we made this grant request open for reviewing, we have been continuously discussing whether we really need to a travelling exhibition since this is our first time and we don't know the outcome of a contest so we concluded that only a exhibition will be enough for this year which can be held along with the awarding ceremony. Both as one single event. Further I will add here that we've not yet secure a sponsor for exhibition but we've secured a sponsor for ceremony so exhibition will only be held if we able to get a sponsor for it. Second, I want to make it clear that incase we don't able to get good results out of WLMP, we may cancel to hold exhibition+ ceremony so both are tentative and not confirmed. Both events are subjected to successfulness of the WLMP. Will this affect funding of this grant request? --Saqib (talk) 14:33, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

Also "Measures of success", we've decreased " new articles on Wikipedia" from ~50-100 new articles to ~40-50 new articles. --Saqib (talk) 14:36, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

Evaluation by the GAC

GAC Members who approve this grant request

1. MADe (talk) 16:44, 5 June 2014 (UTC) see my opinion above
2. NLIGuy (talk) 04:22, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
3. Craig Franklin (talk) 11:55, 6 June 2014 (UTC), noting that I have concerns about volunteer safety as outlined above, but confident that the organising team has the experience to handle it.
4. --Manuel Schneider^(bla) (+/-) 09:44, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
5. --Packa (talk) 14:15, 11 June 2014 (UTC) except the cash prizes (still in discussion)
6. Polimerek (talk) 09:24, 12 June 2014 (UTC)
7. -- Roel (talk) 02:09, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

GAC Members who oppose this grant request

1. Oppose in the strongest possible terms. Tony (talk) 11:28, 12 June 2014 (UTC) Until we sort out the start date.

Approved

Thank you User Group Pakistan and the GAC for your engagement on this request. The discussion provided a lot of learnings for UG Pakistan, especially as this is their first grant. We look forward to a successful first project! The grant request is approved. Alex Wang (WMF) (talk) 18:02, 17 June 2014 (UTC)