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Wellcom to Mehrdad's Talk PageEdit

Hi, I would be very happy to hear from you. Please leave your messages with proper headline, to make it easy to track. Thank you Mehrdad 19:00, 23 November 2005 (UTC)


  • سلاملار و سایقیلار. مهرداد بَی سیزی آنلیرام آما بویوک بیر نکته نی سیزه گوسترماق ایسته دیم و اودا بودور کی بیزیم ایندی عرب تانیدیغیمز الفبا، اصلینده سومرلردن گلن و گلیشمیش اولان الفبا دیر. بیزیم کوکوموز سومرلره دایانیر و بو عربلر ایله فارسلاردیلار کی بیزیم الفابانی ایشه آلیرلار. باخون بیزیم گچمیش ده یازیلان اثرلریمیزه و یا یرآلتیندان چیخان آنتیک لره. لطفا بو کونو دا داها آیدین و دوشونجه لی اولاق و دیلیمیزی روسلارین تانیتدیغی (غالب اتدیغی) الفباایله قوروماغا باخمیاق. بیزیم الفبامیز و تاریخی اثرلریمیز ساده جه بو الفبا ایله قورونور. تورکیه نین حالینه باخون، آتا تورک الفبانی ده ییشدیردی و اونلار غرورلی تاریخلرینی ایتیردیلر. نه دن؟ ارمنیلر (مسیحیلر) عثمانلی امپراطورلوغونی یخماق ایسته دیلر و بو باشاریلی اولا بولمزدی مگر دیل ده ییشسین. دیلی ساخلایان و قورویان الفباسیدیر. نه دن بیر تورک تاریخینی اوخویوب آنلایا بولمور؟ بو یانلیش بیر ایشدیر. دیلیمیزه، الفبامیزه و گلجه ییمیزه سایقیلی اولاق و غرور ایله قورویاق. یاشاسین آذربایجان BayBak

Qyzganych belmim Ottomancha)) Laekin totyp toram. I write in Tatar, hopefully you understand) Salam. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 16:11, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Ottoman TurkishEdit

Hi Mehrdad, I will forward what you wrote me to langcom. Actually I cannot do much more since I am in the hospital from the morning to late night these days and so even if I would like to follow so many things, I can't. --87.6.30.200 20:47, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Ottoman turkishEdit

Hi! The only source we use for decisions is ISO 639-3 (and we do not make any exception, even in the case the codes are wrong). ISO says Ot.Tu. is not "living". Unless you correct this with ISO officers (we have no power to do it for you) the only way for Ot.Tu. to get a wiki is to demonstrate with actual data that Ot.Tu. is taught in schools as a "classical" language, just as Latin or Ancient Greek. Obviously, this would require more than a couple of countries, possibly turkish schools ih Europe may help. I hope you inderstand that it is NOT in LangCom's mission to judge and correct ISO. We simply guard its application, no matter what we think of particular cases. If you have any problems with the way they classify Ot.Tu. you should interface to them, directly. I personally understand your situation and I do sympathize with you guys, yet by NO MEANS the WMF is willing to issue political recognitions of any kind to anyone. When what you need is recognition, ISO is the address. --Bèrto 'd Sèra 10:21, 24 October 2007 (UTC)


Hi Bèrto 'd Sèra, Thanks for your effort to understand our position.
Ottoman language is thought in major universities around the world such as Oxford[1], Harvard[2], and UCLA[3] to name few. Ottoman language also thought in some Eastern European institutes [4], and some state run collages in Turkey such as Courses at 37 branches of Istanbul Technical Education Centres (ISMEK) and almost by all Turkish Universities. It is a core (non selective) subject for courses in Literature, History, Art, Librarians, and Archival education. [5][6] [7] [8]. (For more detailed list of educational opportunities in this language please refer to the list I am compiling to place in the English Wikipedia under relevant article Educational Opportunities in Ottoman Language).


Bèrto 'd Sèra, While understanding your task in providing a uniform rule and consistency in approving new applications, I would like to point out that, at the time of our application adn during the most of the last year, there was no such conditions you listed for the languages in similar situations, or much less known historical ones. While we have been busy writing more than 1200 articles, and tried to get someone to have a look at our case, no one has told us we need not to apply. Indeed if there is a new condition on acceptance of new projects, wouldn't it be unfair to apply it to old application like this one?

In the case of ISO code I may have failed to make it clear that in fact codes TUR and OTA are referring to the same language.[[:en:ISO 639:TUR|]] I'm not saying that ISO coding is wrong and need correction. ISO provides code OTA for the Ottoman Language which was once dominant language of Ottoman Empire and then changed in writing system from Arabic to Latin officially. While Code TUR refers to Ottoman Turkish outside of the modern Turkish borders but within the greater cultural zone of the Turkish influence in Eastern Europe and Asia. One would agree that this is not the usual case with most languages. Ethnologure clarifies this by this quote[9]:

We have mapped this code to Turkish [TRK]. ISO distinguishes this code from [ota] on the basis of time, [tur] applying to the Turkish language since 1928, and [ota] applying to the Turkish language prior to 1928. The year 1928 corresponds to the year in which writing reform occurred, changing from Arabic to Latin script. Thus, these two codes are distinguishing between the Arabic- and Latin-based writing systems rather than between languages. This goes against the normal practice for ISO 639-x, as described in clause 4.1.3. Thus, we deem that this language is also covered by the ISO code [ota].

I will look forward to know your views on the subject. Tanks --Mehrdad 18:55, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
If you start working BEFORE receiving conditional approval you do so at your own risk. Your project NEVER was conditionally approved, and it is not, thus far. You still work at your own risk. What you say basically endorses ISO classification. OTA is a "closed branch", the active branch for the language being TUR. As such OTA is not supposed to undergo any further semantic production, since the year 1928 is well over. The precedents at LangCom say your request will be rejected and rerouted to a "wikisource" project. Moreover, since the language is basically only another script with vocabulary variations from TUR, there will definetely be a trend for it to be rerouted to a TUR wikisource. Personally I would vote for an independent OTA wikisource, since the material in it has cultural relevance for a much wider linguistic area than TUR alone. Closing OTA sources in a strictly Turkish project would mean depriving most former Ottoman cultures of an important part of their historical libraries, so that's nonsense to me. Yet, at this point in time "having a wiki" is only possible in case you can show that OTA is currently used as a widespread "classical language". In this context the data you are giving are of interest and *may* make a difference, so let's work on them. Can you quote an estimate of the number of people receiving education in OTA vs the number of people receiving education in TUR and other related languages? It would also help to have sectorial data, that is, what OTA is meant to be used for in these education plans. This should be official data, not mine or your opinions. For this wiki request to be conditionally approved we need objective data showing that this is "latin for Turkish people", or something like that. The main problem is time. It's just 80 years of divergence, most people will consider it too little for OTA to be more than a "literary register" of TUR. If it wasn't for the change in script you'll never make it, so pls add data regarding the diffusion of arabic script and the impact on the usability of OTA vs TUR. These are the basic elements you can succesfully play with. I'm not trying to stop you, on the opposite, I'm trying to give you hints at what you can use. --Bèrto 'd Sèra 07:17, 26 October 2007 (UTC)




Please note that, the criteria for conditional approval till Octobe 17, 2007 were[10]:

    1. The proposal is to open a new language edition of an existing Wikimedia project that does not already exist.
    2. The language should have a valid ISO-639 (search) or BCP 47 (list) code.
      If there is no valid ISO-639 or RFC 4646 code, it should be a natural language or a well-established constructed language.
    3. The language must be sufficiently unique that it could not coexist on a more general wiki. In most cases, this excludes regional dialects and different written forms of the same language.
      The degree of difference required is considered on a case-by-case basis. The subcommittee does not consider political differences, since the Wikimedia Foundation's goal is to give every single person free, unbiased access to the sum of all human knowledge, rather than information from the viewpoint of individual political communities.
    4. The proposal has a sufficient number of interested editors to form a viable community and audience. If the proposal is for an artificial language such as Esperanto, it must have a reasonable degree of recognition as determined by discussion.
      Many users consider fictional languages (such as Klingon) to be unacceptable, and such proposals may get strong opposition. A precedent of note is the Klingon Wikipedia, which was eventually shut down (see archived discussion).


Please correct me if I am wrong, but I fail to find any of the above criteria contradicting the conditional approval of Ottoman Wikipedia and that is the copy of the conditions up to October 17 , 2007, that is after 13 months of activity on Ottoman Wikipedia. It is interesting that this change of conditions has happened right after our discussions and inquiry on approval process.

Considering the above listed conditions, I would like to bring to your attention the noble goal mentioned within the above criteria:

Wikimedia Foundation's goal is to give every single person free, unbiased access to the sum of all human knowledge, rather than information from the viewpoint of individual political communities

We both seem to agree that there is significant systematic education in Ottoman Turkish language , both within Turkey and out through out respected universities, as well as in Eastern Europe and there is a body of human knowledge in this language, limited due to political reasons. Now we have been asked to provide a figure on number of people tought in this language. Can you direct us to any other example such as this numbers and sources which has been presented to Language Subcommittee from oterh requests, to help us drafting such statistics, or Ottoman Language is the first one subject to this condition?. Also I would like to know what figure would be sufficient to conditionally approve Ottoman Wikipedia? 10 or 100, or 100000 or more.
To me considering the goals of the Wiki foundation, the less the opportunities for a language, historical, endangered, classical, more the reason to allocate some resources and see if these seeds grow. Much like the stubs for an article.

Please refer to the date and nature of the changes in conditions for approval of Wiki projects here [11].
--Mehrdad 17:03, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the data. They turn my own vote into an approval, unless serious objections are presented. Let's see what happens. --Bèrto 'd Sèra 20:17, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Bèrto 'd Sèra, Thank you for approval vote. I am sure your vote will have a positive effect on the discussion. Would you kindly let the other committee members know of your vote please. DO you belive the discussion page for Ottoman Language needs to be moved/copied to November page? Look forward to see the other members view. --Mehrdad 17:03, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

You are welcome. Bear in mind that the decision about OTA is part of a more general definition of policy towards "historical languages" as such. So the final result of the discussion is still to be decided. There are objective reasons on both fronts. Anyway, the discussion about OTA as such is over and a "classical role" is granted. It remains to be seen whether "being classical" will be acceptable for ANY language (not just OTA). --Bèrto 'd Sèra 20:18, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Hello, I've deleted your message regarding education on Talk:Special projects subcommittees/Languages/Archives/2007-11 because I've already forwarded the same message to the subcommittee. —{admin} Pathoschild 17:25:24, 05 November 2007 (UTC)

Hi Pathoschild, The deletion is fine by me, as long as it is reflected on the discussions. Now that Bèrto 'd Sèra is approving the Ottoman Wikipedia, you and Shanel‎ had very positive view of the project and the test Wiki, I am very optimistic on approval of the project. Thanks for your support so far. --Mehrdad 14:09, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Gagavuz Vikipedisi`ne yardımEdit

Değerli Mehrdad. Ben bir Azeri kökenli kullanıcıyım ve Gagavuz kardeşlerimiz için Vikipedi`nin açlması için uğraşıyorum. Bu günlerde Kırım Tatar Vikipedisinin kurulmasına karar verildi. Şimdi Gagavuz Vikipedisi için aynısını yapmaya çalışıyoruz. Ama Gagavuz kardeşlerimizin bir kısmının Vikipedi bilgileri, diğerlerinin ise ana dili kusurlu olduğu için Türk Vikipediçilerinin yardımına ihtiyaç var. Elinizden geleni esirgemeyiniz. Sorularınızı aşağıdaki

sayfalarındaki Cuman isimli kullanıcıya (yani bana) iletebilirsiniz.

Requests for comments/Azeri wikipediaEdit

Hello Mehrdad, please forgive me if You already saw that issue and just decided not to comment, but if not I would like to point You to that discussion since You are bureaucrat and active user in az.wiki Your opinion on this would be welcomed, two users from there have approached many people here and/or on irc but word stands against word now. Many thanks in advance for Your help, best regards, --birdy geimfyglið (:> )=| 19:10, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Bot flag for w:az:User:Purbo T at the Azeri WikipediaEdit

Hi Mehrdad, there is a pending Request for a bot flag in the Azeri Wikipedia. Please have a look at it, and maybe grant a bot flag for w:az:User:Purbo T. Thank you. --Purodha Blissenbach 13:24, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

SalamEdit

Salam Mehrdad. Azərbaycan Vikipediyasına gəlmək istəmirsinizmi? --N KOziTalk 05:19, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

Steward requests/PermissionsEdit

Salam. Uzun müddətdir ki, Azərbaycandilli Vikipediyada aktiv deyilsiniz. Bunu nəzərə alaraq Steward requests/Permissions səhifəsində bürokrat və idarəçi statusunuzdan imtina etməyinizi təklif edirəm. Uğurlar! --Cekli829 05:26, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

Ərəb hərfli MediaViki fayllarıEdit

Salam Mehrdad. Azərbaycanca Vikipediyada Ərəb hərfli MediaViki faylları problemlər yaranmışdır. Zəhmət olmasa, bizə baş çəkə bilməzsənmi? --N KOziTalk 06:48, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

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