Talk:Image filter referendum/en/Referendum

What's a referendum and what's this

A discussion about the title of the page is taking place at Meta:Proposed page moves#Image filter referendum.

Vote is needed to trash the proposal

Please people, vote against this insanity. Self-cencorship is still cencorship. How blissfull it must be for people to continue being ignorant on topics they find "offending" or "harmful". Also, using child-safety once again as a reason for such system is just maddening. Once again! And in Wikipedia of all places! Isn't slowly but steadily tighteningn noose around neck of free Internet enough? All reasoning to cencoring internet is always about protecting children or preventing child-porn, while actual results are much wider-ranging in every cencorship case ever recorded. Now that self-deluding cancer has reached Wikipedia. This is truly maddening. 0rino 13:17, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

The proposed Image Filter project is a precursor to imposed censorship, as it involves the subjective categorization of images, e.g.: an image of a girl on a beach in a bikini, which would be inoffensive to some would be categorized as objectionable or even pornographic by religious fundamentalists. The very basis of this project is opposite to Wikipedia's core values, one if which is NO CENSORSHIP. And as noted previously above, if the project is implemented, then '....welcome to image tag wars'.

This proposal is COMPLETELY UNWORTHY OF WIKIPEDIA, which should abide by the firm policy of no censorship. Readers of our projects who view articles on masturbation or the Nanking Massacre should reasonably expect to see images which are sexually explicit or graphically violent; they and their children should not view our works if they can be so offended, since our works and their images are based on codes of verified reliable sources and neutral point of view. Parents are wholly responsible for what materials their children access via the Internet –Wikipedia is not their babysitter.

As to 'surprise' images of nudists riding bicycles (and similar objections): if such images are not in the norm (i.e. most people do not ride bicycles in the nude), then the image is misplaced or irrelevant to the article and should be expunged. If and when an article on 'Nude bicyclism' is created, then the images of nude bicylists are entirely appropriate to that article. The argument of 'surprise' is a complete red herring submitted largely by those of fundamentalist right stripes. Harryzilber 16:20, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

I absolutely agree. I think that it's despicable that the board would take such a heavy-handed approach to such a controversial topic, possibly against consensus. I marked 0 for the first question on the ballot and I encourage others to do so as well. — Internoob (Wikt. | Talk | Cont.) 17:08, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

That's naive though. Suppose that I need to learn about Naturalism (art) - so I type in "Naturism" - and find (to my horror), not some crappy porcelain figurine of a shepherd, but instead, right there at the very top of the page, to the right of the lede - a picture of half a dozen naked people. A simple typo or misunderstanding of a term (that the reader is looking up in an encyclopedia precisely because they don't yet understand it) can result in such problems. Consider that there are some companies out there who might fire someone for looking at the picture at the top of Naturism on company time when they are supposed to be researching Rococo figurines! So precisely because I'm against censorship of Wikipedia - and because I demand the right to have full-frontal pictures of nudists at the top of the naturist page - I'd very much like a "No Porn Please!" filter. SteveBaker 19:10, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

SteveBaker, I like what you're saying. I'd like to add the point, in response the the censorship purists, that this isn't, fundamentally, imposing censorship on ANYONE. It sounds like an opt in system. Making a list of check boxes (I think would be the best system) that say "Would you like to block images of: Porn (Scant dress/Soft/Hard)? Mohammad? Gore (Nasty papercut/Wounds/Serious mutilation)?" ect isn't imposing censorship. It's tabulation of images. Wikipedia? All about organizing ideas, just by defining them. Why shouldn't we allow users to block what they don't like?

In response to the peeps below me, "broden you horizon"? Grammar/Spelling aside, why would I want my horizons forcibly moved out? If I want to try that, I'll do it myself, thanks. And communist China? Not the only people touchy about employee porn. -Reade

You are very easely horrified - but that experiance may broden you horizon. Perhaps you should teach your computer not to accept certain words you type into searchfields. --Eingangskontrolle 20:25, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

If your company fires you for reading Wikipedia then you're likely in Communist China, in which case you'll probably have many more important issues to deal with. Harryzilber 20:33, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not intended solely for the twenty-something leftist neckbeard from a first world country. I would hope Wikipedia is used as an educational tool by people who most need it, and if allowing opt-in filtering of pictures of the prophet Mohammed gets a young Muslim child from the Sudan to educate themselves, then that is a far better thing than you getting to feel ideologically pure about "censorship". Which this ISN'T. Unigolyn 08:52, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

Unigolyn: while your concept of education involves the removal of knowledge from our collective works, that is certainly not Wikipedia's which has had for many years the stated goal of "...a world in which every single human being can freely share in the sum of all knowledge". Not: "a world in which every single human being can freely share in the sum of all knowledge except categories a through m". You're obviously an usurper to that cause.

It's not wikipedia, or Unigolyn, or you that forcing information out of the article (if only potentially), it's the culture that says, "No images of Mohammad." What's better, a situation where religious adherents cannot morally (as they see it) view a page, or one where they can? Which is freeing up the flow of info, at least for them?

Young Sudanese students are entitled to view or not view images of Mohammed as they see fit —that decision is definitely not for you to make on their behalf. Hopefully you're not a teacher or in any way involved with an educational system. Harryzilber 21:12, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

The problem is partly that it can't be done in a non-neutral way. No matter what we will end up being simultaneously too conservative for some viewers and too liberal for others. It is not the position of an encyclopedia to say "this photo is inappropriate" or alternatively, "you shouldn't reasonably be offended by this photo". The cultural aspects of it add a whole other dimension of POV. You might decide that women in bikinis are not nudity, but that's your culture talking. Your "naturism" problem can be solved in any of several less drastic, more effective ways (disambiguation page perhaps?) but the POV aspects of this cannot. — Internoob (Wikt. | Talk | Cont.) 22:40, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

Please define porn. Does the foot need to be naked to be porn? Does it need to be in a stocking? Or with a shoe hanging from a toe? Under a stream of water? Only if it's a male foot, and how obvious must it be that it's male? Is a naked neck porn, or only when the veil is shown partly lifted to expose it? The knee, porn or not? The lower thigh? The upper? Only the inside? Does male or female thigh make a difference? A male buttock in soccer shorts during a game? A possible bulge from a penis under trousers? A group of nude people? The group only out of a clear artistic or naturist context? A two day old naked in the bath? A 1 year old? 2 year old? 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 89, 90 year old? How much of the nakedness must be visible and how much hinted at or presumed? Are signs of sexual maturity required? Which could be porn and which innocent? This description of things that might be porn, or parts of it? Each of those would be erotic material for some portion of the population. "Porn" is not a readily definable concept since so much is in the mind of the viewer. While I couldn't define porn reliably in a way that covers the range of human experience, I could describe facts about an image that an individual could choose to use to create their own individual description of what they consider to be possibly pornographic. Jamesday 03:04, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

The irony with this objection is that forcing unwanted imagery on users is worse than censorship. Personal choice is not censorship. Why, if it were legal I think that those crying out "censorship" at this proposal would argue for including child pornography in the paedohillia article, as not doing so would be "censorship". 2.120.227.113 01:07, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

The above contributor wrote "The irony with this objection is that forcing unwanted imagery on users is worse than censorship." That's highly disingenuous. No one is being forced to view Wikipedia, which amply notes its non-censorship policy along with its disclaimers. If you don't want to see articles that include images which offend you, then you have the right to fork off another encyclopedia and stay there. The wiki software is completely free and no one will mind if you never visit this work again for the remainder of your life. Harryzilber 04:22, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

Cannot unsee. If, through ignorance, the road I usually follow to wikiprojects, I run into something I find offensive, I can't unsee it, not readily. It takes time to forget, and it's not a process I have very much control over. I can, accidentally, be 'forced' to view an image. Why not let me block those images categorically before I run into them? It affects no one else, unless someone is borrowing my account, and really? That's not exactly likely.

There are many more topics that don't violate law, but will also fall under the curse of censorship. Whats lost is lost and the WMF is supporting it. --Niabot 01:13, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

This about "paedophilia" is one of the largest straw men I have ever seen. People that are against the proposal don't necessarily want the WMF to host illegal images. You're also missing the point about censorship: if some POV pusher wanted to tag all the women in bikinis as nudity for example, they would effectively be censoring "reasonable" content for those who have this feature turned on. And I put "reasonable" in quotation marks because the POV pusher would actually have a case: for some people, this is nudity, which brings me to my next point that this can't be done culturally neutrally. You might know exactly where to draw the line on nudity, or even if you mostly know where to draw the line, there will be people who are more conservative and others more liberal than you. — Internoob (Wikt. | Talk | Cont.) 20:04, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

I completely agree, this proposal is not in the spirit of Wikipedia and I don't know how such a major change could have gone so far without broad discussions with the community (not just some small "consultation" which nobody will hear about). Instead they simply spring upon us this change and ask for votes, though we are not told whether this "referendum" is even binding. The entire referendum question is written in very biased way, which makes it sound like a minor technical change, I'm guessing no one who objected to the proposal was allowed to contribute to writing the question (this type of vote would shame a Banana Republic). --Hibernian 06:26, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

It's too late. This vote will not decide whether the feature is implemented or not. If you don't like that, you can complain to the board, or walk, but as I understand it, nothing here matters in terms of the question of whether such a feature will be implemented. This discussion is moot, let's move along. --Joe Decker 02:55, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

Ik ben faliekant TEGEN! - Dit riekt, nee: stinkt naar censuur! Tenzij het een door volwassenen (op hun eigen computer - en dáár alleen) in te bouwen/schakelen kinderbeschermingsfilter betreft.

Daarom heb ik vraag 6 met "?" beantwoord; aangezien "cultureel neutraal" een oxymoron is. Cultuur is per definitie divers. Al ademend zuurstof in kooldioxide omtoveren is zowat alles wat wij mensen gemeen hebben.

Vandaar ook mijn ongemakkelijk gevoel bij het ZEER suggestieve voorbeeld in vraag 5 (wel 'bloed', geen 'bloot') waarin ik het misselijkmakend puritanisme omtrent alles wat in de verste verte naar sexualiteit (of zelfs maar lichamelijkheid) zou kunnen verwijzen herken. Sintermerte Sintermerte 14:08, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

I am utterly AGAINST! the proposal. - It reeks of censorship! Unless it's a filter, to be built in/activated by adults (on their own computer - and ONLY there) for the protection of minors.

Thus "?" I answer question # 6; for "culturally neutral" is an oxymoron. Culture is diverse by nature & definition. To conjure oxygen into carbon dioxide (by magic) while breathing is about all we humans have in common.

Hence my unease at the VERY suggestive example in question # 5 (condone the "ferocity of brute force" versus proscribe a "state of undress") redolent of the nauseating puritanism which abhors all that could ever so remotely hint at sexuality (or indeed the corporeal). Sintermerte Sintermerte 14:08, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

Ich bin ausgesprochen GEGEN den Vorschlag! - Er riecht, stinkt sogar, nach Zensur! Es sei denn es betrifft ein Filter (von Erwachsenen ein zu bauen/schalten auf ihren eigenen Rechner - und NUR dar) zum Schutz Minderjähriger.

Weswegen ich Frage # 6 mit "?" beantworte: weil "kulturell neutral" ein oxymoron ist. Vielvältiger und verschiedener als Kultur ist kaum vorstellbar; dafür brauch' ich meinen Browning nich zu entsichern. Beim atmen Sauerstoff in Kappesdioxid um zu zaubern ist beinah' das Einzige was uns Menschen gemeinsam verbindet.

Daher auch mein unheimisches Gefühl bei dem SEHR suggestiven Vorbild in Frage # 5 (ja für "Not & Tod" nein für "Nackt & Titten" - (mehr "Blut", weniger "Brust")) welches ein abschäulicher Puritanismus atmet der Alles was nur ein Hauch von Sexualität, ja sogar Körperlichkeit aufweist, verachtet. Sintermerte Sintermerte 14:08, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

Survey is ambiguous

It is important that the feature be culturally neutral: as much as possible, it should aim to reflect a global or multi-cultural view of what imagery is potentially controversial.

It's completely unclear whether this is intended to be an inclusive or exclusive addition, i.e. would a Muhammad filter be offered/implemented because one cultural group prefers this, or would Muhammad cartoons remain completely uncensored because only a minority group opposes this? While the potential contradiction between "global" and "multi-cultural" in one of the possible interpretations hints at the intended meaning, this insight is immediately torpedoed by the inclusion of "potentially". This means whoever will be in charge of implementing the outcome of the survey can interpret this question to mean whatever they want. Therefore many people may be uneasy with answering this question. Samsara 22:02, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

It's worse than that actually - large groups of Wikipedia contributors finds censorship as such offensive. And it's long been recognized that tagging images (or other media) with tags for the explicit purpose of censoring them, is helping out those who want censorship. Thus you have the situation where some people find certain images offensive, while others find that implementing technical infrastructure in order to facilitate the censorship of the same images, is also offensive. Thus you literally *cannot* avoid offending someone. The only choice is who to offend. Do we want to offend those who object to free distribution of information (including topics that are controversial to someone somewhere). Or do we instead want to protect those people from offense, but trample all over those editors that believed in Wikipedias stance on NOT censoring. --Eivind 06:49, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

Petition against the development of an opt-in personal image hiding feature

We, the undersigned, are Opposed to this development.

95.147.60.247 08:02, 20 August 2011 (UTC) (wikipedia:bobcousins)

Please don't do this. Actual discussion is occurring above. Appending one's name to a "petition" without elaboration is far less constructive. —David Levy 08:23, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

Agreed -- allthoug in fairness, this is really a missing-option in the poll. The poll should, if it is to be useful at all, have a question where you're allowed to communicate if you strongly support, strongly oppose or something in between this misfeature. The closest thing there now is if the feature is "important", which isn't the same thing at all. Thus, while I agree with you that adding your name to a list of people who oppose the feature is less constructive - I would argue that the poll itself thus is less constructive. --Eivind 06:59, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

Bias in Referendum Questions - Important/Unimportant vs. Support/Oppose

I like the idea that this feature would go to referendum, as there are strong arguments on both sides. But it is deeply discouraging to read through these arguments, go to the voting page, and realize that the decision has essentially already been made. We are not being asked whether we support or oppose this feature. We are merely being asked whether it is important or unimportant that it be implemented. Even a vote of '0' does not register active opposition, merely disinterest. Personally, I have grave concerns that this initiative is wholly incompatible with Wikipedia's neutrality policy and will be a great boon to third-party censors. Saying that it is "not important" that the feature be implemented is not an accurate reflection of my views.--Trystan 17:58, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

Third-party censors already can use the existing commons category system. All or most images showing nudity for example are already under a nudity-category (see "nude women with shoes": the censors even can chose most meticulous details of our already in place censorship system!). We have a violence-cat with several under-categories too and so on. This is the reason why I think we don't need many new categories for this filter system. They are mostly already there. One could think of abolish the complete category system to make it harder for censors though... Adornix 18:09, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

I'm not entirely pleased with image-hiding based only on current cats, but it is survivable. This does still open up new avenues of attack, but the security measures (soft and hard) are already in place for current cats. These will have to be strengthened, but at least we won't be on terra incognita.

But do we have any way to stop people making new cats, specifically for purposes of filtering (which we know they will). That will be killer. :-/ --Kim Bruning 18:29, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

There would need to be new categories (see the example in the previous section). Rich Farmbrough 19:44 21 August 2011 (GMT).

As has been pointed out about, we currently categorize images in an attempt to be neutrally descriptive. This is a world apart from tagging potentially "objectionable" contant to empower each user (or a third party) to filter whatever they do not want to see.--Trystan 18:39, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

As far as I understand the foundation's plans, all new filtering categories would have to be as neutrally descriptive as the already existing ones. This is my interpretation of "culturally neutral" as Phobe explains it above. And since the community will have to tag the images, there has to be consensus for every new category and for all categorizations.Adornix 20:27, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

How can the formal determination that x image is "potentially objectionable" and y image isn't possibly be neutral? How can the formal determination that x subject constitutes "sexual" or "violent" content and y subject doesn't possibly be neutral? —David Levy 20:42, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

I don't doubt that we can set standards and use them to label potentially controversial pictures. Immodest dress, religious satire, etc. can be objectively (if rather arbitrarily) set down into working, applicable standards. But the process of applying them - of tagging images to warn about certain types content - is a very different process from looking at an image and trying to describe what it is substantively about. For example, if a picture has a rather incidental depiction of a same-sex couple that is largely irrelevant to what the picture is about, it would not make sense to categorize it under homosexuality. But if we are in the business of warning people who don't want to look at any depictions of homosexuality, it would need to be labelled as such.--Trystan 20:46, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

"to filter whatever they do not want to see" - How do we know what they don't want to see unless they give us specific parameters? Won't they be upset or at least annoyed when they inevitably find our idea of "nudity", "sex", etc. doesn't match theirs? Evil saltine 21:32, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

If you read the article page describing it with the images, they 1. get to chose if they accept the categories to block or not and 2. can open an image that is blocked or close one that isn't. Thus, they will be able to set their parameters. Ottava Rima (talk) 21:52, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

So, for example, someone would be able to hide all depictions of Mohammad (and nothing else) if they wanted to? Evil saltine 21:55, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

Who determines which categories to use? (No, we can't simply dump in the entire current list of image categories, which don't come close to covering the "potentially objectionable" content.)

Who determines what images are placed in a given category? —David Levy 22:32, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

I propose that the people who are offended tag the images so the majority of the community won't wast their time. I suggest that no-one who opposes this system should participate in the classification process. Zanaq 17:36, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

Ok, then I suggest that no-one who is in favor of this system should participate in the classification process either. Get to think of it though, the proponents are the ones who are far less likely to be neutral at deciding between images as objectionable and non-objectionable, while the opponents of the filter are rather neutral when it comes to the images. You know what, actually, only opponents of the filter should be creating and maintaining the filter category (ie. if the board is insane enough to allow such a Wikimedia-hosted filter category). --195.14.220.250 18:21, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

How should I know what other people find objectionable? I find nothing objectionable so I won't tag anything. If you find something objectionable you should tag it. The filter itself won´t be neutral: one cannot judge objectionability in a neutral way. The mechanism would be neutral since anyone can declare anything objectionable. Zanaq 17:22, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

So...every single interest group or individual can tag whatever they like however they like with no policy or interference and all images even remotely questionable can be censored from those who use the filter and/or in libraries, schools and other places where the filter would be implemented for all computers. It may be culturaly neutural, in that there will be very few photos that will not be tagged.--Shabidoo 22:18, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

That is correct. Zanaq 10:52, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

Just to spell it out

Oppose, for reasons I expounded above. I also urge other editors, no matter if in favour or opposing, to vote to know where the community stands: whether you agree with the proposal or not, I think nobody likes the fact that it is being crammed down our throat. This will also prevent wrong assumptions about where consensus lies. complainer 08:18, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

I don't think we'd be able to accommodate that here, as we've received over 20,000 votes already. --Mdennis (WMF) 12:50, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

People actively discussing here are far fewer; I think the total number of contributors to this page is less than 1% of that. Hopefully, they are a representative sample. --complainer 12:54, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

I think the important thing in the coming months us to ensure that the results are not misused to try and establish evidence of community support. This is not a referendum presenting arguments for and against, and then asking whether people support or oppose, and should not be misrepresented as such.--Trystan 13:31, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

I don't think there is any risk of misrepresentation: the nature of the referendum has been understood by the community, in spite of the fact that the term "referendum" is, as observed multiple times, wildly misleading. The problem with the referendum is that it can establish evidence of community support, but has no way whatsoever of assessing whether the community does not, in fact, support the proposal. The purpose of this head count is to fix this (not really minor) flaw. Due to the vastly different voting procedures, I don't think anybody could possibly confuse the two. --complainer 13:41, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

+1 to the need to take care with the results, and I agree with complainer that the results aren't actually going to wind up misused, for a lot of reasons. The best thing we can do is publish all the results in aggregate, after removing usernames. To me, if one of our project communities reach consensus that they wants this, then the feature should, at minimum, be implemented on that project. --AlecMeta 16:43, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

We have to note, that according to the way the question is asked the result will be: Voters feel it is important by different degrees. Lets hope, that 0 and 1 will be interpreted as not important at all, respectively not important enough to spend any more money and manpower into it. This referendum is a farce and until a real vote with yes or no option will be held, it will not be accepted. --Bahnmoeller 07:41, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

So, complainer, you are trying to make people in favour of the filter think "I support the decision, but the process was bad, so I'll vote against it". That's not the way to govern a project, or a country, or the world. It's like voting if favour of the death penalty just to complain about a country's crime policy. --190.135.94.198 00:53, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

What on Earth gives you that impression? I am trying to make most people against the filter say "I don't support the decision, and the process was bad, so it looks like I voted for it". I don't need to deceive anybody: if you read the posts, and I mean all the posts, you'll easily see that people are mostly against the proposal. There is no real way of seeing it from the way the referendum is formulated right now. I am, by the way, also urging people like you to say "Support" instead of speculating on my intentions: why would I be concerned about censorhip if I were to act underhandedly myself? It wouldn't make any sense. --complainer 24 August 2011

No, you'll see that many of the people who (1) figured out where to comment, (2) speak English well enough to join this discussion, (3) care enough to comment at all and (4) believe that they're going to lose—a group that is dramatically more limited than "people"—are against the proposal. Or, at least, they're against what they believe is the proposal.

"People" and "people who comment in a complaints forum" are not the same thing. People who are extremely unhappy and feeling powerless are far more likely to comment than people who think it's a great idea and are confident that they are going to get what they want. If you think that this proposal is so obviously a good idea that of course everyone will support it, you cast your ballot and go about your business. If you think this is a truly horrific idea that will be implemented anyway, then you are motivated to complain here.

This is a very typical pattern. You can see the same pattern right now at the discussions about the Article Feedback Tool: A dozen people are screaming bloody murder about it. The fact that 90% of the (literally) thousands of people who have used it and said that they support it is incomprehensible to them. The absence of those thousands of people from the bug-reporting and other complaints-oriented pages has led some of them to basically believe that those thousands of people don't exist (or don't count, since many of them are merely readers rather than experienced editors). They have confused "number of supporters who are willing to waste time arguing with complainants" with the "number of supporters". WhatamIdoing 18:52, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Can we stop the assumption war for a moment? And maybe try not to turn it into a (spurious, too: this is not a bug, but an intentional proposal) parallels war instead? This is the entire idea of a head count. As for people being happy or unhappy, let's face it, the accepted practice in democracies is that people who choose not to express their opinion have no influence on decisions; you can't invalidate the results of an election just because you think that people who are happy with the government vote less--although this is, technically, true in most countries. And please, stop telling me that the people who support the decision are a silent majority: many, including a user banned for trolling on wikipedia, are extremely active, vocal, and aggressive here. Which reminds me: if everybody signs his posts somehow, it becomes a lot easier to communicate. --complainer

We are getting a head count; so far, more than 20,000 people have participated in the head count. However, the head count is not happening on this page. I don't know (I doubt that anybody knows: that's the point behind having a third-party vendor collect the votes) what the results will be, but I do know that the participation on this page is not a reliable marker for the actual results.

The reason I mentioned the parallel discussion is because there's already been extensive surveys there, and we have results from several thousand people, which are that about 90% say they support the AFT, 5% say they think it useless, and 5% don't care. But on the discussion pages, the supporters and detractors are evenly divided. The discussion is therefore a completely unreliable indicator of the community-wide view.

Back on this discussion—but also closely paralleling the AFT discussion—I also know that the individual supporters who choose to comment on this page are very confident that the tool will be supported, and that the individual detractors who choose to comment on this page are convinced that their very strong opposition will "be ignored" (to use a typical claim) because a majority will support it. However, we might all be wrong. It could be that the supporters will turn out to be the minority. We'll find out next month. In the meantime, I encourage you not to mistake the views expressed on this page for the views of the whole community. WhatamIdoing 16:54, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

The community supports the filters because all the information they had to answer the questions was based on a biased FAQ, strangely phrased questions and the proposal written as though it was a harmless change to wikipedia and nothing more. If you carefuly look at these discussions you will see that there are FAR more people against this "referendum" than for. --Shabidoo 18:44, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

I know that there are many people here opposed to the filter (not the referendum). Whether those people represent the view of the whole community is unknown.

It appears, however, that you believe the rest of the community will support the filter only because you think they are much stupider than the critics here. I am sad to read that you believe that the supporters' ability to read and understand the referendum is so much less than the critics'. Have you considered the alternative, good-faith interpretation, which is that the support is based on fully understanding and actually liking the idea presented here, rather than them being ignorant, confused and easily swayed by what you call "a biased FAQ" and "strangely phrased questions"? Could it be that the supporters, rather than being stupid, merely have different values than you? WhatamIdoing 17:28, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

@WhatamIdoing: the problem is that the referendum text is misleading; I don't think people reading the referendum:

1 - have thought through what the tagging can mean: myself, originally, came to this page with a merely technical concern, namely that the servers would not have been able to bear the added load (the point remains valid, by the way).

2 - if opposed, have a coherent way of expressing it: while some might actually vote zero to the importance, I ecpect most other just to abandon the page. People that like the proposal have no brainwork to do: they just have to praise it.

The problem goes deeper than this referendum and down to the shift of wikipedia away from its consensus-based decision procedure, which began with the restructuring of the WMF Board of Trustees rules into a complicated abomination that, in practice, allows Jimbo to always control its majority (it would be off topic to discuss it here but, if you are interested, try to read the restructure announcement, and follow the various branches of the election procedures). Then there is the matter of form: a decision taken by a former pornographer with Lovelace's syndrome and based on a "study" with no hard research and countless simplification, which amounts to little more than a high school essay is not something people should accept, regardless of their opinion about pictures. --en:User:complainer

I had the very same experience. I thought the filter seemed harmless and voted for it. I looked at the discussion (as I thought it was only a discussion about how to implement the referendum). I discovered to my horror, that there isn't even anything close to a community consensus on the topic. Very revolting. I've been trying ever since to get a very big and noticeable link to this discussion, and NO ONE listened. I just got them to move the discussion link a little higher. So, to answer your question...it has nothing to do with the cleverness of anyone and everything to do with neutrality in presenting the issue (more than one side) and encouraging and fostering debate (including advertising that there is debate instead of writing a completely one sided FAQ and manipulative questions). I cannot recount how many times I have expressed this. I am positive the results would be different if the discussion page was advertised. --Shabidoo 08:53, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

As with all votes, you are not supposed to vote what you believe some other people want. You are supposed to vote for what you—and only you—personally think is best. This means that even if everyone else in the world thinks this is a great idea, but you hate it, then it is your duty and right to oppose it in the referendum—and even if everyone who bothered to complain on this page hates it (which is far from the case, and I believe we'll find that the people on this page are far from representative), if you personally think it's a good idea, then it is your duty and right to support it in the referendum. It is not your job to vote for what you guess other people want. They've got their own votes; you shouldn't surrender yours to them. WhatamIdoing 16:38, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

It might be his duty, but it certainly isn't his option: he cannot oppose anything in the referendum. HE can just say it isn't important, which is certainly not the same. But you know this as well as we do. complainer

Once again...you fail to see the point. It's almost as if everyone cannot see the point. If someone asks me "Hey, there is this girl who is a little short on money, and we are all pitching in a dollar...why don't you help out?". I'll say...of course...here is a dollar. Now...if someone takes me to the side and says...did you know she is a bit of a loser and always needs money and is out of control and manipulates people? I'll think...I should look into this more...see what other people have to say...see if there are various views and ask questions if I can.

This is how I see this referendum. Unless you know you have to click on the discussion, unless you have any reason to doubt the way this referendum was presented (which was entirely biased and one sided), or unless you are just lucky enough to have randomly clicked on the "discussion tab"...you would have NO IDEA that the filter isn't simply some innocent feature that the board is simply trying to get a vote on. If you take a moment and look at the entire presentation of the referendum, the wording of the questions...and the FAQ before I changed it...you just might pick up on what I am saying. --Shabidoo 02:34, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

Proposal to change the questions on this "referendum"

There is no question which asks...should wikipedia utilize an image filter. There is no way to clearly and difinitively say...no. --Shabidoo 21:43, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

I do not believe that any changes will be made to the questions in the referendum at this point in the vote. --Mdennis (WMF) 11:48, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

At least the WMF should take into account that there was no "no option" if she starts with the interpretation of the results. --Niabot 11:53, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Taken into account, and amplified by some of the combinations of freeform comments and votes. –SJ talk | translate   01:53, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

AlecMeta writes above: "if one of our project communities reach consensus that they wants this, then the feature should, at minimum, be implemented on that project. --AlecMeta 16:43, 22 August 2011 (UTC)" -- I like this formulation of community empowerment, and think one of the reasons to improve the poll data is to find out which communities have consensus there. But please note that a sticking point here is how much time it takes to develop a workable solution. If only one community wants it, the work would likely have lower priority. –SJ talk | translate   02:00, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

I don't think that's a reasonable interpretation of the ballot questions. If you think this should not be implemented, then your answer to "How important is it for the Wikimedia projects to offer this feature to readers?" is "Zero: it is not important for WMF to offer this feature".

What isn't offered is the more subjective, "How strong are your emotions on this subject?" A person who votes "ten" but doesn't really care much one way or the other will be counted the same as a person who votes "ten" and thinks the world will end if the feature isn't offered. WhatamIdoing 19:00, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

A botched experiment. Nothing like this can accurately give you the information you need, if the planning of it and the execution of it is organised and run by people who have one point of view and assume a positive response from everyone. --Shabidoo 23:59, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

The point is not so much the interpretation, but the procedure: if somebody stops you on the street and asks you "From 0 to 10, how important do you think it is that your left kidney is surgically removed?", would you think "What a nice man, he is thinking of my possible renal disease, I'll say '0' to let him know I'm fine"? Most people would assume he wants to sell your organs, and will do so no matter what you answer is; this is exactly the feeling one has with this particular referendum. To get back to the metaphor, a bunch of fundamentalists shouting "What about the children who need a transplant?" and "One God, one Government, one Kidney" or accusing you of slandering the medical profession all around wouldn't help, either. --compainer 09:18, 30 August 2011 (UTC)