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Requests for new languages/Wikipedia Tunisian/First Discussion

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Tunisian Language Presentation edit

The Tunisian (In Tunisian: Tounsi) is a language spoken as the mother tongue of eleven million Tunisians. It is a vowel-based language best known for being closely related to Maltese. This language is widely used in culture, communication, media, and other. It has ancient roots and influences from the Amazigh to the French. Punic, the Pidgin language between the Semitic Phoenician settlers and the indigenous Amazigh, was the local language, and was widely spoken at the time. After the Carthaginian defeat, Latin was introduced. Later Arabic, another Semitic language, was brought by the Arabs after the Islamic conquest and settlement in Tunisia. After the Ottoman Capture of Tunis, Tunisia became an Ottoman Regency and Turks brought along their vocabulary with them to Tunisia. Although the Turkish Rule ended in the XIX Century, Tunisian has kept its words of Turkish origins. French, Italian and Maltese played a major role in enriching the Tunisian language, too. French and Italian words are easily distinguishable in Tunisian and are of major importance. Tunisian has various dialects within Tunisian which can be classified as following: - Grand Tunis Dialect - Northwestern Dialect (Close to the Algerian language) - Southeastern Dialect (Close to the Libyan language) - Sahel Dialect (Sousse, Monastir, Mahdia) - Sfax Dialect - Other dialects. This may prove that Tunisian is an independent language, seeing that there is no dialect containing other dialects, although not politically recognised because of many political and religious motives.

Benefits of a Tunisian Wikipedia edit

The fact of creating Tunisian Wikipedia offers to illiterate Tunisians many privileges and advantages as well. These people, over than 15 percent of Tunisian People, can, thanks to the understood Tunisian language that Wikipedia would provide, profite from the best e-source of knowledge and information in a better way. Furthermore, Tunisian people will have the occasion to discuss and express his opinion in many important and interesting subjects and topics.

Arguments in Favour edit

  • Tunisian Language is the mother tongue of Tunisian people (11 million are living in Tunisia).
  • Tunisian language has a long and complex history. It's not just an Arabic slang.
  • Kids and elders will be able to educate themselves without learning a foreign language like Arabic or French.
  • To fully understand something, you must learn it in your mother tongue, that's why, Tunisian Wikipedia will be a good way to educate normal Tunisians.
  • Most of Tunisians pupils today have problems with learning Arabic and French, and the best way to help them is providing the information in their mother tongue.
  • Launching a Tunisian Wikipedia will help in eradication of illiteracy in Tunisia.
  • Tunisian Language has many words from different origins with a different grammar, conjugation and vocabulary from Arabic without forgetting that Tunisian has a Berber substrate.
  • Tunisian language will be written in a standard form on Wikipedia using a Latin alphabet.
  • Tunisian illiterates or even tunisians who have not good skills in Former Arabic, French, English &c... will have the occasion to express themselves
  • Tunisian is understood in other nearest countries such as Libya and Algeria
  • Tunisian is known by all Tunisians. So, pages in a such language will be understood quickly and will create a kind of interaction between people and Wikipedia.
  • It is unjust that languages spoken by a few persons have their own Wikipedia, while Tunisian, which is spoken by over than 11 million people has none.
  • It is the main language used in Tunisian films, series, TV shows, songs and in all the cultural life of Tunisia.
  • It can be understood by many people of Tunisian descent, outside Tunisia (particularly in France). Tunisians in foreign countries are over 3 million (Census of the Office of Tunisians in foreign Countries ONT).
  • The same words may have different meanings in Tunisian and in Arabic. And although their origin is Arabic, their meaning in Tunisian has changed from the original.
  • Tunisian is a mix of many Mediterranean languages from Amazigh to French. So, some world may have the same spelling than Arabic words, but they originated from other languages: That's why it might be a misunderstanding of a Wikipedia article written in Arabic.
  • Many dictionaries have already been edited for this language, from the 19th century to this day.
  • Many Courses are offered to learn Tunisian which is for Tunisians "The language of ancestors and grandsons"
  • Tunisian is valuable for Tunisians. They're proud of it. And if Wikipedia accepts launching the Tunisian, many Tunisians will be encouraged to enter to the community of Wikiprojects and most of them will edit articles about Tunisian cultures as well.
  • From the early 1970s, many linguistics worked to gather the vocabulary and the rules of Tunisian such as Mr. Taieb Baccouche, former minister of Education and Spokesman in the actual Tunisian Goverment, and Saleh Mejri, and Skik.
  • Tunisian offers the chance for a cultural united identity rather than being torn in between Arabic-speaking and French-speaking population in Tunisia, while Tunisian, a language with many dialects is understood by at least 11 million Tunisians.
  • It's not a dialect. If it were a dialect, it wouldn't have different morphology, grammar, and conjugating rules.

There are many books translated into Tunisian. For example The Little Prince"" of Antoine de Saint-Exupéry was translated into Tunisian. Tunisian is a vowel-based language. The latin alphabet is the most adequate alphabet for it. There are a lot of organisations in Tunisia working on this subject. An attempt of Standardisation is the STUNdard Transcription Method stundard.wordpress.com

The official language is Arabic. But Arabic is never spoken within the population, nor anywhere else in the world as a daily-basis-language. Culturally, it has the same position of French in Tunisia. Using Tunisian as a language will unify Tunisians linguistically, they're divided into "Arabophones" and "Francophones".

Liste de quelques travaux de recherche sur la langue tunisienne :

1- Taïeb Baccouche, « Le phonème g dans les parlers arabes citadins de Tunisie », Revue tunisienne de sciences sociales, n°9 (30/31), 1972, pp. 103-137

2- Taïeb Baccouche, Hichem Skik et Abdelmajid Attia, « Travaux de phonologie. Parlers de Djemmal, Gabès et Mahdia », Cahiers du CERES, Tunis, 1969

3- Jean-Pierre Cantineau, « Analyse du parler arabe d'El-Hâmma de Gabès », Bulletin de la Société linguistique de Paris, n°47, 1951, pp. 64-105

4- Michael Gibson, Dialect Contact in Tunisian Arabic. Sociolinguistic and structural aspects, éd. Université de Reading, Reading, 1998

5- Mohamed Jabeur, A Sociolinguistic Study in Rades. Tunisia, éd. Université de Reading, Reading, 1987

6- William Marçais, « Les parlers arabes », Initiation à la Tunisie, éd. Adrien-Maisonneuve, Paris, 1950, pp. 195-219

7- Giuliano Mion, « Osservazioni sul sistema verbale dell'arabo di Tunisi », Rivista degli Studi Orientali, n°78, 2004, pp. 243-255

8- Lucienne Saada, Éléments de description du parler arabe de Tozeur, éd. Geuthner Diff., Paris, 1984

9- Hans-Rudolf Singer, Grammatik der arabischen Mundart der Medina von Tunis, éd. Walter de Gruyter, Berlin, 1984

10- Hans Stumme, Grammatik des tunisischen Arabisch, nebst Glossar, Leipzig, 1896

11- Fathi Talmoudi, The Arabic Dialect of Sûsa (Tunisia), éd. Acta Universitatis Gothoburgensis, Göteborg, 1986

12- Mohamed Bacha. Tunisian Arabic in 30 Lessons. Createspace 2013

13. Mohamed Bacha. Tunisian Arabic - English Dictionary. Createspace 2016

14. Mohamed Bacha. Eternal Classic Somgs of Tunisia. KIndle Direct Publishing 2017

15. Mohamed Bacha. 15 Children's Stories in Tunisian Arabic. KDP pulishing 2019

Source : Wikipédia.

Arguments against edit

  • Tunisian Arabic is a dialect not a language. [Reply: a language is a dialect that has gained official recognition, there are many dialects not recognised as languages however they have their Wikipedia, for example the Egyptian Wikipedia].
  • No resources are written in Tunisian, it is only spoken. How can a Tunisian Wikipedia grow without such resources? [Reply: Check partipirate.tn for example and all Tunisian-speaking magazines, e.g. Farzazzou, Tachlik, ...etc.]
  • No official scipt is used for that dialect. The choice in that discussion will not be based on any language regulation decision. [Reply: Check stundard.wordpress.com offering an efficient standardisation method. You can also use the Arabic script in the same manner as the Peace Corpse Tunisian course and dictionary.]
  • No motivated persons accept the guy proposing [Reply: you have a community of over 200 people now].
  • No official status for the Tunisian Arabic in Tunisia and any there is the world. The official language of Tunisian is Arabic. --Helmoony 03:28, 10 June 2011 (UTC) [Reply: a language is a dialect that has gained official recognition, there are many dialects not recognised as languages however they have their Wikipedia, for example the Egyptian Wikipedia][reply]
  • Oppose --U.Steele 19:39, 29 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose although I do see bible portions as early as c 1900 I feel that such a project is doomed with an Arabic encyclopaedia at it's side and only one willing participant, we need a higher litmus for borderline dialect-languages.Luciferwildcat (talk) 03:53, 31 March 2012 (UTC) [Reply: a wide community exists now, and more will join, feeling that "such a project is dommed is hardly a rational reason", the Egyptian Wikipedia is a prominent counter-example][reply]
  • Oppose --法尔汉 Aplikasi 14:20, 1 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

1. Any Arabic Slang Language is not a formal human language, it is slang ! having a Wikipedia in a slang Arabic, will lead for many problems, the main leading one : more Arab-speaking wikipedians will be starting more wikipedias in other slang dialects, therefore we shall have someday in the future more than 30 Wikipedia's in Slang dialects ! each Arab speaker would want to start a Wikipedia of his own dialect ! and we should keep in mind, that not only regional states have their own dialects, the cities within those countries and states have more specific slang's and dialects, and this will make the true value of Wikipedia drop down when it will be filled with slang's !

  • Reply: It seems that you have no knowledge about History of Tunisia and its languages, Linguistics and Mutal intelegbelity of Arabic "Dialects". So let me explain all that to you, First of all it's called Spoken Language, not a "Slang", Two, Berber, Punic language and Latin were spoken before Arabs conquest of North Africa, and later we borrowed many words from Spanish, Italian, Turkish and French. So as you see it's not a "Slang Of Arabic". That's why grammar, conjugation and even letters and vowels are different. Finally all that leads to no Mutual intelligibility between Tunisian and Modern Arabic. --GeekEmad (talk) 14:30, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

2. how valid is a Slang Dialect : lets not forget it is a dialect : meaning there is total biding code to how to spell and write or read ! a dialect differs from a man to another ! for example in slang English : the word The : is turned into da and de ! as also it is a slang : a slang doesnt have a biding grammar or what so ever ! it is just what goes with the mouth ! a slang is saying what you feel your mouth can easily say ! this is how a slang develops ! and another thing is that in slang we might have sounds that do not exist in the formal language : for example in many slang arabic's we have the sound /g/ and there is no specific way to express this sound ! sometimes they use the Farsi letters sometimes else, here are four letters that all represent /g/ in slang arabic's :چ ڠ گ ڇ, and there are many more !

  • Reply: Slang or Dialect?! you are talking about a slang, and Tunisian is actually a Spoken Language! and it didn't develop by changing how to pronounce a word, but by borrowing words, and due to Berber, the substrate language! Finally, we are using latin script, so don't worry about letters --GeekEmad (talk) 14:30, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

3. today we have a Wikipedia in a slang non-grammatical nor organized language, so why cant we have a Wikipedia in lolcat language, it already translated the bible : teh lolcat spek iz organizd !

4. if you accept to have a wikipedia in a slang language of a regional state, this means you now need to have a Wikipedia to each state in the US at least, having Wikipedia Masri, is a huge deal of turning Wikipedia into politically divided than nations and cultures contributing together, DO NOT TURN WIKIPEDIA INTO A POLITICAL DIVISION !

  • Reply: The difference between Tunisian and Modern Arabic is not like the difference between Slang of NYC and LA ! it's a bit like the difference between English and Old French. So you don't need a Wikipedia version for every state of USA --GeekEmad (talk) 14:30, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

5. in All Arab & Algerian Universities, (and rest of the world), a scientific report - scientific page, in a slang dialect, even their own slang, is not acceptable and that report/page will never be regarded as true or even scientific unless in a formal Language like Formal Arabic Language !

  • Reply: No, in Maghreb this report must be in French. But, I'll tell you why it's not accepted in Dialect, simply because it has not standard form (we are Standardizing Spoken Tunisian now) and also, because French is the language of education (not Arabic, not Berber and not Dialect). --GeekEmad (talk) 14:30, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

6. having Wikipedia in this slang language or any other will lower the validity and the standards of Wikipedia : how would something valid/true/scientific and reliable as Wikipedia have a SLANG language, there is not scientific family in the world that would recognize a slang as a valid way to express science and studying !

7.when we have this Wikipedia & many others, that is already leading to more Wikipedias in other Arabic SLANG Dialects, the Arab-speaking Developers and editors will be divided in more than 30 Wikipedia in stead of all of them developing the one true formal language Arabic Wikipedia, thus they are destroying and corrupting in stead of uniting and building wikipedia, and expanding Wikipedia Arabic

8. treating Slang Arabic as equal for other formal Languages is a discrimination against the other slang-speakers of the world, thus for example we must also have Slang Arabic English, it is as the same level as Egyptian Arabic Slang, or Algerian or Bahrani Arabic

  • Reply: As I said before, we must close the Maltese and Afrikaans Wikipedias too?! You're misleading between Slang and Dialect, there is no such thing called "Arabic English" I'll accept if if it's "Tunisian English" (a mixture if American and British English) but, it will be Mutually intelligible with English, and it has the same grammar and conjugation, Tunisian and Arabic are NOT! --GeekEmad (talk) 14:30, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

9. HAVING A WIKIPEDIA IN A SLANG IS STUPIDITY !

10. IT IS NOT A LANGUAGE , WIKIPEDIA IS GETTING FILLED WITH SLANG ARABICS, AND ARABS HAVE MANY SLANGS, THUS ARABIC SLANG WIKIPEDIA WILL NEVER END

  • Reply: If Lebanese dialect become official language of Lebanon, they will create a Lebanese Wikipedia, and if Tunisian is different of Arabic? We create a Tunisian Wikipedia!

and so I've presented my statement, with Logic and reasoning ! please respect and don not vandalize ! as I stress on you understanding #1 & #2 !

— The preceding unsigned comment was added by Asm17hawkeye (talk)

Other discussion edit

  • Since it is a fashion to write in Tunisian, it would be good to create a Tunisian Wikipedia.
We are not talking about fashion here but about an online encyclopedia that have to be updated daily.
  • Tunisian illiterates or even tunisians who have not good skills in Former Arabic, French, English &c... will have the occasion to express themselves
Illiterates in Tunisia learn Arabic to know how to read not Tunisian [1].--Helmoony 03:17, 10 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • And what's the benefit of learning Arabic in a country whose language is totally different. EnaTounsi (talk) 12:50, 6 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Tunisian Arabic is understood in other nearest countries such as Libya and Algeria
So what ? have you ever learnt about Dialect continuum--Helmoony 03:17, 10 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • The Dialect Continuum you're talking about exists WITHIN Tunisia, seeing that Tunisian has many different dialects. EnaTounsi (talk) 12:50, 6 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Tunisian Arabic is known by all Tunisians. So, pages in a such language will be understood quickly and will create a kind of interaction between people and wikipedia
There is no such serious websites on the web. Are you going to write in Arabic, Latin, Maltese script ? Are you going to use 3 5 7 9 in the words ? And who are you to decide ? is their any Academic source that has already worked on that project ? --Helmoony 03:17, 10 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Hello, First the Maltese Script is based on the Latin Script. As a vowel-based language it is more efficient to use the Latin script proposed by the STUNdard as well as other resources. Arabic Script is a possible option as well, though with possible limited efficiency. For the resources on the language check the section above. Regards. E3 (talk) 09:15, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Tunisian is a vowel-based language just like Turkish. Unlike Arabic which has only three "vowel"s, Tunisian has around 6 vowels: a - e - i - ü - ö - u. EnaTounsi (talk) 12:50, 6 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • it is unjust that languages spoken by a few people have their own wikipedia, while, Tunisian Wikipedia which is spoken by over than 11 million people have not one
Why not if they are languages ? That's not argument --Helmoony 03:17, 10 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Tunisian is a language. It can't be a dialect if it has different grammar and conjugating rules, and a VERY different vocabulary. Just have a look at how French was 800 years ago, wasn't it considered a dialect? Tunisian is a very rich AND growing language. The young generation considers it as a distinguished language. The illiterate Tunisians don't speak Arabic because it's not their mother tongue. The mother LANGUAGE is the language is the language that you don't need to learn at School, it's acquired from the early childhood. EnaTounsi (talk) 12:50, 6 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • It is the main language used in Tunisian films, series, TV shows, songs and in all the cultural life of Tunisia.
But always spoken not written because it is a dialect --Helmoony 03:17, 10 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • It is written, both in Latin and Arabic scripts. EnaTounsi (talk) 12:50, 6 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • It can be understood by many people of Tunisian descent, outside Tunisia (particularly in France, N.B.: Tunisians in foreign countries are over 3 million (Census of the Office of Tunisians in foreign Countries ONT)
3 millions outside Tunisia ? The source says 1 million [2], any way that is not an argument --Helmoony 03:17, 10 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • The same words may have different meanings in Tunisian and in Arabic. And although their origin is Arabic, their meaning in Tunisian has changed from the original.
And it is the same thing for American English and English --Helmoony 03:17, 10 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • It's not the same. The differences between British English and American English doesn't change the fact they're both English. While it's VERY obvious that Tunisian is different from Arabic. EnaTounsi (talk) 12:50, 6 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Tunisian is not Arabic and Arabic is not Tunisian. If Tunisian was Arabic, then Maltese would be Arabic too.EnaTounsi (talk) 12:50, 6 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Many dictionaries have already been edited for this language, from the 19th century to this day.
Please give references that says that those dictionaries are dealing with Tunisian Arabic as a language --Helmoony 03:17, 10 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • There is "Dictionnaire <<Karmous>> du Tunisien" by Karim Abdellatif. It clearly states Tunisian is a language.EnaTounsi (talk) 12:50, 6 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Many Courses are offered to learn Tunisian which is for Tunisians "The language of ancestors and grandsons"
So what ? Many courses of many dialects in the world are learned.
  • Does that make it a dialect?EnaTounsi (talk) 12:50, 6 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Tunisian Arabic is valuable for Tunisians. They're proud of it... and if Wikipedia accepts launching the Tunisian Wikipedia, many Tunisians will be encouraged to enter to the community of Wikiprojects and most of them will edit articles as well.
Proud about id as a dialect, what I see now that you are ther only that want to create that wiki.
  • Not as a dialect. It is very obvious that Tunisian cannot be understood by Arabs from the Middle east. Okay, so Norwegian and Swedish sound very similar, and they have the same vocabulary, does that makes them two dialects of one language?EnaTounsi (talk) 12:50, 6 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • From the early 1970s, many linguistics worked to gather the vocabulary and the rules of Tunisian such as Mr. Taieb Baccouche, Acting Minister of Education and Spokesman in the actual Tunisian Goverment and Saleh Mejri and Skik.
Give resources, and that explicetly say that Tunisian Arabic is a language --Helmoony 03:17, 10 June 2011 (UTC)7[reply]
  • An Egyptian Wikipedia does exist, it has no official status. I guess the resources you're talking about aren't necessary. Why don't YOU give us resources stating that the mother language of Tunisians is the so-called "Modern Standard Arabic"?EnaTounsi (talk) 12:50, 6 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • As for resources, there is the Peace Corps introduction to Tunisian Arabic, written in Arabic script and with a dictionary in Arabic script that one can use as a basis for writing and orthography.
  • "A language is a dialect with an army and navy" so, there aren't any benefits of discussing "type" of Tunisian (i.e. Dialect or Language)! So, for "How to write Tunisian" we are working on standardizing it using Tunisian Latin Alphabet, the last step is making a dictionary, and it won't take so much time, so the first problem is solved.
    Second problem, which is how different is Tunisian of Arabic, you can understand that by knowing that elders who can't write and read, can not understand Arabic when they hear it, and kids can not understand it even when it's written. On the other side Arabs can't understand Tunisian, especially when Tunisians use just "Tunisianized" words. So, Tunisians can't understand Arabic without learning it at school, and Arabs can't understand Tunisian. In addition, Tunisian language (or dialect) has a different, grammar, conjugation rules and vocabulary, the form of the word is also different and has no relation with Arabic Language. And that's not a "surprise", because it's known that Tunisian language is a complex mix of different languages from different families. Finally, that's why a Tunisian Wikipedia will never become a copy of Arabic Wikipedia. --GeekEmad (talk) 15:14, 26 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Compromise proposal: North African / Maghrebi Arabic Wikipedia edit

How about a Wikipedia in Maghrebi Arabic, instead of having 4 separate Wikipedias for Tunisian, Algerian, Moroccan and Libyan? This way, we do not split efforts, and we don't risk POV issues related to nationalism. The only obstacle is that right now there is no ISO code for Maghrebi Arabic language, but this is a solvable problem. --Node ue 05:15, 17 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This could also be called a Darija Wikipedia (used for Maghrebi Arabic just as for Tunisian, the latter noted by the requestor). –SJ talk | translate   , it could also be useful not to list the Arabic, as Darija and North African languages have different phonological roots than Arabic.
Possible, a standardisation attempt for Tunisian, i.e. stundard.wordpress.com is applicable for North African languages. I support the opinion of Sj stating "it could also be useful not to list the Arabic, as Darija and North African languages have different phonological roots than Arabic." and prefere naming it North African Wikipedia. The problem remains that they have different morphology sometimes and a standard North African dialect needs to be agreed upon. E3 (talk) 09:18, 23 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This does not make any sense because the three or four different dialects across the maghreb (morrocan, algerian, tunisian and lybian) are so different that it is hard for people to understand each other. Making one unified wikipedia for all of them would not serve any purpose. — The preceding unsigned comment was added by 130.54.130.227 (talk)

Although, not all mutually intelligible, they all follow the same root paterns and morphology (grammar), contrarly to the middle eastern arabic (probably due to ancient substratums like berber/punic/latin) and have mostly the same loan words. Theoretically if we can generate a "midpoint" maghrebi language, it should be sufficently understandable for all Maghrebis.92.155.136.126

Localisation Update edit

Northwest African Arabic edit

Please, take a look at Requests for new languages/Wikipedia Northwest African Arabic and discuss there about the possibility to create Northwest African Arabic (Maghrebi) Wikipedia. --Millosh 23:14, 18 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

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