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Quenya Wikipedia

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submitted verification final decision
  This proposal has been closed as part of a reform of the request process.
This request has not necessarily been rejected, and new requests are welcome. This decision was taken by the language committee in accordance with the Language proposal policy.

The closing committee member provided the following comment:

This discussion was created before the implementation of the Language proposal policy, and it is incompatible with the policy. Please open a new proposal in the format this page has been converted to (see the instructions). Do not copy discussion wholesale, although you are free to link to it or summarise it (feel free to copy your own comments over). —{admin} Pathoschild 23:02:22, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Proposal summary
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Discussion

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  • Notes/comments:
    • There is enough material known in Quenya, Tolkien's Elvish language, to start a Wikipedia in Quenya. You have one for Klingon, why not Quenya? I'd like to start such a project.--Firsfron 01:54, 13 Jan 2005 (UTC)
      • I concur. --Oldak Quill 18:23, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC)
      • I'd enjoy working on it; but are there copyright issues? Catherine 02:45, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)
        • That is a good question, Catherine. However, there are Tolkien fanzines which publish Quenya language materials without copyright violation. There are even some Quenya language lessons in both book and electronic format. Writing in Quenya isn't the same as copying large passages of TLOTR.--Firsfron 05:31, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)
      • Agreed! Quenya's grammar is in any case enough to compile an encyclopedia for the things in the Middle-earth.--Bellenion 11:51, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)
        • Is that so? As far as I know, Quenya's complete grammar was never set out in stone anywhere, just bits and pieces; a Quenya wikipedia would have to use not Quenya, but a 'pseudoquenya', in order to have a full grammar. Almafeta 07:33, 17 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]
      • But Wikipedia should not be confined to Middle-earth. A-giâu 11:51, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)
      • I am afraid I must disagree with you, Firsfron. Actually we know far too little about Quenya; its grammar isn't even complete, and there are so many empty spaces in its vocabulary... There is one fundamental difference with Kingon: the inventor of Klingon finally published the principles of his language and allowed its learnes to work freely with it. Tolkien's heirs are not likely to publish everything he wrote on Quenya, Sindarin or any other of his constructed languages within a few years. But I soppose you know all this better than I do, so if you think it is possible, there is no reason for any objection.--Caesarion 10:36, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)
        • While there are big gaps in the vocabulary, Caesarion, I don't think these gaps are insurmountable. Creative Quenya language writers can always come up with a solution! :)--Firsfron 05:31, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)
    • What script do you prefer for this Wikipedia? Tengwar or Latin?--Caesarion 11:46, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)
      • I think it would be in Latin--Bellenion 05:30, 10 Mar 2005 (UTC)
      • We could use Tengwar, there's a request to include it in the Unicode specs.
        • I would prefer Latin script, despite its non-authenticity. The contributors already have to take so many steeples: learning a language that no-one speaks, learning a lot of complicated grammar they're often unfamiliar with, coping with a chronical lack of words... Tengwar rather than Latin would be just another barrier. Moreover, most users would recieve the letters as bricks on their screen. But... maybe someone can write a converting program? Caesarion 12:38, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
      • I believe it's possible to automatically transliterate from the ASCII/Latin representation of Quenya, either to Unicode/Tengwar, or to an image containing the Tengwar. So editing in Latin, and auto-converting to Tengwar later if possible seems like a good idea, means that you can type on a standard keyboard instead of pasting unicode symbols, and might reduce typos. 213.78.93.166 16:26, 22 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • I understand that there are only about three hundred words in Quenya. Combine this with the fact that the grammar is very incomplete, and sometimes folks ideas on Quenya clash because of Tolkien's contradictory notes.... how CAN there be a Quenya wiki? If someone shows how it is a viable option, by perhaps building on some of the work that happened for the Lord of the Rings film (where some new Quenya stuff was created), then I will vote yes. If not, I will vote no.BryanAJParry
  • Wikicities:Lambengolmor is aiming on having an encyclopedia in Quenya. I don't see any point in making this a Wikimedia project. It doesn't meet our goals of providing free content to everyone in their own language since this isn't anyone's native language. Angela 20:47, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)
    • Neither is Esperanto, Latin or Lojban. See for my further opinion on this case under Sindarin. Caesarion 22:05, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)
      • I would be careful about saying that too quickly. Esperanto in fact does have native speakers, as for Latin, and Lojban, I doubt it, but it's more possible on Lojban side than Latin side. --Puellanivis 02:13, 19 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Having done some research into Quenya, it appears it has a couple of thousand words. If the proposer, or elsewho, can come up with a proposal of what words would be "acceptable" and what grammar would be acceptable, and could muster an active group of supporters to work on a meta-wiki version (like we have in Scots), I would lend my verbal support to this language. BryanAJParry 23:41, 15 Jun 2005 (GMT)
  • [http://www.langmaker.com/db/mdl_quenya.htm This site] lists Quenya as having a lexicon of 2,241. That may be sufficient for an encyclopedia. 66.177.138.113 03:25, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
  • Support - If someone/a small group of folks are actually dedicated to sifting the qenya and quenya vocab lists, and writing in a POTENTIALLY simplistic style (due to the constrants of a few thousand roots), then by all means it should go ahead. All the project needs now is some contributors who can speak and write Quenya. I would say any Quenya wikipedia should be in the Roman transliteration, instead of tengwar or sarati. BryanAJParry
  • Support - it would be much easier to find out the level of support for a Quenya encyclopedia if it were available to edit, rather than a discussion at an obscure corner of meta-wikipedia. If the encyclopedia were to be created, then we could show the link to some linguists and see who edits - the worst that could happen is lack of edits leading to a Klingon-style vote for deletion in 3 years or so. 213.78.93.166 16:26, 22 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • I agree with 213.78.93... just above. Having this debate on a, frankly, obscure corner of metawiki is gonna be forever fruitless. Best bet, if you ask me, is to set up a TEST wikipedia and get it advertised. Leave it for a few months, and we will see if a community is attracted to it. If that be the case, then it will get a wiki of its own. Altho, I must insist that if it were to be created, it should be in the Roman script, and not tengwar. BryanAJParry 18:31, 17 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak Support - For the practical purpose it doesn't make any sense to create a general wikipedia in Quenya (and I highly doubt whether it'd succeed at all). I support it only if it'd be a Middle-Earth confined encyclopedia.. a good article on Valinor in Quenya is much more meaningful for those who would bother learn this language than an article on nuclear physics. - Caffelice (ko/tpi)
  • Strong Support - Many among here who had taken time to learn Tolkien's glossopoeist languages will acknowledge that its attempted 'speakers' are few and far between, let alone those interested enough in the professor's works to actually spend time getting used to his imaginary tongues and try to immerse themselves within them. As Quenya was not even half finished in construction when its creator passed to the Halls of Mandos, this also leaves those interested in the language in a very difficult situation, not knowing to go on and attempt to carry on the journey which Tolkien first begun, or to rest with the fragments which survived in order to not displease the spirit of the man who had inspired so many.
This makes it impossible to have a sort of formal 'academy' for any Tolkien- related languages, since everyone is sure to have their own linguistic tastes. However I believe the creation of a new Wikipedia in Quenya would do more than simply become a new translatorial duty- it would give chances for philological experts and Tolkien enthusiasts to develop the language, though perhaps not always exactly as Tolkien would himself intend, and carry on the pilgrimage which has been the delight and dedication of this great scholar. The past has shown that Tolkien himself delighted in helping his enthusiasts to 'play around' with his language and attempt to unravel its grammatical structure, and I personally believe that his spirit will also be comforted when he discovered that his 'Mythology for England' has also been constructed and enriched by the minds of the many, though perhaps not exactly similar to his, yet enriched in the fact that it has become a true myth- people are continually working and constructing upon it, telling it with different voices. In other words we now have a choice- to follow Tolkien slavishly with the records given, afraid to look beyond his wake, or run free upon the lands of Middle- Earth, and depict the distant stars by ourselves.
I believe the many Tolkien enthusiasts out there will not be so impertinent as to marr the great man's beautiful languages by irrelevant suggestions, and I believe the few experts who also wish to join the game will also be able to keep a 'check', according to their own measure, upon that the language is developing appropriately. I know that there also many upon the media that claims this as a betrayal of Tolkien's legacy, but I would argue to the adverse, since Tolkien himself expressly wished that for Quenya and Middle- Earth to truly go 'ever on and on,' people and minds must work upon and enrich them with many ideas, exploring the distant lands under the sun. In the introduction to The Fellowship of the Ring he expressed eloquently his dislike of allegory, depicting that as a cruel enforcement of the author's mind upon his readers, and I think a similar case may very well apply here. Tolkien would not wish his developments of the language to be enforced upon others; he wish them to be creative in their own sense, as long as it is relatively intellectual and within the appropriate limits.
The development of Quenya may perhaps be the best one with which to start, since out of all Tolkien's invented languages this one is the richest in information and perhaps even in interest. And yes I agree- a Quenya Wikipedia may not always be a completely didactic effort, since articles on Quantum Mechanics etc. will not easily be able to be adapted into its environment, and may be even against Tolkien's wishes to do so. For Quenya was not a tongue made to suit the needs of the sciences, but that of natural environment, romantic loveliness of trees, flowers and stars. Some of the Mythological difficulties themselves might show here also, concerning Tolkien's ideas of the beginning of the Universe, the Sun and the moon etc.
But then again invented languages are wrapped up in a world of their own. As far as I know there is also a Klingon Wikipedia, which does not exactly strike me as sounding like the right type of language for cellular biology, either. The differences between these languages and their relatively environments make them more suitable than any other to delve into certain areas, but not others. Perhaps we should form a particular section for these 'specialised' Wikipedias- where enthusiasts may freely explore the particular themes of their specialisation without worrying about whether they will fit into the scenery of something entirely irrelevant and 'other'. Or we could probably form something along the lines of Wikilingual- a department that focuses on philological developments and their related articles, so these languages would obtain freer developments without experiencing translational difficulties like those detailed above. --Luthinya 12:41 06 February 2006
  • oppose - While the idea sounds good, contributors would probably get bored with it eventually and it would probably get abandoned after a while like the fate of other conlang wikipedias. It would also be limited by the lack of technology and scientific vocabulary in Quenya that encyclopedias require. Furthermore, it is unlikely that the wikipedia would be of much practical use except to keep Quenya enthusiasts entertained.--Weldingfish 08:23, 10 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strongly oppose - Wikimedia Foundation, afa I understand, has no resource both finantial, technical and human for spending for fictional language(s) which could be support by many enthusiasists. --Aphaia 08:29, 10 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - This process could help consolidate the work done on the language and help put the language on firm footing for general use...as one of the most beautiful languages to speak, having learned some of it myself, I think it is worth a strong try. --User:Judgesurreal777
  • Strongly Support, and willing to work on it. I suggest Latin alphabet instead of Tengwar, at least in the beginning, although I'm not opposite at all to idea to edit pages in Latin, but to automatically convert them to Tengwar when click on Save page - of course, if there is somebody to make such an automatic converter. :) --George D. Bozovic 21:27, 26 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
How can you know that it is incomplete? Do you actually speak Quenya, have you ever learned it? I really don't see how can people who don't know anything about Quenya say that it's incomplete. How come you know that? Really... You just think that, don't you? Please, do not make statements about things that you don't know for sure! --George D. Bozovic 12:59, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
  • I've studied Quenya some, and I have studied Tolkien to no little extent. The Quenya lexicon he left is quite small (I believe it is less than 3,000 words); suitable for Middle Earth poetry, but little else. Your beligerence in accusing me doesn't disprove my points. The Jade Knight 04:17, 16 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Much as I like constructed languages ánd Tolkien's work, I can't see the informative value of such a project. IMO a Wikipedia should be created if a language a) a significant number of native speakers, or b) at least a considerable number of people who know it, and would be interested in having it. In addition to that, there's the problem that both languages (Q and S) are far from complete, and different opinions about the coinage of new words can cause quite some flaming. The way this looks, a Quenya Wikipedia would become a hobby project for three, four people at most, who in all likeliness will also be the only ones who regularly read it. This does not mean that I wouldn't like to see such a project realised - it's just that I don't see it happening. For that matter, there are several others wikis where you could instantly start creating a encyclopedia in Quenya, without any requests or other formalities. If that would happen, and it becomes a success, then I'll certainly change my vote. --IJzeren Jan 14:07, 27 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong oppose against the weird untertaking of using a fictional (fantasy) language for providing non-fictional (information) content. It's just not workable. --ARBE0 14:04, 17 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strongly Support. When I was learning Quenya and Sindarin I was limited to reading what little I could find of Tolkien's works in those languages (LOTR, Sil, UFT). I am sure others out there have experienced the same thing. A wikipedia in these languages would also give Tolkien afficianados a chance to write about his works and share their enthusiasm in the lanuages he worked so hard on.
The educational benefits of Quenya and Sindarin are not to be underestimated; Tolkien put years of work into his languages, and every detail was painstakingly created to make them as logical (if not more so, being invented languages) as traditional ('real') languages, not to mention the fact that countless studies have shown that learning languages make people smarter! If you've exhausted the English-French-Spanish-Italian-Russian-Latin-Greek, why not go for Sindarin and Quenya?
In my opinion, if there are people willing to work on it, there should be no reason for NOT creating a Quenya wiki. -- Editor at Large 02:28, 18 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • STRONGLY OPPOSE not a real language, not useful, theres no audiance or native speakers to look info up, this is pure pork-barrel bullshit. and klingon has been disabled. Qrc2006 02:44, 18 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • A test Wikipedia has been opened in the Incubator: [1]. --George D. Bozovic 03:20, 20 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • I support. In the worst case it will die. What harm can it do? Gubbubu 14:33, 21 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - fictional language -Nagytibi 14:42, 21 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Support As per a user said before, Tolkein put a lot of work into it. I belive it is worth it, and I would contitribute (After reading up on my Quenya). Aiya Wikipedia Elenion Ancalima! Emmanovi 17:50, 21 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Support Though I agree with the suggestion above that it be an "all things tolkien" wiki. Those interested in Quenya are rather likely to be interested such things. For an additional thought, see my vote below under sindarin. - Jc37 23:18, 21 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. There's an Esperanto WP, so why don't let this begin? I agree with all above that say this will be high tended to be a "Wikitolkienpedia", but I hope editors will be compromised in making the most complete possible encyclopaedia. Another thing to care of is to standarize spelling and to put some criteria on grammar (I mean, controversial grammatical topics like pronouns and so on...). --200.120.115.68 20:32, 22 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Let me cite myself: The man who created them [Quenya and Sindarin, of course] is well known and his works are known even better. His works are not just a part of the British culture, they are also a part of the universal culture of the entire mankind. Of course, if I created an artifact language and asked for a Wikipedia in it, it would certainly be rejected, and that’s the way it should be. But if my work becomes very popular as Tolkien’s, and if a great number of people start learning my artifact language, it will become a part of the universal culture and a Wikipedia in it may be opened. So Quenya and Sindarin are not just some artifact languages – they are part of our culture. A conversation can be made between a Russian who knows Quenya, but doesn’t know French, and a Frenchman who knows Quenya, but doesn’t know Russian. Don’t you think that such a language which works almost like Esperanto should have a Wikipedia in it? Beside, Quenya and Sindarin Wikipedias would be very interesting projects. They could show that Wikipedia is not just a birocratic project full with numerous rules and prohibitions, but also a community of people who work together on things that they are interested in. (Which is, as I believe, a little bit more important.) --George D. Bozovic 17:25, 23 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Tentative (but not weak) oppose. I believe that the difficulty with "fictional languages" (in which I am including Quenya and Klingon, but not, precisely speaking, Toki Pona) is that their form is derived from a particular authoritative source and that source is not consistently available (and, generally, not available at all) in writing Wikipedia. Therefore, if any part of the language is found to be incomplete, it is unknown how anything could be added to the language which would be considered legitimate. Now, I suspect that Quenya is the best-developed of the fictional languages and is, therefore, the best candidate for having a Wikipedia. However, I opposed based on the comments above which make it appear that the language is nevertheless not complete. I doubt that a vocabulary of less than 3000 words will be sufficient to write a modern encyclopedia. As for the idea of having a compendium of information specifically about Middle-earth and Tolkiana, that is not the mission statement of Wikipedia or any other currently-existing Wikimedia project, and so it should be rejected as a matter of course.—Nat Krause 20:35, 23 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support I think it should be good. --Agari 20:47, 23 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support But let some lessons will be organized, just for wikipedians can understand what is written))) --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 21:37, 23 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support as nominator. (I didn't know this request was even still active) --Firsfron 22:57, 23 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Support Great idea! I think if we allowed neologisms it would be fairly easy to translate some articles at least, and I'd be very willing to contribute 172.188.27.244 10:29, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Quenya is not developed enough to allow this to work, and as it is copyrighted it cannot be further developed. Much as I like the Tolkien languages, I can see no merit in a Wikipedia in a language which lacks the necessary vocabulary and grammar, and is spoken by no-one. 217.70.211.10 12:03, 6 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strongly Support And will be an active contributor. Wikimedia claims to be working towards "a world in which every single person is given free access to the sum of all human knowledge" and I believe that Quenya is an active part of this. It is a beautiful language which I think we would all benefit from having an encyclopedia written in. At least, can we give it a chance? I'm willing to, and I am sure there are many others who would be too. Simple English forms a valuable resource with a limited number of words and I see no reason why the (not so) limited vocabularly would hassle us too much. Qua 203.100.220.136 16:52, 24 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Quenya may very well be a "dead" language, but so is it even in the Tolkein mythology. It was intended to be much like the Latin of our age. Seeing as how Latin must constantly deal with new things being invented, and new places being founded, I don't see any issue here for a Quenya Wikipedia. As an example, what is the name of New York in Latin? Well, someone/some people made it up, and through concensus, it is now Novum Eboracum (with some variation on the later part). I could see a Quenya wikipedia operating in much the same way, with a word list or such building as people need it, and based on concensus. The same holes in Quenya grammar also exist in Latin, such as the word AREPO, which is only attested in the SATOR AREPO Palindrome, and thus we only have a single attested example of it in a single case. We can make an assumption of how the word is handled, but issue is that it's nominative *could* be something like *AREPIPILLOPOLOGUS, and just be highly highly irregular. We don't actually know. Much of the Latin used today is "pseudo" Latin, because it is unattested, but that doesn't make it wrong. I say, if there are people who are sufficiently aware of Quenya to drive a concensus clarification of grammar, and vocabulary, then all the better, and I hope them luck. I certainly look forward to pointing someone to http://qya.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frodo_Baggins --Puellanivis 02:11, 19 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Sindarin Wikipedia

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submitted verification final decision
  This proposal has been rejected.
This decision was taken by the language committee in accordance with the Language proposal policy based on the discussion on this page.

The closing committee member provided the following comment:

Denied for other reasons.
Proposal summary
  • Language details: Sindarin (sjn ISO 639-3)
  • Editing community: —
    List your user name if you're interested in editing the wiki. Add "N" next to your
    name if you are a native speaker of this language.
  • Relevant pages: —
  • External links:
    —
Please read the handbook for requesters for help using this template correctly.
  • I propose that there be an Elvish Wikipedia, based on J. R. R. Tolkien's Sindarin language. —JarlaxleArtemis 01:38, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Discussion

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  • Notes and comments:
    • In tLotR, Sindarin is the language actually spoken by the elves, while Quenya is a classical language. As with Quenya, there is just enough material to compile a Wikipedia, though analogies with Quenya and primitive Elvish roots in order to enhance the vocabulary may be necessary.
Oh, I see. So Quenya is a classical language, and Sindarin is actually spoken by the elves! I just hope that you don't really expect the elves to come and edit Sindarin Wikipedia. :) --Ђорђе Д. Божовић 21:10, 28 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • JarlaxleArtemis posted this request on the talk page. Since there is a proposal for Quenya as well, which was succesful in gaining supporters, I decided to move it to the article itself. Caesarion 11:22, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
    • Oppose: No fictional language should be legitimate Wikimedia language. --Aphaia | Translate Election | ++ 08:18, 3 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
      • Then you disagree with the mighty guys in the project. They already granted a request for Klingon. A language is always a culture bearer, and as long as you find enough contributors and have enough potential readers it makes sense to open a wikipedia in them. Not that I think this language request has priority, but it must be considered seriously, just as any other request. Caesarion 14:40, 3 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
      • I second that. This is like saying that languages like Esperanto should have their WPs closed down - or saying that Braille or sign language should be made illegal. NazismIsntCool 01:41, 8 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
      • Both of you intentonally or unintentionally mistook my argument, thus state false to me. I oppose fictional languages like Sindaran, not "international auxiliary languages" like esperanto. --Aphaia | Translate Election | ++ 02:11, 8 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
        • No, you were only misunderstoood by NAzismIsntCool. It is very true that there are already Wikipedias in fictional languages (Klingon), and in other languages that don't claim to be international auxiliary languages (Lojban). --Node ue 03:40, 10 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
          • Also, there are people who speak only those languages, probably because it might be part of some weird religion (hopefully not a closed sect of Romanian Orthodox,) will be discriminated against if people like Aphaia are going to go on about not having fictional languages on Wikimedia. If Morse code was banned, transferring messages from ship to ship would be difficult. If Braille was banned, it would be hard for the blind to read. If sign language was banned, it would be hard for the deaf to communicate. If tadoma was banned, then people who are deaf AND blind would be hard-pushed to be able to guess what people are saying. If Esperanto or Klingon or Quenya or anything along these lines are banned, religions who say prayers in those languages won't be able to make do. If you don't re-open the TokiPona Wikipedia, then those guys are going to have a hard time. If T-shirts saying "ROMANIA SUCKS" are banned in schools (which I think they should be, considering I was born in Romania,) then some students will complain after they are suspended for wearing them and expressing their opinion. If Subway was banned, we'd be in for another epidemic of obesity. NazismIsntCool 04:53, 11 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
              • On a topic unrelated to having a Sindarin WP but related to my last post in this section, I think there are some school districts in the Washington DC area which ban T-shirts with slogans like "DOWN WITH ROMANIA," "FUCK ROMANIA," "ROMANIA IS GAY" and "ROMANIA SUCKS," especially the "FUCK ROMANIA" one. Scott Gall 04:43, 13 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
                • Scott, this is irrelevant to the subject indeed. This is a page to discuss the several requests posted here. Discussions like these must be held on user talk pages, or over private e-mail. Btw, whe aren't talking about banning Sindarin from public life, just about whether or not it should be granted a Wikipedia (which I think it should, bykt). Caesarion 07:59, 13 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
                  • So should I. I wouldn't ban it from public life or deny it a wiki. It is fictional, but it should get a wiki - just to please those monolingual in Sindarin. Scott Gall 05:17, 14 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
            • I agree, Julia. And also, if Scribe was banned, I'd circumvent the ban at first, but there are other New Zealand rappers out there, like Savage, Fast Crew, and all that. If McDonalds was banned, there's also other fast food places, unless they were banned as well, and then I'd have to go to some gang-run joint in an alley full of graffiti. It takes one to make, but it takes the right qualifications to break - anybody can start it, but only the arch-pigs can ban it. It's just like in a Wikipedia article - anyone can create, but only an admin can delete. Scott Gall 05:08, 11 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oppose As far as I'm concerned I think fictional languages don't qualify for Wikipedias. While conlangs intended for serving as international auxiliary languages might have their justification, there will never be a sufficient number of people who are willing and able to create a full-scale, usable encyclopedia in a language that's completely made up solely for literary (i e. entertainment) purposes. Just think about the Klingon WP - it's an utter flop. Arbeo 12:59, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
      • You don't know what goes on behind the closed doors of wikis. Scott Gall 08:00, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
        • I don't have to. Looking at the outcome will do. Wikipedia is not about "closed doors" 195.30.184.97 14:48, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)
  • Oppose for the same reasons an Quenya. Klingon should be shut down to prevent its existence being used as an excuse for more requests for constructed languages. Angela 22:33, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)
    • I beg you pardon? Are we to understand from this statement that no constructed language should have a Wikipedia? Should even the Esperanto Wikipedia be locked? Or are you talking about fictional languages only? If so, please write fictional instead of constructed; this can prevent a lot of misunderstanding. But now a defence, probably in vain. I think a language is something that does not exist in any physical sense. It exists in the mind of a speaker, in neurological and psycological forms, or it has a very latent ontological status being preserved in documents only. Some languages do not exist in people's minds in the very prominent form of native language. Thus Esperanto and, for instance, Quenya are alike. Those languages do not belong to an anthropological community. But yet, they are culture bearers. They have a complex of cultural features attached to them by association, be it the ideal of world not dominated by a language of a leading nation, be it the desire for a smooth and unambiguous communication, or be it an elaborate fictional universe shared by many. They are, as long as there is a community that keeps them alive, a very part of the phenomenon we call multilingualism and hail so unanimously here on Wikimedia. Star Trek's Klingon and Tolkien's Elvish languages are learnt and understood by many, and have a fictional universe attached to them shared by even many more people. Thus they are real culture beares. That is why, in my opinion, the Klingon Wikipedia should remain open and Quenya and Sindarin Wikipedias should not be disgraced in advance. Caesarion 22:02, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)
      • My opposition was to having more wikis created in constructed languages, not to the ones we already have (other than Klingon). Please see the talk page for my comments on why Klingon shouldn't be used as an excuse to create similar wikis. Angela 23:20, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)
  • Oppose. NazismIsntCool, please stop using Braille or Morse as examples here. They are codes, not languages. When you write Braille, the language you write in is english/french/whatever, not "Braille language". Secondly, nobody is planning to "ban" a language. You are free to communicate in any language you wish. If you want an encyclopedia in Sindarin, you can build one right now. That however does not necessarily mean that it can be a part of Wikipedia. I agree with Angela that the Klingon WP is no reason to start a Sindarin WP. IMO, it is rather a reason NOT to start a Sindarin edition. --Stw 23:12, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
    • I suppose I can't argue with that - Braille is actually a script that blind people use. My Wikipedia userpage says that I have already lost some of my vision and will probably need to learn Braille within the next five years - not that you can start a Wikipedia in it. NazismIsntCool 09:40, 3 Jul 2005 (UTC)
  • I think a major point is: does Sindarin have the vocabulary to cover all possible subjects? If not, how can it be expanded (i.e.: who is authorized to expand it) ? (Btw. I am in favour of a Sindarin Wikipedia, although I do not speak Sindarin myself)--Jorgengb 23:52, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)
  • In Favour. There is no actually difference between either Sindarin or Quenya and Esperanto. Tolkein created the former, Zamenhof created the latter. Non of them are "fictional". I assume a "fictional language" is one which doesn't exist. As there are people who speak and write the Evlish languages and can communicate meaninfully in them the they are just as *real* and just as legitimate as Esperanto or for that matter English. --217.153.193.6 09:53, 20 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • In Favour See my comments above in the Quenya section. BryanAJParry
  • Oppose - Incomplete fictional language. Note Klingon Wikipedia has been locked for some time. --Pmsyyz 20:06, 14 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strongly oppose--Aphaia 08:29, 10 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support --Ђорђе Д. Божовић 15:30, 1 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
As a proof that Sindarin (as well as Quenya) can be used like any other "real" language, and a proof that there are people who use it: [2].
  • Oppose; Sindarin is particularly incomplete, and I would shudder to see as extreme a reconstruction as would be required here. The Jade Knight 21:41, 2 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - it's incomplete. Michał P. 20:21, 15 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - make a wiktionary for sindarin, not a wikipedia 555 20:53, 15 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose for the same reasons as stated in the request for a WP in Quenya. --IJzeren Jan 14:08, 27 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • I support. In the worst case it will die. What harm can it do? Gubbubu 14:34, 21 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - Incomplete fictional language, make a wiktionary for it. -Nagytibi 14:36, 21 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Support - For same reasons as Quenya. If one is approved, I see no reason for the other not to be. And are we calling Quenya and Sindarin Fictional or Constructed? The two are distinct. Emmanovi 17:57, 21 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Support FOr the same reasons and with the same thoughts as my vote above for Quenya. Just a thought, but is there any reason why any specific article in this new wiki can't be written in Quenya or Sindarin, and combine the two languages into a single wiki? Also, for at least the Sindarin, I would be in favour of the Cirth-Angerthas runes. If for no other reason than they equate closer to latin script. - Jc37 23:18, 21 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Hm, I'm sceptic about two different languages mixed up in a single Wikipedia. As for scripts and dialects - they can be combined. Those Wikipedias in languages which feature two or more similar dialects or scripts, such as Serbian or Chinese, use a code for switching between the versions. Thus, the Quenya Wikipedia can have both Noldorin and Vanyarin, Latin as well as Tengwar. And even Telerin (in both Latin and Tengwar), why not? That's because the differences are not big with these and it is easy to track them. And, of course, these versions wouldn't be combined, but separated by a code/programme, and users could be able to choose which version to show. --George D. Bozovic 17:18, 23 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • It would be nice if a Sindarin test Wikipedia was opened in the Incubator. The two Wikipedias could cooperate. Unfortunately, I'm still learning Sindarin and can't use it yet. --George D. Bozovic 22:21, 23 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak Oppose Sindarin is not developed enough to allow this to work, and as it is copyrighted it cannot be further developed. Much as I like the Tolkien languages, I can see no merit in a Wikipedia in a language which lacks the necessary vocabulary and grammar, and is spoken by no-one. 217.70.211.10 12:03, 6 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak SupportCameron Nedland 23:15, 7 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
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