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Requesting support with tricky translations

I have been crafting the pages for the Wiki Loves Living Heritage project. They contain transclusions, preloads, and a bit of scripting that may make translating more difficult. I would like to have some assistance in choosing the best practices for some tricky cases, including

• Translating a custom-made horizontal menu. How are templates translated? The page name is often used as a variable.
• How to serve rtl languages with any custom-made parts?

I might also need to be reminded of some more basic conventions in translating to make translating less error-prone (such as variables).

Thank you for your help!

Susanna Ånäs (Susannaanas) 🦜 10:15, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

• @Susannaanas: moved this from Meta:Requests for help from a sysop or bureaucrat, this is the translators forum. — xaosflux ^Talk 15:03, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

  Thank you, I just found this page myself as well. I will add specific questions here if anyone is willing to address a specific dilemma.

  • What is the best practice to link to headers on the page to maintain the links in the translation process?
  • Info: I was able to translate the transcluded menu and it worked well so far.
  • Where can I announce all the bits and pieces (such as the templates) that need translation? What is the right channel and amount of notifications per project?

  Susanna Ånäs (Susannaanas) 🦜 07:37, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

  How to serve rtl languages with any custom-made parts?

  If you use TemplateStyles, CSS should automatically be “flipped” (left and right switched) when used on RTL pages. It’s useful to double-check it on an actual RTL page, though.

  What is the best practice to link to headers on the page to maintain the links in the translation process?

  You can just use the English header names, the software automatically adds the English anchors on translated pages.

  Where can I announce all the bits and pieces (such as the templates) that need translation? What is the right channel and amount of notifications per project?

  You can create an aggregate group containing all the bits and pieces, and link it somewhere on the project page (you may use {{Help translate}}) – this is an appropriate channel and definitely not a too large amount of notifications. You may also use Special:NotifyTranslators; however, this is quite excessive as it sends notifications to all subscribed translators. In my experience, NotifyTranslators is usually used only when the translation has a deadline (e.g. a newsletter, which should be translated before distribution), not for project pages. —Tacsipacsi (talk) 10:07, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

  Thank you so much, it is really useful information!

  Now I ran into an emergency. I marked for translation two transcluded templates [1] and [2] which are sent to Listeria. This does not work (see the result: Wiki Loves Living Heritage/Inventories). I think solving the problem might require a lot of work from many people, and therefore some other workaround might be better. Can you help me switch off the translation, I have not done that. Susanna Ånäs (Susannaanas) 🦜 10:28, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

  The problem has gone away but I don't yet know why. So if nothing has been turned off yet, there is no longer need to do that. – Susanna Ånäs (Susannaanas) 🦜 11:14, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

I have an evaluation in the template Template:Wiki Loves Living Heritage/Main navigation to automatically add a submenu.

{{#ifexist: Template:{{PAGENAME}}/Sub | {{{{PAGENAME}}/Sub}} |}}

When I translate the page, I create Wiki_Loves_Living_Heritage/Elements/fi and that evaluation no longer reads "Elements". Is there a way to continue using this method with translation or do I need to hard-code the values?

– Susanna Ånäs (Susannaanas) 🦜 12:46, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

i.e. is there a way to reference the untranslated page in MediaWiki syntax

Wiki_Loves_Living_Heritage/Elements/fi --> Elements, not fi? Susanna Ånäs (Susannaanas) 🦜 13:55, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

OK, I found {{#titleparts: {{FULLPAGENAME}} | 2 }}/Sub so this is solved. Susanna Ånäs (Susannaanas) 🦜 04:57, 14 January 2023 (UTC)

Next up. I would like to create paginated files for long Listeria results. I would like there to be a master page that is translated and transcluded subsections that are automatically translated as they receive their translated values from Wikidata. I am planning to use numbered files for the list parts, arranged hierarchically under the master page, and use parser functions to create the menu. However, I cannot bend my mind around how to create the combination files and link to them. I wonder if Lua (which I don't master at least not yet) could solve it or if the problem is more fundamental. – Susanna Ånäs (Susannaanas) 🦜 05:09, 14 January 2023 (UTC)

1. You will find some advices at Meta:Internationalization guidelines.
2. Tvar names must be unique inside a same unit, but you may reuse the same name in different units in the same page. Having the name "1" as first tvar in the unit allows to make keyboard shortcut and tvar name consistent for translators.
3. When you edit a template, it may take a while for pages to be updated (“purged”). When you mark a template for translation this may take a more time again.

About your last issue, I don’t understand what you call “files”. Are they media on Commons? -- Pols12 (talk) 16:45, 14 January 2023 (UTC)

1. Thank you again for the very useful advice!
2. This is good to know. I wonder if I should now keep them once I have created them and not change. I assume it would confuse the existing translations.
3. Good to know, no need to panic immediately.
4. I meant to say "paginated pages" or "pagination" instead of "paginated files". Sorry for that. I already created them in https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wiki_Loves_Living_Heritage/Elements but it would be great if the subpages would not need to be translated. There's nothing more to translate than what has already been translated in the first/parent page. The subpages will automatically be translated if the page has been marked for translation.

Susanna Ånäs (Susannaanas) 🦜 14:40, 15 January 2023 (UTC)

If you change the tvar names, all translations must be updated. It is maybe not worthwhile, indeed.

Actually, Elements/2 is not transcluded in Elements, so I’m still not sure to understand what you want. Be that as it may, the best pattern is probably to make subpages translatable, and they will be transcluded in the right language in parent page, as templates are. We can reverse this process with some hack like {{Tunit}} (which can transclude a unit from another page), but it is a bit costly and it does not support tvar. -- Pols12 (talk) 15:18, 15 January 2023 (UTC)

Currently Elements/2 is not transcluded in Elements but separate page. Would it be ok to mark it for translation even if there's nothing to translate, only language-aware content? Or would the page need to be transcluded in order to be "told" to display in the chosen language? – Susanna Ånäs (Susannaanas) 🦜 06:17, 16 January 2023 (UTC)

We can mark the page with only the page title as a unit, but each translation page will still need to be manually created (translating the page title). For this purpose, just add an empty <translate></translate> tag pairs somewhere, then you’ll be able to mark the page for translation. -- Pols12 (talk) 22:45, 16 January 2023 (UTC)

Thank you, I have a feeling this already solves the challenge! – Susanna Ånäs (Susannaanas) 🦜 15:32, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

I must pause the translation of the main pages, changes are expected. How can I do that? How can I help rearrange existing translations after restart if text has been moved to another place? – Susanna Ånäs (Susannaanas) 🦜 10:38, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

1. You can discourage translation from Special:PageTranslation (do not remove from translation, only discourage).
2. When you move some text, keep the unit marker (<!--T:xx-->) along with the text.
   • Unit markers must be followed with a unique white space (space or new line); except for heading where the marker is after a space character at the end of the line.
   • A marker must follow an empty line (two new line characters) or an opening translate tag; except for heading where the empty new line is before the heading line (since the marker is at end of the line).
   • Remove the marker if the content has significantly changed: a new marker will be automatically re-added while marking the page.
   • Be careful a misplaced marker would switch unit contents.

--Pols12 (talk) 13:35, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

Big thanks! <3 – Susanna Ånäs (Susannaanas) 🦜 06:56, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

I need to move content to another page. Is there any way to keep the existing translations? They are not that many, but some exist, and asking to do the work again is not nice. – Susanna Ånäs (Susannaanas) 🦜 09:42, 5 February 2023 (UTC)

@Susannaanas, we can move all translations along a whole page. However, we cannot only move some units. The best way to proceed to move some units from A to B:

1. To copy A content to B.
2. To mark B for translation.
3. To imports translations using translation memory: since the content is identical, it will display a “100%” matching score.
4. Finally to remove content from A, and to mark it for translation.

To preserve translation memory, don’t remove content from A before translations have been imported to B. -- Pols12 (talk) 15:07, 5 February 2023 (UTC)

That still leaves a problem with already having content in B and consequently duplicate unit markers. I need to shuffle content between the three main pages, and the main navigation and the submenus. I have the impression that I will need to apologize to the people who have already translated them. – Susanna Ånäs (Susannaanas) 🦜 15:32, 5 February 2023 (UTC)

Indeed, while copying the text, you need to remove unit markers. They will be automatically re-added at step 2 (by translation admin). -- Pols12 (talk) 15:43, 5 February 2023 (UTC)

I get that. I could also manually add existing translations from the old page to the new one, if the translations cannot follow the text to the other page. – Susanna Ånäs (Susannaanas) 🦜 15:49, 5 February 2023 (UTC)

Yes, in all cases, this is a manual action. But translation memory (suggestions on the right side) is really helpful. -- Pols12 (talk) 15:59, 5 February 2023 (UTC)

I have a new concern. I have managed to have a permanent discouraged status for a few pages by doing things in the wrong place. These pages show up as discouraged, and I cannot change that:

• Wiki Loves Living Heritage
• Wiki Loves Living Heritage/About
• Wiki Loves Living Heritage/Join

Susanna Ånäs (Susannaanas) 🦜 09:59, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

@Susannaanas, if you want to restore translation for these few pages, just scroll through Special:PageTranslation and click "restore" button that you'd getting below a specific page. ─ The Aafī ^(talk) 13:38, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

The thing is that they do not appear in that list anymore. I have removed them in a wrong way, by removing them from the list in https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:AggregateGroups and adding there again. (Bug, I presume) – Susanna Ånäs (Susannaanas) 🦜 16:10, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

@Susannaanas, I was able to locate Wiki Loves Living Heritage and Wiki Loves Living Heritage/Join and I have restored translation for them. The other page has some pending changes. ─ The Aafī ^(talk) 16:25, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

@Susannaanas, done for the other one as well. It is hard to locate pages in a list of so many pages. Wiki Loves Living Heritage related pages are around from number 5060 on Special:PageTranslation's "Pages in translation" section. ─ The Aafī ^(talk) 16:29, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

Wonderful, big thanks!! Susanna Ånäs (Susannaanas) 🦜 19:10, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

Invitation to provide feedback about Translatable pages

The Wikimedia Foundation’s Language Team invites you to participate in a survey about Translatable pages.

I assume most of you are familiar with this feature, but we would like to hear from you whether you have used this feature or not. If you prepare wiki content for translation, coordinate translators, or provide translations, your feedback is important. The survey takes approximately 8-10 minutes to complete.

Anonymous survey link: https://wikimedia.qualtrics.com/jfe/form/SV_72K5DHW1oFa1R5Q

Please note this survey will be conducted via a third-party service, which may subject it to additional terms. For more information on privacy and data-handling, see the survey privacy statement. Nikerabbit (talk) 14:32, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

Old page version "leaking through" in the translation extension

I don't know if this is a known issue, but I found this quite weird. When a translation needs to be updated, the extension shows a text that says "This translation may need to be updated. Show differences?" You can then see a "diff" of what has changed in the text. On the left side is the old version of the original text and on the right side is the new one. But in some cases instead of the short original text on the left, I seem to see a very old version of the whole page's source code. This has happened in the Finnish and Italian versions of the ToU. I see the source code for the message box seen on this Jan 2012 English version of the page and below it the whole page's source code.

How to reproduce: Go to Terms of use/it. Open the translation extension and go to the second-to-last paragraph in section "8. DMCA Compliance" (where there are tt-tags, "If you are the owner of content..."). Open the translation and wait for the "diff" to appear. Click on the diff. kyykaarme (talk) 18:28, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

Confirmed, thanks for the bug-report.

For quick access: Here's a direct link to just that unit example, and here is the diff it should be showing. (IIUC)

From a quick search of Phabricator, I cannot see any obviously related tasks about this bug. Perhaps UOzurumba (WMF) knows of one, or can help file a task or bring it to the team's attention. Quiddity (WMF) (talk) 21:02, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

Thank you @Quiddity (WMF) for notifying me of this. I have created a bug report for this issue. @Kyykaarme; you can track progress from this phab ticket.

UOzurumba (WMF) (talk) 23:08, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

@Quiddity (WMF) & UOzurumba (WMF) Thanks! I kind of fell down the rabbit hole when I saw the old text that I then couldn't find anywhere else on Meta. kyykaarme (talk) 20:51, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

Category subs for Wikimania 2023 (request)

I wish we can organize Wikimania related pages in one place, esp those related to the coming one in August 2023. Pages translated regardless of /lang-code suffix, including /ja, can be a sub to Category:Wikimania 2023. Is it feasible? Category:Wikimania 2023/ja baits as a redlink, not helpful at all. Omotecho (talk) 06:00, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

@Omotecho: Hi, normally when translations are going to be many, and a category similarly to be used on several pages that are in translation - the general practice is that we mark the categories for translation as well. This could be noticed by seeing {{#translation:}} right next to the category names on any such page. Once such a page is translated into any language, the category on the translated page appears in red because it does not exist but it does not mean the category cannot be created. ─ The Aafī ^(talk) 06:24, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for swift reply, wow, you are so crisp!

Then creating /ja category under the larger category is up to who? No bot task? I love tree structure of infos and pages.

Or any threshold of page numbers when Category:Wikimania/lang-code be collected/syphoned as sub to main category?

Honestly, whenever I have to push menu tabs to move between Wikimania pages, I feel foolish. Categories saves not only time but gives extra cents to read related pages. Or promote new opportunities among peers in my case, and indicate the category, or bins of infos are organized.

Am I too wikipedia minded? — Omotecho (talk) 08:27, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

@Omotecho, I'd honestly say yes and it could be something added to the loads of @FuzzyBot. However, I'd want to hear from my mentor translation admins like @Ameisenigel - who happen to be associated with the Wikimania this year. ─ The Aafī ^(talk) 13:53, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

Category:Wikimania 2023 currently contains only one page (Wikimania 2023). If we do not expect more pages, I see little value in making the category translatable and it might be more helpful to categorize all translated versions in Category:Wikimania 2023 as well. On the other hand I am not using categories that much, so I do not have a strong opinion on it. --Ameisenigel (talk) 15:03, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

• The common pattern for categorization of translation pages is “keep translation pages in distinct categories, a category per language”. As The Aafi said, #translation: magic word has been designed for this purpose. So, we should mark Category:Wikimania 2023 for translation.
• However, the guidelines about category states: Try to keep the number of categories on Meta-Wiki as low as possible. So, we should not have a category for only one page (Wikimania 2023). Wikimania pages are expected to locate at Wikimania wiki. I am inclined to delete that category in favor of general Category:Wikimania. But I’m not aware of what pages will be created about Wikimania here at Meta-Wiki.

-- Pols12 (talk) 15:59, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

@Pols12, @TheAafi and @Ameisenigel, thank you coming to discuss, and yes,

I guess a reader at Meta for Wikimania 2923 will somehow find 2023:Wikimania/ja. Category grouping will happen over there I cross my fingers. Cheers, Omotecho (talk) 18:43, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

Template:AdminWelcome

Hello. Would it be possible (rather, would it be advantageous?) to convert Template:AdminWelcome to use the translate extension? There are a number of templates like that (e.g. Template:Welcome) which we may wish to convert if migrating them to the Translate extension won't break them. Thank you, —MarcoAurelio (talk) 10:46, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

@MarcoAurelio, if done, all of the existing translations would need to be verified/updated once the template is marked for translation. ─ The Aafī ^(talk) 14:00, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

Hello @TheAafi - thanks for your answer. I thought about that, but Special:PageMigration can be of help to restore them. Some are problably outdated nonetheless and could use some updating/synchronization. —MarcoAurelio (talk) 19:57, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

@MarcoAurelio, you are right. I just tried to issue markup to this template, in my sandbox area, to check with areas where I'd need help from my fellows. See User:TheAafi/sandbox. There are some links to pages which are not in Translation System and I personally feel difficult to mark them - because if they are written in a different language (while translation), the links on any translated page would not work, if they are not posted manually in a manner like [[Interwiki link to non-translatable meta-page|title in any language]] ─ The Aafī ^(talk) 23:41, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

Something like this. Do you feel this is okay? ─ The Aafī ^(talk) 23:50, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

Allow me to ping @Pols12 which knows more than me about translation syntax :-) —MarcoAurelio (talk) 11:08, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

I don’t see any major issue in Translate markup. I would only split the main text into two units, because it is pretty long.

Besides, we could improve the wikifying (use a flexbox instead of a table), but that does not concern internationalization. -- Pols12 (talk) 15:42, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

Thanks @Pols12, I have marked Template:AdminWelcome for translation (splitting it into 2 units) and imported and updated translation for Arabic sub page. @MarcoAurelio: I left the other subpages for now because a lot of extraneous stuff exists on them and it needs to be cleared off manually, even after the translations are imported successfully. ─ The Aafī ^(talk) 15:57, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

Thanks @TheAafi I'll try to restore old translations where possible (and mark them as !!FUZZY!! since some are really outdated (e.g. the 'es' one), so it's not a super high priority. Admin appointments on Meta are not everyday either :)

@Pols12: flex would be great. We could also tweak the wording of the template in the process. For example, #wikimedia-admin^connect was dead years ago, now I'm not even in the invite list. It may be better to use #wikimedia-meta^connect (which is also not that active, but it's public at least), among perhaps an update on the llinks for the important pages, etc. —MarcoAurelio (talk) 16:25, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

@MarcoAurelio, I am glad that I have been helpful. Even if we make changes to the main text now or change its format, nothing much would be lost. Tvar tagging in the markup is always helpful and even if we update the links, a single click on "confirm translation" updates link on the translated page because the tvar number remains the same. ─ The Aafī ^(talk) 16:40, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

Quick translation into ja, ru, zh, pt, fa, and id

Hello, all, I need translations for a very short phrase:

Choose your language.

That's all. The translation should be short and idiomatic. For example, in German, I settled on Sprache wählen ("to choose your language", which implies "Click here to choose your language").

@SGrabarczuk (WMF) and I are putting together a message to remind editors that the user interface language can be changed to their preferred language in Special:GlobalPreferences. We've got a handful of translations already, and I'm hoping to add Japanese, Russian, Chinese, Portuguese, Persian, and Indonesian to the list.

Thank you for helping us.

Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 22:35, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

@Whatamidoing (WMF): Do you need it for Spanish as well? I don't see it in translatewiki.net. —MarcoAurelio (talk) 23:15, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

I have "Elige tu idioma" for Spanish. (This is a one-time thing, and we only need the ~12 most common languages in the movement, so we're assembling the translations off line for now.) Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 17:56, 29 March 2023 (UTC)