JustB EU
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Nederlandse vertaling UCoC
editHallo JustB EU, kunnen we je vertaling van delen van deUCoC bespreken? Ik heb wat bedenkingen, je wijkt nogal af van het origineel. Vexations (talk) 13:40, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
- Hi @Vexations:, shall we move to english, so others can understand - there's a general issue. The pieces of text translated from English to Dutch are meant to fit into the Dutch legal context. That's one reason wordings differ, the Flamish version has to fit into the Belgian jurisdiction and will differ again. One example: "Policy" can not be translated with "beleid" because typically for "beleid" in The Netherlands is, that it's not a sanctionable rule, but a broad guideline how a public body, organisation or firm plans to move ahead. Another reason for differences is, that wordings like "Wikimedians" and "community" originate from the Wikimedia narrative and must be transferred first from "Wikimedia-language" into (US-)english/US legal english and than into another jurisdiction's legal language. Imho the step from Wikimedian language into US legal english should be done by the WMF legal dept. Normally such wordings and concepts are being defined or described in a separate article. At least some legal contaxt is needed. Otherwise it will be translators that have to define those wordings into something that might fit into their jurisdictional legal context. That doesn't seem right. To move forward, the proposal for now is to stick to the machine translation with a disclaimer or explainer ("This is not an official legal translation" or something like that). Happy to hear your thoughts (keywords) but when time is short, do as you think is apppropriate and could help move on with this issues. JustB EU (talk) 17:12, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
I don’t think we have a machine translation. It has been extensively edited. I’m going to make a number of suggestions and then perhaps you can let me know what you think of those. Vexations (talk) 19:34, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
Okay @Vexations:, understand. Hope to have some time for support. In general pl. take the advice seriously, that this better not should be handled by volunteers, unless it's being made clear that the translations were done collaboratively by volunteers without taking care of legal aspects and without liability etc.. WMF is coordinating the translation-work (https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Universal_Code_of_Conduct#Let's_talk_translation!!!) but probably will not take legal responsibility for the content, in line with the official WMF POV on all Wikimedia projects' content. Please do not use my input to improve WMF legal stuff, it was meant to share with volunteers, the translation was meant for a wikipedia-page on the subject. Keep up! JustB EU (talk)
Can you check with a representative of the WMF that your assertion is correct? Since the WMF is not based in the Netherlands or Belgium, those legal systems don’t seem to apply, only the US. Vexations (talk) 17:39, 26 February 2021 (UTC)
@Vexations: What assertion do you mean? Tx. When someone of WMF told you this, can you tell me her/his role? Was it only a facilitator or someone from a WMF dept? In general, when a German citizen threats another German citizen on the de.Wikipedia, most probably German law is applicable and the person can go into a German court. A for the Terms of Use, this is in discussion in the EU. The UCoc will be enforceable via the ToU, I guess, but the WMF does communicate, the UCoC must be adapted by the local communities. That sounds like WMF has the POV local laws will be applicable. I think that is just narrative, but at one point or another, WMF may not mislead the volunteers, especially not, now they bring the most valuable contributions to WMF owned projects. The volunteers can generally speaking not be governed by WMF corporate ruling because they're not employees. Tx JustB EU (talk) 18:16, 26 February 2021 (UTC)
I’m not a lawyer. If this needs clarification, checking with a the WMF would be prudent. The ToU in nlwiki refers to the English version as the official one. Vexations (talk) 20:04, 26 February 2021 (UTC)
- @Vexations: Yes, prudence and (legal) protection of volunteers is the perspective. Did not understand what assertion you did mean. Many volunteers discussing on the meta seem to have a different POV than the WMF. Therefore the questions can't be clarified only by knowing the WMF legal POV. However, I'll try to find out, thanks. Where do I find the nlwiki with the Dutch translation? Keep up! JustB EU (talk) 09:38, 2 March 2021 (UTC)
- I thought your assertion was that the WMF will not take legal responsibility for the content (of the UCOC). I don't know that, and the way to find out would be to ask the WMF. The nlwiki doesn't have the current translation at nl:Wikipedia:Universele_gedragscode, but an older one. Vexations (talk) 13:59, 2 March 2021 (UTC)
- @Vexations: Ah, begrijp het nu, Alles Klar. The WMF is responsible for the UCoC original content as published on foundation.wikimedia.org, no doubt. It's not clear whether WMF takes responsibility for the translations, because normally all content created by volunteers is not the responsibility of the WMF, that's arranged in the WMF Terms of Use. Therefore now the questions. I can inform you when things are getting clearer, when you whish. Where can I find the page to discuss and eventually enhance the Dutch translation? Tx Best! JustB EU (talk) 19:15, 2 March 2021 (UTC)
- JustB_EU You already edited the translation, at https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Universal_Code_of_Conduct%2FPolicy_text%2Fnl&type=revision&diff=21151226&oldid=21145192 for example. I had some concerns over that, because "de kracht te geven" is very unusual translation of "empowering" A formal translation is "machtigen", and the more common one would be "in staat stellen". See https://www.jstor.org/stable/41961588 for a exploration of the words' meaning in an educational context. Discussions on the translation in Dutch have not yet taken place, but they havein French, at https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Universal_Code_of_Conduct/Policy_text/fr and Russian, at https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Universal_Code_of_Conduct/Policy_text/ru. The place to discuss the Dutch translation would be https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Universal_Code_of_Conduct/Policy_text/nl. Vexations (talk) 12:33, 3 March 2021 (UTC)
- Thanks @Vexations:! As for empowering and empowerment in the context of movement: that use originates from civil-rights roots-movements like the the black emancipation movement and womens' liberation movement. It's meant in a sense to encourage people to do something they didn't think of doing before, to give people a more confident feeling, to give them skills or educate them so they can gain (more) control over their life, to become more self-determined. To inform about civil rights etc. You can read the whole article you'd refer to, or try a good english / VS based (professional) dictionary or use a search-engine tuned to the region VS or UK. Maybe today, 8th of March, is a nice day to learn about this other interpretation... :) JustB EU (talk) 18:38, 8 March 2021 (UTC)
- JustB_EU You already edited the translation, at https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Universal_Code_of_Conduct%2FPolicy_text%2Fnl&type=revision&diff=21151226&oldid=21145192 for example. I had some concerns over that, because "de kracht te geven" is very unusual translation of "empowering" A formal translation is "machtigen", and the more common one would be "in staat stellen". See https://www.jstor.org/stable/41961588 for a exploration of the words' meaning in an educational context. Discussions on the translation in Dutch have not yet taken place, but they havein French, at https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Universal_Code_of_Conduct/Policy_text/fr and Russian, at https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Universal_Code_of_Conduct/Policy_text/ru. The place to discuss the Dutch translation would be https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Universal_Code_of_Conduct/Policy_text/nl. Vexations (talk) 12:33, 3 March 2021 (UTC)
- @Vexations: Ah, begrijp het nu, Alles Klar. The WMF is responsible for the UCoC original content as published on foundation.wikimedia.org, no doubt. It's not clear whether WMF takes responsibility for the translations, because normally all content created by volunteers is not the responsibility of the WMF, that's arranged in the WMF Terms of Use. Therefore now the questions. I can inform you when things are getting clearer, when you whish. Where can I find the page to discuss and eventually enhance the Dutch translation? Tx Best! JustB EU (talk) 19:15, 2 March 2021 (UTC)
- I thought your assertion was that the WMF will not take legal responsibility for the content (of the UCOC). I don't know that, and the way to find out would be to ask the WMF. The nlwiki doesn't have the current translation at nl:Wikipedia:Universele_gedragscode, but an older one. Vexations (talk) 13:59, 2 March 2021 (UTC)
- Hi JustB EU, I tried to ping you in a related section on my talk page but I'm not sure if it worked. I wanted to thank you (both^) for your collaboration on the Dutch translations, and ask if you had time to translate a short announcement to be sent to Dutch wikis, hoping to send around 5 April: Universal Code of Conduct/2021 consultations/Announcement. I would really appreciate it! (I know I have some answers pending for you also.) All the best, Xeno (WMF) (talk) 18:02, 3 April 2021 (UTC)