User talk:Another Believer/Meetups

Some thoughts (categorization and details)

This is a great project, AB! I've done similar work here on Meta (but not on Wikipedia or Commons), improving the category of structures around Wikimanias, organizations such as chapters, and (to a lesser extent) events. It's very time consuming and rather thankless work, but as you point out, it supports an emergent view of what is going on, which can be very valuable. So, above all, thank you for putting in the effort, and moreover, for documenting what you've done!

There's one issue that it would be nice to talk through; I don't think there's a good clean solution, but I think it would be useful to develop some kind of consensus about how to handle this. As it is currently, pages about events serve two functions: (1) providing information and outreach ahead of time, and (2) preserving a record after the fact for the kind of work you're talking about here. They are of course generally set up with (1) in mind; but the needs of a page that serves (2) might be somewhat different.

For instance, I don't think it's terribly important to distinguish between Wikipedia, Wikimedia, and other kinds of events in maintaining a historical record -- or at least, not as important as keeping track of how much activity there is where, at what time.

For that reason, it seems maybe worth exploring a process where the information about events that were initiated at places like English Wikipedia, Commons, etc., are moved (with cross-wiki redirects, of course) to Meta, where it's possible to get a look at them all in the same place. And on Meta, they should probably all be categorized as "Wikimedia meetups"; if anybody wants to further refine them as "Wikipedia meetups" or "Wikisource meetups" etc., that should be in addition to the top-level category, at least until some future date where there's so much stuff going on all the time that it becomes unmanageable to lump it all together.

What do you think about this? -Pete F (talk) 23:58, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for your kind words, Pete. Regarding Wikipedia vs. Wikimedia, I have noticed that at English Wikipedia the categories are named "Wikipedia meetups in [X]", whereas at Commons and Meta the categories are named "Wikimedia meetups in [X]". (Well, actually, at Meta there is just the parent category Wikimedia meetups; subcategories are not named similarly... this needs works!) This difference does not concern me, as long as there is consistency within project wikis and each are interlinked for easier access. I am currently in the process of making sure all meetup categories at Wikipedia display Commons category boxes, linking to the associated meetup categories at Wikimedia Commons. This work should direct many Wikipedians to Commons to view files and images from past meetups.

Names for parent categories (year, country, state, city) are pretty consistent at English Wikipedia and Commons, thanks to a lot of recent moving and renaming. Category names for individual events, however, vary greatly (Category:London meetup 1 vs. Category:Wikipedia meetup London 3, or Category:Dupont Circle WikiDC Meetup May 22 2012 vs. Category:October 2011 NARA Backstage Pass). This does bother me, but probably just because I suffer from perfectionism. I've done some categorization at Meta, mostly for chapters and other projects, but I will have to take another at how the meetup pages are structured. It would definitely be a huge benefit to all Wikimedia projects if meetup pages were interlinked more and/or centralized. I do think, though, that Meta can be a confusing place for the average Wikipedian. --Another Believer (talk) 00:26, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I tried to make things more consistent here at Meta in the areas I worked on, and I'm glad to hear you have been doing that on a bigger scale. There may (?) still be work to be done in the "Wiki*edians in…" categories on Commons, it seems like it would be tough to impose consistency there, but it results in lots of content being harder to find than it might be. But, that's not really essential to the "meetups" issue. At any rate, if you run into issues where you want a second opinion before forging ahead, I'd be happy to help if I can.

For event promotion, I think it's very important to allow people to name events in a way that makes sense for their intended audience. For keeping track of them after the fact, a more consistent naming scheme would probably be more beneficial. -Pete F (talk) 02:21, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

I like the direction of this conversation and this sorting and record-keeping process seems fundamentally important to having any kind of outreach program in any project. This is an exciting and radical short-term project which would require much work to set up and would make a big impact. Blue Rasberry (talk) 14:44, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

I suggest for now putting meetups under both catergories. Geraldshields11 (talk) 13:54, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

Some more thoughts (next steps and bigger opportunities)

I'd like to respond in a more general way than I did above, because I think what you were getting at -- as well as the ideas Lane has picked up on -- are much more interesting than the minutia of categorization and structure. It seems to me that there are two important questions to consider:

• What structural improvements, or improvements to common practice, would benefit people trying to plan, promote, and execute meetups?
• What structural improvements, or improvements to common practice, would benefit people trying to surface, learn, and articulate lessons from past meetups?

I'd love to dig into these questions. There have of course been efforts to have this kind of discussion on this wiki, on Outreach, and other wikis; at the Foundation, in the GLAM-Wiki community, in the strategic planning process, at Wikimedia UK and other chapters, and in the Wikimania community; etc. So maybe a good step would be to figure out what is the best venue for the discussion, and how to best link it with past discussions.

I do think that we have some good energy right now for moving forward on this stuff in the US, and I am a big fan of working with a limited scope in order to make manageable projects that can then be expanded if that's wanted. Lane suggested WALRUS as a good venue, and I agree with that -- for now, maybe let's see what we can do keeping our focus mainly on the US. What do you think of that as a starting point? -Pete F (talk) 02:30, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

What I see that can come from this is a set of best practices for posting a local meetup. What could come from this is reform of WP:MEETUP. Here is what I imagine:

1. We make some template which is to be the base of a meetup page
2. On WP:MEETUP we put instructions for someone to substitute that template into their own page every time they organize a meetup

If we can get this much, and if the template includes categories, then we ought to be able to track and get notices for every meetup which happens, and people ought to be able to sort them by location or type (Wiki Loves Libraries etc.) themselves.

This seems fundamental to having any hope of increasing spontaneous community events, and it does not seem like a lot of work. It also seems fundamental to understanding when and where meetups have happened and are happening. This lack of categorization seems like a major insight to me. I posted this to be on the agenda of the next WALRUS meeting (WALRUS/January_2013). I agree with Pete that WALRUS and the US are good places to start but this project actually will influence any English speaker anywhere who uses the WP:MEETUP page to get help with a local event. On outreach, the Wiki Loves Libraries page was a major hassle also for lack of existing advice of how to setup a meetup, and this could settle that. It could settle outreach organization problems in practically all contexts, actually. Blue Rasberry (talk) 14:41, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for sharing your additional thoughts, Pete (and thanks BlueRasberry as well!). I, too, think there is room for a much larger conversation here; the page I created was just one place to download some of my work and thoughts in a way that summarized my categorization activity to date, illustrated a general trend, identified a problem and suggested possible solutions, and invited others to join the conversation. I have been thinking about this for a long time and I appreciate the help fleshing out these ideas and this conversation. I am fine focusing the conversation on the United States for now. But, like BlueRasberry said, the project would eventually spread throughout English Wikipedia, if not beyond. I've always thought the Meetup page needed to be improved, and frankly I was always surprised it was not more organized and instructive. Having accessible templates and simple instructions would reduce the barrier for individuals to organize local events. Even better, if the templates somehow automatically categorized pages (WLL, WLM, Wiknic, year, etc.), it was reduce manual labor and create a better archive of activity. Following a local event (I am referring to MY local, so Portland), I add an "archive" template to the top of the page so that it is NOT recycled (see example here). This will allow contributors to view the page in the future, and therefore see the event's purpose/goals, attendees, results, pictures, minutes, etc. This is very important. --Another Believer (talk) 15:33, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

Update: I spent some time yesterday and this morning linking all country, state and city meetup categories at English Wikipedia to their associated Commons categories and WikiProjects (both as a category and on the talk page). Hopefully this work will encourage cooperation between the various wikis and set a precedent for interlinking. I think a newer contributor who stumbles upon Category:Wikipedia meetups in Pennsylvania will have an easier time accessing Category:Wikimedia meetups in Pennsylvania at Wikimedia Commons, WikiProject Pennsylvania (via the category or the talk page), or even Category:Wikipedia meetups in Philadelphia if they are interested in this city in particular. WALRUS might be particularly interested in seeing the US structure. --Another Believer (talk) 17:16, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

Links between related Wikipedia, Commons (and maybe Meta or Outreach) have been long needed -- very glad you are putting some work into this! -Pete F (talk) 19:18, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

Campaigns

As you can see from the front page, there are currently parent categories at English Wikipedia for Wikipedia Loves Libraries and Wikipedia Takes America. Both of these categories have subcategories by year. Would it be beneficial to create additional parent categories for Wikipedia Day and the Great American Wiknic? Personally, I am a fan of detailed categorization but I don't want to drive others crazy with subdivision. Sarah created the category WikiWomen events, a subcategory of Category:Wikipedia meetups, back in October, so this might show a preference for grouping like with like. If we are okay with further subdivision, are there any other campaigns that should have parent categories? --Another Believer (talk) 15:41, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

I am not sure how the subdivisions should go, but I think that it should be possible to sort meetings by type, year (or month?), and location. I think that all type categories should be in a larger category - named campaigns or whatever - and that WikiWomen, Wiknics, and Library events should all be part of that heading. I suppose "regular meeting" should also be part of that. I think that this is important for generating metrics about how much interest there is in having library meetings or wikiwomen meetings, for example. However, I also think about how this would look if we had some groups only do one kind of meeting. Like for example, what if there was a group which had monthly women's meetings or otherwise only did meetings in libraries. Is any event in a library a Wikipedia Loves Libraries event? Blue Rasberry (talk) 15:59, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

Regarding libraries, I categorized WLL events as library-related events that were held in October/Novembe (or that specifically mentioned WLL). I think almost all were within this time frame, but I am sure there are some exceptions (including the only current entry for Category:Wikipedia Loves Libraries 2013, which was held this month but specifically mentions WLL). Perhaps, in addition to the year and country parent categories, there could be "Category:Wikipedia meetups by type". This is where people could view types of events, such as WikiWomen, WLL, etc. But keep in mind that too much specificity might complicate things. For example, having a WikiWomen editathon in San Francisco in 2013 in conjunction with Wikipedia Loves Libraries would result in multiple categories: Wikipedia meetups in 2013, Wikipedia meetups in San Francisco, Wikipedia editathons, Wikipedia Loves Libraries 2013, and WikiWomen's events. Maybe this is a good thing? Just seems like the data would become too convoluted if you are looking for general trends, as pages would be counted more than once. That being said, the result would be much more data. We could determine trends within WLL, the total number of WikiWomen events, the number of Wiknics in 2012, etc. --Another Believer (talk) 16:32, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

I think the degree of specificity should come from (1) how useful the categorization will be and (2) how much energy there is for maintaining a lot of detail. So, if you think it will be useful, and you are able to do the work to categorize them, I'd say go ahead!

As to Lane's point, I think that if it matters, somebody will fix it. In other words -- if they are miscategorized for the time being, and if that somehow causes a problem for somebody, they will probably recategorize as needed. So, I wouldn't let details like this get in the way -- just categorize as best you know how, and leave refinements to others. Make sense? -Pete F (talk) 19:03, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

Meetup guidelines

Extended content
After completing the initial work currently on the user page, I was able to step back and gain greater perspective. But, I humbly ask for other Wikimedians to contribute to this discussion. I have ideas that I am unable to articulate, either for technical reasons or because I am missing some sort of "Wikipedia glue" that binds these pieces together. I do think meetup metrics could prove to be very useful to the Wikimedia movement. Perhaps it would be beneficial to construct a style guide for meetup pages, much like WikiProject Albums has for album articles. Even if the style guide never reached guideline status, it might be beneficial to offer recommendations. Wikipedia meetup: X City When and Where Time 2–5 pm City/State City, State Address X Address Attendance Information Registered Attendees 15 Actual Attendees 10 Event Coordinators Chairperson User:XXXX If you would like to help out, please contact the chairperson. Individual meetup pages might have an infobox. I do not believe one exists for Wikipedia meetup pages specifically, but this one to the right works well at English Wikipedia (or one could be constructed). Pages might contain a lead providing a general overview of the event, time and location details, and RSVP information. Other sections could include: Goals Copy of the invitation distributed online Instructions or resources Participants, regrets Report See also and/or External links sections Interwiki link to Wikimedia Commons and other Foundation projects Navbox for meetups within the region (city, state, or nation) I invite you to see the meetup pages for Wiki Loves Libraries 2012 and Wiki Takes Portland 2012 as examples. These two pages have their differences, but their overall structure is similar. You'll notice both pages have an archive template at the top; this could be another recommendation in the style guide. Archiving pages following events ensures pages are not recycled with details for future events. The navbox at the bottom allows people to access meetup pages for past events. Since notes, meeting minutes, pictures, results, and names of participants are preserved, people can start to gain an understanding of what the Wikipedia community is like locally. Meetup pages could become more inviting, more inspiring, more informational. I think in-person collaboration is crucial to the Wikimedia movement, so any way we can encourage community activity should be taken seriously. Of course, all of these Portland meetup pages will eventually lead you back to, or rather branch from, the main Portland meetup page. In addition to recommendations for pages dedicated to individual events, this proposed style guide could also offer recommendations for city pages. City meetup pages could provide a general overview of activity in that community and possibly include: Invitation to the next meetup History of past meetups (prose or list) General calendar of events, campaigns, city-specific resources Notes or references, if applicable Links Interwiki link to Wikimedia Commons Navbox Event-specific and city meetup pages would be categorized properly based on year, location and campaign, providing access to relevant pages. The style guide could even offer Wizards for page creation, or at least templates. Removing the barrier to create or find existing pages for events will help the community. Providing access to records for past events is, in my opinion, equally as important. I hope other Wikipedians will take a look at this work and contribute to the discussion. You might benefit from exploring some of the meetup pages and categories. Recent meetup work for Portland will showcase most of my activity. Thank you. --Another Believer (talk) 05:06, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

I copied most of this collapsed content to the front page as a second part to this project. I did not copy the following text, which I will re-write here since it is collapsed above: "I humbly ask for other Wikimedians to contribute to this discussion. I have ideas that I am unable to articulate, either for technical reasons or because I am missing some sort of "Wikipedia glue" that binds these pieces together." --Another Believer (talk) 20:30, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

Notes for January 2013 WALRUS meeting

Notes for the January 2013 WALRUS meeting:

Extended content
I invite you to view my initial work and subsequent thoughts at the following link: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Another_Believer/Meetups. Over the past few months, I spent some time categorizing meetup pags at English Wikipedia by year, geographic location (city, state or nation) and campaign (such as Wikipedia Loves Libraries 2012), if applicable. In the process of organizing and quantifying these meetup pages, patterns began to emerge. This work included categorization, linking categories to Wikimedia Commons and associated WikiProjects. Interwiki links will drive traffic from Wikipedia to other Foundation projects, and the WikiProject categories and talk page templates can encourage online participation and collaboration. The data is not perfect, but I think general trends are evident. Meetups are increasing in number each year, but as a community we can do better at organizing and archiving event pages. Removing the barrier to create and/or find meetups can only help the Wikimedia movement, and archiving these event pages (rather than recycling pages) allows contributors to learn about their local Wikipedia community by reviewing past events, participants, goals, outcomes, images, minutes, etc. Categories exist for Wikipedia Takes America and Wikipedia Loves Libraries, but not for others (such as Wikipedia Day, the Great American Wiknic, etc.), which means more work remains. Having meetup metrics will allow us to track the success of specific campaigns and determine the amount of activity within local communities. Once I was able to step back from this initial work, larger concepts emerged. I propose constructing a style guide for meetup pages for individual events and for main city meetup pages, such as WP:Meetup/Seattle (details can be found at the link I posted previously). Some ideas include page creation wizards, page templates, automatic categorization, infoboxes, links to Wikimedia Commons and/or other interwiki links, navboxes, etc. Contributors will be less apprehensive to propose meetups if the process is guided and simplified. I have been thinking about meetup organization for quick some time now, and I am glad to have this initial work completed. But, I humbly ask other experienced Wikimedians to please take a look at this work and contribute the discussion page. I think there is potential to have a conversation about ‘best practices’ for creating, finding, organizing and archiving meetups. I hope other contributors can help me take this work and these ideas to the next level, as I am not the most technically inclined individual. Thanks so much.

--Another Believer (talk) 02:53, 17 January 2013 (UTC)