Talk:Movement Charter

Active discussions

Develop charter in wiki wayEdit

Some people are shy about posting drafts and ideas but I recommend developing the discussion in a centralized way to identify both consensus and points which need discussion.

I suggest using this meta page as a place for drafting and that anyone who has their own ideas or draft text post on a subpage here. The reason why posting here is preferable is because there is a wiki custom to hesitate to edit text on individuals' user pages, but wiki custom does encourage editing common text.

If anyone wants both a shared version and an individual version of text on their userpage then I think that is great.

user:The Land publicly shared User:The Land/Movement Charter Input which I think is great, and I also know some other people have draft text but have hesitated to put it out for discussion due to shyness or wanting it to be perfect. I think the wiki community welcomes all ideas and wants lots of them. Thanks Land for posting.

Blue Rasberry (talk) 14:51, 29 December 2020 (UTC)[]

I think it's great that anyone can contribute their ideas about a subtopic of the strategy discussions and post that for everyone to read and think about. I'm not sure why it couldn't be part of the official process, though. I think that encouraging lots of people to think publicly about these topic is a great way to get people involved in the process so that they “own” the process and feel comfortable participating in it.Vexations (talk) 22:11, 31 December 2020 (UTC)[]
@Bluerasberry:, thanks for the link here. I think that for developing the content in a collaborative way, a central space would be helpful. For this I created the placeholder landing page and have also added the links to Movement Charter input by User:The Landand Nano Charter concept page by Pharos there. --KVaidla (WMF) (talk) 11:03, 21 May 2021 (UTC)[]

Proposed process for producing the Movement CharterEdit

Lots of people have ideas and here is one on the table for consideration.

I feel that much is flexible right now. If anyone has proposals or ideas, then post comments here on the talk page or for longer process proposals or essays, write in your own space and link to it from the main page of this document. Blue Rasberry (talk) 12:42, 1 April 2021 (UTC)[]

Please mark for TranslationEdit

Please mark the "front page" for Translation. Thank you in advance! --Christoph Jackel (WMDE) 11:10, 10 April 2021 (UTC)[]

Drafting a Movement Charter (Proposal)Edit

Hi all! I would like to invite you to take a look at our proposal to draft the Movement Charter. We are proposing a way forward by limiting the scope and responsibilities of the IGC to being the Movement Charter drafting group. You can also read some reflections in the talk page on the process of ratification of the Movement Charter, the composition of the Movement Charter drafting group, among others. If you agree on this way forward, you can support it by endorsing it with your signature.

--marcmiquel (talk) 14:28, 24 April 2021 (UTC)[]

Thoughts on ratification processEdit

Also I've posted some thoughts on what the ratification process might look like. Chris Keating (The Land) (talk) 08:40, 25 April 2021 (UTC)[]

Following a SWAN call, a separate page was set up: Movement Charter/Ratification process. Ad Huikeshoven (talk) 12:39, 7 May 2021 (UTC)[]

ImageEdit

 
The Wikimedia Community would define roles and governance principles in the Wikimedia Movement Charter

I put an image in the article.

It seems like the content about the Movement Charter may become a matter of broader interest than typical pages on Meta-Wiki, and consequently, I think we should have some image to make it more recognizable. I am indifferent about what kind of image there should be, but I think there should be something. I am proposing this icon of a document as a start and encourage anyone else to make other suggestions. Blue Rasberry (talk) 21:02, 5 May 2021 (UTC)[]

Bluerasberry, thank you for the initiative! I think having a recognizable visual cue that connects for the process would be really helpful. +1 for this idea to be developed further. --KVaidla (WMF) (talk) 10:18, 21 May 2021 (UTC)[]

Centralize discussionEdit

The Movement Charter project has many subpages.

For accessibility, I have directed all talk pages here. Based on past talk page activity in meta, the Wiki community has been able to manage discussion even of quite complicated topics on a single talk page. The more common problem is having too many small conversations in too many places. To start with the most clarity, I propose to have discussion here, then if the need is great later, we be open to splitting off any major side discussions to a subspace if needed. Blue Rasberry (talk) 15:18, 10 May 2021 (UTC)[]

Thank you, Bluerasberry for proactively suggesting the change - and making that happen. I believe this works well for now to keep people in the loop, however in the future when we dig deeper in drafting, content, and ratification topics, we might want to have the specific talk pages back for keeping the conversation manageable (i.e. not overwhelming) and might need to fork the talk pages again. In that case, however, it would really make sense to provide quick updates regarding the most essential discussions happening on the central talk page. Just something to consider for the future. --KVaidla (WMF) (talk) 10:20, 21 May 2021 (UTC)[]

This page is for the Wikimedia Community to host its own discussionsEdit

I propose that this talk page be by and for Wikimedia Community volunteer discussion. The soul of the Wikimedia Movement is the Wikimedia Community, and the Movement Charter is a reflection of that soul. The lead of conversations about the Movement Charter should come from the Wikimedia Community of volunteers and not from paid staff or management by consultants.

I propose that paid staff who are eager to use this talk page advocate for the corporate position on the Movement Charter should instead convince Wikimedia community volunteers to make posts in their own words and of their own free will. If anyone has a statement to share which does not come from participating volunteers then let's discuss why that is. Blue Rasberry (talk) 15:18, 10 May 2021 (UTC)[]

I don't think it's helpful to approach this with a 'staff vs volunteers' mindset, to be honest. There are lots of interesting perspectives on the whole strategy from people who work for either the WMF or affiliates, some of them are involved in their work capacity, some of them are staff working on other things but engage with this as volunteers. Chris Keating (The Land) (talk) 14:43, 11 May 2021 (UTC)[]
@Bluerasberry: I'm a Foundation contractor for the UCoC consultation in the ESEAP region. I'm not a staff, but an "independent consultant" that does not have employment relationship with the Fdn, as governed by Californian law. I have been following the Movement Charter discussion as a volunteer longer than I am paid by the Fdn, and I view that my participation is purely on a volunteer basis. I would very much like to continue that, as I see myself as part of the community. What is your definition of the Community? RamzyM (talk) 15:53, 11 May 2021 (UTC)[]
I would strongly oppose that honestly. Why would that be a reason to silence their voices. I feel it's odd that on one hand we talk about inclusivity and on the other hand we talk to silence people based on who employ them. They are part of our communities, those discussion will impact their lives more than most of us. To me, they should be allowed to join in that discussion like all anyone from any of the communities of the movement. schiste (talk) 16:07, 11 May 2021 (UTC)[]
@Bluerasberry:, I would like to understand better the intent and benefit of your suggestion.
In my understanding the Movement Charter is a document that will define roles & responsibilities and mutual accountabilities across the movement, including all members and entities. I strongly believe that this conversation can only happen when different stakeholders and interest groups in the movement have a common discussion space where they interact across the natural and artificial borders within our movement. For me it is a foundational premise of making the global governance discussions work. As a result, I don't find implementing proposed restrictions on a central talk page constructive.
I believe that there are affiliate and WMF staff members who have experience and expertise related to governance topics overall as well as movement governance and policy work in particular that would be highly beneficial to inform the discussions around the Movement Charter. I would suggest that these voices need to be included in the conversations.
I do agree that there needs to be high level of community ownership regarding the Movement Charter conversations, yet I do not see how the proposed means would function towards that end. I would like to understand that better. I would also like to hear about alternatives that would enable communities in these conversations that are more supportive of a converging discussion, rather than creating unnecessary discussion silos that lead towards divergence. What are your thoughts regarding this? --KVaidla (WMF) (talk) 10:35, 21 May 2021 (UTC)[]
@KVaidla (WMF): I appreciate your willingness to talk. I would be happy to meet with you for a recorded video conversation which we post here. The discussion of complicated subjects naturally happens better with real time communication, and asynchronous text messages posted here to talk pages could never be an equivalent to that. Under what circumstances could I make an appointment with you to chat, record, and share? Blue Rasberry (talk) 14:07, 21 May 2021 (UTC)[]

Mesh designEdit

I strongly recommend the adoption in the charter of Mesh design for the most important issues. I also strongly suggest that the most important charter discussions be structured in Mesh design. To understand what Mesh design is see: Requests for comment/Closing the gap to and between the base communities. --Felipe da Fonseca (talk) 14:09, 14 May 2021 (UTC)[]

Felipe da Fonseca, thank you for pointing towards this design option. We have tried this approach previously in some of the movement strategy conversations and generally it works well for engaging wider audience and ensure they are well updated regarding the progress of the conversations. While active engagement on local wikis might be too much to ask for all the movement strategy initiatives, it does make sense for something as significant as Movement Charter and its ratification. We will have this idea in mind when discussing the process options. --KVaidla (WMF) (talk) 10:39, 21 May 2021 (UTC)[]

TranslationEdit

Could someone prepare it (Template:Movement_Charter/Header) for translation and bookmark the page? I tried to prepare it but for some reason I couldn't. This template is not appearing in the Portuguese version, I would like to know the reason to fix it.--Felipe da Fonseca (talk) 14:25, 14 May 2021 (UTC) Please mark Movement Charter/Movement Charter Drafting Group, Movement Charter/Content and Movement Charter/Ratification process too.--Felipe da Fonseca (talk) 14:48, 14 May 2021 (UTC)[]

Thanks for the ping @Felipe da Fonseca:. Main page and Drafting Group pages are now marked for translation. The rest we will mark when they become more stable, so we don't have redundant translation efforts from volunteers. We will ping here once they are marked. --KVaidla (WMF) (talk) 10:41, 21 May 2021 (UTC)[]

Content questions from meeting notesEdit

I'm a bit concerned that there is a large amount of useful discussion at Strategy/Wikimedia movement/2018-20/Transition/Proposal: Drafting a Movement Charter/Meeting notes which hasn't yet been carried forward, if only in outline format, to the charter content drafting space or this talk page for it. For example, these questions among many others and useful discussion points there:

  • Can the Association of Chapters Charter be used as a starting point?
    • what are the advantages and disadvantages?
    • is it sufficiently democratic?
    • is it sufficiently inclusive of the global south?
    • can we charter grantmaking processes to be fair across disadvantaged wikimedians?
    • how can we codify an elected instead of appointed governing group?
    • do we need to recruit drafters from groups underrepresented in the strategy process?
    • what are the tasks necessary to complete a suitable charter?

Anyway, I suggest those notes are worth at least a careful skim by anyone interested in drafting. 2601:647:4D00:2C40:0:0:0:88EB 08:25, 19 May 2021 (UTC)[]

Thanks for the ping regarding this. It is good practice to build on previous conversations and linking to them in a more accessible way makes sense. However, I believe that this link makes more sense under the "Content" section, which is under construction. I also added the link there for the time being. --KVaidla (WMF) (talk) 10:45, 21 May 2021 (UTC)[]

Movement Charter/Ratification process: Ideation and iteration tooEdit

I'd suggest that we expand the scope of Movement Charter/Ratification process to cover initial ideation and iteration of proposals over time, so it's not just about ratification at the end stage. I believe there are things we can learn from the Community Wishlist Survey and similar curated community processes, so that a Drafting Group has some raw material to consolidate, refine and develop further.--Pharos (talk) 13:32, 20 May 2021 (UTC)[]

Have also put forward a 23 May session during Wikimedia Hackathon 2021 at .--Pharos (talk) 16:31, 20 May 2021 (UTC)[]
Hi Pharos - I agree entirely! I have some thoughts on this which I'll also add to the page probably next week. I'm interested to hear what you think the learning points from the Community Wishlist Survey might be - could you expand on your thoughts on this? Chris Keating (The Land) (talk) 18:17, 20 May 2021 (UTC)[]
@Pharos:, thank you for the initiative. From the theory perspective, I also strongly agree with you. Developing Movement Charter needs to be a consensus process and considering the diversity of perspectives we have in our movement, this cannot be an additional phase added to the process, but it needs to be integral part of the content development. I look forward to seeing this conversation progress and contributing to co-creation of a meaningful process.
Having a Charter hacking session at the Hackathon is an interesting idea. I plan to participate and hope this working session goes well. --KVaidla (WMF) (talk) 10:49, 21 May 2021 (UTC)[]
@The Land and KVaidla (WMF): Thanks, would welcome both of your participation, as well as anyone else interested. What I like about about the Community Wishlist Survey is it allows a bottom-up process where any individual can contribute basic ideas, there is a test of support from the broader community, and then the ideas are evaluated, refined and combined by facilitators. Some extra layers and mechanisms would have to be built in due to the differing domains, but I think that this can serve as a productive model.--Pharos (talk) 02:57, 22 May 2021 (UTC)[]

Movement Strategy update, May 19Edit

There is a new update published regarding the Movement Strategy, which you can find here. For easier access, I am sharing the points related to Movement Charter also here:

  • We are happy to announce two weekends of Global Conversations in June.
  • We want to present these Global Conversations as the official beginning of the Movement Charter work. In the previous months there have been different initiatives and discussions, and it is time to converge. For this reason, we are organizing a planning meeting to design together the Movement Charter conversations in June.
    • On the weekend of June 12 and 13, we will host a Global Conversation about the Movement Charter. The main objective is to define the Charter’s scope. We want to expand the current perspectives and include underrepresented groups.
    • This event will be similarly structured to the one in January focusing on the Global Council.
    • We will host two 4 hour sessions covering different time zones, one on June 12, 5:00 - 9:00 UTC (local time) and one on June 13, 16:00 - 20:00 UTC (local time).
    • Registration for this event will start May 27.
  • On May 31, we will host a small, two-hour meeting to plan the conversations about the Movement Charter in June. The objective is to bring together the promoters of different Movement Charter ideas and agree on the immediate next steps. This meeting will take place on May 31, from 15:30 to 17:30 UTC (local time). If you would like to attend, please email us your name and your objective for this session to strategy2030(_AT_)wikimedia.org.

--KVaidla (WMF) (talk) 10:55, 21 May 2021 (UTC)[]

We will work again with our vendor Insightpact, which supported us already organizing and facilitating our events in November, December, and January. We are happy to be working with you before, in, around, and after these events. Information about participation support for these events will be posted in the upcoming days Feel free to contact us when in doubt, either via email or in the Telegram group. --KVaidla (WMF) (talk) 10:55, 21 May 2021 (UTC)[]

Movement Charter proposal for next stepsEdit

Hi, after the Movement Charter conversations last weekend, we are proposing next steps for the next couple of weeks: Movement Strategy/Updates/June_15,_2021.

In the same link you can find the documents shared and produced last weekend. We are still working on the report. Qgil-WMF (talk) 18:32, 15 June 2021 (UTC)[]

This is an invitation to discuss three questions that need answers in order to create the Movement Charter drafting committee. You can find more context about these questions on Movement Strategy/Events/Movement Charter Global Conversation, 26-27 June 2021. Qgil-WMF (talk) 21:06, 16 June 2021 (UTC)[]

Category for proposed charters + elements?Edit

I know we've developed this timeline for building a formal charter-drafting body, and cascading towards standing up a Global Council. Are there also aspects we can develop in parallel, rather than in series, and that anyone can contribute to as they have time and inspiration? –SJ talk  17:48, 22 June 2021 (UTC)[]

  • Is there a category for proposed charters, so that people who want to draft an entire document (to illustrate how they see things holding together) can do so?
  • Ditto for elements to include in a charter -- it seems that we have a number of topics (high level, including 'values', 'accountability', 'decision-making' from a past draft; but also topical, such as 'role of the Global Council in decision-making'). Is there a category for these or a list that anyone can add to?

See also this comment. –SJ talk 

Examples of other chartersEdit

Charters for CSA networks: France (2014), global?

Process ConsensusEdit

There's a proposed process on this page, that was suggested by User:KVaidla (WMF). As far as I can tell, there hasn't been any community discussion about if the process is acceptable - it was proposed by a Foundation employee, and hasn't received any input from the community. I think it's important that the proposed process (the selection of a small charter-writing committee) achieve on-wiki consensus before it goes forwards, and especially before this novel process is substituted for our standard way of developing content and policy - participatory on-wiki discussions. As this is a movement-wide enterprise, decisions on process need to be made by traditional consensus, and not by Foundation fiat.

Hence, I'd like to start a straw poll as to if people support or oppose the proposed process. TomDotGov (talk) 00:58, 23 June 2021 (UTC)[]

  •   Oppose I don't think that appointing a closed committee like this is likely to achieve a successful outcome. It was tried in the movement branding process, and the result was a set of proposals that the community found unacceptable. A better alternative would be to draft the movement charter on a wiki page that anyone can edit, the same way that policy and content is created. TomDotGov (talk) 00:58, 23 June 2021 (UTC)[]
  •   Comment Superseded by Movement Strategy/Events/Movement Charter Global Conversation, 26-27 June 2021/Proposal by the Wikimedia Foundation. Qgil-WMF (talk) 20:30, 24 June 2021 (UTC)[]
    I don't believe this is the case. There hasn't, as far as I know, been a community decision to restrict things to a tiny and privileged drafting committee, as opposed to the more inclusive method used for legitimate process. If there has been a decision made by the community - and not WMF Staff fiat - could you point to the wiki page where the discussion occurred? TomDotGov (talk) 01:19, 25 June 2021 (UTC)[]
    @TomDotGov Ah, sorry, I misunderstood the purpose of this section. I thought you were specifically asking to the proposal the Foundation shared on the June 12-13 conversations about the Movement Charter. My intention with the comment above was to simply inform that such specific proposal has been superseded by the new one that I linked to. That's all, I'm sorry if I caused confusion. Qgil-WMF (talk) 11:40, 25 June 2021 (UTC)[]

Movement Charter drafting committee proposal by the Wikimedia FoundationEdit

Considering all the Movement Charter drafting committee proposals presented by different parties and the ongoing discussions, the Wikimedia Foundation presents this new proposal for discussion:

Movement Strategy/Events/Movement Charter Global Conversation, 26-27 June 2021/Proposal by the Wikimedia Foundation

We had presented a previous proposal during the last Global Conversations, on June 12-13. There we were told by several participants that

  • it is better to share proposals beforehand, so that people have time to review them
  • it is better to detach a new proposal from the program of the event, for fairness toward other proposals.

We are proceeding accordingly.

This aims to be a proposal to converge and agree on the next steps to create the drafting committee. It is based on solid principles but the implementation details are quite flexible. We welcome your questions, suggestions, objections, endorsements…. Please share them on the Talk page or the Movement Strategy Telegram group. Qgil-WMF (talk) 20:26, 24 June 2021 (UTC)[]

Hi, a lot was discussed about the Movement Charter drafting committee last week, and the Movement Strategy team is completing the report.
The proposal we shared received some good feedback, some mixed and yet curious feedback, and also some criticism. We are introducing some changes to this proposal to address the main concerns: the timeline and the possibility to vote.
Please review this proposed modification. We hope that we all can find a point of compromise and a way forward. Qgil-WMF (talk) 09:34, 30 June 2021 (UTC)[]

Question about Movement Charter and Global CouncilEdit

Hello, please forgive me if I have missed the relative section as I have not had the time to go over or even find a lot of the information regarding the Movement Charter and Global Council. I am not exactly sure how revenues and funds are handled within the Project although I know there is a board of some sort, but my question probably like a lot of people is whether or not either the Movement Charter or Global Council are intended to supplant the administration functions and processes in place for the individual Wiki's, as in my opinion (and many others) they do quite well in self-sustaining/ policing as well as inclusion, as far as the content side goes (again I am not familiar with the financial side, other than a lot of people, professional or otherwise, donate a lot of time for managing, programming, etc..) I don't understand exactly what the frequently-used term "diversity" is pertaining to specifically, or if it is meant in a broader sense, because again, I myself see a wide range of content from a wide range of views, and I have taken a fair amount of time and have a thorough knowledge of geography and history from around the World (plus I am obsessive compulsive so I cannot "skip over" any areas or groups), so I believe I can keep impartial quite well when I say that.

I have not read enough on here to comment about this movement specifically, but I would caution in general that sometimes using words like "inclusion", etc.., when pertaining to creating a higher level of authority, are actually used to subvert and consolidate authority to fewer people, and in effect have the opposite outcome, essentially de-democratizing a system or organization. So basically I guess I am wondering if this movement, which as I understand it takes effect around 2022, is meant to reinforce the existing structure of the Wiki projects and how the finances are handled or if it is meant to replace and/or re-arrange the foundational and management systems that have been in place in any way? Again I apologize if I missed any sections that address this, so any clarification would be appreciated, thank you.--JLavigne508 (talk) 14:11, 8 July 2021 (UTC)[]

A recent overview of Movement Charter initiative is available, indicating the charter iteslf is meant to define the roles and responsibilities of the Global Council, and currently steps are being taken towards forming the drafting committee in a diverse, equitable, and inclusive way (most recently during Movement Charter Global Conversation). Ensure Equity in Decision-making involves "enabling empowerment of local communities". Xeno (WMF) (talk) 15:36, 8 July 2021 (UTC)[]
@JLavigne508: A major purpose of the Global Council is to make "movement-wide" decisions. The Strategy Recommendations bring up the issue that a lot of responsibilities in that area have ended up in the hands of the Wikimedia Foundation and the Board, and they're really not suited to handling those things. (The Board is set up to be able to govern a specific non-profit organization, but not really a global volunteer movement centered around wikis.) The GC will also handle responsibilities relating to resource allocation and enforcing certain standards in Wikimedia organizations. It will not supplant any wikis' internal administration, nor any on-wiki decision-making structure regarding content or local policy, to the best of my knowledge. --Yair rand (talk) 16:02, 8 July 2021 (UTC)[]
Oh okay thank you Yair rand that makes sense to me. Like I said I knew a lot of people are giving a lot of their time for management on various boards on here, and it seems that is the general focus of what a lot of these efforts are focused on from what I can tell also, and again I am definitely not familiar with the specifics concerning all of that. I hope any of the changes here can help that end of things go more smoothly and efficiently, and helps keep the Projects running and growing. I will look further into it to see if there is anything I can do to help. Take care.--JLavigne508 (talk) 06:13, 10 July 2021 (UTC)[]

Drafting Committee Call for Candidates draft publishedEdit

We have published a draft of the call for candidates for the Movement Charter Drafting Committee. This is now marked for translation and in the upcoming days there will be translations available in a number of languages.

Over the course of the next 10 days we will be collecting feedback regarding this draft and making necessary changes based on the suggestions received. We have tried to converge different viewpoints presented in previous discussions and hope there is not a need for substantial changes. In this anticipation we are looking forward to launching the call for candidates on August 2, 2021.

We are here to hear your feedback and answer any questions or specifications! --KVaidla (WMF) (talk) 20:01, 21 July 2021 (UTC)[]

No Disabilities again, too?Edit

I am very disappointed the Disabilities are excluded from the ‘diversity’; who are proper for including them in the overall Wikimedia movement processes. Therefore, I express regret to the Wikimedia Foundation for the Foundation does not regard any wikimedians with Disabilities to their party for cooperation. - Ellif (talk) 05:50, 31 July 2021 (UTC) / 08:41, 9 August 2021 (UTC)[]

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