Talk:DialectWiki

I was not aware of talk pages. As you see I'm new to Wikipedia and don't know all the power and opportunities it contains. I would be very delighted by any help, suggestions or ideas about my proposal. Extra spirit and input to motivate people for realizing this project is appreciated.

Bovelett 12:59, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

• There is a subpage in German: Talk:DialectWiki/De. --Purodha Blissenbach 11:23, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

I would like to add a summary in English about what has been discussed in the menatime on the discussion page in German. This is to allow more people from the rest of the world to join and to share their thoughts if they are interesting to put this project up.

Bovelett 12:05, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Summary

To all the dialect friends around the world. Please help me with you ideas and Wikipedia know-how to bring this idea on air. I contacted several language institutes & Wikipedias in dialect for support. --Bovelett 10:02, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Hello Achim Bovelett,

to me your project is very interesting but I would like to know about the aim of this project:

- is it to setup a dialect dictionary?

- or a collection of spoken recordings?

- which dialects should be included?

- all German dialects?

- all European dialects?

- all dialects of the world?

Greetz

--Holder-als from Alemannic Wikipedia 12:28, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Hello Holder,

I’m glad that you are interested in this project and also your feedback is very helpful. I see the major challenge to get the project pushed in clear communication by the way: Exactly, the aim is an dictionary with audio fragments which can also contain whole sentences. I contacted Paul Hemetsberger who put something similar together with an audio module to do the recordings: http://www.dict.cc/ Basically all dialects, regional languages a.s.o. can be part of the project. It depends on initiative and motivation, I contacted 20 European and 4 American Institutes about that. The main idea is to embed a map such as : http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/WikiMiniAtlas/de . This map may contain an additional layer (GoogleMaps has some buttons for additional layers satellite view, terrain a.s.o).That would allow that each contributor can link the place where he is from with geographic data linked within a database. The dialect map should be preconfigured with certain areas to group the entries on a regional base, e.g the director of the Scottish language institute suggested that there are 5 main dialects in Scotland. Ideas or knowledge to embed the map and to link the database would be very appreciated. Best regards --Bovelett 12:10, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Meta Wiki is for discussing about Wikimedia projects. What you are suggested would be at the at most a new project. It could belong also to the range of Wikiversity.

--Ziko 21:16, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Hello Ziko,

I’m installing Moodle to test if it has similar capabilities as Wikiversity has. At least there is also a audio module, a geographic data module and a SCORM interface. Bovelett 12:59, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Original at: ksh:Wikipedia Klaaf:Op dr Eck#DialektWik

Hi Bovelett

I have a collection of 30 Links about dictionaries and also a MultidialectWiki. Some of them reached a certain amount of entries and contribution. I have respect for people who start these projects out of nothing but I’m also thinking that it will a lot of effort for not too much result and fall into sleep after a while (app. 4 years).

I would like to refer to some initiatives which had been initiated before:

1. http://germazope.uni-trier.de/Projects/WBB/lemmasearch

2. http://edoc.hu-berlin.de/histfor/10_I/PHP/Woerterbuecher_2007-10-I.php#007001

3. http://Wiktionary.org/

4. http://OmegaWiki.org/

5. http://www.mitmachwoerterbuch.lvr.de/mitmachwoerterbuch.php

6. Rhenanian dictionary (book in 9 parts, took 100 years), not readable for John Doe.

I really appreciate the idea about linking spoken language to geographic data. I think it’s very good to embed audio. Written dialects work with written language and even when being very precise with the spelling rules it’s very hard to document it and a normal human being can neither write nor read it.

It will also be difficult to transfer audio data in a written phonetic alphabet form ( en:Rheinische Dokumenta UniversityMarburg ). Probably this program can do that: Praat (Talk) To find a software to setup a dictionary I don’t recommend existing Wikis (negative example Wiktionary) because not they are not powerful and structured without additional effort. Probably WikiData of OmegaWiki would be useful. A cooperation might be possible. That would mean that the static language definitions could be replaced or appended with geodating definitions.

I think that on long terms there should be a co-operation between the 1000 dialect societies and an organization at least on European level to join to get a stable base.

I appreciated your reaction.

--Purodha Blissenbach (Klaaf) 17:30, 16. Jan 2009 (CET)

Hello Blissenbach. I was very delighted about your reaction. You nailed it and made some strong points. Rhenanian dictionary: Scientific work in book form costs decades and is obsolete already when published. Who is served by this and who reads or can read these encyclopedias? Rhenanian documenta (as an example for a dialect related phonetic language): Even for the speaker of the dialect reading is difficult, writing nearly impossible (if you manage o get the fonts on your PC), better create audio books. Yep, would like to create a dummy within Wikiversity, which contains the technical needs, doing some PR and offer language institutes or dialect societies to cross-link with this portal or embed it too their web appearances or vice versa.

Based on my experience and reaction the last days I’m pretty convinced that there will be enough contribution if the page once is online. My problem at the moment is to integrate a geographic template since I’m not experienced (popup, iFrame, {coord....}, SQL a.s.o) to link it to an audio module like this: http://www1.dict.cc/contribute/?action=audio-history&f=--TODO If the EU contributes subsidiary money as requested we can probably ask a web developer who is capable of implementing maps which can be contributed of institutes or friends of dialects. To link areas on the map that should possible with polygons created in Flash?) to be linked to the database. Yesterday I downloaded „Praat“ (http://www.fon.hum.uva.nl/praat/) and I will test it. The developers are around the corner here in Amsterdam and I might contact them.

--Bovelett 10:48, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Hello Bovelett do you know Wiktionary That is a similar project. Probably we can start there to embed your project. Using .ogg files would be a good option which would be of inters for Wikionarians. Greetz--Zenit 13:52, 18 January 2009 (UTC) @Bovelett: see also speaking dialect map of Bavaria. Recently created, probably good for some hints.

. --- Kind regards, Melancholie 21:56, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

To me Wiktionary is a failure from the technical point of view, much work, not much result.

Regarding recording libraries:

http://shtooka.net/soft/shtooka_recorder/en/ http://shtooka.net/ http://www.yojik.eu/pmwiki.php?n=Yojik.LeYazikRecorder&userlang=en

Here you will find a list of people which might know how to structure and where to discuss the idea of „DialektWiki“: http://www.glottopedia.org/index.php/Glottopedia:About

I’m not sure about using certain map material and where to find the resources. If I remember it correctly that there are some on Erweiterungen für MediaWiki or probably Semantic MediaWiki with SemanticMappoint. At least one collaborative open source map project exists at Open StreetMap. It’s also not very clear to me how the mapping of linguistic an map data could work in general. I ask because I consider avoiding some obvious predictable problems.

--Purodha Blissenbach 08:05, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Hallo Blissenbach,

1) I joined Glottopedia, very good link!

2) downloaded shtooka and also had a look on Yazik. That leads to the point.

3) also .ogg files are used here and you can add comments to them which can be could be mapped e.g. using php

4) I din’t know morst of you links but some are very intersting. I was thinking about the ones with a crosshair):

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&q=http:%2F%2Ftools.wikimedia.de%2F~kolossos%2Fwp-world%2FCoordsForWikipedia.kml&ie=UTF8&ll=52.48278,14.051514&spn=38.87701,82.089844&t=k&z=4&om=1

I found it at http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Geocoding .

Many thanks again. On the map there are buttons for "map", "satellite" & "terrain". I’m planning an additional layer for dialect maps containing dialect borders. It could be done with creating polygons in a map in flash style. I will try to implement this on http://www.creativetranslations.eu/DialectWiki/ If you have further info which predictable difficulties you see please share. Would an incubator be a good plan. I don’t know much about this feature.

Jrööß Bovelett 11:56, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

@Audiobibliothek: see also http://forvo.com/languages/de/ (it’s one of the more active sites). --- Best regards, Melancholie 13:00, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

User:Holder-als has also found a nice site: http://www.dialektkarte.de/ they should be able to help with some technical stuff. --- Kind regards, Melancholie 13:18, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Hello Holder & Melancholie,

yes, this comes very close to my basic idea. I made an acoount there and contacted the administrator via mail. He has managed already to combine audio and an interactive map. Porbably he is willing to cooperate or extend the idea. Don’t want to violate his copyright if applicable. The quiz on this page is a very, very good idea as well. Best regards Bovelett 17:45, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

1. There will be a Developer meet-up 2009 with some people experienced in these matters. At the moment I tend to go on based on MediaWiki + extensions. It could be presented and discussed there. 2. Regarding the ideas contributed and the people taking part into this discussion I have the feeling that this is on a good way. ;-) --Purodha Blissenbach 11:20, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

The meeting is 3.-5 april. I don’t know much about this kind of events but probably I can join in. This is what I had in mind about how the map might look like:

http://www.bl.uk/learning/langlit/sounds/regional-voices/lexical-variation/

Bovelett 15:50, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Continued discussion

I know that people often are not aware of differences between (broad) local dialect an regiolect variants of speech, and maybe even colloqual standard language. So, we will have to accept getting submissions being miscategorized by submitters. Since we will get these non-dialect and peripheral-to-dialect contributions, I suggest to keep them — despite the fact, that they are not (plain) dialect. Most prominent among several reasons for keeping them are: they have a research value on their own, rejecetion might be socially destructive, and jeopardizing community buildup.

See http://www.bl.uk/learning/langlit/sounds/find-out-more/received-pronunciation/ and especially the section "There’s more than one RP" so as to get an impression of the complexities of the subject matter involved.

Compare this with (current) Language Subcommittee or OmegaWiki policies of accepting languages (almost) entirely based on their presence in ISO 639-3 — We are in a completely different field here, talking about variants and gradual shifts. I should mention code switching. As e.g. an almost recent publication of the Akademie för uns kölsche Sproch shows, much of the everydays communications in their research field involve dialect plus some regiolect, or even some standard German. Speakers virtously switch between them, as they see fit.

Even more complex patterns pertain to migrant groups having gained some dialect + regiolect + superstandard competence in their new environments.

Now back to classification. Not only may intonations be anywhere between 'broadly' or 'slightly' dialectal, you cannot even put entire sentences into one or the other 'class', or language variety, at times. This suggests to classify using quantifiers, or quantifying attibutes, like 100% South-Stueget-Swabian, or 80% Missingsch+20%Hamburger Plattdüütsch. I know that, such things are complicated, but missing those aspects planning the endeaver would likely result in severe drawbacks of the value of collected data later. --Purodha Blissenbach 12:41, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

References

Hello Bovelett,

on this Wiki it’s rather quiet at the moment, we have not much registered native speakers active yet.  :-( But I like your proposal very much. It should be followed up. To achieve more publicity I placed two entries on Hauptseite resp. Main page. Please keep it up, although it maybe tough in first instance. Probably also refer to Ziko who is known as a very ambitious fighter for multilanguage support at Wikipedia. My impression is that he is far into the ‘machinery’ so that he may be able to clear the way. Joining a dialogue with him could bring progress to your proposal.

Best regards --Marbot 18:47, 26. Jan. 2009 (UTC)

Hello Purodha,

what you mentioned above is a valuable question. That was also the reason to approach Wikipedians since here are enough skilled people. Wikipedia contains some elements to avoid irritations or annoyances such as discussion pages and forums.

I by the way cannot speak my dialect 100% perfect either because I learned it later on. E.g. if you add different version for the same thing you can make additional remarks. The database should be capable of taking care.

A too narrow-minded scientific approach to me results in pushing dialects into a dead end corner. I made once an essay about the phonetic system of a certain dialect but who ever read that or is willing to read it? There have been also endless discussions about structuring dialects and their status. But what for?

If we are able to develop a dialect map we have to trust on (native) dialect speakers from a certain area or country to find an agreement on structuring it but I will trust on them having the global objective in mind.

I would be glad if we had already some code to test in within sandbox/incubator. I’m convinced that then enough participation will come. If we look from the heritage point of view just to preserve the dialects from disappearing a few native and skilled speakers would already help us.

Also interactions with the dialect Wikipedias would help both and I also hope that language institutes will join when better understanding our idea. The good thing is that they’re all non-profit so that there shouldn’t be much obstacles.

It would be important to me if someone could share his knowledge about coding or have contacts pointing in this direction. Probably there is someone out who can put the audio and the map part together or can estimate the effort which is necessary to achieve that goal. If appreciated I would be able to setup an audio conference.

Best regards Bovelett 11:24, 27 January 2009 (UTC) 10:12, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Hello,

please have a look here: http://tools.freeside.sk/geolocator/geolocator.html

If you press Alt & clicking you can get the geodata.

Daniel has found a solution to create own maps with polygon technique:

http://www.schwen.de/GMap/Docs

And here you can edit borders under "Add place“: http://www.wikimapia.org/

There is also a opportunity to link media information to geodata (that should also work with audio files): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GeoTagging

From a technical point of view everything is in house but I don't have the technical skills to get that compiled. I can't get further than „Template Loops detected“ (newbie). Do you have any idea what to do?

Best regards Bovelett 13:27, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

6 steps

I found this extension which really would push us forward: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:DatabaseGoogleExtension

But there are 6 obstacles inbetween because I don't understand how to get it implemented according the manual. I have an API key but for the rest I'm lost. Please help if you have an idea?

Bovelett 15:50, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

News & ‘to do'

1) contacted Sonologic, they might help with the implementation on TestWiki

2) contacted also Raimond Spekking who would help with technical aspects as well

3) will join Developer Meeting 2009 in Berlin 3rd-5th of April to check about the technical requirements and to find a location for the project

4) contacted my former university professors and some linguists who are interested in the project and would be open for cooperation

5) virtual manuals and tutorials to handle the Wiki for people new to Wikipedia (account creation, add contributions (audio & maps), usage of discussion pages)

6) find opportunities for embedding/interlinking with to language institutes/faculties and existing DialectWikipedias

7) ideas to make the project public and to reach out for any interested people. A lot of similar initiatives ran dead on a shortage of contributors. A DialectWiki has the advantage that a few speakers would be enough per dialect. A dynamic power-point presentation will be created on that item

8) suggestions to group the dialects and to create the appropriate maps

9) embed a lot of additional information regarding dialects, see e.g. Kölsch

Bovelett 11:45, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

I added two Demos how it would look like when recording & creating maps of dialect areas: demo

Bovelett 12:28, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

We decided to take part in a joint venture with the Vox Humanitas project. They developed an elaborated and brilliant concept for structuring the backbone/database part: Ambaradan storage engine.

This engine gives us several opportunities to integrate with geodata and audio and some decisions have already been made: Ambaradan & Shtooka recorder.

We are gathering addresses of all sort of people and organizations regarding dialects. So feel free to add or submit your credentials or e-mail address to be part of the project when it will be launched or to be updated via newsletters.

Bovelett 15:30, 26 May 2009 (UTC)