Requests for new languages/Wikipedia Montenegrin 2

Montenegrin Wikipedia edit

See also the third (rejected), fourth (rejected), and fifth (on hold) requests.

submitted verification final decision
  This proposal has been rejected.
This decision was taken by the language committee in accordance with the Language proposal policy based on the discussion on this page.

The closing committee member provided the following comment:

This request has been rejected for the same reasons as the November 2006 request; the discussion below has not provided new information that would change this decision.

Wikis should not be split along political lines, and we encourage Montenegrin editors to collaborate with Serbian or Serbo-Croatian editors in a single wiki or, at the very least, to have Montenegrin pages alongside the others. If political divisions make this difficult, please note that the Wikimedia Foundation's goal is giving every single person free, unbiased access to the sum of all human knowledge, and not to contribute to political development or to provide information from individual political communities.

Although other Serbo-Croatian languages have their own wikis, these were created before the existence of the language subcommittee and it is likely that no new projects will be created in these languages. —{admin} Pathoschild 22:04:13, 06 April 2007 (UTC)

But admin this language is not different due to politics, but due to an extensive seperate vocabulary, seperate grammar, and 3 extra sounds that are not found in any other south-slavic language! Denying the right to use this language is un-democratic, and un-fair! If this was no different than bosnian or serbian I wouldn't mind but the fact is, that if you speak in full Montenegrin to a Serbian, half of the time he won't understand you! This is mostly due to a seperate set of Montenegrin words that are set apart from the other yugoslav languages, and although they arent used by all montenegrins, they are nothing but Montenegrin words and unconditional parts of the Montenegrin language!
Proposal summary
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The proposed Montenegrin language is the Montenegrin successor to the Serbo-Croatian language, with differences between Crotian, Serbian, and Bosnian, but is somewhat similar to the Serbian spoken in Bosnia to a lesser extent. Currently, in the draft of the future Constitution of Montenegro, the language marked official for Montenegro is stated as the Montenegrin language. Even though only about 144,000 people (or 25%) of the population of Montenegro speak Montenegrin (according to 2003 census, numbers could've changed), there are even more abroad.. We expect the project to be a success and accepted into the Wikipedia community, especially, with the opening of two test wikis and one test incubator. By the way, whoever is intersted in helping out with the project, they may do so by supporting this proposal.

Ali najsmješnije jeste to što ovđe niko neće da priča taj tzv. srpsko-hrvatski, svi se poenglezili. A i najbolje mi je to što Srbi ne daju da se napravi CG Wikipedija, a onda optužuju Crnogorce da su nakloni Hrvatima, i da su zapravo korijenima Hrvati. Sad ja kao Hrvat pozivam Crnogorce da slobodno koriste, uređuju i pišu našu Wikipediju, jer mi s tim nemamo problema, i podržavamo stvaranje slobodne Wikipedije za nezavisnu Crnu Goru!

Arguments in favour edit

Not for Wikimedia to decide whether this language should "exist". Though I must admit I am intrigued by the prospect of a language proposal for "bunjevski" Wikipedia. Bring on the free paper of the Web! --Dzordzm 13:24, 8 March 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • strong support I do not agree with PSPKoto, however, I do support the project. If Anglosaxon can be a project and if Anglosaxon is working to create Wikinews in Anglosaxon, then Montenegrin has full right to get its own wiki. There is a Serbo-Croatian wikipedia. This is insane considering that there is a Bosnian wiki, Croatian wiki, and Serbian wiki. All the Serbo-Croatian wiki does is copy from one wiki to its own. Now you may see the creation of the Montenegrin wiki as redundant and I understand this, but if Anglosaxon and languages long extinct can have wikis, then there is no reason why Montenegrin shouldn't be able to have one. If users are willing to write in their own language then they should be able to express their culture. It might not be internationally recognized, but a majority of Montenegrins say that they speak Montenegrin. (It will be internationally recognized...Most likely, since they are independent and those who were for the independence of Montenegro, will want their own language) They have different accents and some different words (i.e. Sjutra etc.) Their language is being re-born. Therefore, I support this decision. Kseferovic 23:05, 21 January 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Not quite correct - the vast majority of Montenegrins say they speak Serbian. --PaxEquilibrium 14:20, 11 March 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Strong support If there is a Wikipedia on Bosinan, which was created in 1995 as a part of the peace in Bosnia, and Serbo-Croatian,which is practically non-existent language,what is the problem with Montenegrin? I would also ask you the members who oppose this proposition to leave their nationalist POV and bias aside, and also to remind the this is not about individuals,so I dont see how is cheap talk about CrnaGora relevant for this discussion.Cheers! Sideshow Bob 22:47, 23 January 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]
"If two mistakes were made, let's make one more—the more, the merrier." --Dzordzm 13:24, 8 March 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Strong support My preference no.1 remains having only one wikipedia, the Serbo-Croatian one. There is only one English wikipedia. For some political and historical reasons, there are separate Serbian, Croatian and Bosnian wikipedias??? Aparently because we South-Slavs are too hot-headed, with ancient hatreds toward one another, unreasonable etc. etc. so its best to keep us all boxed up... Well, we somehow managed to come to some sort of compromise on the English wikipedia, so that argumentation fails miserably. As a native Montenegrin, I DO NOT WANT to contribute to the Serbian, or any other South-Slav wikipedia. In the case of Serbian, they even deny the very existance of my nation and the language. Writing on their turf, I would just confirm that, let alone that I would have to adjust my language and bow to their standards, and that movie they will not see. There are other people, like me, on the Wikipedia that share the same feelings, the potential that will remain unharnessed without the Montenegrin Wikipedia. As for the linguistics of the Montenegrin language, the very own wikipedia's article can give some more information, don't forget to have a look at the "discussions" as well, don't want to repeat myself here. Regards, Momisan 22:47, 27 January 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]
If you do not wish to contribute to srwiki that is perfectly fine. The relevant point is, if you change your mind and decide to contribute, that is perfectly fine too. And the argument about "turf"... OMG... WP:NPOV seems lost on some people --Dzordzm 13:24, 8 March 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Support I'll just quote Orwell: "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others." I also think that the two-letter Montenegro ISO country code ME is better than CG Edin1 23:16, 27 January 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Support There is only Balkan national argument against. Montenegrin wikipedia do not need nothing which is not usual wikipedia practis. --OutLook 17:32, 28 January 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Support ==> (1) Since I consider the Serbian and Montenegrin language(s) practically identical, yet it takes me half an hour to read a paragraph in cyrillic, I wouldn't mind having 2 Serbian Wikipedias (which is what this would create) at all (one I can read fast and the other... not so fast hehe)! (2) There should really be only 1 Wikipedia for Croatia/Bosnia/Serbia/Montenegro and that is a Serbo-Croat Wiki, but that will never happen. So, in order to be 'fair', if Bosnian & Croatian wikis exist, a Montenegrin one should too. (3) If people are willing to put in the effort, let them. No harm comes from this. (However, negative aspects do exist, as illustrated by other users, some being: lack of user base and potential for political soapboxing. The argument is: are they enough to prevent a Montenegrin wiki from existing?) Stop The Lies 05:01, 30 January 2007 (UTC)Stop_The_LiesReply[reply]
Removing argument (1), I just discovered the Serbian Latin wiki!!! I'm excited :D Stop The Lies 05:09, 30 January 2007 (UTC)Stop_The_LiesReply[reply]
Wow, your argument is vague... I'll be on way creating a Canadian wiki, because I have the right to do so. It's loud and clear. --Krytan 18:16, 30 January 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]
What is the percentage of the Canadian population that declared themselves as speakers of Canadian in the official Census? Montenegrin is a living language, not so sure about Canadian. --Montenegrins 01:52, 01 February 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Surely you do not expect "they have the right to do so" to count as an argument. --Dzordzm 13:24, 8 March 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Montenegrin language (in a base form) has three letters more than rest of Balkan languages - Śś, Źź and Dz dz. Many of Montenegrin expressions are simply forbidden as rural, which resulting by constant vanishing of that words and Montenegrin culture! --OutLook 02:25, 31 January 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]
What on earth are you talking about? --PaxEquilibrium 14:34, 11 March 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • STRONG SUPPORT More than one-fifth of Montenegro's population officially declared themselves as speakers of Montenegrin language. The government has its official web page in Montenegrin. All talk of Serbian being the same as Bosnian and Croatian is no longer true. Languages evolve and for example, Serbo-Croat does not exist any more in real life - on the ground in the Balkans. Who can say that Serbo-Croat is not the same as Serbian? But, still no one uses Serbo-Croat - it is a dead language. Montenegrin has been born. So live with it. Montenegrins 01:48, 01 February 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]
That is not correct. That is still "true". The languages are separate only in a political sense because of ultra-nationalism. Tens of thousands of people use "Serbo-Croat", and internationally linguistically, "Serbo-Croatian" is the language spoken in ex Yugoslavia (serious apolitical linguists do not recognize the nationalist division). It's not dead and won't be for a long time (as long as it has more than twenty million speakers. --PaxEquilibrium 14:34, 11 March 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • If I might add that the figures are from 2003, and there has been a large rise in number of people who declare native speakers of Montenegrin, and by now the figures of Serbian and Montenegrin speakers have, roughly estimated, switched, since more and more Montenegrins (and other minorities except Serbs) are speaking Montenegrin, rather than Serbian. Sideshow Bob 21:57, 1 February 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Original research. A new census happenned in the meantime? --Dzordzm 13:24, 8 March 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I hardly think that the majority now speaks Montenegrin instead of Serbian; but it's true that there's been a significant raise. --PaxEquilibrium 14:34, 11 March 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]
So, basically you are against Montenegrin Wikipedia, but You vote for only because of your hatred toward Serbs? -- 21:35, 2 March 2007 (UTC) --BokicaK 21:37, 2 March 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Montenegrins do not plan on writing "ne cu" as two words, which of course is about to mark the crucial divergence of Croatian language from that/those used by their Balkan neighbors. --Dzordzm 13:24, 8 March 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Ignore; words of a blocked trollish user (referring to CroDome). --PaxEquilibrium 14:34, 11 March 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Support After seeing Language proposal policy only reason to oppose Montenegrin language Wikipedia is: "The language is sufficiently different from any current language to be mutually incomprehensible". With existence of Wikipedia on Serbo-Croatian, Serbian, Croatian and Bosnian, precedent already exists, because all of these languages are not "mutually incomprehensible", quite contrary. I would prefer one Wikipedia for all these languages, but since we already have separate ones, I see no reason to exclude Montenegrin. As for census in 2003, one must also know that in that census we weren't even offered amongst answers to choose Montenegrin, but every single one who said that he/she speaks Montenegrin, had to choose Other and then put Montenegrin, so my guess is that there were many who put Serbian by automatism. Requiem mn 13:33, 24 February 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Hardly (see below). -- 22:03, 3 March 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]
"If two mistakes were made, let's make one more—the more, the merrier." --Dzordzm 13:24, 8 March 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Support Friend of mine (Requiem_mn) invites me to support Montenegrin language Wikipedia. I think that is a great idea and I want to be a part of it. I agree that Serbo-Croatian, Serbian, Croatian and Bosnian languages are not mutually incomprehensible (in line with precedent of Language proposal policy) and because of that I see no reason to exclude Montenegrin language. I also think that a lot of people will choose Montenegrin language instead of Serbian or Croatian because they choose these languages by automatism. Please join us, and help to make our own Wikipedia! CaSPeR 15:26, 24 February 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]
If that's the case, that you shouldn't have voted: This is not a vote; you only have to express arguments here why should Wikipedia be created (and respond to those why it should not). Montenegrin's different from the three as it has not yet been established. Also, considering that censuses are conducted every decade or so, I hardly think the people would be so reckless. ;) -- 22:03, 3 March 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Support If Serbian, Croatian and Bosnian Wikipedias exist, why not a Montenegrin. Yes, it would be better if they were all under a Serbo-Croatian Wikipedia, with tabs changing the language to either Serbian, Bosnian, Croatian and Montenegrin, but I guess It'll never happen. I do agree that it is an extremely great idea. Montenegro 23:57, 1 March 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Why will that never happen? -- 22:03, 3 March 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Support Good luck with it! :) Vince from Hungarian wikipedia. 23:40, 31 March 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Arguments against edit

  • First, Montengrin is currently simply another name for Serbian. It differs in name only (unlike Bosnian and Croatia, which are different, about as different as American English and British English - Montenegrin supposedly differs in half a dozen words, and those are also used in Serbian), and isn't codified at all. There is no standard Montenegrin literary language. It doesn't exist as a separate language, and Wikipedia is not the place to create it. Second, as the linguistic differences to Serbian are utterly negligible, the only possible purpose of a Montenegrin Wikipedia is as a political soapbox. Why can't we work together on the Serbian language Wikipedia - better have one NPOV Wikipedia than two biased (useless) ones. Third, do we really need a fifth Serbo-Croat Wikipedia? They're just a waste of space, since each is duplicating the others' work.--Hadžija 08:39, 21 January 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Differences between ijekavica Serbian and Montegrin are practically non-existent. Only difference is somewhat different vocabulary of "Montenegrin" (some archaic and foreign words) but even these words aren't accepted as a standard in Montenegro and they're used only in some parts of Montenegro. Language isn't ISO acknowledged, it isn't even in the Montenegrin constitution yet (it's still Serbian). Starting wikipedia on this dubious language would be a waste of space. Users from Montenegro should come to the Serbian wiki (and there already are members from CG) where they have full possibility to write in the way they speak.Velimir85 09:36, 21 January 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • The "language" really doesn't differ from the Serbian language. Montenegrin isn't even ISO acknowledged as Velimir stated. Why don't we all just contribute to the Serbian wiki instead? The admins of Wikimedia already encouraged Montenegrin editors to collaborate with Serbian editors. --Krytan 17:30, 21 January 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • OPPOSE * Not a real language, and the person who proposed it can't speak any form of Serbo-Croatian correctly.Jedi Svinje 01:49, 22 January 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    Watch it, I know how to speak all forms of Serbo-Croatian. I know how to speak Montenegrin very well, because I am Montenegrin. The language does differ from the other forms of Serbo-Crotian, just like Bosnian, Croatian and Serbian differ from each other. You apparently don't because you're mocking me on how I don't and yet I do. --CG (Crna Gora) 02:18, 22 January 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    I like how you "vowed" to never return to Wikipedia, but in fact, you never left. Please, make things easier on yourself and leave for once and take the concept of a Montegerin "language" with you. We don't need clutter. And speaking of your impeccable Serbian-Croatian, I like how on your user page you said you visted the "United States of America - Sjedenih Američke Države", which in fact should be " Sjedinjene Američke Države". What you said refers to something as having been eaten, so you've been to the "Eaten States of America". Very nice. I can recommend some great grammar books if you like, just ask anytime. See you again, old friend. Jedi Svinje 05:41, 22 January 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]
    The linguistic abilities of the proposer or of any participant is not relevant. The community's ability to write will be judged based on the test project, not this discussion. Please try to avoid discussing other participants to prevent unnecessary disputes. —{admin} Pathoschild 02:24, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
  • It surely is important, as this would be the only person contributing to such a project. And what's the point of starting a new Wiki if it's filled with grammatical and spelling errors by the peron who proposed it in the first place? It wouldn't hold up to Wikipedia standards. Anyhow, it's bound to self-destruct. Jedi Svinje 05:41, 22 January 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Response to Kseferovic

Before I start, sorry for the verbosity of some sections of my argument, I'm trying to be as precise as possible. First, according to the census conducted under the pro-independence government of Montenegro in 2002, the Serbian name of the language (and the issue is about the name only) is preferred to the Montenegrin name 393,740 to 136,208 (3 to 1) in Montenegro itself, without even taking into account the vast number of Montenegrin citizens in the diaspora who are overwhelmingly pro-Serbian.[1] Secondly, there is no standard form of "Montenegrin", a fact which renders comparisons to Anglosaxon utterly irrelevant. The language used for documents, books, newspapers etc (anyway considered Serbian by 75% of its speakers in the country) differs in literally half a dozen words from the Serbian spoken in Serbia and the Serb Republic (compare kisjelo, sjutra, nijesam to kiselo, sutra, nisam - then look at English. Pants, trousers, popsicle, ice lolly, labour, labor. Is American a language?). The differences in spelling arise because the spelling is phonetic anyway. Imagine how different some English dialects would look if they were written phonetically! Thirdly, as regards the different accents. There are a few new letters that have been proposed. No-one uses them, not even the minority who refer to the dialects in question as Montenegrin. Fourthly, the language may be under construction (it can't be "re-born", as it has never existed before). However, as of January 2007 it has not been codified or internationally recognised. I'm sure its construction is not dependant on Wikipedia. So, when it has been constructed and is internationally recognised (i.e. has an ISO code at least), then we can talk about a coherent new language which can have its own Wikipedia. Fifth, that "users should have a right to express their culture" is not an argument. If something is NPOV, it is NPOV in English, Serbian or any other language. This line of argument only raises the spectre of the proposed Montenegrin Wikipedia being a political soapbox. Sixth, the Serbo-Croat Wikipedia is irrelevant here. Both this proposal and the Serbo-Croat Wikipedia should be evaluated on their own merits. Incidentally, if the Serbo-Croat Wikipedia is "insane" because it copies its articles (as you say, I don't know, myself), where will the Montenegrin Wikipedia get its articles? Given that it can draw on a population of at most 150,000 for users, the vast majority of whom do not have internet access? Why wouldn't it just copy articles from the Serbian Wikipedia? Seventh, assumingly all the previous discussed problems are overcome, would a Montenegrin Wikipedia be viable? How many contributors would there be? The only person seemingly willing to contribute to it is User:CG (the proposer), an admitted sockpuppeteer and (former?) contributor to the Serbian (language) Wikipedia. [2] [3] Does Wikimedia want to give anyone with a political chip on their shoulder their own free webspace to host their political rubbish? Or the reputation that goes with that? I can tell you, if word got out about the Siberian Wikipedia, which basically exists to host slurs against Russians, Wikipedia's reputation would be even worse than it is currently. I strongly suspect that a Montenegrin Wikipedia would host material unable to pass muster on the English and Serbian Wikipedias. Finally, I would like to say that all Montenegrin users, whatever their politics, are welcome at the Serbian Wikipedia, and there are many there already. I would like to encourage them to come and contribute. Why separate yourself into a Wiki-ghetto?--Hadžija 04:33, 22 January 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Siberian Wikipedia does not host any slur about Russians, this is only Russian lie, which was proven in the vote itself. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 10:05, 22 January 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Where are the Montenegrin users on your Serbian Wikipedia? I gave up contributing to the Serbian Wikipedia because I am sick and tired of writing in Cyrillic, it's so annoying, luckily, the Montenegrin language (well, at least, I hope not, discussions by many Montenegrins say no more of this) will not have the Cyrillic alphabet, even as a standard alphabet. Many Montenegrins, as well as others, consider the Cyrillic alphabet used in the former Yugoslavia as Serbian, as almost all Serbs use Cyillic more than they use Latin, compared to Bosniaks (Bosnian Muslims), Croats, and Montenegrins. Also, if there are Montenegrin users on your Serbian Wikipedia, compile a list of them and show it to me. By the way, the articles we will put are going to be from the test wiki projects I and the Montenegrin organisation, ITAM, made, we are not in cooperation whatsoever. --CG (Crna Gora) 20:27, 22 January 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]
sr:Корисник:Бојан appears to be from Montenegro and was working without any problems.
It would be nice if User:Jedi Svinje would identify himself, as his username appears to be insultive (literal translation: eat pigs).
However, some of his comments are valid. CrnaGora's Serbian/Montenegrin isn't very good, regardless of the alphabet[4].
I agree with Hadzija's comments and would like to add that Even though only about 144,000 people (or 25%) of the population of Montenegro speak Montenegrin (according to 2003 census, numbers could've changed), there are even more abroad.. is false. Montenegrins in diaspora identify as Serbs more oftenly than those in Montenegro. Nikola 21:37, 22 January 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • The proposed "language" has not been codified. It does not have a standard form and whatever reasonable standard form is adopted it will be much closer to Serbian language than U.S. English is to U.K. English. It does not have an ISO code. It is being proposed for the second time after having been rejected with no new factual information by a proposer who can hardly express himself in any South-Slavic dialect. Among the bounty of facts ignored by this proposal is that Serbian Wikipedia happily allows editing in both Cyrillic and Latin alphabets and in both ekavian and ijekavian standards. I say let the Montenegrin state, now unopressed from the alleged authoritirianism from Belgrade, develop a "new" language for its population, codify it and obtain an ISO classification and then come back to ask for an opinion. --Dzordzm 23:14, 22 January 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Oppose --Haris 17:05, 23 January 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Oppose As per Hadžija. 'Montenegrin" language is artificially created in last few years only for political purposes. And if user:Crna Gora doesn't like Cyrillic, it is his/her problem. We allowed users to write on both Latinic and Cyrilic. -- Bojan 17:40, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
  • I would support this, but I've got one little suggestion for the proponents: Wait until the new Constitution of Montenegro is passed, which should establish Montenegrin as an official language; it's bound to get an ISO code shortly after, and then your chances should be much higher. Just a bit of technical and procedural help. ;)Nightstallion (?) 15:43, 23 January 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Oppose as per Hadžija's convincing reasoning. The lack of codification is less of a problem for me (the vast majority of languages on this planet have never been codified), but the lack of linguistic abstand is, and so is the concern about lack of user base and potential for political soapboxing. Fut.Perf. 12:11, 25 January 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Oppose theres allready a wikipedia in this language, a montinegrin wikipedia is simply an additonal wikipedia in serbian with a differant name for political semantical reasons. Any article in Montenegrin will be alomost exactly the same as on the Serbian wikipedia. We dont have separate wikipedias even for dialects or standards of the same language and British English and American English vary far greater than Monetnegrin and Serbain, i suspect the only differances are local slang, no differant than slang is in Belgrade compared to Novi Sad, Australia and New Zealand both speak english not Australian and New Zealander. When Panama separated from Colombia they didnt suddenly start speaking Panamanian Spanish. If you want to create articles and contribute to an encyclopedia you allready can "Montenegrin" allready has a wikipedia the Serbian (Language) wikipedia. Dont feel offended its not the Serbian (Nation) wikipedia. Its not even a Serbian and Montenegrin wikipedia, its a wikipedia for all speakers of your language anywhere.Qrc2006 23:14, 28 February 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  • OPPOSE. I understand that people from around the world don't understand the complicated matters on Balcans, but don't pretend you do if you don't. There is nothing in common between English language being one language and Serbo-croatian. First, Serbo-croatian existed for a very brief period of time (relatively brief, 30 years). Second there are no suceeders of Serbo-croatian. Ser-cro language (temporarely) replaced Serbian and Croatian. But when SerCro split, it didn't split into just those 2 languages that made it, but 3. Why? After peace agreement in Bosnia in 1995, Bosniaks (Bosnian Muslims) had their (mini) state, but no language. See, they were in between Serbian and Croatian, but they could stand their language baring a name of any of two nations they fought in war. So they called their mix of Serbian and Croatian a Bosnian language ("Bosniak language" would be more accurate, since mayority Bosnians (Serbs+Croats) don't find this their language, only Muslims do). So, first there were Serbian and Croatian, then only 1 language (SerCro) and now there are 3. --Milant Talk 22:47, 5 April 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Never mind if there is (should / should not be) Montenegrin language. Lets tink about Wikipedia. One one hand, people in Montnegro do speak Serbian, and there a very prosperious Wikipedia in Serbian language. Also, since there is no chance that Wikipedias in Serbian, Croatian and Bosniak will ever unite into Wikipedia in Serbo-croatian there is no reason for this (SC) Wiki_p to exist. I don't see no point of having a fourth one, especialy since it does not have real contributions, but mostly copy-paste from other 3 Wikipedias in ex-SerCro languages. No, if I don't even support SerCro wiki, how could I support Montenegrin one? --Milant Talk 22:47, 5 April 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Lets leave all the language talk behind. I noticed some of guys from Montenegro working their ass out on Wikipedia in English, but I never saw them on Wikipedia in English. Some of them simply want to work there, but some of them are not active at the Serbian Wikipedia but would be active at Montenegrin Wikipedia, if such would exist. --Milant Talk 22:47, 5 April 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Also I read here Serbo-croatian beeing one language is an argument FOR Montenegrin Wiki? So, in this one language, there will be Serbian, Croatian, Bosniak, Serbo-croatian and Montenegrin Wikipedia? I wish there would be 3, which does not mean I don't see no future in Montenegrin Wikipedia. --Milant Talk 22:47, 5 April 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]
So if I think this Wiki could be active, why did I start this with Oppose? MonteN WikiP would have to start off as a fork of Wikipedia in Serbian - so why not work on the Wikipedia in Serbian? All who find a reason are actualy seeing the future Montenegrin Wikipedia as a political soapbox. --Milant Talk 22:47, 5 April 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I'm from Montenegro and I am active on Wikipedia in Serbian since Fall 2003. --Milant Talk 22:47, 5 April 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]
And for the end something just for laughs! Quote: all Montenegrins speak the Croatian language, but necessity cals for this to stop GreaterSerbdom that's trying to assimilate Montenegro/Montenegrins. - Serbs trying to assimilate somebody? And are you doing? Read the first half of you sentence. --Milant Talk 22:47, 5 April 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]

General discussion edit

I thought you left? -- 05:04, 23 January 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • A lot of the votes in the "against category" are based on political view points. If some language from the middle of China were to ask for permission to get a wiki, most of these users would not vote nor be interested in the vote itself. There seems to be a split between Montenegrins and Serbians that came from last years independence. Now you may accuse me and call me anything, but this seems to be the main issue, otherwise most of the users of the Serbian language would not mind it. I will not take the discussion further than this. Outsiders must accept that there is a large political focus. Oh yeah those Montenegrins that you speak of, tell them that there is a vote (and I mean explicitly tell them), I bet they would join. Montenegrin is someone who calls himself Montenegrin, not implying Serbians living in Montenegro, because they seem to continue calling themselves Serbian). Kseferovic 20:27, 22 January 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]
You've made a lot of mistakes and leaps of logic. However, the main thing is: comment on the arguments that have been presented, and not the people presenting them.--Hadžija 10:17, 23 January 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Alright then. We all understand that there is no language code for Montenegrin, this is a pure fact. However, this does not imply that the language does not exist. There are significant differences between Serbian and Montenegrin. I actually believe that the differences (which are due to dialects) are far greater than the differences between Serbian (ijekav) and Bosnian). In fact, if we could create a system that could change the interface between the languages (dialects) we could use one wiki. After all I have seen massive copying from one wiki to another. However, since such system has not been created (nor will be implemented due to nationalistic and political reasons) the Bosnian, Croatian, and Serbian wikis will exist. If they are able to exist then why should we block the Montenegrin language. I understand that it has not been implemented, however, that does not mean it does not exist. Montenegro is a young country, that is still finding its own identity. I agree with Nightstallion, let's wait for the official constitutional decision, since what the Montenegrin government decides is what is official for that country, no matter how much one does not support the independence or hates the government. Kseferovic 02:53, 24 January 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Yeah, like there are significant differences between London and Liverpool speech. Probably not even that much. I don't understand what the point of a Montenegrin Wikipedia is, when there isn't even a standard form of the supposed language - and if there were it would be like so close to Serbian (half a dozen spelling differences) that a Montenegrin Wikipedia would be utterly redundant. I don't see anyone so insecure about their national identity that they're proposing an American Wikipedia just because a few words are spelt differently. I guess they don't suffer from the "narcissism of small differences".
You again raise the point of Bosnian and Croatian. The difference is that there exist conventions on usage in those "dialects with armies". Also, please do not insult Montenegro (unintentionally of course, I'm just saying) by saying it is "young country". It has existed for centuries, and was one of the earlier Balkan countries to be internationally recognised, in 1878.
Further, whatever the language is called, the fact remains that it basically exactly the same as Serbian. What is the point? We can just rename the Serbian Wikipedia to some more "acceptable" name if it offends people so much that the Wikipedia they contribute to is the "Greater Serbian Chetnik" one.
As for the intergration of these Wikipedias of ours, I'm glad I'm not the only one who had that idea. Unfortunately, people enjoy writing their own political bullshit without having to justify it rigourously (as they would be forced to if they had to work with the "enemy" on an article). I believe it would be much more productive to integrate the Serbian, Serbo-Croat and Bosnian Wikipedias, something which could use an extended form of the ekavian-ijekavian convertor currently in the works for the Serbian Wikipedia, than to form a fifth Wikipedia in the same language (whatever you want to call it). If you're serious yourself, we can both sound out the idea with our respective Wikipedias.--Hadžija 03:40, 24 January 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I was never insulting Montenegro and I actually thought of the same thing you stated while writing the comment. All I am saying is that the nation has finally gotten its own independence and can start, once again, from anew, as all of the former Yugoslav nations did. The break-up was not easy (politically or economically). About the unification, I actually intended on having bars (as the Serbian wiki does) but instead of ijekav and ekav, use a highly developed (and I mean precise converter) that would switch from Bosnian to Croatian to Serbian (so the bars would have "Bosnian", "Croatian", "Serbian (ekav/ijekav)". (i.e. one article on dogs, but that can be converted to different languages). This is far better than keeping them separate. I mean we could easily increase the quality of the articles. It would have to be called "The yugoslav wiki," not implying Yugoslavia, but ethnically we are yugoslavs). Anyways this is a just a farce that will never be accomplished. Kseferovic 03:52, 24 January 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I totally agree, that's exactly how I imagined it. It wouldn't be too hard to make a Shtokavian wiki, but I also agree that our userbase isn't mature enough for such a move. The main problem is insecurity about national identity. Maybe in a couple of years, eh?--Hadžija 04:39, 24 January 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • People are still not presenting a case against my arguments...--Hadžija 23:37, 23 January 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • As I sad above, only obvious argument is nationalism or politic. No one, except Montenegrins, can understand a “Gorski vijenac” or “Primjeri cojstva i junastva”, without a dictionary. That is truly impossible for many nonmontenegrins because of plant of expressions which are characteristic only for state of Montenegro. Fact is, whit three of nonbalkan characters, Śś, Źź and Dz dz - Montenegrin is most special language on Balkan. In wikipedia noniso coded languages are usual practice; I really don’t see any reason why Montenegrins can’t write and read on their own language. --OutLook 17:01, 30 January 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Comment for OutLook: That is completely silly. Do you know that Gorski vijenac is casually read in all schools in Serbia, and so far only a small number of kids have had trouble with it. Considering the proportional number of Serbs:Montenegrins (30:1), then much more Serbs "understand" the mountain wreath than Montenegrins. You might think that my perfect understanding of Gorski vijenac has something to do with my overwhelming ethnic Montenegrin blood-cells - but it has nothing to do with that. :) That which you're saying is reminding me of eugenics. So much for "truly impossible". :D The same troubles do kids encounter in Montenegro (again, some). Those expressions are not characteristic solely for Montenegro. The proposed Montenegrin language bases itself upon several archaic words (that are archaic Serbian language words as well). The only reason why such a characteristic speech had survived there is some parts of Montenegro's isolation and thus, resistance to linguistic evolution (which caught up most of Serbia and Montenegro today). Montenegrins can and do write and read in their own language - and that language is the Serbian language. --PaxEquilibrium 17:37, 30 January 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Additionally, those characters you mentioned are proposed and never been used before. The Mountain Wreath (nor the other works) didn't contain the characters (so practically, those works weren't written in Montenegrin, but in Serbian rather - according to you). --PaxEquilibrium 14:49, 31 January 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]
  • Comment: The Test Project for this proposed Wikipedia is very odd. Its entire skeleton is in Croatian (I suppose it's been copied from the Croatian Wikipedia); the greatest part of its contents is written in Bosnian (articles're being copied from the Bosnian Wikipedia) and the remainder is written in plain literal Serbian. Not a single thing is in Montenegrin (but uses the standard Serbo-Croat wording from Bosnian/Croatian/Serbian). I'm afraid how would the real Montenegrin Wiki look like... --PaxEquilibrium 19:10, 30 January 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Response to PaxEquilibrium’s comments “the greatest part of its contents is written in Bosnian” – This is not true! As I explained to you on Montenegrowiki, that part of article (one part of one single article!) is used by mistake (I suppose so) and I’ve deleted it just as you have noticed that. Translation of user interface is obstructed due constant vandal attacks during last request, but, I believe that it would be done again in few days.
Montenegrin is not Serbian language! It is Serbian just much as Croatian and Bosnian. All of that (Montenegrin, Croatian, Bosnian, Serbian) are similar languages due same linguistic paternity, but all are different. You can not just steal Montenegrin identity by one single line of text. That is rude, I believe. Regards! --OutLook 02:01, 31 January 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Responce to OutLook 2: Eye. Sorry for that.
Where did I ever say that the Montenegrin language is Serbian language? Nowhere. And depends on two points of view. Linguistically speaking, yes Montenegrin is Serbian, just as Bosnian is Croatian and Serbian Croatian (all the same language). However politically speaking, it's a totally different language. Once again I don't see what made you think that I'm trying to "steal" anything at all. --PaxEquilibrium 14:19, 31 January 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Comment: someone mentioned earlier that Serbian and Montenegrin share linguistic structures and rules, but Serbian is mostly in cyrillic-script and Montenegrin is in latin-script? Maybe use content converter (like Chinese Wikipedia for simplified and traditional chinese characters)? That would also solve the problem of people using different words. --Schroedi unsigned by 13:06, 14 February 2007.
Montenegrin uses both scripts. For the differences, I suggest you visit Wiki's own article on Montenegrin language. 13:54, 24 March 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Cyrillic is an element of Greater Serbdom. Montenegrins should completely abandon it, just like the Croats. Cyrillic is only a leftover of Greater Serb aggression on Montenegro.

I suggest that admins also bring the decision of trial-period for Montenegrin Wikipedia of say...three months? After which it will be joined into Croatian Wikipedia (and hopefully, Montenegro will join Croatia by then). --CroDome 19:35, 19 February 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]

There is no such thing and please, leave your GreaterCroatian aspiration outside meta. -- 21:35, 2 March 2007 (UTC) --BokicaK 21:37, 2 March 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I suggest going to Montenegro and meeting w:Jevrem Brković. Montenegro 05:47, 22 February 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]
You're insane. Montenegro would never leave from Serbia unless we'll al reform a unified Croatia. In fact, this is the best proof that all Montenegrins are reall Croats. --CroDome 15:05, 11 March 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]
No, actually you're insane for thinkng Montenegrins are really Croats. Saying Montenegrins are originally Serbs or Croats s pure propaganda. Montenegrins were the first ones to come to the Balkans. Yes, they are closely related to Serbs and Croats, but Montenegrins were under Serb influence once Duklja was under Serb control. The Serbs brainwashed the Montenegrins into thinking that they were Serbs! This influence (brainwashing) continued until the 20th century (for the Orthodox followers in Montenegro). The Muslims in Montenegro (or Bosniaks, however you choose to call them) weren't under that influence, lucky them. Montenegro 17:00, 11 March 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Of course it isn't propaganda. Montenegrins themselves were deceved for thosand years that they were Serbs. However, Montenegrins ARE Croats. "Montenegrins first came"? :D "Montenegrins" were never even mention before the Midle ages ended. As for first ons, I think yu never in yur life herd of Greks (they came before al Slays). Yu can find many sorces acros the world that write that Serbs came to Montenegro in the first half of the 7th centuri, but they're all a result of a masterfully-done GreaterSerbian propaganda. You see? Serbs brainwahsed you so good that you don't even remember yure a Croat. The Croat Muslims in Montenegro were too considered Serbs, ass; they to sufered under GreaterSerb propaganda (in only cases when they not considered Turks; anyway Sandzak wasnt even part of Montenegro back so why mention it?).
Serbian Greater propaganda dates far back into the past from the conquest of Duklja. Plus, Croatianness remained in Duklja much much after Serbia violently took it (it trully died only under genocidist Petar Njegos).
Youre a fool. Tell me this. Did yu now that Montenegro replaced its flag so that no one would think anymore that they're Serbs? Did yu now that they adopted croatian song Oj, svijetla majska zoro, instead of Serbian Onamo, onamo; or even Montenegran Ubavoj nam Crnoj Gori. Did yu now that Podgorica proclaimed President of Croatia Stjepan Mesic honorary citizen? Did yu now that Montenegro seeks much better relations with Croatia than with Serbia or Albania. Did yu know that Montenegro left Serbia, so that it could now join Croatia? Montenegrin Orthodox Church is a recreation of the Croatian Orthodox Church (perhaps it will return its old name too). Only problem is that Serbian langage still langage of Montenegro and that genocidist Serbian Orthodox Church still in power in Montenegro (I hope to change soon to Craotian language, but Montengrin if not Croatian immediately; Croatian later [once the national consciesness of the great Montenegrin Croats is revived]). Yur an idiot if yu think the current government of Montenegro (Democratic Socialists of Milo Djukanovic) isn't greatly working on the restoration of Croatianness of Montenegro. I just think that a part of population is problem (those that think that they're Serbs), and there might be war against them. --CroDome 17:14, 16 March 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Were Njegoš and king Nikola (w:Onamo, 'namo!) brainwashed, too? --BokicaK 09:52, 16 March 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Of course. --CroDome 17:14, 16 March 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]
CroDome, read very carefully, I shall write this only once: LOL! End of discussion. --BokicaK 20:10, 16 March 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]
CroDome, stop making a complete fool out of yourself. You are, as a matter of fact, true in some of the things you said. What DPS is doing is very similar to a dictatorship and I don't want Montenegro to be a dictatorship but a free, independent, sovereign state with religious and ethnic freedom. I do, in a way, agree with you about the Serbs problem and the little war that might happen between the Montenegrins and the Serbs in Montenegro. But, people can now consider themselves anything they want, which is what I want in Montenegro and not a war between any of its people. However, yes, Montenegrins were brainwashed into thinking they were Serbs (which they are not) but that doesn't make them Croats either. That is one reason why I believe Montenegrins were a seperate group of Slavs to first come to the Balkans. Oh, by the way, how is Oj, svijetla majska zoro a Croatian song in any way? And also, the Montenegrin Orthodox Church isn't a recreation of the Croatian Orthodox Church when the Montenegrin Orthodox Church was a church even before the thought of having a Croatian Orthodox Church and once abolished, it was finally established again 80 years later. Lastly, MONTENEGRO WILL NEVER JOIN CROATIA OR ANY OTHER NATION, WHATSOEVER!!! Oh, and don't you for one second think (or call) that i'm an idiot because I know well about Montenegro and what DPS is doing and etc. And yes, I do know about the flag change, the thing about an honarary citizen and about Montenegro seeking better relations with Croatia. Montenegro 01:56, 17 March 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]
DPS isn't dictatorship. It amases almost as much as suport as the others. This is the best proof that the proCroat view in Montenegro is strongest. I think yu lie to me. I think yure just another Montenegrin (if yure Montenegran atal) thinking he's a Serb, proSerbian view and posing as an "independent" Montenegran.
Yu dont understand. Why is such case only with Montenegro? Why werent Croats (except Ivo Andric) brainwashed by Serbs elsewher? Because Montenegro is THE ONLY PLACE WHERE CROATS WERE BRAINWASHED TO BECOME SERBS. That doesnt make them Croats, but Montenegrins ARE Croats, just as theres many proof in it.
Oj, svijetla majska zoro WAS WRITTEN IN ZAGREB by Montenegrins LEADER who says that HES CROAT AND THAT ALL MONTENEGRINS ARE CROATS and written in CROATIAN LANGAGE.
Montengrin Orthodox Church never existed before. It draws its origin from the Croatian Orthodox Church. Let me tell yu what hapened in 1993; Franjo Tudjman proposed the recreation of the Croatian Orthodox Church. And you know what hapaned later (he had to satisfy with Montenegrin, but I believe its a transition towards Croatian)? MONTENEGRIN ORTHODOX CHURCH WAS CREATED UNDER CROATIAN LEADER FRANJO TUDJMANS PROPOSAL AN FINANCED FROM CROATIA with the help of the Montenegrn oposition.
Some of the Montenegran proSerb oposition (still remains of GreaterSerbian propaganda) promises to renew the state union with Serbia. Plus, dont yu now that Montenegro WILL JOIN CROATIA and WILL JOIN 36 OTHER NATIONS OF EUROPEAN UNION. How culd yu predict futur? Yure not God. Who knows waht will hapen. However, just see how things are going. If they continue with this spead Montenegro will be just a simple territory of Croatia very soon and the greatest dream of my, the greatest dream of every Croat and of every Montenegrin wil come true. Long live Montenegro & Red Croatia. Yu know it too. --CroDome 10:46, 17 March 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Croatian Speaker Vladimir Seks after offical visit to Podgorica anounced that relations between two Croat states is improving by each day. At this pace soon Croatia and Montenegro he sayd will sign numerous treaties which will make them even more closer than Mont. and Serbia are today (the two will be separate only on paper). Seks said that however Montenegro must first brake some of its links with Serbia (economic, turist and Montenegrin citizens in Serbia) to step into its destiny (also, it'll have to remove Serbian from its constitution as official).
I think that after that happens, DPS will organize a referendum to make a State Union with Croatia, finishing integration on the last geopolitical level. Yay!!!! :) --CroDome 20:14, 19 March 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]

One more LOL. CroDome, I'll give You friendly advice: find a girlfriend. --BokicaK 20:56, 17 March 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I am NOT LEZBIAN. --CroDome 12:47, 18 March 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]
And who said you are? You are just an internet troll, a banned user who continue to make disruptive and inflammatory edits under new account. --BokicaK 18:15, 18 March 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I was NOT banned. A admin troll blocked me for one ONE MONTH because he HATES ME (and posibly alle Croats). --CroDome 20:03, 19 March 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]
No comment. :) --BokicaK 21:03, 19 March 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Admins, plase disregard this pointless discussion above. I would like to point out that in the preliminary version of the new Montenegrin Constitution Montenegrin language is official, possibly along with Serbian. If it were a same language, why would both of them be proposed official? Also, I would ask you to make your decision soon, since our request has remained pending for a while now. Cheers. Sideshow Bob 16:35, 18 March 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Sideshow Bob, can You list all differences between proposed Montenegrin and ijekavian Serbian? --BokicaK 17:54, 18 March 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  • Short infinitives - verbs ending in -t ans instead of Serbian -ti and -ći
        • Btw, Bob, why your compatriots use long infinitives and "Serbian" type of sentence building? Here are few examples: Mogao bih da ti objasnim instead of Mogao bih ti objasniti and Na kraju, evo, poslije vec 2 puta, jos jednom cu udovoljiti tvojoj dusebriznosti. [5] So, even You don’t speak "Montenegrin" language and it is good proof that Montenegrin doesn’t have basis among people.
  • Letters Ś, Ź and З, used exclusively in Montenegrin language. Ś is frequently used, while the other two are somewhat marginalized, but still used in certain words and expressions.
  • Distinctively different vocabulary
    • How much different vocabulary?
  • Hyper-iotations (gdje--> đe, tjerati--> ćerat)
  • Different sentence building in some cases. For example, in Serbian language I have to work would be (Ja) moram da radim., while Montenegro uses the form with infinitive, as in Romance languages; in this case, the translation would be (Ja) moram radit. or Moram rabotat. (example of different vocab.)
    • This is not difference. Serbian uses same sentence construction.
  • Other than jat sound, some differently built words, such as sjutra/ śutra instead of sutra or nijesam for nisam, što instead of šta etc.

I don't have much time right now, so this was written in hurry, so feel free to add more things if necessary. Sideshow Bob 23:57, 18 March 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Bobe, hrvatsko-crnogorski sine; svaka cast! :) Protjerat cemo poslijednje cetnistvo iz Crne Gore zajedno! --CroDome 20:03, 19 March 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]

CroDome, ako dosada nisi shvatio da im odmažeš, nikada nećeš. --BokicaK 21:03, 19 March 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Bob, those are all that which they are: Proposals. We cannot be sure if they will be adopted. I'll be damned if the majority of the 140,000 Montenegrin-language speakers even uses the three proposed characters. And as for "Nijesam" - in what context are you considering it not a Serbian word (theoretically, it's a grammatical Serbian iekavian word and was oh-so-much used throughout the history). But if you are referring to the present situation, I advice you to pay a visit to East Herzegovina to hear the word there too (most Serbian-language speakers) for example even today. Such an example applies to most of the (other) words.
Infinitive - heh, the Serbian language uses both. I myself almost always use the infinitive. Plus, of the many times that I was in Montenegro, I could hardly hear that the Montenegrin language uses solely the infinitive; it uses the other version too (it's neither exclusively Montenegrin nor exclusively Serbian, so it shouldn't be mentioned). So far I haven't seen the (proposed) Montenegrin language grammer which claims that... --PaxEquilibrium 00:52, 19 March 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]

And btw, didn't ITAM, organization which seek establishing of Montenegrin wikipedia, call for Montenegrin independence on it's web page? --BokicaK 21:03, 19 March 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]

No ITAM (IT Association of Montenegro) has called for independence of knowledge and has called members of Wikimedia Foundation to do same. It is interesting how some "people" use they freedom to spread lies just to support their little interest, while people of Montenegro are trying to make tomorrow. That will be burden for their soul. This hole discussion is full of false arguments and misleading informations which on former request made a victory, but time is cure for many things. I will join this discussion shortly with my study on this topic. --Ego and his own 10:15, 20 March 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]
LOL; how's a tiny internet project going to jeopardize the normal lines of our everyday life in reality? :D --PaxEquilibrium 15:31, 20 March 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Very good question Pax,Like you I would also like to see answer to your question from people who oppose this request.--Ego and his own 22:50, 20 March 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]
First of all, Ego and his own, I asked is it truth, I didn’t “spread lies”. Second, a user asked You did ITAM call for Montenegrin independence, but You didn’t deny, You just switched the subject.[6] Third, Wikipedia is not state or national project, so it can't belong to people of neither Montenegro nor anybodies. And finally, You should learn some manners. --BokicaK 20:45, 21 March 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Bokice I told you that some people spread lies, you should learn English better, and beside that you should check information before you spread them. --Ego and his own 03:16, 22 March 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I must say that I am greatly disappointed by the extreme balloting that took place. For example, Ego and his own wrote here: ..From the number of votes it depends if Montenegro will gain its own version of Wikipedia.. ..Register and vote support (title: Invitation to voting for the Montenegrin wikipedia)

To the below he created images with red arrows directly showing where to click to register and vote. The expressing that foundation of a Montenegrin Wikipedia is a national interest. Ego and his own, this is not a vote.

But what came to me as a much greater shock is that I discovered that the Montenegrin government under direct advice from "Lord" Milo Djukanovic called the nation to vote for a Montenegrin Wikipedia (several officials of the ruling Democratic Party of Socialists of Montenegro) on the previous Montenegrin Wikipedia request.

I also just discovered that Montenegrocafe is not the only forum used to spread internet requests (propaganda?) to assemble the Montenegrin wikipedia.

Besides this, the "conspiracy" appears to be far bigger than I originally thought. --PaxEquilibrium 22:26, 21 March 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Pax you should really check dates, as you look very provocative and misleading. Your ignorance is not excuse for that. And if you make conclusions like this regarding this proposal they really lose any weight --Ego and his own 03:16, 22 March 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Yes, I know; like I said, I was referring to the previous request (I did not discover that before just now). --PaxEquilibrium 17:11, 22 March 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Two main problems about founding a Montenegrin Wikipedia: 1) The language isn't yet quite created (though it's in a better position than the Zlatiborian language) 2) There is no one' who speaks the Montenegrin language, and as far as I know 5 speakers are needed. --PaxEquilibrium 22:26, 21 March 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]

See all those N letters next to the supporters' names on the top? It stands for native speaker, which means Montenegrin is their native language. It's as simple as that. Secondly, do you seriously think than Milo Djukanovic and Montenegrin Govt. have nothing more important to do or lobby for, but to support the struggle for Montenegrin Wikipedia, which is being carried out by so few people? Trust me, if some of them wanted this Wikipedia to be started so badly, this request would be flooded with newly registered people and their sockpuppets just casting votes. The language has existed for centuries now, developing its variety and distinction. And, since it's about to become official language in Montenegro, I don't see any reason against forming of this Wikipedia, or at least its test version. Sideshow Bob 23:56, 21 March 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Actually, English is the native language of many of them. :) Regardles, I have discovered that a many of them (us) actually speak Serbian language (one of them; Montenegro - other known as Olaf Eriksson) even speaks Croatian language rather. Some of the people barely even speak Serbo-Croat. (no insult needed; keep learning, folks!).
I will not speculate if it's true it came from Milo, but truth is (evidently) that DPS officials called for voting for a Montenegrin Wikipedia. It's not the people, but the news of establishment of a Montenegrin language's recognition on the internet that matters greatly to DPS I believe.
Actually, I was referring to the previous Wikipedia Montenegrin request, and AFAIK (see it) it was flooded with newly registered people and their sockpuppets just casting votes. :))) Around 30 votes were sockpuppets alone and of the 50 people whose votes counted, most were invited either through this way or by Ego and his own. So AFAIK it appears that Milo Djukanovic and the Montenegrin government have nothing more important that creating a Montenegrin Wikipedia to do, according to your logic. :))) No wonder why the country's facing many problems recently. :D
Just wait and THEN after that we'll establish it. And as for its test version - there already are, two (one failed and was closed, though). --PaxEquilibrium 02:01, 22 March 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Pax, I am failing to see your point? If I didn't see your honor and honesty in your words i could think that you are trying to discredit me or provoke me. See how it is easy to underestimate someone intentions. But not me, I could not miss your solid rock support to this request and fanatic determination in which you put all your heart and soul. Thank you for that. --Ego and his own 03:16, 22 March 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Members of subcommittee have knowledge about it, but to other people who read this and didnt see what happen on former request, you can read archive and you can check my talk page. --Ego and his own 03:28, 22 March 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Yeah... but it's happening again, and it's not quite nice. --PaxEquilibrium 17:11, 22 March 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]

I'm sick tired of what Serbs wer-are traing. They did this to Croatia, look at Vukovar and Dubrovnik and everywhere else, they all lost left; look at what they did to Kosovo they left and now are losing it. Just look at what they did to Bosnia alone!

You Serbs should learn that you lost Montenegro and stop fighting for it. You should also accept independence of Kosovo. The more you agresivly fight more yu will loose. Presevo? If yu keep it will again be lost to. What next if yu continue to fight against democracy and peece? Sandzak and Vojvodina probably!!!

Stop Serbian propaganda - give Montenegrans language! Stop Serbian Orthodox propaganda - it's Montenegrin Orthodox now - stop Serbians propaganda - stop fighting against a democratic Montenegro everywhere funding Serbs in Montenegro and destroying everything Montenegrin/Croat.

Unsigned post by CroDome

  • BokicaK, how dare you say that I don't even speak Montenegrin? I know you are reaching for low blows now that your opposition to this proposal is weak, and based solely on anti-propaganda and ideology, but try to fight arguments with arguments, not personal attacks. And if you are interested about my knowledge of MY NATIVE LANGUAGE, feel free to ask me anything in that language on my talk page. If you can speak it, that is. Sideshow Bob 19:13, 22 March 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Because it is truth, no matter how it is bitter for You. And who do You think You are to judge am I right or no? My last message to You wasn't personal attack, but your last post is. --BokicaK 20:06, 22 March 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]

People, relax. Bokica probably meant to say that you do not USE Montenegrin (but Serbian [or Serbo-Croat] rather); it's not about if you know it or not.

Montenegrin language edit

And now it's test-time. :) Anyone who knows well Montenegrin; please translate for me (to English) the following words: vjedogonja, zabobonjiti, mrcina, kljusa, čamati, jedogonja, toržestvo, marač, bunište, premjena, predika, odiva, jejina, luča, kavurin, vonja, brav, žrec, zublja, izba, kavaz.... duh, can't remember any right now; ;) If someone manages (within 24h, I don't want cheating by asking a professional linguist) translate these, I think I'll manage to remember some more. :))) --PaxEquilibrium 22:21, 22 March 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]

  • vjedogonja - vampire of some sort, a part of Slavic mythology/superstition
  • zabobonjiti - to yell, to cry out
  • mrcina - a corpse or a very lazy and inactive person (colloquially)
  • kljuse - an old, worn out horse (not a Montenegrin word)
  • čamati - i suppose you meant čamit, which means to languish, or to spend time in vain, inertly or hopelessly(it has various meanings)
  • jedogonja - see vjedogonja
  • toržestvo - torment, suffering
  • marač - the first day of March according to the old Julian calendar(14 March in Gregorian, I believe)
  • bunište - a dump, scrap
  • premjena - change (also promjena)
  • predika - a lecture, a lesson
  • odiva - maiden
  • jejina - owl
  • luča - light, luminance or a lamp
  • kavurin - this one sounds so familiar, but I can't remember the meaning right now... :)
  • vonjat - to smell bad, to stink (vonja means stench)
  • brav - sheep (also an archaic pejorative term)
  • žrec - wizard, sorcerer
  • zublja - torch
  • izba - it's hard to translate, it can be a cell, or sometimes a small house in bad shape...
  • kavaz - cage

Don't see the point of this, but here you go... It took me about 5 minutes, and imagine this, I didn't need a linguist :) I can help you out with dozens of words like these(even though some of those are not authentic Montenegrin words). Cheers. Sideshow Bob 23:24, 22 March 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Here are the errors:

  • (V)jedogonja is not a vampire (in Montenegrin, it is in other Slavic languages); it literally means "Witch-chaser". It's a man from whom a ghost comes out while he sleeps. The ghosts would then go to the mountains and fight between each other.
  • Sorry, I didn't mean "mrcina" I meant "mrcino".
  • kljusa means something else domestically in Montenegrin... I'll give you a hint - you're close :)))
  • čamati means to weaken, to die
  • no, toržestvo means victory
  • yeah, but marač in general refers simply to March more often
  • predika also means more often something else (very close here too)
  • odiva could be also referred to "maid", but in domestic Montenegrin it also means something else more precise (you're not close on this one)
  • luča is Ray/Beam too (more precisely)...
  • kavurin or kaurin means infidel
  • brav could be referred to sheep, but actually it more often meant "goat"
  • žrec is pagan/infidel priest
  • zublja - could you be more precise (domestically Montenegrin)?
  • izba - actually, it's room :)))
  • kavaz - nope; it was the name of the Turkish pasha's closest bodyguards; it thus came to present day's meaning of Milo Djukanovic's close men. :)

Well, you got some of 'em, I think you've showed some knowledge there. You deserve a C+ :)

The purpose was to lighten the mood. It's getting darker and darker in 'ere. Cheers :D --PaxEquilibrium 00:11, 23 March 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]

First, most of those terms are archaic or of unclear meaning, so they can be interpreted differently, so since I am not a mind reader, I obviously cannot guess which meaning you had in mind. Anyway,some remarks:

  • Odiva is a maiden, not maid. There is a huge difference between the two.
  • kavaz is a Turkish word, and has nothing to do with Montenegrin language]
  • izba is not any room... For example Petar II Petrović Njegoš wrote "Luča Mikrokozma" in izba, feeding only on bread and water. It can also be ostava or šupa, even štala.
  • that is the only use of predika I'm familiar with... And also, it's more oftenly used as pridika
  • I've never heard of torzestvo meaning victory, but I'll trust you on that one... :)

I have some words for you, but don't want to go too offtopic here... ;)

  • And one more thing, I don't want to lighten up the mood, I want to get this over with and get the answer - YES or NO. It's only a matter of time when Montenegrin wikipedia will be started, and I don't see the point in prolonging this vacuum anymore. Sideshow Bob 00:43, 23 March 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I'd prefer that we keep up with the to-day time; we should present the actual situation, and not the future. [It is also to my opinion that it's only a matter of time (though long as it may be) before the American language is re-introduced instead of English in USA.]
As for the time loss, there is always the Montenegrin test wiki - when/if the Montenegrin Wikipedia gets created, we could just copy all the articles to there (not a hard job [besides that, there aren't/won't be a lot of articles]). --PaxEquilibrium 23:15, 24 March 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Serbian on automatism edit

I remember someone mentioning people had to tick "other" and then write down "Montenegrin" in 2003 - but no such thing occurred. "Montenegrin" was a choice available just as Serbian, Albanian, Bosniac, Croatian and Romany. All others were... "others" ;). For example, in Rozaje the majority of the population declared their language "Bosniac language", but in Plav most spoke "Other" languages, because they all ticked "other" and wrote "Bosnian language", which is not recognized as Montenegro by a language. In all other municipalities Serbian is spoken majority except one - the Cetinje municipality, in which most speak the "Montenegrin language" (and not "other"). So, it was not on automatic move and no one was forced into it (AFAIK, the population was under pressure by the government to declare "Montenegrin" as their native language back then). :D --PaxEquilibrium 11:24, 5 April 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]

THE END edit

Once more you have shown us that political opinions are more important than facts we presented. Once again you have shown us how little you care for the truth. I would like to thank all the users who supported our proposal, but I realise that regardless of our future efforts these "people"(in Montenegro you have to be respected to be called a 'man') would continue with their policy of discrimination. I know that no Montenegrin will edit Serbian, Serbo-Croatian, or any other imposed version of Wikipedia( why do you think their articles regarding Montenegrin issues are so one-sided and filled with propaganda?). The only one losing here are you, I am only spared from a lot of work that was to be done on the Wikipedia we were fighting for. From now on, my only goal on Wikipedia will be improvement and protection(guess from who?) of Montenegro-related articles, because most of my fellow countrymen have left Wikipedia due to continuous Serb-based propaganda that is ubiquitious here. I don't care if anyone is insulted or disagrees with hereby written, because all I said was truth, and it always bothers someone. EVIVA MONTENEGRO!Sideshow Bob 03:03, 7 April 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]

By the way, All Montenegrin Wikipedians edit the Serbian Wikipedia. Only some diaspora Montenegrin Wikipedians (like yourself) edit solely the English Wikipedia. --PaxEquilibrium 11:27, 7 April 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I'm sorry that you disagree with the decision. You state that "their articles regarding Montenegrin issues are so one-sided and filled with propaganda", and that is precisely the problem the closing comment mentions. If a Montenegrin Wikipedia is created, articles about Montenegro on the Serbo-Croatian Wikipedia will continue to be biased. Similarly, articles about Serbia or other issues about which Montenegrin editors have strong opinions will be biased without the input of other Serbo-Croatian editors.
This is the problem of 'providing information from individual political communities', as stated in the closing comment. On the other hand, collaborating in a linguistically unified Wikipedia, the opinions of all editors balance out so that articles are much more balanced and neutral. —{admin} Pathoschild 03:04:41, 07 April 2007 (UTC)
Pax, I live in Montenegro, and my visa for the US is 1 year visiting one, so I don't classify as diaspora, since I am one of the very few Montenegrin editors who actually live in Montenegro. Anyway, let's not get personal here.
Montenegrin speakers are not a political, but a linguistic community. And rejecting our proposal only days before Montenegrin language is to be accepted(along with Serbian) as an official in the Montenegrin Constitution does not make much sense to me. Your argument of balancing out the articles is quite absurd if you see that Serbian, Croatian, even Bosnian(the language created in 1995 by a treaty) and Serbo-Croatian(which is pretty much extinct by now) have their own versions of Wikipedia, but only Montenegrin, which has much more unique characteristics than the previous two, keeps getting rejected. I can edit the Serbian wikipedia(since I have been forced to write in Serbian throughout my schooling), but I don't want to fight a battle I can not win, trying to correct the article that will be reverted in the matter of minutes, because someone can't face the truth...
You are talking about linguistically unified Wikipedia, while you are having 4 Wikis running on different variations of the same language( while discarding the fifth one). Is it just me or that's just a little bit hypocritical? Sideshow Bob 15:55, 7 April 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]
Please read the closing comment, which states that "Although other Serbo-Croatian languages have their own wikis, these were created before the existence of the language subcommittee and it is likely that no new projects will be created in these languages." —{admin} Pathoschild 20:04:21, 07 April 2007 (UTC)
And that makes a difference how??? You know what, there is no need to discuss this any further, since you have made your decision, and nothing I say is going to change it. Cheers... Sideshow Bob 22:04, 7 April 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]
I don't understand - you're saying that the speakers of the Montenegrin language are not a political, but a linguistic community - and yet You call Serbo-Croatian extinct? Something's not right over there (self-contradicting). S-C will only be extinct when Bosnian, Croatian and Serbian (and all of their varieties however they're called "Montenegrin, Bunyev, Zlatiborian,...").
Tell me, how have You been forced to write Serbian throughout Your schooling?
I think You misunderstood the very point of Wikipedia - You're fighting. The whole problem lies there. --PaxEquilibrium 16:39, 9 April 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]
P.S. One more thing - the difference is Bosnian, Croatian and Serbian are all fully-standardized firm and strong national languages (unlike Montenegrin or Bunyev) and that they are official and regulated (unlike Montenegrin or Bunyev). --PaxEquilibrium 16:46, 9 April 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Serbian, Croatian and Bosniak (they call it Bosnian) languages are separate languages. But Wikipedia in serbocroatian would never have existed if there was a Language subcommittee. --Milant Talk 08:47, 17 April 2007 (UTC)Reply[reply]

Pax that is because the Montenegrins haven't organized a dictionary or anything of the sort yet, but considering all the differences in grammar, vocabulary and pronounciation/accent in the Montenegrin dialect(soon to be language), Montenegrin is easily more distant from all the yugoslav languages, hell bosnian is literally the same as Serbian besides a little vocabulary.

All serbs that are clearly out-right rejecting the Montenegrin language are full of yourselves, and need to learn to be more tolerant to other peoples. By the way, the census since 2003 regarding speakers of Montenegrin language has drastically changed by today, I can guarantee this, seeing I talked to relatives living there, and the first thing they asked me was if my little brother speaks Montenegrin (jel on zbori crnogorski?)