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Requests for new languages/Wikipedia Gheg

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Gheg Wikipedia

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submitted verification final decision

 

This language has been verified as eligible.
The language is eligible for a project, which means that the subdomain can be created once there is an active community and a localized interface, as described in the language proposal policy. You can discuss the creation of this language project on this page.

Once the criteria are met, the language committee can proceed with the approval and will verify the test project content with a reliable neutral source, such as a professor or expert.

If you think the criteria are met, but the project is still waiting for approval, feel free to notify the committee and ask them to consider its approval.

  • The community needs to develop an active test project; it must remain active until approval (automated statistics, recent changes). It is generally considered active if the analysis lists at least three active, not-grayed-out editors listed in the sections for the previous few months.
  • The community needs to complete required MediaWiki interface translations in that language (about localization, translatewiki, check completion).
  • The community needs to discuss and complete the settings table below:
What Value Example / Explanation
Proposal
Language code aln (SIL, Glottolog) A valid ISO 639-1 or 639-3 language code, like "fr", "de", "nso", ...
Language name Gheg Language name in English
Language name Gegnishtja Language name in your language. This will appear in the language list on Special:Preferences, in the interwiki sidebar on other wikis, ...
Language Wikidata item Q181037 - item has currently the following values: Item about the language at Wikidata. It would normally include the Wikimedia language code, name of the language, etc. Please complete at Wikidata if needed.
Directionality LTR Is the language written from left to right (LTR) or from right to left (RTL)?
Links Wikipedian Users who are native speakers of Gheg: Dardan Prishtina, Sintonak.X, User:Kedadi, User:Getoar, User:Cradel, User:Kosovar2, Bresta, User:Donikanuhiu, Ammartivari, TheeDardanian,

Berishasinan, || Links to previous requests, or references to external websites or documents.

Site URL aln.wikipedia.org langcode.wikiproject.org

Settings
Project name "Wikipedia" in your language
Project namespace usually the same as the project name
Project talk namespace "Wikipedia talk" (the discussion namespace of the project namespace)
Enable uploads no Default is "no". Preferably, files should be uploaded to Commons.
If you want, you can enable local file uploading, either by any user ("yes") or by administrators only ("admin").
Notes: (1) This setting can be changed afterwards. The setting can only be "yes" or "admin" at approval if the test creates an Exemption Doctrine Policy (EDP) first. (2) Files on Commons can be used on all Wikis. (3) Uploading fair-use images is not allowed on Commons (more info). (4) Localisation to your language may be insufficient on Commons.
Optional settings
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Additional namespaces For example, a Wikisource would need "Page", "Page talk", "Index", "Index talk", "Author", "Author talk".
Additional settings Anything else that should be set
Once settings are finalized, a committee member will submit a Phabricator task requesting creation of the wiki. (This will include everything automatically, except the additional namespaces/settings.) After the task is created, it should be linked to in a comment under "final decision" above.

Proposal

Gheg is spoken today by an around 2.8 million people (quoted from Omniglot) in Kosovo, Northern Albania, parts of Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, Montenegro and in Serbia

Discussion

Arguments in favour

The Literary Standard Argument Yes, there is a page on Albanian Official Language, but what we should understand is the difference between an Official Standard, used by administration, schools, and national media and the Literary Standard. Gheg literary standard began in 1555 and continues today. There are, probably, 100 authors that publish in gheg today. Nobody in Albania opposes the fact that for the last 200 years albanians have written in two literary standards (Today's Official Language began to be written 200 years ago as Tosk Literary Standard). Since gheg people have written in their literary standard for the last 455 years, I think it is reasonable that they continue to develop their standard. Wikipedia is a good place for that.

The Language Preservation Argument

The Language Preservation Argument The official Language has wiped out a few gheg structures and features, which gheg people continue to use them today. Remember that those who say that gheg is confined to Kosovo, do not know that 70% of Albanian population speaks gheg today. Here are a few things that this page can help preserve

1) five nasal sounds, a, e, i, u, y, that the official language has eliminated 2) the second future tense. In english we say "I am going to go". In gheg we say "Un kam me shkue". The official language refuses to accept this structure, but 70% of albanians use it every day. And we know that 'I'm going to go' is different from 'I will go'. Well, so it is in Gheg. 3) the Infinitive. English language creates its subjunctive mood by using its infinitive, for example 'to be or not to be'. Gheg language uses its infinitive to form its subjunctive mood too, 'me qen a mos me qen'. But the official standard refuses to accept it. However, 70% albanians use it every day. 4) In addition to the subjunctive mood, the infinitive of Gheg is used also in conditional moods.


The Official vs. People Argument

I have always sought wikipedia because it provides with multiple views -- in addition to the standard, official ones. Those who say that there is an albanian language page are saying, 'There is only one Albanian Language -- the one accepted by the government'. But that excludes the language of 70% of Albanians

Finally, if we had a wikipedia before 1945, the debate would be reversed because at that time it was Gheg language that was the Standard and Tosk was the dialect -- today it is the opposite. So the question is then, would those who oppose having a gheg page today be opposing having a tosk page tomorrow -- reversals might happen again.


Two Recent Movies about Gheg Language

Some of the most prominient academics, linguists, writers, poets, and playwrights have spoken in two recent documentaries about the problem that the Official Standard have created by Eliminating Gheg Language in 1972. Gheg language is a hot issue amongst the regular people as well as among the elite thinkers in albania and in Kosovo. Here are the movies, Two Documentaries About Gheg Language in Kosovo

Arguments against

  • Oppose Oppose There is an Albanian Wikipedia. Gheg is an Albanian dialect. Other countries have their own miscellaneous dialects, but have only ONE Wikipedia. ~~Aeternus
    Other countries have their own miscellaneous dialects, but also have MULTIPLE Wikipedias. Eg. (Dutch - West Flemish, Zeelandic, Limburgs, Frysk, Saterlandic; Italian - Sardinian, Corsican, Piedmontese, Venetian, Lobardian; French - Norman French, Arpitan, Walloon French, Occitan; Spanish - Castillian, Extremaduran, Aragonese, Asturian, Galician). Tell me if I am incorrect in any way.--Jose77 22:05, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    Limburgish doesn't belong in your opsomming. --OosWesThoesBes 18:39, 14 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    It has been corrected. --Jose77 22:16, 11 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Oppose I think any well written article would be welcomed at the Albanian Wikipedia no matter whether it's written in gheg or tosk. The Albanian Wikipedia is small enough that a fractioning of the community wouldn't be good for the current or the new one. Dori | Talk 22:24, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Oppose Like Dori. Better open sq.wikipedia for articles written in the Gheg language. Many Wikipediae allow for articles in multiple dialects (cf. Alemannic, Kurdish, etc.) --Thogo (talk) 13:25, 27 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Oppose I'm broadly opposed to splitting Wikipedias between mutually intelligible varieties, especially if these differences can be taken care of on a technological level. I haven't seen that at least the literary forms of these two varieties are mutually unintelligible, but I remain open to be convinced. If it does remain one Wikipedia it should be open to all written varieties of Albanian. - FrancisTyers 23:57, 19 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Strongly oppose - There is an Albanian wikipedia, and there you can write both in Gheg Albanian. It has no sense divide a language in his dialects. There is a wikpedia in Occitan (no in Gascon os Aranese or other dialect), a wikipedia in Asturian (no one in Leonese), etc. Jose77, Castillian is the same language as Spanish, and Asturian, Aragonese, etc, aren't spanish dialects. You don't undertand that? --Norrin strange 11:21, 26 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Actually in the albanian wikipedia you cant write articles in the gheg dialect , only in tosk --Cradel 20:53, 2 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You can not write even in tosk but only in standard Albanian. --Olsi (talk) 01:45, 17 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Oppose Albanian Wikipedia has a small community and this community includes users who speak gheg, tosk and standard Albanian. If we create a Wikipedia in Gheg, other users would create a Wikipedia in Tosk and imagine if we have three Wikipedias. We would have few and bad qulity articles in each Wikipedia. --Olsi (talk) 01:45, 17 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

General discussion

  • Our arguments in favour of the creation of a Gheg Wikipedia do not mean that we are against the Albanian Standard Literary language, which is mainly based on Tosk. We are just for making use of a living tongue as it is spoken by its native speakers, and for the advancement of the tongue itself. We have no political aims.--Dardan Prishtina 16:58, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I would be interested in how different Gheg and Tosk Albanian are. Are they intelligible to each other? --Thogo (talk) 18:17, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, they are intelligible on a level of educated people, but there are some differences. I'd be OK if a Gheg Wikipedia could not be set up... Just thought we could do some more work and it wasn't my initial idea whatsoever.--Dardan Prishtina 21:30, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
They're somewhat like British English and American English (or different dialects of English). You take someone who talks with a pretty thick Louisiana accent and he wouldn't be understood by a British lord (or likewise someone from the streets of Britain to someone in Idaho). But take two modern proses from each region and they're mostly understood everywhere. There are some words that may be new in usage to the two Albanian dialects, but written prose can be mostly understood across the two dialects. Some of the most well known Albanian literary works are in gheg and they're read and cherished by tosk speakers as part of the overall language. It's mostly a personal disturbance some people have similar to color and colour and more importantly the justified feeling that the gheg dialect is being repressed due to the accepted standard/official language being based mostly on tosk (even in areas inhabited by gheg speakers). A problem that I see is that's not a problem in British vs American English is that there is no standard rules for writing gheg, just some understood change in forms. Two different gheg writers could write the same words in different ways, and there wouldn't be a way to judge which one is correct (or rather they could both be correct) as far as I know. Since I am a tosk speaker I can't say for sure as I wouldn't be familiar with any potential gheg academic publishings on the language. Dori | Talk 22:40, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • We need to note that differences are greater than between British and American English. Take a look at the original Gheg text of an excerpt from the Kanun and its adoption to Standard Albanian (mainly Tosk Albanian):
GHEG ALBANIAN
Burri â' në detyrë:
a) me u përkujdesë per veshë e mathë e per gjitshka të lypet per me mbajtë jeten;
b) me ruejtë nderen e grues e mos me e lânë me u ankue per kurrnji nevojë.
STANDARD ALBANIAN
Burri është i detyruar:
a) të përkujdeset për veshmbathje e për gjithçka që lipset për ta mbajtur jetën;
b) ta ruajë nderin e gruas e mos ta lë të ankohet për asnjë nevojë.
I took this from the Albanian wikipedia article on Gheg Albanian[1].--Dardan Prishtina 17:16, 24 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Can you give lexical analyses (e.g. grammatical category and sub-categories) for those two snippets? Surface forms can often be deceptive. Also mention for each word that differs if the word is also present in the other dialect or likely to be understood. - FrancisTyers 23:51, 19 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Heres another example with the verb "working" : Tosk: duke punuar , gheg : tuj punue --Cradel 11:39, 29 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Localisation update

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