The following request for comments is closed. A project rename should require as a precondition a local consensus, a meta RfC is not the place to debate the wisdom of it. This RfC has been dead for almost a year, it is time to close it without prejudice. No consensus. --Abd (talk) 18:01, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
This is a proposal for closing and/or deleting a wiki hosted by the Wikimedia Foundation. It is subject to the current closing projects policy.
The proposal is currently open for discussion by the community.
- Type: 2 (non-routine proposal)
- Proposed outcome: RENAME
- Proposed action regarding the content: should be renamed/moved to kmr.wikipedia
- Notice on the project: .
- Statistical analysis of the three wikis:
- Per ku.Special:LongPages and ku.Special:Statistics, ku.wiki only has 58 articles above the 20,000 byte threshold and 228 articles above the 10,000 byte threshold out of 16,530 content pages which translates to 0.35% and 1.38% respectively. In fact 500th largest article is merely 6,770 bytes. Detailed statistics: 
- Per ckb.Special:LongPages and ckb.Special:Statistics, ckb wiki only has 110 articles above the 20,000 byte threshold and 321 articles above the 10,000 byte threshold out of 4,603 content pages which translates to 2.39% and 6.97% respectively. In fact 500th largest article is merely 7,503 bytes. Detailed statistics: 
- Per diq.Special:LongPages and diq.Special:Statistics, diq wiki only has 37 articles above the 20,000 byte threshold and 98 articles above the 10,000 byte threshold out of 12,164 content pages which translates to 0.30% and 0.81% respectively. In fact 500th largest article is merely 4,390 bytes. Detailed statistics: 
Therefore I propose that ku.wikipedia be renamed to kmr.wikipedia. While this proposal is called a "Request for closure", it is intended to be a RENAME.
-- とある白い猫 chi? 17:45, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
- To LangCom: Please update bugzilla:30376 depending on the outcome of this thread. -- とある白い猫 chi? 08:43, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
- Informed Group(s): (Which chapters, wiki projects, and other community groups have been informed, if any.)
- Clarification on what this proposal hopes to achieve:
- rename of ku.wikipedia to kmr.wikipedia
- maybe re-label the interwiki text to Kurdî (Kurmancî) to specify the dialect of the wiki.
edit point 1Edit
- Does this really need discussion and input? FWIW: support, just do it. Seb az86556 23:00, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
- Renames should not be done through the closing projects process. There is no formal process, but I would say, submit a bug report (I can do it if you want), and I will inform the language committee. Note that there are several wikis waiting to be renamed, so it can take some time (as in: years) until it is actually done. SPQRobin (talk) 23:54, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
- I'll be bold and add it to the list then. Indeed, a process for rename currently doesn't exist and that may need to change perhaps. At least a page with criteria or procedure is needed I think. -- とある白い猫 chi? 06:31, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
- As a regular editor and a Burocrate/Admin in the ku.Wikipedia I strongly OPPOSE this proposal of renaming of ku.Wikipedia. The proposer above has no connection to any of the Wikipedias in Kurdish or is an editor in any of the two existing Kurdish Wikipedias (ku. or ckb.). No message in Kurdish has been sent to the ku.Wikipedia. It's a tricky way to rename the Kurdish standard language into different dialects like Kurmanji (North), Soranî (Central). In Turkey Kurds were renamed "Mountain Turks", after the Turkish republic was created in 1923. Kurds have since 1930's worked for a standard language in Latin script (in Soviet Armenia, Syria, Turkey, Iraq, Europe...), and this is the language, not the dialect, which is used in ku.Wikipedia! Imagine if we rename the German Wiki for any other German dialect Wikipedia. I support the use of both ku.Wikipedia and ckb.Wikipedia as it is today; both variaties are considered to be Kurdish (Kurdî; NOT Kurmanji or Sorani), one in Latin script and the other in Arabic script. Further, the ku.Wikipedia has an option: you can read both in Latin or Arabic script and is embracing all regions of Kurdistan. Articles in various dialects in Latin script are found in ku.Wikipedia. Comparing to what we have in the Wikipedia Project the situation is closest to what happens to Norwegian, Norsk (bokmal) and Norsk (nynorsk). Further to this, all institutes and academies using Kurdish, like Enstîtuya Kurdî ya Amed, in Diyarbekir are Kurdish not Kurmanji. Wikipedia for me is freedom, and democracy and respect. And ku.Wikipedia does not want to change it's name. --MikaelF 06:57, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
- I see... apparently, it does meet opposition. Seb az86556 07:01, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
- What? It is on the talk page of the Main page that you have responded to! There is no community portal of any kind for me to post anything. Anyways bugzilla:30376 proposal is on hold.
- First off, Wikipedia is NOT a democracy. I am baffled how renaming the wiki would be in violation of anyone freedom nor how it would be disrespectful. Same content would be available and new users would know what dialect they should expect. On the contrary, I do believe it is disrespectful to the Sorani dialect if we keep things as is when ku.wikipedia is the higher macrolanguage. Currently a new user would only be confused when he or she starts editing or even reading ku.wikipedia. Furthermore ku.wikipedia recently mass deleted all Sorani (Arabic script) redirects and articles. This problem is demonstrated more on how Zazaki wiki and Sorani wiki have formed. If it isn't Kurmanji dialect, what dialect is used in Kurdish wikipedia then? There is no such thing as a "Kurdish dialect" of Kurdish as that wouldn't be a dialect as again that is the macrolanguage.
- German wikipedia is the second largest wiki and dialects are mutually intelligible which is unlike Kurdish which IS NOT mutually intelligible among its dialects at least according to my first Google hit which seems to be based on a CBS documentary. So I am guessing this is common knowledge. Even the writing is different as you just explained us. I do not see how the issue in Norwegean wikis is even related where the two subdivisions are mutually intelligible when spoken (I believe).
- I don't know what "regions" of "Kurdistan" ku.wiki embraces but wikipedia is a free encyclopedia that embraces ALL human knowledge. Wikis are intended to cover human knowledge as a whole and not based on someones views or arbitrary borders of any kind. I do not see how there is a "standard language" when not even the writing is standardized.
- Forgive me but 2-3 editors is not much of a community and I have reservations if the views of a few editors is an accurate representation of the people who use the language itself. I am not going to comment about quality issues of the wiki here as it isn't relevant. Let's just say I have doubts if all the editors of the wiki are in full grasp of the mission of wikipedia as also evident in the discussion here so far. Also why does that wiki have 3 bureaucrats? There are a total of 7 admins of which one is named "Webmaster".
- -- とある白い猫 chi? 08:19, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
- Well, well, hold on... I think there is some misunderstanding, and no-one has to go all haywire and emotional here. The simple explanation is that wikipedia goes by ISO codes, and they're not "invented" or determined by wikipedia. Mikael, you will probably have to take it up with the ISO committee (or whatever it is).
- On the other hand, Mikael probably has a point here, but that can be solved — the issue seems to be what the interwiki links will show, not what the ISO code is. Maybe the interwiki links should be Kurdî (Kurmancî) or something like that. Seb az86556 11:46, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
- That would be more than fine with me. It however is the step after rename? -- とある白い猫 chi? 12:17, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
- I'd assume that needs to take place simultaneously. Not sure though. Seb az86556 13:21, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
- It could very well be the same commit. I doubt devs would make such a change without the rename decision first though. -- とある白い猫 chi? 15:51, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
- I first thought of not replying to the proposer of this renaming of ku.Wikipedia. But as everything is being recorded to future generations I would like to add something, without getting involved in a discussion where the Kurdish language is put through the mill. The proposer of this change has been both bold and patronizing, and is not the adequate person to make this decision.
- There must to be a Kurdish macrolanguage Wikipedia, which at present is ku.Wikipedia, which represents a standard Kurdish (Kurdî) in Latin script which represents 80% of the Kurds. This language is based on Jeladet Bedirkhan and Roger Lescot (1991) Grammaire Kurde, Jean Maisonneuve, Paris ISBN 2-7200-1083-9; Samî Tan (2005) Rêziman û rastnivîsa zaravayê kurmancî. Istanbul Kurdish Institute ISBN 975-6282-35-5 and Azad Zal (2009) Zimanê kurdî, Diyarbekir Kurdish Institute ISBN 978-605-60745-2-3; and the main normative dictionaries recopilated by Zana Farqînî (2004), Ferhenga kurdî-tirkî, Istanbul Kurdish Institute ISBN 975-6282-18-5; and Zana Farqînî (2000), Türkçe-Kürtçe Sözlük, Istanbul Kurdish Institute ISBN 975-97101-2-9. Most literate Kurds use these as a common reference for Kurdish in Latin script.
- If the proposer knew Kurdish, he would notice that our Village pump is called Dîwan. Editors and users in ku.Wikipedia are generally respectful and most decisions are taken after a discussion and by common consent. The proposer also noticed that the articles by Sorani users were "mass deleted". I have been in the Kurdish Wikipedia daily since 2007; the articles in Arabic script were transferred to the new ckb.Wikipedia, logically by themseves. The contact with ckb.Wikipedia has always been friendly. That Kurdish dialects are not mutually intelligible is a myth, which slowly is vanishing as Kurds start to be literate and watch TV in different varieties of Kurdish. Wikipedia is also good help.
- As to the proposer's comment about the smallness of ku.Wikipedia, its few editors, quality issues, etc; these are issues each project has to fight with, amend and improve. What these "smaller" projects need is support, help to improve and walk on their own legs. Not by patronizing, as you have done this time!
- Finally, I ask for assistance please how we can stop this bugzilla:30376 proposal, until this is decided on. Thank you Seb az86556 for your opinion, ahéhee'.. T'áá'ákódí! --MikaelF 12:14, 16 August 2011 (UTC)
- I am sorry but I do not see how my comment is patronizing. I have worked with ku.wikipedia for quite some time. For instance I had temporary admin access to delete copyrighted images. Since then scores more have been added. This is a serious legal issue that the Foundatin had been very clear about. Ku.wiki had been neglecting this though this is a problem commonly observed with smaller wikis it is particularly distressing with ku.wiki. But never the less such concerns are irrelevant to this request and I do not want to divulge in them further here.
- The mentioned page (Dîwan) has a history of very few edits. Seemingly the concept of a village pump was recently introduced in late June of 2011. While this is a step in the correct direction claiming that decisions are made through it is far fetched. With only 4 links (one on the main page and its sub template), I seriously doubt even the existing discussion so far is commonly referenced on wiki at all.
- As stated, the request isn't the deletion of the wiki but a rename of it to its proper ISO code. It would still represent the same percentage of the Kurdish dialect but we would avoid confusing the people who use other dialects. I do not believe your 80% statistic is factual and even if it did the 20% remainder is far too large of a percentage for us to treat as insignificant. Also you claim Kurmanji as the "standard Kurdish" which I do not see how. What makes Kurmanji superior to Sorani? I do not know which editorial conflicts lead to the split of Sorani wikipedia but, I quote here one comment:
||Even though both "Kurmanj" and "Sorani" are subgroups (accent) of Kurdish language, they can cause of misunderstanding and misinterpretation for people who speak the language with these accents to each other. This can happen in different situations. For instance during regular conversations, or reading/understanding complex and professional contents.In general, "Kurmanj" and "Sorani" are not useful to each other since misinterpretation is so high while they are used in different places. --Marmzok 11 April 2009
- I do not understand why you linked to various texts with ISBN numbers. Kurmanji is still the other subgroup. The wiki's content entirely represents the subgroup (kmr ISO code) and not the main group (ku ISO code) which would need to include the other sub groups (ckb, diq ISO codes).
- As I stated, the bugzilla request is on hold as I posted there on the first sign of disagreement here. And trust me it would have easily taken months for such a rename to happen even if there was a complete agreement here.
- -- とある白い猫 chi? 12:59, 18 August 2011 (UTC)
- Recapitulating, there must be a Kurdish macro language Wikipedia, with a ku ISO code, which is ku.Wikipedia in Latin script at the moment. No Kurdish dialect is superior to any other, literacy will eventually bring dialects closer, and thinking positively, it will bring a common alphabet to the Kurdish language. However, the majority of the Kurds are citizens in states where assimilation or prohibition still is being used against the Kurdish identity and the language. Everyone with a genuine interest in the Kurdish language is aware of this. Finally, there is no conflict between ku.Wikipedia using Latin script or ckb.Wikipedia using Arabic script, saying the contrary is pure invention. --MikaelF 15:39, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
- Mikael, we generally have Wikipedias in languages, not macrolanguages. There are a handful of exceptions - due to the position of Modern Standard Arabic, ar.wp is given only to that variety rather than regional Arabic varieties; same goes for zh.wp. However, it does not seem to be the case with Kurmanji (which you keep referring to for some reason as standard Kurdish?); there is lots of content on the Internet in Sorani, which is spoken by approximately 1/4 of all Kurds it seems. Let's the get opinion of some Sorani speakers here. --Node ue 21:56, 21 August 2011 (UTC)
Oppose - many reasons are listed above. However, the emphasis on giving dialects, and not languages, their own Wiki and then having it all based on such a thing is really problematic. The language wikis were never intended to be given to more than languages or entities that have shown beyond a doubt a major need and a lot of activity that would warrant it. Ottava Rima (talk) 14:10, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
- The wiki represents only one dialect of the language. Other(s) broke away out of it. Calling a dialect after a macro language is problematic in many ways. The dialects of Kurdish as quoted above are not mutually intelligible. This would not create a new wiki, just rename the existing one. -- とある白い猫 chi? 22:21, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
- Dialects are the same language. If they want to chase out those of other dialects, then you can deal with that on its own. The English Wiki has both British and American English, along with secondary aspects of dialects. This is true for many others. We should not be adding expensive and meaningless additions to the WMF to appease a tiny minority that wants to satisfy their political views. Ottava Rima (talk) 22:42, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
- Support - After more research, they aren't "dialects" but their own languages with their own scripts. Kurdish is more of a political identity than anything that can be associated with linguistics, so the use is misleading. Ottava Rima (talk) 23:00, 23 August 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose If the proposal had been done by somebody from any of the existing Kurdish Wikis, I might have reacted differently. But frankly I'd be surprised, because there isn't any conflict between the actual ku.Wiki or the ckb.Wiki. In the sidebar the ku.Wiki defines itself as Kurdî and the ckb as Kurdî, but in Arabic script. No one has been chased out, been massdeleted, or misunderstood (because literate Kurds can understand eachother, have interest in eachothers dialects, take and mix vocabulary from eachother, etc.) As a user of Kurdish, I don't feel comfortable with this proposal, and so is the general opinion of people I have commented this to, and I suggest Wikimedia/the proposer to contact the Kurdish Institute in Diyarbekir for its opinion: firstname.lastname@example.org. Before making a decision on this issue, more Kurdish speakers' opinion must be heard here. I used the term macro language above, because the proposer used it as a ISO code reference. Thanks for your opinions. --MikaelF 10:34, 24 August 2011 (UTC)
- "ku.Wiki defines itself as Kurdî"... And ckb.wiki does not? Is Kurmanji not a Kurdish dialect? kmr.wiki can define itself as Kurdi but in Latin script. And no, regardless of what ckb defines itself to be, it is supposed to be specifically the Sorani dialect of Kurdish. The iso code should be representing the content of the wiki they belong to which is just the Kurmanji dialect of Kurdish. If lang.com feels like talking to this hotmail address, they are welcome to do so. I really do not see the problem. -- とある白い猫 chi? 20:55, 29 August 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose - First of all I thank the respectful requester for such a seemingly precise awareness of what is going on every where in Wikipedia, but for this particular case I would like to share some extra clarifications which are indeed crucial to the request issued here. The notice stated above, all due respect, is incorrect. It just sorts Zazaki along with Kurmanji and Sorani as dialects of a single language, namely Kurdish, whilst the speech known as Zazaki (a.k.a Dimili, Dimbuli, Kirmanjki, Kirdki) is intrinsically a language by itself. Nonetheless it, Zazaki, is also spoken only by Kurdish people (Kurds have a unique situation in which there are at least three distinct languges exclusively spoken by the same people; by the way "Gorani" is the title of the other language spoken by the Kurdish people). But for the case of Kurmanji and Sorani I have to affirm that contrary to some non-scientific opinions they, plus Southern dialect (including Kelhuri, Leki, Feyli, Zengene, Gerrusi subdialects), make up a unique language which is spoken by the majority of Kurds (approximately 90%) and subsequently called "Kurdish Language" (while overlooking the two other languages, Zazaki and Gorani, which are spoken by the rest of the Kurdish populace, comprising nearly 10% of the total population). --Kak Language 05:49, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
Regarding to the ongoing discussion over here I firstly have to elucidate the situation a little bit. There is actually no Standard Kurdish Language at all! This lack is not only to be lamented in in terms of lingual aspect but also in dialectal dimensions. Since there are no certain standard forms for either of major dialects too! But as a matter of fact the issue of mutual comprehension is almost out of the question since Kurdish dialects are, scientifically, parts of a single body and thus resemble each other enough to allow their native speakers get themselves fluent in the other relative dialects. That is to say a Sorani speaking user, for instance, with zero Kurmanji knowledge can prepare themselves to understand Kurmanji in a considerable level only in a short period (there are a pretty large number of examples just amongst Wikipedia users). However, after all, articles within Kurdish Wikipedia might be written in the three main dialects and their various subdialects so that every one can communicate with the project and also get themselves ready to understand the other dialects much more convenient. I've been personally working on a severe standardization project since several years ago and if this work will fit in scientific criteria thus the aforesaid lack will fade away. But for now we still lack a standard language so devastatingly. This is why I have stopped contributing new entries in both Kurdi and Sorani versions of Wikipedia. But in fact it must be born in mind that "Wikipediya Kurdi" (Kurdish Wikipedia) has contributed much to the Kurdish speakers in general that it is absolutely "better" than "nothing". I really hate any ethnic conflicts, marginalization, or pessimism but as an Iranian (of both Kurdish and Azerbaijani origin) myself you can have my word that any "rename" in this case is read equal to "nothingness" both amongst Kurdish people and those whom Kurds regard as malignant ones. That is confining "Wikipediya Kurdi", in the present time, to a "dialect" (i.e. Kurmanji) serves no one but raises serious conflicts, which I do not mean to expatiate them here but they certainly would encompass a very diverse body of aspects, and I sincerely believe that the status quo must be maintained. A Kurdish Wikipedia is potentially capable of satisfying various Kurdish tastes in an atmosphere where we lack a standard/formal form of the language.
For the major theme of the issue, namely "Wikipediya Kurdi" appearing to be exclusively in Kurmanji dialect, I have to declare that I myself am a native speaker of Sorani dialect but also conversant with both Kurmanji and Southern dialects at the same time and I assure everybody that I, from now on, will resume my contributions to "Wikipediya Kurdi" in both Central (Sorani) and Southern dialects in order to let this Wikipedia version be inclusively "Kurdi" in practice. Until we attain a Standard Language under the aegis of the Omniscient. According to what is written above any "rename" is rationally unnecessary and I thereby enunciate my strong disapproval of this request.--Kak Language 05:49, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
edit point 2Edit
I have a question for the editors on ku: are all dialects currently permitted on ku. or only Kurmanji? In other words: what happens when someone creates an article in Sorani or Zazaki? And what happened to the articles written in Zazaki and Sorani after separate Wikipedias were set up for them? --Terfili 06:16, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
- Zazaki is, though historically spoken by ethnic Kurds, but scientifically a distinct language from what is generally known as Kurdish language. Then Zazaki is as such out of the question. But regarding to the articles written in other Kurdish dialects than Kurmanji, namely Sorani and Southern, there is absolutely no curb for them. However Sorani articles written in Arabic script were moved to the recently stablished Sorani Wikipedia. But there are already Sorani and Southern articles within Kurdish Wikipedia, written in Latin Kurdish script (a script which may be easily legible to the Kurdish population in general, as opposed to Arabic script which is pretty much hard to be lernt by the uninstructed).
- PS. The obvious misconception of Zazaki being a dialect of the so-called Kurdish language or refering to Sorani, based on some non-scientific opinions, as a language shows that there is a convincingly lack of knowledge, about Kurds and languges spoken by them, amongst some of the non-Kurdish users involved in the discussion over here. Such a request for redesignation of Kurdish Wikipedia is obviousy due to such an unawareness too (if one would ever ignore pessimistic persumptions about nationalistically biased motives ushering into such moves, particularly on the side of Pan-Turkish fanatics). --Kak Language 11:18, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
- Kak Language, are you a linguist? You have said several times now that Zazaki is "scientifically" a separate language, but that anyone calling Sorani a separate language is expressing a "non-scientific opinion". I am a linguist, and the most reliable sources about Kurdish languages indicate that Sorani is indeed a language, and this is a "scientific opinion" of scientists. Of course some Kurds will say they speak one language, but popular opinion and scientific opinion are not the same thing, please do not confuse them. --Node ue 13:04, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
- Good to have a linguist over here. No I am not academically a linguist but I have been intensely studying linguistics, with a particular focus on Kurdish and-generally Iranian languages, for a couple of years. Well, all due respect, to my ken the first and one of the most reliable sources on Kurdish language, so far, is David N. McKeznie's well known essay "The Origins of Kurdish". Whenever, therein, McKenzie talks about "Kurdish language" he means both Kurmanji and Sorani dialects, plus Southern Kurdish, and does not distinguish them as specific languages (while he does set Gorani and Zazaki apart from Kurdish, explicitly). I can, with regard to Iranian linguistics, tell you that all outstanding linguists from then-1961 on consider McKeznie's essay as kind of "clairvoyance" which all initiates stick to the ideas it gives, very devotedly. In this case I can mention Paul Ludwig, contributor of the "Kurdish language" entry within Iranica, he too does not consider Kurdish dialects as separate languages (however he predicts that there might be independent Sorani and Kurmanji languages in the future and in the lack of a standard Kurdish). And amongst well-known Iranian scholars I can make mention of most reliable of them, namely professor Hassan Rezai Baghbidi, who does not speculate main Kurdish dialects to be separate languages but-as opposed to McKenzie's uncertainty, also obviously includes Laki as a Southern Kurdish sub-dialect (Dialectology, Journal of the Iranian Academy of Persian Language and Literature, 2006-2007, Vol. 3, No. 1, 2). I can also discuss this stuff in details, on my own, since I have been working on standardization of Kurdish language and I am about to publish the results in the future, Deo volente. However I may tell that how much you are aware of Iranian linguistics but since I hate it most to be prejudiced, then I am cordially curious to know what are your aforesaid "most reliable sources" which linguistically confirm that Sorani is a single language? (I hope you will be going to provide something that has eluded me so far, and hopefully you are not the one who has confused things in practice)--Kak Language 06:20, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
- I'm aware that Zazaki is significantly different from Kurdish, I was asking because at the beginning of this page it says that Zazaki "has separated from ku.wikipedia on 5 January 2007" so I'm assuming that there was some Zazaki content on ku. to begin with.
- In my opinion every project should be free to determine the amount of variation and dialects it permits. As far as I can tell, Sorani-speakers are currently free to choose whether they wish to contribute on ckb.wikipedia in the Arabic script, or on ku. in the Latin script. If Kurmanji and other dialect users are willing to work together on one project, why should they be forced apart by a Meta-decree? --Terfili 12:34, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
- Yes I agree most heartedly. Specially when the raison d'etre of this request is ruled out since Kurdish Wikipedia actually contains articles in all Kurdish dialects (namely Northern or Kurmanji, Central or Sorani, and Southern dialects) and recieves a rather inclusive extent of contribution.--Kak Language 05:23, 6 September 2011 (UTC)
- What is the point of ckb wiki if ku.wiki will duplicate all content. I think people are missing the point on why we have separate wikis for different languages and dialects. I point out the discussion poised at Requests for new languages/Wikipedia Kurdish (Sorani). All of the reasons in support of the creation there could be used why such rename should happen here.
- I am curious as to how much non-Kurmanji and non-Sorani content exists on the wiki currently. What dialect is the interface?
- -- とある白い猫 chi? 04:50, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
- Nice question, but really an improper one. You could ask such a question only when there was a standard form for Kurdish language (which is not in existence at the present time). Sorani Wikipedia is merely in Sorani dialect of Kurdish language, whilest the Kurdish Wikipedia is to contain articles in all three main dialects. It also does not duplicate the the content since the contributors are not the same (for example I as a native Sorani Kurdish speaker do not cooperate in Sorani Wikipedia). By the way Sorani and Southern Kurdish articles in Kurdish Wikipdia are written in Latin script which (contrary to Sorani Wikipedia using Arabic script) as I have already mentioned is more convenient than Arabic script that is not legible to new generations in diaspora and Kurds of Turkey-that at least comprise more than half of total Kurdish speakers in the world. I am afraid but this is exactly you who misses the very point that Kurdish, though presently, has no standard form and until the stablishment of such a standard form Kurdish Wikipedia is to contain such an inclusive extent of entries as it does now. Because, after all, this is the way Kurdish language is. All you provide deserves not such a requst. However you may, potentially, arrange a request for a new Wikipedia in Kurmanji dialect of Kurdish language, if you are so insistently interested in and pedantic about Kurdsh affairs.
- And regarding to your curiosity I have to state that it is not up to you to ask for odds or percentages about Kurdish articles written in which sub-dialects (Erdellaní, Mukriyaní, Kelhurí, Feylí, Botaní, Shikakí, Herkí, Qerejdaxí, Behdínaní, etc). And, for your knowledge, they all can play transitional roles relatively. As far as Kurdish language, as well as its main dialects, lacks a "standard form" this is the situation with Kurdish language and the whole entire body of your issued request is out of the question.--Kak Language 06:30, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
- In other words based on what you are telling us, at a best case scenario a visitor to Ku.wiki would be merely confused by about a dozen different mutually unintelligible dialects given the language at the moment lacks a standard form. Indeed there is a problem much more serious than I had realized. Sorani dialect should of course be "unwelcome" on ku.wikipedia on the simple fact that there is a language edition for it. This IS the purpose why language editions are created, to separate content in a manner that is useful to the reader. Wikipedia's language editions are not created to serve any ethnicity and are instead to serve everyone speaking the dialect/language the wiki's scope covers.
- I will ask again: what percentage of ku.wikipedia is non-kurmanji. It is hardly a controversial question. I have checked article on people and places and from what I can tell the content is written in one dialect. For instance ku:George W. Bush or ku:Barack Obama or ku:Otto von Bismarck or even ku:Dewletên Yekbûyî yên Amerîkayê (USA) or ku:Bruksel (Brussels) are all in one dialect despite being fairly short. It doesn't seem like there is a mixture of dialects despite your claim. Could you list some non-kurmanji articles at least?
- -- とある白い猫 chi? 14:01, 10 September 2011 (UTC)
- In fact....
- Per ku.Special:LongPages and ku.Special:Statistics, ku.wiki only has 58 articles above the 20,000 byte threshold and 228 articles above the 10,000 byte threshold out of 16,530 content pages which translates to 0.35% and 1.38% respectively. In fact 500th largest article is merely 6,770 bytes. Detailed statistics: 
- Per ckb.Special:LongPages and ckb.Special:Statistics, ckb wiki only has 110 articles above the 20,000 byte threshold and 321 articles above the 10,000 byte threshold out of 4,603 content pages which translates to 2.39% and 6.97% respectively. In fact 500th largest article is merely 7,503 bytes. Detailed statistics: 
- Per diq.Special:LongPages and diq.Special:Statistics, diq wiki only has 37 articles above the 20,000 byte threshold and 98 articles above the 10,000 byte threshold out of 12,164 content pages which translates to 0.30% and 0.81% respectively. In fact 500th largest article is merely 4,390 bytes. Detailed statistics: 
- If we look at the three wikis we observe a pattern. As expected wikis have lots of short articles and fewer and fewer long ones. Ku. wiki is no larger than ckb wiki in terms of average article sizes, Ku.wiki is about the same size of diq wiki in terms of article count. I do not see any evidence that ku.wiki's content is any more than just the kurmanji dialect... -- とある白い猫 chi? 22:56, 10 September 2011 (UTC)
- This is, for your profoundly lack of knowledge in Kurdish, the best case ever for now. All Kurdish media broadcast in the same way as Kurdish Wikipedia currently functions (news, programs, and shows are presented in both Sorani and Kurmanji dialects and occasionally in Southern Kurdish). I really doubt it if you have still realized the situation thoroughly. Sorani dialect is by no means unwelcome and it should be of course your deemed incompetency in this issue to utter so. You read somewhere that somebody holds Kurmanji and Sorani are mutually incomprehensible and then come up with such a digressional point. It, for now, does not matter what edition Kurdish Wikipedia uses since Kurdish dialects are after all "dialects" of the same language. The expressions and words such as "bi xer hatin", "gifugo", "wene", etc. are common in all Kurdish dialects. By the way many internet users of Kurdish origin, specially Sorani speakers, can understand Kurmanji passages (and almost, vice versa). In this case we are exactly talking about a unique ethnicity speaking a speech of them which occasionally lacks a standard form in both lingual and dialectal aspects, but indeed is a language and deserves whatsoever a language should deserve.
- Regarding to your question, you can measure the content on your own if something from the inside urges you to be so interested in Kurdish Wikipedia. I see no need to discuss it any more due to your obviously undeniable unawareness in terms of Kurdish language. Because of time which matters a lot in this week to me, I will ask my colleagues to provide a list of some non-Kurmanji articles (however I have already made mention of it above but since you insist on your ignorance rather than considering the case meticulously I have to state that it is really hard to categorize some sub-dialects into any of major dialects, e.g. sub-dialect of Targewer Mergewer which is a transitional one between Kurmanji and Sorani or Erdellani which plays the same role between Sorani and Southern Kurdish).
- Your provided pattern is completely fallacious. You compare three linguistically different contents (Kurdish language, Sorani dialect of Kurdish language, and Zazaki language) statistically and then infer hastily that since the "numbers" are the same then Kurdish Wikipedia is written only in Kurmanji dialect and it will always be written in that dialect ever and despite the lack of a standard form of Kurdish language the Kurdish Wikipedia project should be shut down and renamed as "Kurmanji Wikipedia". I do not want to assume what are you seeking over here but all due respect such fallacious conclusions only make mock of the suggester.--Kak Language 07:17, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
- From what I understand it isn't duplicating content because ku. and ckb use different scripts. There might even be a lot of potential here for ku. and ckb. to import Sorani articles from each other while adapting the script and increasing the overall content on both projects in this matter. Furthermore, there are plenty of Wikipedia with often vastly different varieties used, and there are many in languages that don't even have a standardized form or even commonly accepted spelling rules. It's for the projects themselves to decide whether they want to allow one or multiple standards, not for outsiders here on Meta. And even if there isn't much non-Kurmanji content right now, so what? It's a Wikipedia, work in progress.--Terfili 21:12, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
- What do you expect the reader to do when visiting ku.wiki? They will have articles that they wont be able to read. Is the main page in Sorani? Kurmanji? Some other dialect? What do we expect the reader to do in this mess? For starters the usability issue needs to be addressed if we are going to have a soup of mutually unintelligible dialects within one wiki despite having board decisions to create new language editions for these dialects. Certainly there are wikis where multiple scripts co-exist for the same language dialect but never is it multiple unintelligable dialects. There are no projects that I am aware of where a breakaway separate wiki is created, content moved and them the main wiki still "accepting" the content that was moved off of it. It nullifies the point of sorani wikipedia. The request for sorani wiki clearly was for the entire dialect and not just Arabic script. I also am uncertain if any Sorani (in latin script or otherwise) remain on the wiki as all sorani was moved to sorani wiki. Whatever Sorani left in ku.wiki (if any is left at all - we see no evidence of it) should be moved to sorani wikipedia. -- とある白い猫 chi? 06:43, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
- It is a matter of sorrow to see someone, whilst provided by the facts, still insists on something which is against the plain fact. I really hate to repeat what is already recorded again and again, but for your-already proved zero knowledge in Kurdish affairs, I have to affirm that this is the way Kurdish language is! All Kurdish media and publications (with an inclusive approach) launch and publish in the same way. Kurdish people in the lack of a standard form and due to severe ethnic, linguistic, and even identical discrimination (e.g. the Turkey's government which even was given to deny that there ever exist any Kurd on their territory at all) are accustomed to such a situation which is only resolved once there would be a "standard" form for Kurdish language. Also, and again for your vaguest knowledge in this case, Sorani and Kurmanji are not that different to make a Sorani user totally messed while visiting the main page written in Kurmanji. By the way it is not you who decides whether Sorani Kurdish articles written in latin script are to be moved to any where or not.--Kak Language 07:37, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
- What are these "Kurdish affairs" I am supposed to care about? How are they even relevant to this language creation/rename procedure? I could care less about what the Turkish or Japanese government claims so save me the politics. The point of wikipedia is the writing of the free encyclopedia in many languages - as many as possible. Wikipedia is not an experimental political forum for you to push a certain point of view. -- とある白い猫 chi? 17:48, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
- You just answer yourself, but also do not heed it. This, as you mentioned, language procedure is all about Kurdish language and you, in spite of your already proven zero knowledge in Kurdish language and languages spoken by Kurdish people, only tamper with this issue so wrongheadedly.
- I know what the point of Wikipedia is. I have, thanks be to God, dropped all the prejudice typically found in peoples of Middle Eastern origin, and now even my mere purposeof standardization of Kurdish language, for instance, is to preserve this language (comprised of the Northern, Central, and Southern dialects) as a part of the Human heritage. It is certainly you that must be reminded of not to involve biased intentions, of any kind, over here.--Kak Language 15:49, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
edit point 3Edit
Mutual intelligibility isn't a clear-cut issue, some speakers might claim they understand the other dialect, other will insist they don't. But here are some examples of Wikipedias where at least some speakers will claim they can't understand the other dialects: the Wikipedia in North Frisian (4 different dialects, one for each island, who are unable to communicate with each other) or the Romansh Wikipedia (5 different regional standardized varieties (Sursilvan, Sutsilvan, Surmeir, Putèr, and Vallader), of which the two largest ones (Sursilvan and Vallader) are not mutually intelligible, plus a 6th one (Rumansch Grischun) which was intended to unify the 5 regional dialects but which most Romansh speakers don't react very kindly to). If you think that we shouldn't have Wikipedias like that, then you're free to suggest a corresponding policy, but not to prove a point with ku.wiki. Why shouldn't the folks at ku.wikipedia be allowed to still accept Sorani content even if a separate Sorani Wikipedia exists? The amount of actual Sorani content is irrelevant because the point is that ku.wikipedia accepts Sorani content in principle. Most articles on the Romansh Wikipedia are in Rumansch Grischun, a few are in Sursilvan, and a handful in the other dialects. The important thing is that both my Sursilvan-speaking roommate or my Putèr-speaking classmate could in principle write articles in their varieties (if they were Wikipedians that is). --Terfili 08:20, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
- No, it's not "irrelevant". If there are no articles in Sorani, and all articles are in Kurmanji, then it's clearly a Kurmanji Wikipedia, regardless of any statement of principles. Romansh has a single ISO code because it is considered to be a single language; Kurmanji, Sorani, Kirmanjki and Southern Kurdish have separate ISO codes because they're considered to be separate languages (despite the protestations of you and "Kak Language", who seems to be interested in creating separate Wikipedias in Kirmanjki and Southern Kurdish - interesting). Romansh has a single standardized language that is used at that Wikipedia; North Frisian doesn't have separate language codes/is not considered separate languages by ISO. --Node ue 17:16, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
- No, Romansh does not have a single standardized language, it has 6 different ones. The one that some people are trying to establish as a single standard, Rumantsch Grischun, isn't even taught in all Romansh primary schools, see this map I've drawn. The fact that Rumantsch Grischun dominates in the Romansh Wikipedia is simply because there is pretty much only one active editor, who happens to prefer Rumantsch Grischun. See this category for some articles not written in Rumantsch Grischun but in the regional standards. As far as I can tell, a similar situation exists at ku.: in principle open to all Kurdish dialects, but most active editors write in Kurmanji. This doesn't make ku. a Kurmanji Wikipedia. Remember that many Wikipedia editions simply don't attract very many editors, so one variety can quickly appear to dominate, just like Rumantsch Grischun dominates rm.wiki because the only active editors happens to write in it. It would however, be helpful if the editors of ku.wiki could give us a few examples of Sorani content. --Terfili 17:46, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
- @Node eu:It is completely irrelevant, Node eu. I’ll answer your argument about Sorani – Kurmanji articles below but regarding ISO language codes I have to remind you that these so-called language codes are not to convey the message of any linguistic significance at all. That is to say Persian dialect of Afghanistan, namely Dari, has also got an ISO language code but it linguistically is, from a lingual aspect, no different than Persian dialect of Iran, or Farsi, and both are dialects of what is scientifically known as New Persian language. If I am not mistaken even British English has similarly a language code. I, contrary to your obvious affirmation, doubt Dari or British English are scientifically considered to be separate languages on their own. Or probably you, as a self-assured linguist, still do not know the very difference between a dialect and a language? I think you should really start off finding practically reliable sources for your studies as a linguist.
- Yes I am interested in creating Wikipedia projects in Southern Kurdish dialect of Kurdish language and Kirmanjki dialect of Zazaki language. I generally wish to have encyclopedias in as many languages, and their relative dialects,as possible over there.
- By the way I am not conversant with Romansh language-and generally with Romance linguistics and I also do not prefer to make mock of myself by taking part in issues that I have the vaguest idea about, but based on your expressed opinions regarding “Sorani language” and “ISO language codes”,I, all due respect, am not going to take your linguistic claims seriously anymore-unless provided by scientific back up.--Kak Language 15:51, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
- I highly doubt your claim that Romansh speakers cannot understand each other in written form; I do not speak Romansh but do speak Spanish and Portuguese and can already understand much of rm.wp, so it seems unlikely that speakers of different dialects can understand less than I can rather than more. So until you can prove that rm is multiple languages and ku is not, I don't see the point in continuing this discussion. ku.wp is a Kurmanji Wikipedia right now; a better parallel case is no.wp, which was once for all Norwegian, but after the split off of the Nynorsk Wikipedia, removed Nynorsk articles and is now labelled in interwiki links as "Norsk (Bokmal)". This is a similar case- Sorani articles were once accepted at ku.wp, but seem to have all been deleted/transferred after the creation of ckb.wp. --Node ue 19:38, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
- Many Romansh speakers aren’t interested in understanding other dialects, which is a big factor in mutual intelligibilty. If you go to a Romansh-speaking area in the Surselva and ask them if they understand Rumantsch Grischun or Vallader, they will usually respond with a long rant about „those crooks who are trying to impose Rumantsch Grischun on us“ or something similiar. See Ricarda Liver (2000) in Schläpfer, Robert & Bickel, Hans (edit.): Die viersprachige Schweiz. 2nd edition, pp. 219 on the question of mutual intelligibility between Romansh varieties. The point is that とある白い猫 was arguing that having highly divergent varieties within a single Wikipedia edition is unworkable, which is not a valid argument since there are many editions, like rm., that allow quite a degree of variation.
- Look, if the ku. community was arguing that Kurmanji represents Kurdish as a whole or that it should be embraced by all Kurdish speakers as a common standard and that it should stay at ku. for that reason, I would argue for moving it. But they’re not. The statements we have from ku. users so far, state that all Kurdish dialects are permitted there. I’m gonna go with their claims rather than by the claims of non-speakers like you and とある白い猫 that Sorani is not permitted on ku.wikipedia, and I hope the people who will have to implement such a move will do the same. There clearly is an interest on the part of Kurdish speakers to maintain a common edition alongside editions for specific dialects. --Terfili 20:39, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
- @Node eu: It is disappointing that you too, after the proposer of this request, cannot grasp the plain fact that in case of Kurdish language, for now, being written or contributed in a specific dialect or by its relative speakers does not necessarily imply that the project is not Kurdish. Concerning the present conditions of Kurdish language, which I have already explained earlier, a project is supposed to be not Kurdish only when one or two dialects, out of the three major ones, are not allowed in. That is to say if a project, of any sort, claims to receive contribution in Northern, Central, and Southern dialects of Kurdish language therefore it is a project in Kurdish language and is essentially inclusive. Major Kurdish media launch their programs in the same way. But in case of Wikipedia, which is a free encyclopedia and is not to hire people to work for its language projects, it is immaterial that how much Sorani or Southern Kurdish speaking users contribute to Kurdish Wikipedia. All a Kurdish Wikipedia needs in practice is allowing articles in any dialect and sub-dialect of Kurdish language, as well as receiving support in order to attract as much contributoras, at least, sufficient.
- It is, unfortunately, another hint of your lack of knowledge in Iranian linguistics to compare the case of Norwegian with the Kurdish proper. In case of Kurdish, as opposed to Norwegian, there is-for various reasons no standard form at all and the Kurdish proper presently means including all three major dialects. As far as I am concerned it is, compared to well-known European language, a rather unique situation which is shared-to my ken by some other Iranian languages such as Talyshi language (with no standard form and comprised of two major dialects: Northern and Southern).Sorani articles, because of what is said above, must be-and already are accepted in Kurdish Wikipedia.--Kak Language 15:57, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
- Sorani articles have ALREADY been mass-removed/deleted. Not out of malice of course, but instead because Sorani wikipedia was created. It is irrelevant weather Sorani dialect is allowed or not, such content was transwikied off of ku.wikipedia already. All subsequent Sorani editions are because of the confusion stemming from ku.wiki's language code implying that that's where Sorani articles should go when they should instead go to Sorani wikipedia.
- Could you explain to me the point of having multiple editions of wikipedia then? Really. There already is a Sorani wikipedia, why should Sorani be permitted on ku.wikipedia (or any other language edition except Sorani Wikipedia)? And no regardless if what you claim, working with multiple language variations on a single wiki is very difficult. In fact it is so difficult that two dialects have broken off of ku.wikipedia because of such difficulties to the point that Zazaki wikipedia does not even want to be associated with "Kurdish" (or so I am told). Therefore your example fails to address even one of the concerns mentioned.
- The only reason we have multi-dialect wikis is to have some sort of an incubator project where those individual dialects will eventually mature enough to breakaway to be their own wikis - this was the practice before incubator itself was created. Ku.wiki does not need to act as an incubator anymore. The two more popular dialects (Sorani and Kurmanji) have matured enough to have their own wikis and other two have incubator entries.
- -- とある白い猫 chi? 06:08, 14 September 2011 (UTC)
- The Sorani Wikipedia is written entirely in the Arabic script, so ku. clearly still serves a purpose in providing a venue for Sorani-speakers using the Latin script. You haven't addressed that issue so far. We have different editions when people can't work together on the same project (such as what happened with nds and nds-nl), not for cases when the community is willing to work together, and at least some Sorani editors apparently still prefer to work on ku. But I've really said all that needs to be said and I don't think there is any point in trying to convince each other any further. I think that local communities should be able to decide which varieties they want to permit, you think otherwise. --Terfili 09:53, 14 September 2011 (UTC)
- @とある白い猫|とある白い猫: There are Sorani articles in Kurdish Wikipedia and I as a native Sorani speaker, for example, can contribute Sorani articles over there any time I wish. Such a statement of yours just betokens your lack of knowledge about Kurdish Wikipedia, besides your profound ignorance regarding Kurdish language.
- All your rationalizations in order to close Kurdish Wikipedia are in zero effect since youmiss the reality of Kurdish language, so ignorantly. Kurdish, though presently, lacks a standard form and as a common agreement Kurdish media, for instance, which claim to be inclusively Kurdish broadcast their programs in the major dialects. Thus, in case of Wikipedia projects, there must be a project which allows contribution in all Kurdish dialects. Regardless of how much contribution in various dialects it currently receives, it must exist.
- By the way I agree that there could potentially be a Kurmanji Wikipedia.Nonetheless it is certainly not you, with such a deep lack of awareness regarding Kurdish language,who determines if Kurdish dialects are, in this case, matured enough or not and also-based on what I have already explained- such a potentiality does by no means suggest that Kurdish Wikipedia (which is to embrace entries in all Kurdish dialects) should be wiped off the face of world wide web.--Kak Language 16:10, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
- With all 6 of the articles? I am sorry we already have wikis with multiple scripts. The foundation created sorani wikipedia for all of sorani not just for arabic script. Nothing suggests latin script Sorani is unwanted on Sorani wikipedia. Local communities are permitted to allow whatever dialect they like, this however should be in good faith and not defying common sense. Sorani and Zazaki articles have no place in any wiki but their own. I don't see the point of having multiple wikis for any language. -- とある白い猫 chi? 03:10, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
- After the proposed rename, it is possible to have incubators for all of the remaining dialects of Kurdish (excluding Sorani and Kurmanji). Sdh (southern Kurdish) dialect and Kirmanjki already have relevant incubator entries. So what other dialects are currently on ku.wikipedia? Frankly I do not see the point of ku.wikipedia currently - Particularly after the breakaway of Sorani - as there clearly is an interest to spread the project to multiple wikis. Rename doesn't mean Kurdish is less significant - it just means the wiki has matured enough to break into multiple wikis. -- とある白い猫 chi? 17:39, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
- In this case, based on the unique situation of Kurdish language explained above, Sorani articles-along with articles in Kurmanji and Southern Kurdish dialects must be allowed in Kurdish Wikipedia all together. Zazaki is all out of the question and it is only another aspect of your absurd-due to your insistence- unawareness to make mention of this language which is linguistically independent of what is known as Kurdish language, neverthelessit is historically spoken by Kurdish people.
- It is a clear cut fact that you do not want to see the point. I assume you are not that retarded to let the facts of Kurdish language to elude your grasp. Then the only thing presumable is that you are inwardly manipulated by sorts of prejudice which, regarding to your Turkish or Azerabaijani origin, could most likely be interpreted as chauvinistically Turkish interest. Kurdish language has no standard form and a Kurdish Wikipedia must function, similar to inclusive Kurdish media, in such a way as to embrace contributions provided in either of the major dialects, namely Northern, Central, and Southern Kurdish dialects. The existence of Wikipedia projects in any of the aforementioned dialects does not preclude the foregoing unique condition of Kurdish language in which it necessarily demands to include all dialects in the lack of a standard form.--Kak Language 16:18, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
Oppose: Ku.wikipedia is a wikipedia for all Kurdish dialects. No Kurdish dialect is prohibited and will never be prohibited.--Ferhengvan 10:29, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
Oppose: As a Kurd, I dont wanna participate in the JOKE of User:とある白い猫|とある白い猫 =White cat . I really dont understand the problem of Turks. Why you are always aganist Kurdish language? Im sick of it, thats why i write it here. Mr. Turkish とある白い猫|とある白い猫 , i think you should let this our own problem to us. You dont know anything about Kurdish language, but you wanna decide for Kurdish. Thats really funny! We dont accept this PERSONAL proposal! There must be used ku.wikipedia to refer KURDS. --Gomada 11:46, 14 September 2011 (UTC)
- While understandable, emotional comments like this aren't very helpful to your cause. Much more helpful would be if someone provided links to different articles written in different dialects. --Terfili 05:48, 14 September 2011 (UTC)
- There is nothing understandable about personal attacks. -- とある白い猫 chi? 06:24, 14 September 2011 (UTC)
- ku.wiki is a project I care about, a lot. I was among the people who removed copyrighted images from ku.wikipedia before with my temporary admin access there. Copyrighted images still occupy the vast majority of the uploads to ku.wikipeida despite my past efforts. What do you think will happen if the foundation receives a cease and desist letter over the content on ku.wikipedia? They will either tear down the entire language edition (until issue is resolved at least which could be months) or tear down all images.
- Language editions of wikipedia do NOT refer to ethnic groups of any kind - they merely refer to people speaking a specific language regardless of their country of origin or ethnicity. That is why for example German wikipedia does not refer to German people but instead to German speakers. Official policy #3: The committee does not consider political differences, since the Wikimedia Foundation's goal is to give every single person free, unbiased access to the sum of all human knowledge, rather than information from the viewpoint of individual political communities.
- -- とある白い猫 chi? 06:21, 14 September 2011 (UTC)
- You will be better off if you care it more not to tamper with something which is beyond your ken. Your cited policy is exactly to concern you since you have managed for such a request whilst possessing zero knowledge about Kurdish language and still, despite the aforesaid conditions of Kurdish language, stick to your rationalizations-based on your zero knowledge- wrongheadedly.--Kak Language 16:18, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
edit point 4Edit
Terfili, this is an example of an article in Central Kurdish  there is a template saying that the article is in Soranî (=Central Kurdish), I shall change it to "Central Kurdish"; and this is an example of Southern Kurdish , and this an example of Zazakî/Dimilkî , with its template, and also with a template which informs us that the same article exists in an other dialect. Before the creation of ckb.Wiki templates were used to redirect between articles in Latin script and Arabic script. From now on I shall personally see that all articles in Central and Southern Kurdish will have their templates. Also on the front page there is information about the main dialects, and if there is a separate Wikipedia projects in these dialects.
Kurdish Wikipedia is welcoming any person to write articles in any dialect of Kurdish in Latin script.
As to copyrighted files commented by とある白い猫 above, I inform you that this is something we are dealing with, with support and help from a Steward. It's true, it's a huge work, but since some time now, all pictures are uploaded in Wikimedia Commons and copyrighted files are being deleted. Unfortunately, the excessive criticism from とある白い猫 isn't of much help for Kurdish Wikipedia. --MikaelF 07:19, 14 September 2011 (UTC)
- It is hardly excessive criticism. It is a serious legal threat poised at the Wikimedia foundation and all Wikimedia projects. If ku.wiki is handling the issue on it's own, I would be most pleased with that.
- It is greatly problematic for dialects with incubators to be posting on ku.wikipedia mind you. That means the incubator projects wont mature and hence never become separate wikis. Is the intention ku.wiki to essentially block the maturing of these dialects to their separate wikis?
- -- とある白い猫 chi? 09:06, 14 September 2011 (UTC)
- Yes I agree, because your activities, in this case, might not even merit the title of “criticism” at all. Someone with the vaguest knowledge about an issue can by no means criticize it. Kurdish dialects, sub-dialects, and accents can independently possess their own incubators and then Wikipedia projects. But Kurdish Wikipedia project, as far as Kurdish language lacks a standard form, mustembrace editors who prefer not to contribute to the dialectal, sub-dialectal, or accentual projects but rather they wish to collaborate with Kurdish Wikipedia.--Kak Language 16:19, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
- Thanks for the links demonstrating that not only Kurmanji is used on ku.wikipedia, MikaelF. I hope that resolves this issue. Problems with image licensing are a totally different matter and have nothing to do with whether or not the Kurdish Wikipedia should be moved or not. As to the concerns that incubator projects won't mature: perhaps these dialects will mature even better on ku.wikipedia than in the incubator. From my experience, "real" Wikipedias tend to attract many more editors than incubator projects. I don't see how having one is detrimental to the other, since content can easily be imported from one to the other, thus enriching both versions in content. --Terfili 09:53, 14 September 2011 (UTC)
- I do not believe ku.wiki has the kind of experienced editors incubator offers. Contributors at incubator are hardly fake. 3 links is hardly sufficient for us to determine anything... I still stand by my assessment that ku.wiki is almost entirely Kurmanji if not completely. And here is why: 6 Sorani uses, 14 southern Kurdish uses, 65 Zazaki uses. These are hardly that many articles. Zazaki wiki exists so there is no reason to have any zazaki on ku.wikipedia. After transwikiing 6 articles to Sorani wiki and 65 articles to Zazaki wiki, we will be left with 14 non-kurmanji articles on ku.wikipedia which can be transwikied to the relevant incubator. After that ku.wiki would be all kurmanji. -- とある白い猫 chi? 18:08, 14 September 2011 (UTC)
- I have already answered this rationalization of yours above. But for your last sentence I have to say that it, similar to most of your rationalizations over here, reminds of this: “after this, therefore because of this.”--Kak Language 16:22, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
- Oh and one of the examples was a copyright violation and I have removed the infringing content. -- とある白い猫 chi? 18:13, 14 September 2011 (UTC)
- The article you deleted, is not a copy from that website. They have copied the article from Kurdish Wikipedia. So , please stop to be Vandal in Kurdish Wikipedia! --Gomada 20:52, 14 September 2011 (UTC)
- Gomada, while you are correct that it was not a copyright violation, accusations of vandalism should not be applied to users who are acting in good faith. Since とある白い猫 believed it was a copyvio, とある白い猫 was acting in good faith and is therefore not a vandal. --Node ue 19:39, 14 September 2011 (UTC)
- Dear Node ue, are you duplication of とある白い猫? You've written as he is your twin. Whatever, I told you in the beginning, i dont wanna participate in this joke. So , i dont wanna waste my time here. There is much thing to do for Kurdish Wikipedia. Therefore i would like to work there. Goodbye.. --Gomada 9:50, 15 September 2011 (UTC
- Gomada, I resent the accusation; I have been at Wikipedia for almost 10 years now and even appeared in a documentary about Wikipedia. The fact that I happen to share an opinion with someone else doesn't mean we are the same person. --Node ue 19:37, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
- Thats what i mean, we are not here to protect or support somebody. You reminded me some event[] about some turkish general, i wanna share with you. There were some bad turkish soldiers who tried to kill kurdish civils but they have been captured. After that event , journalists asked about the event to the turkish general and he said , i know them(soldiers) , They are good guys. I briefly told it.I hope , you understand me. Have a nice time.--Gomada 23:32, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
- Oh, please, that is ridiculous. We are talking here about changing language codes of a Wikipedia, not trying to kill anybody. I don't see how you can compare the two. You are essentially making light of a very grave human rights situation by comparing it to a little debate on the Internet about language codes. Get over yourself, not everybody who disagrees with you is Turkish (I'm certainly not), and not everybody who disagrees with you is a soldier, or a violent person. I am a pacifist and have actually been arrested and beaten rather than choose to hurt other people. So have fun with your strange accusations. --Node ue 15:45, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, we are talking about somebody's idea for changing Kurdish code. So, read our conversation once again, and dont try to change what i meant.--Gomada 20:40, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
- No one is proposing to change Kurdish code. kmr IS Kurdish - that is as long as you count Kurmanji dialect as Kurdish which I think you do. What do you think will happen if the rename happens? So far you have only accused people of things and have provided no linguistic or even technical reasons why this is a bad idea. -- とある白い猫 chi? 19:53, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
- Nobody is talking about changing the language code for Kurdish, we're talking about moving the Kurmanji Wikipedia, which is currently squatting at "ku" code, to the appropriate code - kmr. You have compared me to murderers for supporting such a move. A move from one language code to another! And I am compared to soldiers who kill civilians! You think this will convince me of your point? I live half way around the world from you, and I lost all respect for you when you compared a move of a language code to an attempted massacre of civilians. They are decidedly different things, and to compare one to the other implies a very high desire for unnecessary drama and a very low level of respect for human life on your part. Now, I have taken note of the fact that you seem to be particularly upset that Zazaki Wikipedia will soon overtake Kurmanji Wikipedia with number of articles. Why does this bother you? --Node ue 07:34, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
- You know what , now i understood that you wasted your 10 years here. You still dont know anything about rules of Wikipedia. Go to check zazaki wikipedia and you will see that , some stupid (who just cares numbers) creates all articles, and all are same content or empty . He uses different nicknames (Abramoviç, Erdemaslancan etc) and the stupid admin just acts like he is againist that. But i can see what they are doing. I will be so happy if i see many qualified zazaki articles. If you care wikipedia, go to try to stop those vandals! But , i think you have problem in your head. Why growing of some kurdish dialect should bother me? You dont know what you talk about! --Gomada 10:55, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
- You seem to have a strange concept of vandalism. What you mentioned isn't classifiable as vandalism. Erdemaslancan's edits such as  are called stub article creation - not vandalism. diq wiki has 11,947 articles with less than 2500 byte size while ku.wiki has 13,114 such articles. If that is vandalism, ku.wiki's situation is far worse. Fortunately this isn't vandalism. You are welcome to contribute to zazaki wikipedia expanding these articles into the quality level you hope for them. -- とある白い猫 chi? 15:11, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
- Hmm... Generally big blocks on unformatted text added by random ips is a copyvio, interesting. Indeed it wasn't a copyvio - at least not a dump Google can find. I am sorry I was mistaken. -- とある白い猫 chi? 03:00, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
- Terifili et al: ku.wp editors tried very hard to keep Zazaki speakers confined to ku.wp when they wanted nothing to do with it, just so they could continue living in their imaginary paradise where all Kurdish languages are supposedly mutually intelligible. Nothing is "resolved" since there are only 6 stubs in Sorani, 14 stubs in Southern Kurdish, and 65 pages in Zazaki which were either copied from or to the Zazaki Wikipedia. I don't believe your nonsense claims about Romansh, and they're irrelevant anyhow since we are talking here about languages with millions of speakers; a fracture of rm.wp or frr.wp would probably not be sustainable as these languages only number in the thousands of speakers.
- When Nynorsk Wikipedia first split off from Norwegian Wikipedia, there were requests to change the no.wp interwiki from saying "Norsk" to saying "Norsk (bokmål)". No.wp people originally said "But we accept articles in Nynorsk!". Of course, this is an invalid argument; the entire interface is written in Bokmål, as the interface at ku.wp is written in Kurmanji; the main page was in Bokmål (same with Kurmanji at ku.wp), and access options for Nynorsk users were limited to either using the separate Wikipedia, or reading a handful of low-quality articles in an otherwise totally Bokmål environment. What we are dealing with here are Kurmanji speakers who claim that their Kurmanji Wikipedia is for all speakers of Kurdish languages and bristle at any suggestion to the contrary; they fought tooth-and-nail against the creation of a Zazaki Wikipedia with the claim that "We allow Zazaki articles here!", which clearly didn't satisfy Zazaki language speakers who desired to work in an environment where they were not forced to work in a language they couldn't understand (Kurmanji language). So until Kurmanji Wikipedia admins make *everything* available in several dialects, including making the main page and interface quadrilingual (see Kashmiri Wikipedia for an example of using two varieties in a single interface translation/main page; and this pre-reform example from kw.wp of using four varieties on one mainpage), and people using those languages actually start contributing in their language on ku.wp, forgive me if I brush off the suggestion that ku.wp is anything other than the Kurmanji Wikipedia. --Node ue 18:52, 14 September 2011 (UTC)
- Even so, wouldn't that be wasted effort since we do have zazaki and sorani wikis already. Not to mention less popular dialects already have incubator entries. -- とある白い猫 chi? 19:11, 14 September 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, it is wasted effort as far as duplication of content goes, but it allows them to maintain their mental image of having a pan-Kurdish languages Wikipedia, which is only edited by Kurmanji speakers with 99% of articles in Kurmanji, interface in Kurmanji and main page in Kurmanji. --Node ue 19:36, 14 September 2011 (UTC)
- First of all I have already made mention of your fallacious-due to your zero knowledge about Kurdish language- comparison between Kurdish and Norwegian. Secondly Wikipedia editors may change, people come and some go. The individuals themselves also change. But after all it does not have anything to do with the fact that this request is basically out of question. That is it cannot change the plain fact that Kurdish language, presently, has no standard form and all Kurdish media, claiming to be inclusive, use all three major Kurdish dialects in order to represent Kurdish language. Thus it is essentially immaterial whether there are already Wikipedia projects or incubators in any Kurdish varieties since a Kurdish Wikipedia, currently, calls for a project in which all varieties of Kurdish language are allowed-regardless of how much contribution they receive. You can, all due respect, keep your kiss-off and use it on your self-asserting linguistic specialty, because Kurdish Wikipedia, contrary to your opinion, is essentially nothing but a Kurdish Wikipedia since it embraces contribution in any variety of Kurdish language, whilst a Kurmanji Wikipedia supposedly restricts itself to the articles written in Kurmanji dialect of Kurdish language.--Kak Language 16:25, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
- All three major Kurdish dialects? Which ones? Just so we are talking about the same dialects. I am guessing you mean Kurmanji, Sorani and... what else? -- とある白い猫 chi? 00:27, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
- My previous statement is clear. Your major problem is that you, in this particular case, only guess instead of affirming based on meticulous knowledge about the subject.--Kak Language 06:35, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
- No it isn't. Which third major dialect are you referring to? It really is a simple question. -- とある白い猫 chi? 18:07, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
- It simply illustrates another aspect of your devastatingly deep lack of knowledge regarding Kurdish language. This dialect is scientifically referred to as Southern Kurdish (including sub-dialects such as Kelhuri, Gerrusi, Feyli, and-as Dr. Baghbidi affirms Laki).--Kak Language 09:51, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- My brother Kak , dont waste your time with Turk. Let him to enjoy with his duplicate aka Node ue. We will not learn Kurdish from some Turk and his duplicate!--Gomada 22:12, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
- It is ok Gomada. User "とある白い猫" has already proved to hold the vaguest idea about Kurdish language and thus his rationalizations in this case only cause him to appear ridiculous.--Kak Language 09:51, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
edit point 5Edit
- This request in essence is quintessentially wasted effort. It is issued by someone (namely user "とある白い猫") with the faintest, as already proved, knowledge about Kurdish language and is clearly based on nothing out of mere ignorance regarding Kurdish linguistics. I can note the following concerning this request:
- Kurdish language has got a rather unique situation: it possesses no standard form. Subsequently-and as a conventionally accepted style amongst Kurds- Kurdish media, publications, and intelligentsia that claim to communicate in an inclusive manner use major Kurdish dialects to represent Kurdish language in practice.
- A Kurdish Wikipedia must duly be presented in major Kurdish dialects.
- For controversial cases, such as language of the main page, first of all it must be held in my mind that many Kurdish expressions, terms, and words are shared by all three major dialects (e.g. Kurdish counterparts of "welcome", "go", "page", etc.).
- Since approximately more than half of Kurdish speakers in the globe speak Kurmanji (a.k.a Northern) Kurdish dialect then it should not be surprising to use a rather Kurmanji grammar or more Kurmanji words in occasions where Kurdish counterparts do not match each other and a word from either of dialects should be chosen. The only justifiable objection with the Kurdish Wikipedia by now is the lack of Kurdish wordss in either Sorani or Southern dialects for the cases in which Kurdish counterparts differ widely.
- In accordance with the above facts it does by no means matter how many peoples from various Kurdish dialectal, sub-dialectal, or accentual origins contribute to Kurdish Wikipedia, because it must exist as well as absolutely welcome articles in any Kurdish dialect, sub-dialect, or accent.
- Wikipedia projects might potentially and independently exist in any Kurdish dialect, sub-dialect or accent just along with a Kurdish Wikipedia over there.
- Based on the above this request is all out of the question since it urges to rename Kurdish Wikipedia, which has almost every thing listed above (except for occasional Sorani and Southern Kurdish words), on account of pretexts and pretensions which are exactly against the facts explained above.
- I, with regard to the obvious racial, ethnic, or identical conflicts and intolerance within Middle East, personally maintain that a democratically liberal foundation such as Wikipedia is best to observe similar fallacious requests and activities the like which only raise unnecessary tensions and are issued by individuals that possess the slightest idea about the subject and are subsequently speculated of being chauvinistically or fanatically biased.--Kak Language 17:33, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
- So in a nutshell we either agree with you or we are chauvinistically or fanatically biased... Your claims of Kurmanji supremacy certainly conflicts with the liberal (free) foundations of wikipedia you mentioned. You have provided nothing tangible linguistically to counter this proposal. Current status of ku.wikipedia is complete Kurmanji dialect dominance nothing you say changes this assessment. -- とある白い猫 chi? 00:18, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
- So in brief, and as an absolute matter of unfortunate, you have proved to hold the vaguest idea about Kurdish language as well as languages spoken by Kurdish people. Thus such a request of yours, concerning Kurdish Wikipedia, is subsequently based on the vaguest ground ever. It is not my fault that the plain fact for any reason eludes your grasp. But since you, in spite of your deepest lack of knowledge regarding Kurdish language and clarifications provided by the others over here, still insist on your ignorance so wrongheadedly then it is deemed waste of time to discuss with you any more. Unless you would prove wrong either of the notes I have stated in this edit point.
- PS. Seemingly, based on your last words, your unawareness is not restricted to Kurdish linguistics but you also suffer from ignorance in terms of liberalism and democracy. Since you merely made mention of being "liberal" in terms of Wikipedia then I think you should really peruse basics of liberalism and democracy to comprehend the requirements of their mutual relation exactly.--Kak Language 07:15, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
- "Kurdish media, publications, and intelligentsia that claim to communicate in an inclusive manner use major Kurdish dialects to represent Kurdish language in practice" Hahaha, this shows your total and utter ignorance about this extremely relevant topic. Kurdish media does not represent all Kurdish languages in practice. VOA has separate sites for Soranî and Kurmancî: Kurmanji, Sorani. Sites like Nucexane, DengêAzad, Rewanbej are only in one Kurdish language. At this site there is even a Kurmanji-Zazaki dictionary for sale, obviously they are separate languages, as has been proven numerous times. So please do not come here telling your poorly informed lies; Kurdish media does NOT just mix dialects as you claim, the result would be completely unintelligible nonsense. --Node ue 16:09, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
- Kak language, you cannot filibuster language proposals such as this one. So far practically everything you said had been political at best compromising entirely of your personal opinions about how K urdish language supposed to be or how it should/may develop in the future. This is not your personal blog so please either present linguistic or technical reasons why you oppose this proposal, or stop wasting our time. -- とある白い猫 chi? 18:07, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
- @Node eu: a brief look at the procedure of this very page is sufficiently enough to confirm who is totally ignorant about this topic. You still appear to suffer in terms of discerning the scientific difference between a language and a dialect. Voice of America is by no means a representative of an "inclusive" Kurdish broadcasting channel. VoA, for your profoundly zero knowledge, has also independent programs in various Persian dialects. Kurdistan TV, Kurd Sat, Roj TV, Kanal 4, etc. are examples of inclusive Kurdish media. A popular Kurdish show, for instance, is hosted by Evin-a famous Kurdish hostess who presents her show in both Sorani and Kurmanji dialects. She, although you will most likely comprehend it not, speaks Suleymania sub-dialect of Sorani as well as Bahdinani sub-dialect of Kurmanji. That is the way Kurdish language, in the absence of a standard form, is. This currently amalgam would only change in emergence of a standard form and until then such a proposal as this-let alone on account of the zero relevant knowledge of its suggester- is all out of the question. Your, from now on, non-scientific as well as fallacious rationalizations are also to be left not responded unless you, and any individual supporting this request, would rationally prove wrong, through hard evidence, either of the notes I have highlighted over this edit point. But if you wanna waste time via spreading most unreliable pretensions on your own, so have a nice time.--Kak Language 19:09, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- I am sorry but I am growing very tired of you declaring anything we imply as "out of the question" without providing any linguistic input of any kind. Nothing is out of the question just because you declare it as such. I am also very troubled by your (Kak Language) and Gomada's abusive near-racist attitude here. I do not know how ku.wiki deals with personal attacks but we have a very low tolerance here on meta wiki. I kindly ask you to provide linguistic and technical arguments in a civilized and mature manner while avoiding personal attacks in the future. Failing to do so may lead to a block which is something I would want to avoid on inter-wiki incidents such as this one. I have not seen any level of convincing arguments from you for your opposition to the proposal here. Your argument's currently are based around TV programming on some random channels which is irrelevant. Ku.wikipedia only hosts one dialect and that's Kurmanji therefore it should be renamed to Kurmanji dialect based on that reason. Since there is a Sorani wikipedia Sorani content should go there. This is how wikis normally operate. -- とある白い猫 chi? 19:12, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- Believe it or not but I am so sorry too that you do not either care or respect what the fact is all about. All I have stated within this page is based on scientifically linguistic material. My arguments are comprehensively linguistic (the way Kurdish media, for your knowledge, perform-in the absence of a standard Kurdish language- is exactly a part of linguistic facts regarding Kurdish language).Individuals with even adequate linguistic knowledge regarding Iranian languages, and particularly Kurdish, are best to participate over here to measure my words. However I have, if felt needed, provided references too but it is-due to the matter of time- really wise not to go in more details regarding Kurdish linguistics with someone, such as you, who even does not know Zazaki is not a Kurdish dialect or Southern Kurdish is one of the major dialects of Kurdish language. I am not representing other users over here but I will be sorry if anyone would attack anybody else in person. I have had no personal attacks on you though I criticize it highly what for you, with such a deep lack of knowledge-which is already proved via your statements in this page- regarding Kurdish language, do involve yourself in a request which is based on pretexts that are obviously precluded with respect to the conditions of Kurdish language in effect. I appreciate your interest but I am also afraid your activities in this case, with regard to your zero knowledge about Kurdish language and your Turkish origin, could only cause unnecessary tension. Because people may speculate that what else rather than bias could your objective be when you request for closure of Kurdish Wikipedia and renaming it as Kurmanji Wikipedia whilst you prove to hold the slightest relevant idea about linguistics in general and Kurdish linguistics in particular. By the way your ignorance about Kurdish linguistics as well as your surprising insistence on your claims in spite of your unawareness regarding Kurdish language also troubles every body over here, first of all you yourself. It is not my fault if you cannot grasp the plain facts I have already explained through this page about Kurdish language and its specific situation. Nonetheless it is not surprising at all since you even did not know what are the major dialects of Kurdish or Zazaki is not a Kurdish dialect-let alone other issues that demand a very profound knowledge in Kurdish linguistics to be able to discuss about and comprehend thoroughly- a crucial knowledge which you have proved to lack in practice. For your information the norm of a Wikipedia project, all due respect, should be in accordance with the norm of the very language it represents. I have already and clearly made mention of the specific norms and unique conditions of Kurdish language. I am happily not weary of your practical unawareness regarding Kurdish language and I would cordially find it my pleasure to help you out in case of comprehending scientifically linguistic facts about Kurdish language via expatiation since as far as I am aware you have passed academical courses and procedures in university and thus you should not be incapable of grasping scientific criteria, but unfortunately I am not here to teach you Kurdish linguistics and thus I am not to repeat myself anymore. I am a native Kurdish speaker myself and I have been working on standardization process of Kurdish language which requires a very meticulously profound scientific knowledge about Kurdish language and generally linguistics and I believe that any unbiased man of a sound mind could understand the firm reality if reading this page. However any individuals, including you, are-in my viewpoint- most heartedly welocme to scientifically disprove, through hard linguistic material indeed, either of the notes I have provided in this very edit point. Until then there is no necessity to discuss the-already explained facts of Kurdish language, specially with someone such as you who, all due respect and unfortunately, even does not know Southern Kurdish is one of the major Kurdish dialects or language styles in broadcasting are a part of linguistic facts about a language or Zazaki is not a Kurdish dialect and so on.--Kak Language 21:23, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- In Belgium for instance they have TV and radio stations that broadcast in both French and Flemish/Dutch as well as occasional German. No one wanted a "Belgian wikipedia" as it is unnecessary. The Flemish despite being a distinct dialect from Netherlands Dutch can trivially understand Netherlands dutch. Likewise the Walloons of Belgium can understand French with trivial ease despite significant differences between French french and Belgian French. This is because each pair of dialects are mutually intelligible with each other. Understanding something like this does not require a PhD in linguistics or even require the basic understanding of scientific method. In sum because they are similar enough we do not need to have a Belgian-French wikipedia. The only time language committee is compelled to create a dialect wiki is when the dialect has an ISO code (ie it is considered distinct enough by the ISO to have a separate language code), and when the dialect is found to be distinct enough from the other dialect(s) after report(s) from experts in linguistics as well as the committee own analysis. Also the Committee will want to see if there is enough of a community to warrant the creation of the wiki as well as enough people to read it.
- Such Analysis already reached to the conclusion that Zazaki language was distinct enough to form its own wiki years ago back when Ku.wikipedia had an evidently unhappy Zazaki community. It is surprising that there still are Zazaki articles on ku.wikipedia when in your words "Zazaki is not a Kurdish dialect". Likewise a similar analysis last year lead to the creation of Sorani wikipedia because it was distinct enough from other dialects of Kurdish (particularly what is available on Ku.wikipedia aka Kurmanji dialect). The nomination adequately and thoroughly explains just how distinct Sorani is and how much Sorani speakers wanted to work on their own language edition and not on Ku.wikipedia. So evidently not only is it distinct in written language, as two different scripts are used, but also distinct enough in spoken language as bi-lingual programming is required for the audience to understand what is going on. So it is quite surprising to me when you want to put Sorani content into ku.wikipedia which is predominantly Kurmanji. Sorani speakers are even hinted to go to Sorani wikipedia at the main page of ku.wikipedia.
- -- とある白い猫 chi? 06:08, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
- I am afraid but, unfortunately, your sheer incompetency in this issue, due to your lack of knowledge about Kurdish linguistics, really bothers us all and makes further discussion to sound unproductive and unnecessary. It is, similar to the bulk of your arguments over here, is a pure example of fallacy to compare Kurdish dialects with independent languages such as Dutch, French, or German. No need to expatiate since the entire rationalization based on such a fallacious comparison is ruled out. In case of Zazaki language it was unfortunately due to the lack of linguistic knowledge and nationalistic interest and bias of some individuals over Kurdish Wikipedia opposing the creation of an independent project in Zazaki language. Nevertheless such a prejudice was, and unfortunately still is, mutual in this case since some of Zaza speaking folks over Wikipedia claim boastful historical, ethnic, and even archaeological pretensions (e.g. connecting a Babylonian village, Zezenu, appeared in ancient Persian texts, with the term Zaza; or claiming historical identity for a so-called Zaza people based on mere linguistic theories whilst all archaeologically as well as anthropologically hard material refute any historical identity outside of Kurdishness for Zaza speaking people). But it is not surprising if Zazaki articles still appear within Kurdish Wikipedia because is, besides Kurdish language, the body of languages spoken by Kurdish people: Kurdish, Zaza, and Gorani. These languages are historically spoken by Kurdish people in an exclusive manner (most likely except for Sivandi people in central Iran whose speech shares significant similarities with both Zaza and Gorani languages but they neither consider themselves Kurdish nor any archaeological evidence confirms historically Kurdish identity for them in a certain way). The majority of Kurdish people speak Kurdish language (comprised of three major dialects). Recently a considerable number of Zaza speakers may no longer-due to various factors consider themselves as ethnic Kurds but Zazas. Although still there are significant Zaza speaking people who retain their historical identity and as a matter of consensus of opinion ethnic Kurds, speaking any of the aforesaid languages, prefer to preserve their unity. But your emphasis in this case is also to be criticized as fallacious since Zazaki articles possess a distinct box within the main page under which there is a reference for the independent Zazaki Wikipedia. There is also another box for Sorani Wikipedia which as opposed to the Zazaki one contains no specific category but it is only a link for the independent Wikipedia project in Sorani dialect of Kurdish language. While, on the other hand, Southern Kurdish or Sorani articles contributed to Kurdish Wikipedia do not possess similar boxes at all. By the way you comparison between Zazaki language and Sorani dialect of Kurdish is undeniably another example of fallacy-which, regarding to your already proved zero knowledge in terms of Kurdish linguistics, is no wonder. Another, unfortunately, sheer instance of your fallacious rationalization appears in your statements on the creation of Sorani Wikipedia. Wiki projects are potential of being created in any dialect, sub-dialect, or even accent if they prove to receive sufficient contribution. ISO language codes, for your knowledge, exist for dialects of well-known languages such as Kurdish language which is spoken by tens of million individuals. Thus Sorani, Kurmanji, or Southern Kurdish dialects are potential of possessing Wikipedia projects just along with a Wikipedia project in Kurdish language. Potentiality of Wiki projects to be presented in various Kurdish dialects does by no means preclude the existence of Kurdish Wikipedia in the specific terms as I have overly explained. Not such a nomination no any other non-scientific argument can ever challenge the hard scientific fact that Kurdish language is linguistically comprised of three major dialects and these dialects are subsequently similar enough not to be considered as distinguished languages. You, up to now, have-all due respect only uttered either fallacious or non-scientific affirmations and you have proved to hold the slightest idea about Kurdish linguistics at all but only appear to seek a way to wipe Kurdish Wikipedia off the face of the world wide web, so desperately. Please, if you find yourself so obliged to involve yourself in topics regarding Kurdish language so devotedly, read my points meticulously and start off studying Iranian linguistics and, as a favor to everyone over here including yourself, first make sure that your further arguments and statements are not subject of fallacy or scientifically linguistic incompetency then post them here. Because it, to me, is unpleasing as well as waste of time to point out and clarify fallacious and non-scientific rationalizations of yours over and over. All due respect, and against my cordial will, I will-due to the matter of time- leave your further fallacious or non-scientific rationalizations not responded in practice. I am eagerly looking forward for your rational arguments which receive scientifically linguistic back up, though.--Kak Language 10:33, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
- I do not need to prove that Sorani is distinct enough from Kurmanji to warrant its own wiki because that split has already happened, with the relevant discussion and move of Sorani off of ku.wikipedia. This is not my claim, it is established consensus. You are trying to argue against such consensus without providing any shred of linguistic or technical reason. Since you insist, you are welcome to read this work by UCLA Language Materials Project as well as the linked publications on that page by various linguists. My rationale (that Sorani is distinct enough to have it's own language edition) is purely scientific and also based on consensus by the Language Committee as well as with the approval of Wikimedia Board of Trustees. My argument that ku.wikipedia entirely has content in Kurmanji dialect is also factually the case. So what is the problem here? -- とある白い猫 chi? 13:16, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
Thank you Kak Language for your accurate explanation of the situation of the Kurdish language. It is for Cat/Cool Cat/White Cat/To a ru Shiroi Neko (とある白い猫) an opportunity to learn about the Kurdish language, and listen to the users of the Kurdish language, and to stop patronizing us, the Barbarians in Kurdish Wikipedia, which means so much for him/her, and belittling facts Kak Language has explained above. ku.wiki is not going to be exclusively Kurmanji, and it isn't today, it is there for anyone who uses Kurdish in Latin script. How long time does it take for a standard language to emerge? Standard German or Italian have been developing for centuries, freely. Because of lack of political decisions and nationalwide language planning, the Kurdish language is enduring an unbelievable hardship, and standardisation is very difficult, particularly for the majority of Kurds in Turkey, where until very recently talking Kurdish was outlawry. But thinking positively again, efforts made by people like Kak Language of recent years and, Kurdish Wikipedia (ku) and Central Kurdish Wikipedia (ckb) may eventually one day open the way for a common standard Kurdish language. This is at least our aim. --MikaelF 14:31, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
- It is best of my pleasure to make every effort in order to preserve Kurdish language as a part of Human Heritage, Kak Mikael. Yes it is indeed an ideal opportunity for such a Turkish individual- so devotedly, at least in outward, interested in Kurdish- as user "とある白い猫" to learn about Kurdish linguistics. However s/he has somehow proved to miss it by means of falling pray to misconception unwittingly-which is due to his/her vaguest knowledge regarding Kurdish language. S/he, as the latest instance of sheer ignorance about Kurdish language, invites us to view a single page in UCLA website which is, according to his/her claim, to prove that Sorani and Kurmanji are respectively single languages from the certain aspect of scientifically linguistic consensus. In that page is reflected the viewpoint of Ernest McCarus who used to hold that Kurmanji is a single language and Sorani dialect-not on its own but- all together with Southern Kurdish comprise another independent language. It is in fact a cause of regret to mention it but that very page, to the extreme wonder-or perhaps greatest regret- of everybody over here, also explicitly considers three key dialects, including Kurmanji (Northern) and Sorani (Central) and Southern ones, for Kurdish language! A consideration which is indeed in accordance to the certainly general consensus of current Kurdish linguistics shared by most reliable and famous experts in Iranian-particularly Kurdish- linguistics such as David Neil McKenzie (whom professor Ehsan YarShater, the most renowned Iranian linguist, described as the greatest Kurdologist of all time), Paul Ludwig (contributor of "Kurdish language" article within Encyclopedia Iranica) and Dr. Hassan Rezai Baghbidi (a well-known linguist and head of Iranian Dialectology in the Iranian Academy of Persian Language and Literature). I do not wish to speculate possibilities of "lack of pure reason", "poor English understanding", "nationalistic prejudice", etc. and I just let the user "とある白い猫" alone with the readers of this current page to judge about his statements and rationalizations over here. But what one, after all of these fallacious affirmations, could really expect user "とある白い猫" to assert any more? Surely the Language Committee is qualified enough to appreciate the very conditions and present requirements of Kurdish language in the lack of a standard form. I find myself sincerely obliged to thank you and all colleagues in Kurdish Wikipedia and Sorani Wikipedia for your wholehearted efforts. I too hope that eventually a both scientifically and commonly standardized form of Kurdish language will be achieved and the lack of a standard form will not force us any more to write in various Kurdish dialects in order to represent Kurdish language inclusively.--Kak Language 12:20, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
- Interestingly, you are actually lying. You claim that ku.wikipedia is for "anyone who uses Kurdish in Latin script", yet you made this post: . Please tell us which is correct, do you accept all Kurdish in Latin script, or do you reject writings in Yekgirtú? --Node ue 18:03, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
- Now can you explain to me what Yekgirtú is? Why do some people use Yekgirtú, some Yekgirtû, and some other Yekgirtî? Why was I against Yekgirtú in this very case? Why haven't I changed anything in Kak Language's articles? By the way, Kak Language's articles are they written in Yekgirtî, Yekgirtû or Yekgirtú? Now as you presume to know yourself, what is the difference? --MikaelF 19:35, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
- Yekgirtú is an initiative of the Kurdish Academy of Language to create a single standardized Kurdish writing system, it doesn't seem to be widely accepted. As far as why you were against it in this very case, you can tell us that yourself, and I'm never able to know your specific motivations for anything because I'm not a mind reader. Of course Kak Language's articles are written in Yekgirtú, he is a proponent of yekgirtú so why would they be written in anything else? "Yekgirtú" just means something is united, "yekgirtû" (یهکگرتوو) is the Soranî word and "yekgirtî" is the Kurmancî word, as far as I know. Perhaps you can correct me if I'm wrong? --Node ue 23:14, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
- Thank you, you have explained it better than I could have done. Everyone using Latin script is welcome in Kurdish Wikipedia, it's not a lie, even articles using Yekgirtú, as you can see from Kak Language's articles. The Latin script used generally by Kurds is the Hawar-script, developed in the 1930's and used in the magazine Hawar publish by Jeladet Bedirkhan in Syria. This Latin script is accepted by majority of Kurdish writers and so by Kurdish Wikipedia. Kak Language's proposal Yekgirtú is in my opinion, a valid and respectable proposal for a futur situation when eventually a proposal of uniting the Kurdish script is made, be Hawar, be Yekgirtú or be Arabic script, a decision of Kurdish academies and institutes and the majority of the writers and linguists in Kurdistan (Turkey, Syria, Iran, Iraq). Kak Language's articles are in Southern Kurdish, a dialect which hasn't an established orthography. Wikipedia is not to decide if articles in Southern Kurdish must be in Hawar or Yekgirtú script.
- Recapitulating again, the way to present this proposal has been very little respectful, from the very beginning by a person who doesn't belong to any of the two Kurdish Wikipedia communities and who has no knowledge of the Kurdish language and very little knowledge about the Kurds, namely Cat/Cool Cat/White Cat/To a ru Shiroi Neko (とある白い猫). It also presumes that all users in the Kurdish Wikipedia must have high degrees in English to be able to participate in this discussion, and in less than 24 hours must be able to account for what the Kurdish language is or isn't, and act as professional linguists to be able to reply to all possible inquisitorial questions, for then to be hushed at or be belittled and not be taken serious. Above the Kurdish Wikipedia is pictured like the evil, from which the Zazaki Wikipedia and Central Kurdish Wikipedia happily have been able to escape from. I had a Turkish friend once, who despised everything related to Kurds in Turkey, but had a miraculous admiration for the Kurds in Iraq. I try to have good faith here but the proposal made by White Cat/To a ru Shiroi Neko reminds me of this person. --MikaelF 14:49, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
- These two accounts displayed by user names "とある白い猫" and "Node eu" so desperately try to seek a way to rationalize it to wipe Kurdish Wikipedia off the face of the world wide web. Such an attempt, though, has been proved to be established basically on a fallaciously non-scientific ground. No need to expatiate it any longer since the existence of my articles in Yekgirtú script proves wrong "Node eu"'s criticisms once again. Although I am still looking forward for his/her most reliable material that are allegedly to prove Sorani as a separate language and that ISO language codes are entirely equal to scientific confirmation of being language, nonetheless his/her failure-as a self asserted linguist- in providing such most reliable sources has disappointed me so far. I think these two aforementioned user names are to be left alone with their rationalizations, until-as I have already expressed- they would provide scientifically hard linguistic evidence for their claims instead of providing fallacious and non-scientific information or disguising scarcely confirmed opinions in the garment of linguistically general consensus. Mikael, knowledge is power and nothing can essentially falsify the truth- specially in the age of the information explosion.--Kak Language 13:18, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
It seems clear this dicussion with Kak Language will go nowhere since he is unwilling to admit he is wrong in this case. If we continue this discussion, we will only see more walls of text that contain mostly thinly-veiled personal insults, which doesn't really get anybody anywhere. --Node ue 17:56, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
- I am inclined to agree. UCLA document is brief and clear enough. -- とある白い猫 chi? 23:05, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
- Also, looking back, I think it would've been better to name this page "Renaming of Kurdish Wikipedia". Although the community consultation process is similar to that of a closure, calling it that is bound to inflame tensions more than labelling it as the technical procedure it really is. --Node ue 23:17, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
- There is no "rename" process in existence, this seems to be the only option. The proposal was called a rename since the very start. Feel free to rename if you think it is necesary but bear in mind I do not want to upset langcom bots. :) Reading back, so the Yekgirtú is in essence a constructed language? How many speakers does it have? Does it have an ISO code? -- とある白い猫 chi? 20:59, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
- Yekgirtú is an orthography used to try to unify the different Kurdish languages, it has no native speakers (technically, no standard varieties have native speakers from a linguistic standpoint, including Standard English) and no ISO code; according to some it is usable for all Kurdish speakers but I am skeptical. --Node ue 22:50, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
- From the perspective of LangCom the dialect/constructed language is probably irrelevant if there are no native speakers and no ISO code. -- とある白い猫 chi? 10:37, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
As a reply to the above stated in the proposal box: "Statistical analysis of non-Kurmanji content on ku.wikipedia: 6 Sorani uses, 14 southern Kurdish uses, 65 Zazaki uses. Sorani and Zazaki have no purpose being on ku.wikipedia as they have their own wikis.", at the moment more than 30 articles are in Central Kurdish dialect (Soranî), which is by the way also named Southern Kurmanji, most of them originally written in Latin script, an therefore not transferred to the Soranî wp in Arabic script. And thus serve their purpose and will stay in Kurdish wp. Please note that the main page of the Kurdish wp gives Welcome to Central Kurdish, Southern Kurdish and Zazakî/Dimilî (even it is not considered Kurdish anylonger). Articles are welcome in Latin script if the user prefers Latin script, this is the way Kurdish works. Information about the Kurdish language please read Kak Language, whose explanation comes closest to what the situation of the Kurdish language is today. As stated above by Kak Language he is willing reply to any further serious question, which has not been clear above. I don't understand what Nue ue means by saying, that Kak Language "is unwilling to admit he is wrong in this case". In which case is s/he referring to?
As to the Zaza language as a Kurdish dialect, please read Kak Language above.
Kirmanjki is a dialect of Zazaki, not the Kurdish language.
As to the UCLA document Cat/Cool Cat/White Cat/To a ru Shiroi Neko = とある白い猫 refers to above, it's obvious that more updated information is necessary. The Kurdish language today is not as it was 30 years ago, with Internet and TV, and the Kurdish press published particularly in the Autonomous Kurdish region in Iraq. Also very recently, on September 19-22, the Scientific Conference of the Kurdish Language (Konferansa Zanistî ya Zimanê Kurdî 2011) was held in Hewlêr (Hawler, Arbil), with special emphasis on the Kurdish standard language and how to make the two main dialects Northern Kurmanji and Central Kurmanji to approach. In a near future important decisions will be made, and Kurdish Wikipedia would act accordingly.
After the discussion above has Cat/Cool Cat/White Cat/To a ru Shiroi Neko = とある白い猫 proposed the Central Kurdish wp to develope a script switch Arabic / Latin?
The real intention with this proposal of change is still not clear to any of the users of the Kurdish wp and it receives no support from any editor/user of the Kurdish Wikipedia. Therefore we ask this proposal to be withdrawn. --MikaelF 13:32, 28 September 2011 (UTC)
- I sincerely agree.
- P.S. I am glad to say that we, Kurdish editors within Kurdish Wikipedia, are currently working the issue of Kurdish variants-the only justifiable objection- out and, as following the procedure, Central and Southern Kurdish counterparts and cognates are being continually added to the messages in which Kurdish terms differ considerably.--Kak Language 10:29, 29 September 2011 (UTC)
- The UCLA document is an up to date academic/linguistic analysis of Kurdish and its dialects. It is neither the best nor the only example of such academic work. For example what you say is in direct conflict with what linguists suggest. Harvard articles for example talk about Kurmanji and Sorani dialects separately as the two are so different from each other. The extend of differences are discussed in great detail. Those articles are dated 2006 so unless Kurdish dialects have changed in the past four years the two /main/ dialects that are separate enough to be their own wikis. Your original ideas/research on how Kurdish dialects supposed to behave is merely your opinions.
- Kurdish wikipedia has no official capacity to make decisions or act up on political decisions made at random conferences on how Kurdish supposed to be. That kind of decision solely lies with the Wikimedia Foundation through LangCom. I would even argue that what you claim is directly in conflict with the mission of Wikipedia. The goal is to make the free resource be available for as many people as possible. We are not here to write in a manner that in essence creates a new artificial dialect that an elite minority can understand or read with ease. If such a dialect thrives enough to be spoken by enough people and is distinct enough to be considered by ISO as a separate dialect, then LangCom could be consulted to create a new wiki for it.
- -- とある白い猫 chi? 00:31, 30 September 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose As a Sorani kurdi speaker and user of ckb wikipedia, I'm againist to change codes. We (users of ckb) don't have problem about codes. Because, ku.projects are for all Kurds. For example; I can create Sorani articles by latin alphabet in ku.wikipedia. ku code represents all of us. If Kurds have problem about codes, they can ask to change. We don't need to some people to decide for us. I hope, you have respect to our decision. Thank you.--Calak (talk) 09:23, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
- Oppose. God, this page is large! I saw it several months ago and I did not think it take so long. I didn't take it serious. Anyway, I'm against the rename. I'm "admin" in ckb and I have had contributions in ku (see). We (in ckb) had an agreement about every new article in our wp to be transformed into latin alphabet by the author using on-line or off-line utilities that would do that for us, and create the corresponding article in ku (a Sorani article with latin alphabet). For us, ku wp is not kurmanci wikipedia.--Aza (talk) 15:53, 10 June 2012 (UTC)