Grants talk:PEG/Bizdin Muras public foundation/Kyrgyz wikipedians movement

Some questions

Thanks for the submission. It's really good to hear that there is a group of people and organizations that plan to execute activities strongly aligned with the mission and goals of the Wikimedia Movement. My questions are mostly concerned with some aspects of the things that you set as your goals to achieve:

• What is the time frame for the project to be executed and completed?

We hope to start from 20 April 2013 to 28 February 2014 (10 months). --Chorobek (talk) 02:53, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

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• Do you think that it's possible to create 20,000 articles on the Kyrgyz Wikipedia when, at the moment, the total number of articles is barely above this number? What is the way that these articles can be created? Can you explain the way that you managed to increase the number of 4,500 to 24,000 articles during 2012?

We concluded agreement with national center of encyclopedia - "Kyrgyz Encyclopedia" to use their content for Kyrgyz Wikipedia. Within the scope of collaboration we digitized earlier published encyclopedias, edited a big amount of materials. We invited students trained by us to create articles from this content for Wikipedia. Because of this a lot of students were really involved into our movement. You can see on statistic that number of active editors grown up Summary statistic for Kyrgyz Wikipedia. We used wikibot to automated import of content as well. Usage of wikibot give us chance to concentrate on enriching of article. We created 20 000 articles within 9 months in 2012. And we consider that we will able to create another 20 000 in 10 month in this year. Now we have experience, will have more editors. --Chorobek (talk) 02:53, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

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• How many people you expect to start edit Wikipedia actively? You mention that 200 students will be reached through the 20 trainings, but what is the expected proportion out of these students to become very active editors? Do you rely mostly on these editors that will have to create 20,000 articles?

Usually from each trainings for 10 students only 1-2 becomes very active editors. 14 of 20 most contributed editors in Kyrgyz Wikipedia were trained by our project. Because of our project the number of active users increased. For example there are 64 editors who has more than 100 edits and I can say main part of them are our students (Please, look at Distribution of article edits over registered editors, incl. bots) --Chorobek (talk) 02:53, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

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• Do you plan to focus entirely on the Kyrgyz Wikipedia or the other Wikimedia projects in the Kyrgyz language will be included as well? Since you mention that dictionaries will be digitized in order to create articles on Wikipedia, do you consider the possibility to use them and create content on the Kyrgyz Wiktionary?

Sertanly, we will. But I didn't mentioned, for instance, Kyrgyz Wiktionary, because we don't plan it as definite part of this project. We consider it in our other plans. We interested in develop Kyrgyz Wiktionary and use digitized content for it. We believe it will be the most efficient way to promote Kyrgyz language into Google Translate. We are planning develop Kyrgyz Wiktionary in relation with Google Translate. --Chorobek (talk) 02:53, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

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• Can you provide any report from the two rallies of Kyrgyz Wikipedians that you've already conducted?

Usually, coverage of events are in Russian and Kyrgyz. There is no link in English. --Chorobek (talk) 02:53, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

• Photographic coverage from second rally (comments in kyrgyz)
• First Rally (comments in kyrgyz)

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• What is included in the unit price of $150 for each of the trainings?

We planned trainings for administrators as outside workshop. It includes cost of 2 nights staying at some holiday hotel. Average prices per night are about 60-70 USD per person. Plus rent of conference hall 100 USD, + transportation 100 USD. Average cost will about 150 USD per participant. --Chorobek (talk) 02:53, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

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• Can you give us more details about the conference that you plan to organize? What is the city it will take place in? How many people are expected to attend? What are the main expenses associated to it and included in the projected $3,000?

It will take place in some hotel near to Bishkek within 2 days. We expect about 40-50 participants. The main point is - give chance for different people with different approach and point of view come together to work out some general guidelines, put some strategic plans, create list of things must to do. We want to try develop some core group which will influence and direct to translation activities. It should not be just event for making presentation. This conference will sponsored by local nonprofit organisation and $3000 is preliminary budget supposed by sponsor. --Chorobek (talk) 02:53, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

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• Why is the difference in the salary of the project manager and the office manager so higyh? You have $700 per month for the project manager and only $150 per month for the office manager. Does it mean, perhaps, that the position of the office manager will be a part-time job? What are the amounts earned for holding similar positions in Kyrgyzstan?

Project must has director (manager) in staff. It is required by law. Manager salary included all taxation costs (10% - income tax, 9% - social insurance and 17% from the foundation as employer). Net salary of manager from $700 will $449,4. It's more or less normal salary for project manager. It's near to bottom than top. Office manager not required be in staff. Therefore, we are going to sign contract with office manager as freelancer translator, who works by license and will assist to project manager prepare reports in English (not only)for sponsor, translate manuals. Cost of taxation makes this big difference.--Chorobek (talk) 02:53, 24 March 2013 (UTC) ----

• Do you really need to by computers and a scanner to do the digitization? What do you think about the possibility to borrow this equipment and use as such until the digitization is completed? What is the purpose this equipment will be used for after the work with the digitization ends?

No need to purchase equipment. We show it as our contribution to project. --Chorobek (talk) 02:53, 24 March 2013 (UTC) ---

• Can you give use more information about the involvement of the Soros-Kyrgyzstan Foundation in the development of these activities in Kyrgyzstan?

Generally, information in Russian. Summarizing, I can say, that Kyrgyz Wikipedia started it's grow after the initiative of SFK. Before that there were only 1389 articles in Kyrgyz Wikipedia. SFK conducted "Week of Wikipedia in Kyrgyzstan" in 2011, in 2011 Provided 5 universities with free Wi-Fi access to Internet to encourage students to contribute Wikipedia, organized first wikipedians students communities, Conducted 2 annual rally of Kyrgyz wikipedians, project on digitization of kyrgyz language books. Now SFK is going to finance participation of 2 editors from Kyrgyzstan in Wikimania 2013. Soros-Kyrgyzstan Foundation still supporting projects aimed to develop open access knowledge in general. For instance SFK now processing online-dictionary project, which will have good impact for Wikimedia projects as well. Fore example spellcheckers for browsers from this project will help for editors to create good quality articles, or digitized glossary of Kyrgyz worlds will help develop high quality entries for Kyrgyz Wiktionary. --Chorobek (talk) 02:53, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

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• What is the total number of representatives that you would like to send at Wikimania 2013? You mention that the Soros-Kyrgyzstan Foundation will finance participation for two persons, but in the budget you have $6,000 for another two persons which implies a total number of four.

The Soros-Kyrgyzstan Foundation will finance participation for two persons.
I made preliminary calculation based on info from http://bilet.kg/. Cost of the ticket was shown about $1900 by Turkish Airlines. Now checked with local ticket sellers company and find out $950. Therefore budget of will change, but only 2 participants will sponsored. --Chorobek (talk) 02:53, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

In addition to the aforementioned questions, I'd like to mention some important notes and to give some suggestions. The propensity of the Wikimedia Foundation towards the purchase of technical equipment has been challenged in the past through several other grant requests submitted in the grantmaking process. Because of the ownership-related issue and the purpose of the equipment after completing the main activities, a conclusion not to finance such purchase has been made in each of the cases. Regarding the measures of success, my suggestion would be always to use the realistic scenario of the outcome. You really show to me that you're familiar with the measures of success and I'll be happy to see that you can easily manage to reach these numbers. Best regards.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 18:54, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

Thank you. --Chorobek (talk) 02:53, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for your detailed answers. Don't worry about the reports and the useful pages. Russian is fine. Could you just link me to the pages in Russian?--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 18:40, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

Below some links: --Chorobek (talk) 04:28, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

В Кыргызстане развивается кыргызская Википедия

В Кыргызстане состоялся слет википедистов

Чоробек Сааданбеков: Кыргызскоязычная "Википедия" нуждается в редактуре

В г.Чолпон-Ата прошел второй республиканский слет кыргызских википедистов – 2012

Beeline поддержал слет кыргызских википедистов

Число обращений к кыргызской Википедии только в октябре 2012 года составило 593 тысячи

В Киргизии прошёл второй слёт википедистов

ИТОГИ ВТОРОГО РЕСПУБЛИКАНСКОГО СЛЕТА КЫРГЫЗСКИХ ВИКИПЕДИСТОВ – 2012

Open Society Foundations. Kyrgyz-Wikipedia

Thanks.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 02:19, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

Incomplete form

Thanks for the submission. It looks like you copied this form from another page rather than following the instructions on the Grants:Index which has resulted in a form without any of the basic information required. It seems like this is a grant to an organization, and so the following information should be added to the top of your grant submission immediately so that we may review your submission. Please contact grants at wikimedia dot org with any questions. Best, Winifred Olliff (Grants Administrator) talk 18:32, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

To make this easier, I have just copied this information directly on the submission form for you to complete there. The section is entitled "Basic information". Winifred Olliff (Grants Administrator) talk 18:35, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Thank you. --Chorobek (talk) 04:52, 23 March 2013 (UTC)

Done --Chorobek (talk) 06:57, 23 March 2013 (UTC)

Details and other things

I personally believe, that before a movement is formally recognized is better to rent equipment (computers and scanners (11; 12)), because the question always arise to me, who will keep those after the project is completed? Correct me if I'm wrong, but what has to do Wikimania with a digitalization process? Isn't this a digitalization project (which is the idea I got after reading the description of the project), if so, maybe those items should be removed (13), even if they are funded by another institution, because it doesn't match the project description, or goals (at least so far I can understand them). I'm also confused with the for and non-profit status, in the first question it states it is for-profit, then it can provide local proof of nonprofit, which is in the end? Also the total requested does not match the total added in the end: Total project budget = 39550 USD v/s 40300 USD. :) --3BRBS (talk) 22:08, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

1. Equipment. No need to purchase equipment. We show it as our contribution to project. If it is recommended, we can exclude it from budget.
2. For-profit or nonprofit. It is my mistake. I did not read question carefully. Bizdin Muras is non-profit public foundation. I corrected it.
3. Total budget is 39950 USD. I corrected it too.

Thank you for notice. --Chorobek (talk) 02:04, 29 March 2013 (UTC)

1. Equipment: I think it would be better, if you could clarify what is not charged to the grant, and what actually is charged to it. Maybe make to sections in the budget breakdown, so we can see which money goes to where.--3BRBS (talk) 13:18, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

• Wikimania: I still don't understand why Wikimania, even if funded by another institution, forms part of the grant, could you clarify that? --3BRBS (talk) 13:23, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

  That part is indeed not very clear, it seems (reading comments above) that the total of Wikimania participants would be 4. Chorobek, it would indeed help a lot if you could make very clear in the budget lines what are the things that are not part of the grant asked to the Foundation. The difference between the total of 39950 USD total and 27750 USD requested is not clear to me. Thank you! notafish }<';> 09:56, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

Digitization, again

Hi Chorobek, first of all I want to say I am very impressed with the initiative and the project seems to me a valuable one. I used to be a project manager in the National Library of Israel, and deal with many digitization projects and initiatives, which brings me to ask you the following:

• Attempting to create 20,000 new articles is a very ambitious goal. Could you elaborate about the process from Scanning&OCR to an edited Wikipedia article? Are all the articles to be generated this way or only some?

In 2012 we digitized about 14-15 encyclopedias. Average encyclopedia contains about 1000-1200 articles. Generally, most of articles generated from digitization. --Chorobek (talk) 12:49, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

• I know OCR algorithms to be unreliable at times, and it seems to me that it requires hundreds and thousands of man-hours to proof an article so it's in a quality that is good enough to be inserted to Wikipedia. Could you share your estimates of the amount of time it would take?

After OCR recognition text exported to MS Word to eliminate misspelling and edit. We actively use built-in MS tools as find and replace and some macros especially developed for text formatting, create Wikipedia links within text some articles, mark subjects words (for wikibot). Text editing takes main time and 2-3 editors are involved. When contents ready to use, we distribute them between volunteers, who want create articles for Wikipedia. For instance, in 2012 we involved about students for summer internship and they created large quantity of articles. And we use wikibot to export articles from this files into wikipedia as well. We created by wikibot about 10 000 articles from 20 000.
Therefore, I hope, we be able to manage same quantity in this year as well. --Chorobek (talk) 12:49, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

• Even more acute is the issue of copyrights and other intellectual property issues. Are you sure that all IP issues have been resolved? I'm not asking this in context of the grant, I'm merely pointing out that if you're copying a volume of data without explicit rights, you're potentially exposing yourself for legal liability. Please be aware of that.

We signed agreement with National Center of Encyclopedia to use their content for Kyrgyz Wikipedia. In addition, some authors apply us to use their works for Kyrgyz Wikipedia. Because it is easiest way to bring their works for students. Anyway, thank you for warning. --Chorobek (talk) 12:49, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

• Lastly, I saw no mention of volunteers. Do you work with any?

Yes, I mentioned above, they could be involved in final part, after the digitization, only to create articles from ready to use content. But I do not mention them, because I don't know, how many volunteers will involve. Some things not obvious before the start and I prefer do not include them into project. --Chorobek (talk) 12:49, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

Best regards, Ido (a.k.a) NLIGuy (talk) 10:14, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

Thanks --Chorobek (talk) 12:49, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

Support

• After all the questions answered, I have no problems with this grant. Béria Lima ^msg 04:41, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
• It's fine for me. Regards, --ProtoplasmaKid (WM-MX) (talk) 18:15, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
• This is a very complex grant, but after reading it and this talk page a few times I don't see a reason not to support it, other than me having no idea whether the values make sense in their local economy. I must confess I had to look into an atlas to learn where Kyrgyzstan is, but now I'm happy that I learned something =)P Cheers Chorobek! --Solstag (talk) 18:05, 1 April 2013 (UTC)
• Seems the organizers are very committed to pursue their objectives. I'm all for this. Wishing you the best! -- Roel (talk) 04:18, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
• +1 although I am not sure about budget for Wikimania - is it going to be finally paid by Soros Foundation or WMF... Polimerek (talk) 17:16, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

Workshops etc

Hi, I presume there will be only one workshop for each cohort. How long will the workshops be? Who will be teaching? Can we know a little about the training process planned for these workshops?

Workshops designed for 4 hours and consists from three main parts: introduction, exercises and answer for questions.

• Introduction

What is the Wikipedia, short history, main principle, why we should develop Wikipedia in Kyrgyz, basic info about open access knowledge.
Summary time - 30 minutes.

• Execises

Participants given ready to insert articles (5-10, depends on skills).
During 3 hours will do exercises:
- to create new articles ()
- to make references to sources, authors, literature
- create headings
- to link articles
- to include articles into categories
- to make interwiki links
- to use templates
- to insert image

• Answer for questions

Answer for questions about exercises and other related topics.
Summary time - 30 minutes.

• Workshops would provided by manager of project and other experienced editors and administrators.

• Standart program of our trainings (in kyrgyz)

The three-day rally for Kyrgyz WPians: what are the objectives?

• Discuss current problems and issues
• Experience sharing
• Make the acquaintance
• Encourage best editors
• Summarising and planing. For example, for this year we planned try to solve problem with translating and usage terminologies into kyrgyz, develop online spellchecker dictionary and spellchecker plugins (extention) for browsers etc, send best ones to Wikimania. We hope, we will able solve some of them.

Office manager: $150 a month ... is this a part-time position? If so, could we know the equivalent full-time proporation (for all positions, please) ... like 0.3 FTE? Tony (talk) 10:04, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

Office manager not required be in staff. Therefore, we are going to sign contract with office manager as freelancer translator, who works by license and will assist to project manager prepare reports in English (not only)for sponsor, translate manuals. If it was in staff to pay net 150 USD, we should pay 210 USD with all taxation. Generally, office manager salary from 100 to 300 USD (net salary)

Project must has director (manager) in staff. It is required by law. Manager salary included all taxation costs (10% - income tax, 9% - social insurance and 17% from the foundation as employer). Net salary of manager from $700 will $449,4. It's more or less normal salary for project manager. It's near to bottom than top.

• Office manager position is a full time employment.
• Project manager position is a full time employment as well

--Chorobek (talk) 12:46, 1 April 2013 (UTC)

• Chorobek, thanks for your responses. I believe we need to provide better guidance to applicants to elicit this level of detail (particularly concerning employment, finance) in the first place. Just one issue: the workshops appear to start with article creation; could I suggest that this be done last, as the ultimate goal (or not at all in a workshop that lasts only four hours). Please consider the difficulties—technical and in terms of policy compliance—of creating new articles; perhaps one might start with article improvement instead, since I can't imagine the Kyrgyz WP is short of existing articles that desperately need improving. (The English WP sure does have plenty of those.) In starting with existing articles, trainee editors, I believe, can more easily and quickly pick up the structure and rules. Creating from scratch (from a blank sheet) is slow work and heavy teaching. May I also suggest that you have carefully structured material; the only workshop I've attended had a few photocopies of (mostly poor) source material. It was very slow, and the trainees became bored. Sort out photocopies of good sources, and URLs ... give them to the trainees to start with, and let them develop the skills of selecting the most appropriate text, paraphrasing or rewording, and referencing, without the bother of having to find good sources to begin with. Tony (talk) 09:24, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for advice, Tony! I'll consider it. --Chorobek (talk) 15:27, 3 April 2013 (UTC)

No problem. "60-70 USD per person. Plus rent of conference hall 100 USD, + transportation 100 USD. Average cost will about 150 USD per participant." Sounds a bit steep. Kyrgystan has an average per capita income of a bit over US$1000, which is worth roughly US$2400 in terms of local purchasing power. Are hotels, conference rooms, and meals really that expensive? Sounds more like what you'd pay in Berlin. nominal and PPP. Tony (talk) 10:36, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

I understand you. It's confusing. But it is. Renting, hoteling is not so cheap. Let me give you prices we paid for last rally - $45 per night per person. We had this prices thanks to Soros-Kyrgyzstan Foundation. SKF is given special prices, because they organizing a lot of workshops during the year. Plus number of participant was about 40 and tourism season finished.

We planned this workshop in the beginning of project. And we planned it as outside workshop. Summer is a season of tourism and price up, especially weekends, sometimes twice and more. There is no warranty, that you be able find cheap prices for normal hotels. So I put average prices.

Bellow you can find some information about prices:

The Try Korony Hotel, Issyk-Kul, where second rally was conducted

Talisman Village Pension, Issyk-Kul, where first rally was conducted

--Chorobek (talk) 03:16, 6 April 2013 (UTC)

Feedback from WMF

Thanks for this interesting proposal! We are excited about the possibility of funding work in Kyrgyzstan! Before we can make a decision, let me make the following comments. Asaf Bartov (WMF Grants) talk 00:46, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

Clarity on grant budget

As has been commented above, you'll need to be quite explicit about what is to be covered by the grant and what is provided from other sources. A separate table or a color coding would be fine. Asaf Bartov (WMF Grants) talk 00:46, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

Program rules

1. Since the inaugural of the Funds Dissemination Committee (FDC), the Wikimedia Grants Program no longer funds full-time staff. Thus, regardless of the amount of the salary the "project manager" item cannot be considered for funding. Please strike it off or clarify it will be funded from alternative sources, if you'd like to proceed with this application nevertheless. Asaf Bartov (WMF Grants) talk 00:46, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
2. Likewise, leasing dedicated office space is generally not supported by the Wikimedia Grants Program, although some expenses on a shared office space (hubs, co-working spaces) are acceptable. However, if there are no such spaces in Bishkek (are there?), we may be willing to waive this limitation in this case. Asaf Bartov (WMF Grants) talk 00:46, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
3. However, part-time staff or temporary (less than six months) full-time staff may be funded. Such positions, like full-time positions, need to have a clear rationale. Asaf Bartov (WMF Grants) talk 00:46, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

Role of volunteers

Generally, the Wikimedia movement expects labor-intensive content production, such as scanning and proofing OCR results, to be done by volunteers. Whereas scanning requires physical access to books and a scanner, OCRing and proofing can be done digitally, and Wikisource even has specific features to support this work. The planned training events may be good opportunities to train prospective volunteers in using these tools and working with the scans and OCR outputs. Can you reconceive the funded work to only include the initial scanning of the material? Asaf Bartov (WMF Grants) talk 00:46, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

I included all works. Text recognition as well. We provide text to edit and .jpg pictures of pages for editors and volunteers. We plan to execute certain volume of work in certain period. We cant rely only for volunteers. Generally, volunteers involved in creating articles from recognized exts. --Chorobek (talk) 02:56, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

Total size of grant vs. track record

Quite apart from the assessment of each line item, the total amount requested is quite a bit larger than what is usual for a first grant from the Wikimedia Foundation. While we recognize the Bizdin Muras Foundation has received a sizable grant from the Soros Foundation in the past, and have gratefully received a very positive endorsement from the Soros program officer, the Bizdin Muras Foundation is a new potential partner of the Wikimedia Foundation, and we prefer to start a relationship with a more modest grant, of between $5,000 and $10,000. Given that, is it possible to rework this proposal into a proposal that would fit within that scale, for a first grant? Perhaps unlike other Foundations, we have no limitation on consecutive grants, and in fact often give such grants to grantees who have been good partners, so it would be possible consider a larger grant after the conclusion of a smaller first one. Asaf Bartov (WMF Grants) talk 00:46, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

OK. Let us to try rework our proposal. --Chorobek (talk) 03:03, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

Viability of Community after/without funded work

So far, the Kyrgyz Wikipedia has experienced impressive growth thanks to your work and the Soros funding that made it possible. We are concerned about the viability of the Kyrgyz editing community if this grant is not approved, or after the execution of this grant if approved. In your judgment, does the community have a "critical mass" that would persist and grow without the external support of funded work and coordination? Asaf Bartov (WMF Grants) talk 00:46, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

Kyrgyz Wikipedia started 11 years ago. But actually it is growing only last 2 years. Up to 2011 there were only about 1390 articles. Now we formed core group. If we will support wikipedians activity, than core will accumulate new editors. If not, core will stay anyway. Do we have a "critical mass" - not yet. It requires more long time and efforts. Now we are trying get a "critical mass". --Chorobek (talk) 03:16, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

Summary

To be quite clear: the proposal will not be approved as-is. We shall await your responses to the questions and requests above; if the proposal is reworked per these suggestions, we can consider funding it. If it isn't (or you state it cannot meet our expectations), it will not be funded. Asaf Bartov (WMF Grants) talk 00:46, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

OK. We agree. How we should do rework? Could you give us some instructions? --Chorobek (talk) 02:12, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

Supporting WMF's feedback

I agree with all of those points.

It would be really worth marshalling a team of volunteers for the purpose of this application, and if you specified their particular strengths in terms of either content or logistic skills, all the better (it's not necessary to name them, although if anyone agreed, their WP username would be welcome). I'm just thinking of ways in which you might convince the WMF of the fit with its mission statements.

While it's not strictly relevant to your application, could I ask at this stage whether there's any interference by the authorities in terms of content on the Kyrgyz WP? And is neutrality one of the pillars or fundamental policies of the site, and if so, is it implemented well, in your opinion? Tony (talk) 05:56, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

There's not any interference by the authorities. --Chorobek (talk) 03:46, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

I agree in all pints above. My feeling was that the project is good but there is a lot of project management tasks to support volunteers. The question is to know what will happen if this support will finish. --Ilario (talk) 06:43, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

We should confess - development of content in Kyrgyz, Kyrgyz Wikipedia as well, need support. Kyrgyz people still use Russian to search and find information. In my opinion, if we will able to provide "critical mass" of content, than we have a chance to further grow. If there are sufficient number of articles, kyrgyz people can find content in Kyrgyz and will involved into development of Kyrgyz Wikipedia. Therefore, we want to make our effort to try grow a "critical mass". --Chorobek (talk) 03:42, 13 April 2013 (UTC)

Reworked proposal

(Chorobek has submitted a reworked proposal by e-mail, and was not sure how we wanted it on the wiki, so I'm just pasting it below, to keep the discussion public.) Asaf Bartov (WMF Grants) talk 23:50, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

I reworked our proposal. Let me show it in excel file and make some explanations first.

In our case, the most required things is - content digitization. If we will have content to put in base, somehow we can organize trainings and volunteers. If no content - there will no grow, even we provide trainings and stimulation events. Therefore I keep only digitalization. Project manager required by law, so we should keep 50% - employment. And we need accountant services. I cut project period to 8 month. Than our "measures of success" will - 10 000 new articles.

Generally, we will apply to other sources to get funds to cover other activities such as trainings.

Number	Category	Item description	Unit	Number of units	Cost per unit	Total cost	Currency	Notes
2	Digitalization	Digitalization	book	8	500	4000	USD	Expencies for scaninig, recognizing, editing encyclopedias and formating text to export. Works will provided by paid editors. Volunteers will engaged as well. But generally content should be edited with required quality in the given period.
7	Administrative	Project manager	month	8	400	3200	USD	Project manager responsible for succesfully impamentation of project. Will organize involvment of volinteers; organize digitalization proccess; provide PR function and reports for sponsor and fiscals. Part-time employment - 50%.
8	Administrative	Accountant service	month	8	120	960	USD	Accountant service will provided for according to local tax law.
	Total	Total				8160

(end Chorobek's message)

Questions about reworked proposal

1. Despite my comments above, you have reworked the proposal to focus on paid labor of the kind I had indicated we generally do not fund. What is the reason this cannot be done (at a much slower pace, of course) by volunteer labor? We don't need to commit to a deadline here. Why do you? Asaf Bartov (WMF Grants) talk 23:50, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

I have about 4 years experience with digitalization. We cooperated with volunteers too. But I have only 2-3 case, when books taken by volunteers were finished. Because after recognition text in kyrgyz usually has a lot of misspelling. It is quite hard work to find misspellings and make corrections. I know text in Russian has very few mistakes after OCR and it easy to make proofread. But it's not our case. If we will rely only for volunteers, probably interest from editors can be lost. It was not easy to make kick and involve people into wikipedians. Main factor is - the shortage of content in kyrgyz in general. So, we want digitize any useful content for open access. We want to do it in short period, while there is interest from wikipedians. In our case, digitizing is core activity, which must be done. --Chorobek (talk) 22:32, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

1. What is this legal requirement you mention about needing a project manager? If we were to fund, for example, some event, would we be required by Kyrgyz law to hire a project manager? If so, could you provide a citation of such a law? Asaf Bartov (WMF Grants) talk 23:50, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

It will be hard to explain to me in English. Lets try, If there is project financed by grant, we should have agreement/contract. It means we will have reports for tax agencies. Somebody have to be responsible for expenses and reports of project towards tax agencies. Even event, we should have some documents to prove that we receive money for nonprofit activities to not to pay profit tax. And organization should take part in event somehow on payment basis. For example, now we have small grant to develop online orthographic dictionary of kyrgyz language. In spite of expenses needed to pay soft developer and proofreader, I must have salary for 2 month (minimal) too. Otherwise we could have some troubles with reporting towards tax agencies. Maybe, tax agencies not correct for 100%, when they requires it, but we do it. I'm not expert in taxation, I do it as my accountant recommended.

With project or not, actually I spent a lot of time for Kyrgyz Wikipedia providing trainings and presentations. So, if we will have project, my participations will not only for tax reports. --Chorobek (talk) 22:32, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, but I feel I can't comment anymore. With the reduction the project seems fine, and I believe in the problems Chorobek has, but at the same time, it feels not right to not engage at some concrete level with volunteers, so I'm in the middle of two positions. At the same time, as stated by Asaf, "the proposal [...] focus on paid labor [...] I had indicated we generally do not fund." I believe it would be necesary to clear out this issue with the WMF first, to give a further comment.--3BRBS (talk) 22:38, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

I'm also waiting for an update on this. NLIGuy (talk) 19:56, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

Please update grant submission

Hello, Chorobek: Please add the information from your reworked proposal to the grant submission page so that we may proceed with considering it in its reworked form. Please let us know if you have any questions. Best, Winifred Olliff (Grants Administrator) talk 16:19, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Lets take timeout. May be we will make new submission. Thanks all for comments.--Chorobek (talk) 13:37, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

Hello, Chorobek: I'm not sure I understand. Would you like to withdraw this proposal from consideration? We're still happy to consider it in its reworked form if you update the submission page. Best, Winifred Olliff (Grants Administrator) talk 23:09, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

Hello, Chorobek: We haven't heard back from you in a while. We will withdraw this request on your behalf if you don't contact us before 11 June UTC. Regards, Winifred Olliff (Grants Administrator) talk 00:08, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

We are withdrawing this request now on behalf of the grantee, who has not responded since 24 May. Please contact us, Chorobek, if you need to reopen the request. Cheers, Winifred Olliff (Grants Administrator) talk 23:24, 12 June 2013 (UTC)