Wikivoyage/Lounge

This is the Wikivoyage Lounge on the Wikimedia Meta-Wiki. Here we discuss the Wikivoyage project across all its language versions. For old discussions, see the archive.

Monthly reports from each edition of Wikivoyage can be found on the Summit page.

這裡是維基導遊多語言休息室。我們在這裡能使用不同語言討論在維基導遊計畫中遇到的一些問題。 每個月將會記錄在峰會上。

Travel topic skeleton (en)Edit

What's up with that disclaimer at the top, "X is a travel topic"?

Any attempt to use that line gets deleted by administrators and there's no sign that that line exists in other existing travel topics, but any attempt to update the documentation to reflect that this is no longer part of the travel topic skeleton also gets reverted on sight - by another administrator. Why?

I recommend starting a discussion at voy:Wikivoyage talk:Quick travel topic article template with a {{ping}} to the admin(s) in question. I doubt that anybody monitors this page on Meta. --Nelson Ricardo 2500 (talk) 21:15, 25 August 2021 (UTC)
@Nelson Ricardo 2500: I monitor this page every so couple of days, but not everyday.
To the Host IP, you do realise that you can't just unilaterally change the format, right? Have you looked at the other formats before? u|Ikan Kekek reverted that edit, because literally, what they said in the edit summary. No, all other travel topic has that inappropriate hat note, and yes, as I repeat you can't unilaterally make changes on formats that have been since the days of Wikitravel. What more, it could have been justified if you had been at least known to the community, or at least sparked up a discussion. But did you do that, and that is no. You need to stop throwing aspersions when you were literally told what you did wasn't the right thing. SHB2000 (talk | contibs) 06:06, 29 August 2021 (UTC)
@SHB2000, We might want to update voy:Wikivoyage:Quick travel topic article template accordingly. Nelson Ricardo 2500 (talk) 19:30, 29 August 2021 (UTC)
Unfortunately, this is a user who is deliberately locking his talk page so that no one may contact him on-wiki. And yes, if the documentation doesn't match actual usage, it does need to be corrected.
Yeah, did you read the header of my talk page? And yes, that user is me. Follow the instructions there and you should end up going to voy:en:User talk:SHB2000/strip/IP talk page. It's protected from harassment and threats by a WMF banned user. Also, please sign your posts with 4 tildes (~~~~) SHB2000 (talk | contibs) 00:27, 1 September 2021 (UTC)
You're trying to send me to an unmonitored user talk subpage. That's a little like setting out a dustbin with "suggestion box" marked on the side. I see that the original error (multiple pieces of documentation are telling users to create topics with " Travel topic is a travel topic. " when neither the text of existing WV topics nor the opinions of whatever admins spoke up support the inclusion of this line) remains. I'm not going from forum to forum to explain and re-explain the issue - you're aware of the matter, either fix it or don't fix it. — The preceding unsigned comment was added by 204.237.50.3 (talk) 23:59, 7 September 2021 (UTC)
So you mean "leave my talk open to anons and get threats?". Yeah, reconsider that because I watch both pages. And yes, I'm aware of the matter, but you are not correct here.
I'm not going to have a go at you here, but change your attitude. You're thinking you know everything but based on your ongoing comments, it seems you don't. And you seem to think you're not at fault here.
And to the original thread, no. The lede is supposed to be changed as soon as you create it. Common sense would prevail that you replace that right after when you insert that. Now perhaps look at the itinerary and event skeletons. They have the same thing as travel topics.
Also, sign your messages. I've told you this before. SHB2000 (talk | contibs) 08:55, 12 September 2021 (UTC)
Um, excuse me? "No, all other travel topic has that inappropriate hat note, and yes, as I repeat you can't unilaterally make changes on formats that have been since the days of Wikitravel." makes no sense. If the existing usage is that the hat note shouldn't be there, whomever was reverting the documentation to stick the hatnote back in was the one making the unilateral change. voy:Wikivoyage:Quick travel topic article template and other pages like it are documentation. If following this documentation puts the user in the cross-hairs of admins because the documentation is wrong, fix the documentation so that it matches whatever current status-quo usage WV admins will actually permit.
Changes with a profound impact should enjoy broad support from their communities, not just a handful of users, and certainly no changes should be made unilaterally. Communication is a key aspect of wiki collaboration, so locking one's own talk page to deliberately complicate communication is a strong indicator that a user doesn't have the constructive mindset required for a wiki. ArticCynda (talk)
Maybe if you weren't so salty about your ban, then maybe you'd have figured out that the page was protected to prevent vandalism against a long-term vandal that's WMF-banned. Furthermore, I clearly had an alternate talk page so please keep your nonsensial reply to yourself. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs) 09:06, 25 July 2022 (UTC)
Odd that this supposedly WMF-banned vandal only appears to be interested in you, no one else here has problems with that on our respective talk pages. Have you considered that your own behaviour could be attracting these "problems"? It's not the first time other users have pointed out your questionable edit history and, occasionally, less than constructive attitude. If you make it a habit to randomly delete community-contributed articles you don't like with little or no discussion, then it shouldn't be a surprise that you're not making many friends in a community powered project. ArticCynda (talk)
My own behaviour? This WMF-banned vandal has been threatening me (both on wiki and in emails) for more than a year now, and they've not just been threatening me but anyone who reverts their edits. Again, you're still very salty about your contributions under your IP sockpuppets being deleted (well, you shouldn't have in the first place), and completely missed my point. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs) 08:09, 27 July 2022 (UTC)
User:SHB2000, reviewing your recent edits, it doesn't take long to find examples of unconstructive behaviour. Look at this discussion for example which illustrates persistent refusal to engage in a constructive dialogue with other members of the community. In that discussion, 3 different editors have voiced 3 different opinions which are all points valid to the discussion, and you dismissed all of them because they don't align with your own point of view. On a wiki, we address each other's concerns and comments to reach a consensus, and what you're often doing is quite the opposite of that. Additionally, 2 of the users in the discussion have linked policy pages to support their point of view, which deserve to be addressed. It's okay to have strong opinions, but that doesn't mean you can make unilateral decisions by disregarding valid opinions of community members. On a collaborative wiki, this is considered a serious attitude problem. ArticCynda (talk)
Disruptive sockpuppetry and block evasion aren't allowed on en.voy. Period. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs) 09:37, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
I agree with you, however, there is no evidence of sockpuppetry or block evasion, and the comments added by these users were not disruptive in any way. Let's look at the facts here:
  1. Each of the 3 users can be identified by a unique address, referred to as an IP address, which can be looked up with publicly available tools. They geolocate to Switzerland, Belgium, and England respectively. This indicates it is very unlikely to be the same user, because a single user would have IP addresses geolocating to the same city or at least the same country.
  2. None of the 3 users have edits to any of the targeted articles in their edit history, so there is unlikely to be a conflict of interest here.
  3. At Wikimedia we always assume good faith, unless there is hard evidence to prove the contrary. And these all look like good faith edits to me. Voicing an opinion on a talk page that is different from yours is not "disruptive".
Without evidence supporting your point of view, it should not be a surprise that the Wikivoyage community regards your wild accusations merely as an excuse not to engage in a meaningful dialogue with other community members about subjects that require debate and consensus. Which, as others have previously pointed out to you, is problematic behaviour on a community driven project. ArticCynda (talk)
No-one apart from you has questioned my "problematic behaviour" on en.voy. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs) 12:37, 8 August 2022 (UTC)
You're joking, right? In this thread alone already there are 2 different contributors who have pointed out issues with your attitude. ArticCynda (talk) 01:27, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
Yeah only you two, one of which has been community banned since 2018. Totally... SHB2000 (talk | contribs) 12:21, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

"Wikivoyage has disappeared from DuckDuckGo" (and Bing)Edit

Article here: [1]. Discussion here: [2]. I think this applies to every language version, not just English. Does anyone know anything more about this? 70.175.192.217 02:30, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

经多次尝试,我发现无法在bing上复现,我需要贴一张图吗? SD hehua (talk) 09:55, 2 November 2021 (UTC)
I just did a Duckduckgo search on "Wikivoyage" and got it as the first three results. 2603:7000:3E40:799B:412A:5005:AEBB:B8B7 20:06, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
Same here, can't reproduce the problem. ArticCynda (talk)

Wy/hbs (bosansko-hrvatsko-crnogorsko-srpski jezik)Edit

Just to inform @ALL that Wikivoyage HBS (bosansko-hrvatsko-crnogorsko-srpski) is proposed https://w.wiki/4h3Z --Zblace (talk) 11:13, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Incubator instance is aproved and now running...Helping hands and minds are appreciated. --Zblace (talk) 07:13, 11 April 2022 (UTC)
We are currently running extra action for CEE Spring 2022 - you are more than welcome to join us, especially but not only if you understand HBS languages! --Zblace (talk) 07:38, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

Importante message from WikiSPEdit

21:28, 23 March 2022 (UTC)

External copyvio siteEdit

Hi, Wikivoyagers.

Just as an FYI, I found a mirror site of Wikivoyage a few days ago: Traveler and Free. This one is a mirror site of all of our language editions, which updates in real time.

It's not copyleft-compliant: there's no credit given to WV, and each page has a fraudulent copyright symbol on it. The site's terms of service are an interesting read too.

There seems to be real people behind it, rather than bots, as the same site hosts a blog that appears to be original content not found elsewhere on the Web.

On Monday, I sent an email to the address listed on their contact page requesting they comply with copyleft or delete their stolen content. I have also notified Wikimedia Legal.

I will let you know if there are any developments. In the meantime, if you have any suggestions, or wish to contact Legal yourself in order to make this more of a priority for them, please be my guest.

Thanks, ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 11:07, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

At first it looks like an ordinary mirror, but I then turned off my ad blocker as experiment, and noticed they are inserting advertisements all over the articles -- including between listings. So it appears they're not only mirroring the content but also trying to earn some cash with it.
I'm rather curious how they implement the real-time mirroring on a technical level without access to any APIs, though. ArticCynda (talk) 21:18, 21 July 2022 (UTC)
Unlike the Travel Wiki that shall not be named, the ads didn't seem to cause any noticeable lag.
This feels like something lawyers should be all over, but who knows how many of these cases they get sent in a week? --ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 08:14, 22 July 2022 (UTC)
The ad placement is rather obnoxious though, inserted in the middle between listings etc. Not at all pleasantly styled.
I agree that this would probably be low-hanging fruit for copyright lawyers, though on the other hand, because the content is an exact copy of Wikivoyage, it is unlikely such copyvio sites will ever reach useful google search rankings. It doesn't pose an actual threat to Wikivoyage. ArticCynda (talk)
I don't have an ad-blocker but I couldn't see any ads. To ArticCynda, regarding the content is an exact copy of Wikivoyage, it is unlikely such copyvio sites will ever reach useful google search rankings. It doesn't pose an actual threat to Wikivoyage. A copyvio is a copyvio, whether it's in part or in full. It's a violation of Wikimedia's copyleft license and unless they give proper attribution, it violates the CC-BY SA license, remaining as a copyvio. --SHB2000 (talk | contribs) 09:10, 25 July 2022 (UTC)
I'm aware it's copyvio; nobody is disputing that User:SHB2000. Rather what I'm saying is that tackling it shouldn't be on our priority list. Before worrying about other copycat sites, I prefer to focus efforts on our own travel guide. It's much more important that we spend limited human resources on improving Wikivoyage, add new articles and content, and prevent vandals from deleting new content -- the latter has grown increasingly problematic in recent months. ArticCynda (talk)
"and prevent vandals from deleting new content -- the latter has grown increasingly problematic in recent months." You're talking about us deleting articles you created under your IP sockpuppets (that are banned from editing), right? --SHB2000 (talk | contribs) 21:33, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
Let's not get diverted, please. Copyright issues are primarily up to the legal department to sort out, given that T&F haven't responded to my email yet and probably won't at all at this stage. There isn't an awful lot the rest of us can do, apart from supporting legal (paid employees of Wikimedia, so not taking volunteers' time away from WV) where possible and making our interest in seeking a resolution known to them. Unfortunately, I haven't received any update from them apart from the initial acknowledgment of receipt.--ThunderingTyphoons! (talk) 09:08, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
I do hope they'll eventually get to it. Unfortunately, the WMF also cannot do much since they don't own the copyright but given they cribbed an entire Wikimedia project off, we'll have to see if they're going to take any action against Traveler and Free. SHB2000 (talk | contribs) 06:50, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
Since the copy appears to be real-time, I suspect they may be retrieving content from Wikivoyage directly rather than hosting a copy. In that case, no copyrighted materials exist on their servers, which makes a case against copyright infringement more difficult from a legal point of view. ArticCynda (talk)
Whoa, you're right. I'm curious about how the retrieving works.Veracious (talk) 03:16, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

alternative-indy culture?Edit

Anyone knows of good guide to alternative-indy culture in any Wikivoyage language? --Zblace (talk) 20:00, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

It sounds like you're looking for a travel topic. I can't think of one on en.voy, off hand. Maybe you'd like to start one? What do you mean by alternative-indy culture (associated with indy rock?), and which area of the world would you like to cover? Ikan Kekek (talk) 09:13, 22 July 2022 (UTC)
@Ikan Kekek my plan is to cover clubs (different styles) and socio-cultural centers that are non (or even anti) commercial in Croatia. I have friend who is interested in doing it for Slovenia also. We would appreciate to see something similar done elsewhere. --Zblace (talk) 06:29, 24 July 2022 (UTC)

incubator:Incubator:Community Portal#Remove the GeoCrumbs extension from IncubatorEdit

There's a proposal to remove the GeoCrumbs from Incubator, to which GeoCrumbs is used on Wikivoyages and Incubator has Wikivoyage test projects, do we have opinions on it? Liuxinyu970226 (talk) 03:28, 28 August 2022 (UTC)

Isn't the date of the update automatic? FR: La date de la mise à jour n'est elle pas automatique ?Edit

Isn't the date of the update automatic? Hello, I have just made my first contributions to Wikivoyage but the date of the last update of the geographical areas I worked on (Saly, Ngaparou, Touba) have not changed (it is the date of the 2018 update that always appears). Can I have an answer to this please? Thank you. FR: Bonjour, je viens de faire mes premières contributions dans Wikivoyage mais la date de la dernière mise à jour des zones géographiques sur lesquelles j'ai travaillé (Saly, Ngaparou, Touba) n'ont pas changé (c'est la date de la mise à jour de 2018 qui apparait toujours). Puis je avoir une explication par rapport à cela s'il vous plait ? Merci. Ourytima (talk) 22:08, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

Open letter to WMF to improve Wikimedia CommonsEdit

There is an open letter to WMF about Wikimedia Commons. If you are interested (or frustrated about commons as I am) take a look: Think big - open letter about Wikimedia Commons -- DerFussi 11:25, 12 October 2022 (UTC)

Android apps that violate copyleftEdit

Hi all,

Somewhat similar to the "Traveler and Free" case mentioned earlier, I came across a whole set of apps which seem to be replicating content from Wikivoyage and charging money in order to access the same. The app appears to be developed by some "MAPS.ME (CYPRUS) LTD" and has no attribution to Wikivoyage. You could find the app list of apps in the following link: [play store link].

I notified Wikimedia legal but thought of notifying the same here just in case. -- Kaartic [talk] 17:50, 16 October 2022 (UTC)

Incorrect speedy taggingEdit

Can someone stop Onwa from incorrectly speedy tagging voy:es:Wikiviajes:GUS2Wiki? (I assume they will revert me again soon) The reason they give is "Página incomprensible y en un idioma distinto al del proyecto." (Incomprehensible page and in a language other than the project), but the page is in Spanish and perfectly comprehensible.Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 14:33, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

A little rant about the design of WikivoyageEdit

(Longtime WMF lurker here, too lazy to create an account.)

Let me say that I have no problem at all with the content of Wikivoyage itself. What I DO have a problem with is the design used (at least on the English version).

The Main Page… While the other Wikimedia sites (at least in my native English) use simple tables that display well on slower connections, the English Wikivoyage main page is a “dynamic” mess that reeks of dated-as-heck Web2.5 tropes. It would feel right at home on some Fandom wiki about a Netflix show. The immediate predecessor of Wikivoyage, Wikitravel, may have been managed by a company even more corrupt than Fandom/Wikia at their worst, that tried to sue Wikimedia over CC-licensed content, but at least they knew what a wiki main page should look like: https://web.archive.org/web/20100830065847/http://wikitravel.org/en/Main_Page If I ever became a Wikivoyage admin, the first thing I would do, is try to bring back some variant of the Main Page design Wikitravel used to use.

The logo… the initial logo (the globe of arrows) was kinda decent, but got thrown out because Wikimedia received a legal threat from some sort of UN trademark agency, and was replaced with a Dadaist abomination that has a vaguely totalitarian shape, and looks horribly dated now that the 2010s are over. If I had a say in it, I would bring back the original logo with the globe of arrows, but recoloured in shades of blue to match Wikibooks, Wikisource, Wikiquote, and Wikiversity, and with the wordmark in a small-caps Linux Libertine font like that used by Wikipedia and Wikisource. 2001:569:BF37:5300:E83F:529:1C41:D24B 02:02, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

2001:569:BF37:5300:E83F:529:1C41:D24B, you don't need to be an admin to propose changes. Admins have no special powers regarding this. You only need to convince the community to vote in favor of the change. As each language variant manages their own main page and logo, you should make your proposal on one language variant.
Personally I have no strong opinion on this.Alexis Jazz (talk or ping me) 09:16, 22 October 2022 (UTC)