Wikinews/Future Talk/Log

Sunday, July 10, 2005 21:00 UTC
Topic for #wikinewsWikines Future Talk (set by user NGerdaBot)
NGerda: there we go
Xirzon: yay for typos
CGorman: nes?
NGerda: WNFT has now officially commenced
Amgine: Sort of. See
Topic for #wikinewsWikinews Future Talk (set by user CraigSpurrier)
CGorman: and hes our most active editor… and he can'r spell news…
NGerdaBot: hey!
CGorman: can'r->cant
Xirzon: hello everybody and thanks for coming. this is an unmoderated talk so I won't push any specific agenda
CGorman: cant->can't
CGorman: good
Topic for #wikinewsWikinews Future Talk - Hosted by Eloquence (set by user NGerdaBot)
CGorman: nice
Xirzon: stop it 
NGerda: done now 
Topic for #wikinewsWikinews Future Talk (set by user Xirzon)
Xirzon: please do raise any issues and we'll debate them as a group. the page on meta has some ideas
NGerda: ill keep an eye on RC
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NGerda: ok
NGerda: kool
NGerda: let's start off on a more toned-down topic
NGerda: first up: Main Page
Amgine: <laughs>
moapala: it's 21:00 UTC
CraigSpurrier: Main Page, toned-down topic! 
CGorman: First off, everyone the plural of euro is just euro… damn nickj beatr m e
Xirzon: main page looks nice
NGerda: my question: As Wikinews expands and produces more articles every day, the Main Page shouldn't display every single article produced
NGerda: it does look nice 
NGerda: im referring more to Template:Latest news
CGorman: yep love the ->
Amgine: Is this a current, extant problem?
NGerda: no
NGerda: but it's THE FUTURE
CGorman: Future amgine ^
Xirzon: NGerda: maybe
CGorman: but amgines right - we shouldnt worry till we hit 40 a day
NGerda: hmm
Xirzon: the layout produced by Ilya Haykinson sort of addresses this
IlyaHaykinson: well, that point was my motivation for modeling my sandbox page afteyr the BBC
NGerda: we should still talk, tho
NGerda: yes
Amgine: So, what kinds of processes should be in place for people to solve it when it becomes a problem?
NGerda: modelling after other succesful sites is a good idea
CraigSpurrier: I think once we fill the space we are using for the several days news with one days worth then it is time to make a new main page
NGerda: we should talk about what we envision it to be
RossKoepke: Agreed
Xirzon: I think it would be nice to try to get some more structured output out of DPL though
NGerda: true
Xirzon: e.g. evaluate the OR flag and indicate next to a story whether it is OR
RossKoepke: well
Xirzon: then we could deprecate the secondary column
CraigSpurrier: extra leads might be nice, like es.wikinews does
NGerda: automate OR?
RossKoepke: one thing that strikes me as obvious eventually might be a customizable main page
NGerda: it should be organized by section
CGorman: yep… sure thats difficult to do thought
RossKoepke: definitely diffulcult
Pechorin: hello
NGerda: and we can specify its localness by its categories
CGorman: hey
NGerda: Hi P!
Xirzon: hi Pechorin!
RossKoepke: but I mean, seems like people should be able to pick categories and whatnot and get the news from that
eSBeK: hi Pechorin
RossKoepke: we definitely need a better category system
NGerda: we should go down to city level
CGorman: yeah like yahoo
RossKoepke: (also like google news)
CGorman: down to suburban level
RossKoepke: did anyone ever use Excite?
CGorman: no
Amgine: Yes, Ross
NGerda: so, from now on should we use city tags?
IlyaHaykinson: well, what i proposed is that the category system grow only as fast as there are people to support it.
Xirzon: customizability is currently simply a matter of knowing how to use DPL and templates
RossKoepke: Amgine: I was thinking something like that
Xirzon: then you can customize as much as you want
IlyaHaykinson: if there's nobody willing to maintain the city level, use the country level.
NGerda: hmm
Xirzon: and using this system, we can offer people a number of main page layouts to choose from
Amgine: <nod> That might be doable under the current DPL, but it would be difficult to maintain.
IlyaHaykinson: if you want to permanently maintain things at the city level, add that level.
NGerda: can it be automatically maintained?
Xirzon: one thing to keep in mind as a general caveat
CGorman: for example when writing Irish stories I cat down to county level but not for English stories
Amgine: NGerda: Not the leads.
NGerda: i dont mean the leads
CGorman: yes Erik?
NGerda: i mean the city categories
RossKoepke: IlyaHaykinson: interesting and probably effective methodology to categories
CGorman: oh
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CraigSpurrier: Hello Alex____
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AutisticPsycho: sooo
Alex____: hello
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Amgine: IlyaHaykinson: did the redirect element get added to the DPL?
AutisticPsycho: what'd i miss
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NGerda: so…..
CraigSpurrier: Hello ang2
kim_bruning: nuffin!
IlyaHaykinson: Amgine: not in production.
NGerda: <twiddles thumbs>
RossKoepke: AutisticPsycho:
Amgine: <nod>
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AutisticPsycho: do to an hour long broadband/tv/phone outage
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AutisticPsycho: fucking comcast
AutisticPsycho: >
NGerda: Hi Angela!
Angela: hi
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Amgine: Because I was looking at your test page and there are now 2700 some articles
Xirzon: gah, dsl disconnect, sorry
Xirzon: what I was trying to say earlier:
AutisticPsycho: heh
RossKoepke: Xirzon: logbot still working?
Xirzon: yep
NGerda: yes
Xirzon: the more DPL we use, the more wary we have to be of caching issues
NGerda: hmm
AutisticPsycho: Xirzon, lol at least you didn't have an hourlong net/phone/tv outage
Xirzon: I'm currently running a cronjob that purges the Main Page every hour
Xirzon: but no other pages on wn
NGerda: can the cahing issue be fixed with the next release of MW?
Pechorin: how bad does the caching isssue get?
Xirzon: anonymous users *will* get copies from squid
IlyaHaykinson: well, i have been meaning to look at the proposal of tagging pages with expiry patterns
Xirzon: which may be days old or worse
Xirzon: IlyaHaykinson: that would help
Pechorin: if a person comes to wikinews infrequently, is there a chance that they will see really old stuff?
IlyaHaykinson: i.e. "when this page is changed, purge the cache for [This List of pages]"
NGerda: can ther caching issue be solved?
Xirzon: NGerda: possibly
NGerda: ok
NGerda: good 
RossKoepke: it would definitely be something for the Research program to look at…wikinews needs a modified version of DPLs
NGerda: hmm
Xirzon: it's a matter of disabling caching entirely for pages where DPL is used IMHO
Xirzon: there is
Xirzon: but the method described doesn't seem to work properly
Xirzon: (thanks Angela )
Amgine: RossKoepke: IlyaHaykinson maintains the DPL
RossKoepke: Amgine: so IlyaHaykinson can update the DPL code?
Amgine: <nod> And does.
NGerda: not necessarily
NGerda: oh
IlyaHaykinson: how does purge work?
NGerda: he does?
Amgine: Current live version is 1.5
RossKoepke: Amgine: do the changes have to be filtered through brion?
Xirzon: DPL was specifically written for wikinews, Ross
Xirzon: so, we are very much interested in adapting it further to our needs
RossKoepke: oh, cool
Xirzon: it's not enabled on any other wikimedia wiki, fwiw
Amgine: Well, you could ask Ilya, he's here.
RossKoepke: well we've seen a number of issues with DPLs
NGerda: ah i see
RossKoepke: 1) changing order based on last edit (we should be able to specify sort criteria)
RossKoepke: 2) caching
NGerda: Ross, 1's been fixed
NGerda: with 1.5
Xirzon: caching is really the main issue
RossKoepke: RossKoepke was unaware.
Xirzon: one other item would be customizability of the output
Xirzon: adding dates, for one thing
NGerda: NGerda wasn't aware that RossKoepke wasn't aware
CGorman: Damn you nick beat me to it 
NGerda: yes, X
Amgine: RossKoepke:
Xirzon: and maybe as noted earlier, if category=Y, add text Z for things like OR
NGerda: yesss
RossKoepke: definitely
Amgine: I think Xirzon/Angela just answered the caching question, but the orderby is alreadypart of the extension.
Xirzon: btw, all of you guys are smart enough to work on mediawiki
Xirzon: especially on extension code
Xirzon: which is very separate
Xirzon: so please do take a look
NGerda: i dont know any code other than HTML and Wiki
CGorman: ditto
Xirzon: google PHP tutorial, there's tons of stuff - and the documetation at is very decent
Xirzon: setting up mediawiki even under windows isn't hard
Xirzon: if you use XAMPP
Xirzon: which is a very decent mysql apache php installer
IlyaHaykinson: Xirzon: it's not as much a question of "smart enough" -- more a question of knowing the mediawiki code well, and being able to get by the picky developers.
Xirzon: then installing mediawiki is a matter of a few minutes
Xirzon: IlyaHaykinson: don't give them excuses 
Amgine: Some drawbacks to DPL exist, such as the one Xirzon pointed out.
IlyaHaykinson: Xirzon: oh. darn. right. 
CraigSpurrier: is there a list of easyish jobs that are needed doing on mediawiki. I am a good php devloper but I am a bit busy 
RossKoepke: I'm keeping *basic* notes here
NGerda: good job, Ross
Amgine: Another is that dependence on DPL also leaves articles unlinked in the database, so they all tend to be orphans.
Xirzon: CraigSpurrier: has some up-to-date ideas small and large
Xirzon: bugzilla also does in the category enhancement
CraigSpurrier: ok cool thanks
Xirzon: or bugfix, if that's your thing
RossKoepke: Amgine: whats the prob with orphans?
Pechorin: Just to point out, I think when the page name is changed (i.e. page is moved), DPL will register that new article as the last one
RossKoepke: Imean, we can find them still
Amgine: There are many tools used to find potential problems on mediawiki sites.
Amgine: You can find all the DPL articles, but articles which are not categorized in a form you expect will not be found.
Amgine: But they could be found using Orphan pages….
Amgine: if they aren't lost in a haystack of articles which are properly categorized using DPL \
Xirzon: notcategoryublished + categoryublished should catch everything
Xirzon: what we need to do is move the non-articles out of the main namespace
RossKoepke: speaking of which, we could use a more standardized way of categorizing articles to make sure each article is categorized under all applicable categories
Xirzon: so we can deprecate Template:Develop
Amgine: <nod> But until some changes are included, it will also find all the redirects and so on.
Amgine: I believe Ilya has the changes coded though.
Pechorin: RossKoepke, for example?
RossKoepke: (continuing…) right now we have something like 806 categories. Many of which are made specifically for infoboxes
RossKoepke: Pechorin: for example, the latest Nigerian Stoning story didn't have a Niger category tag on it
NGerda: btw, we should get rid of Category:Infobox
RossKoepke: which is important for things like COTW
NGerda: it shows up on any page with that infobox
Amgine: <nod @ NGerda>
RossKoepke: NGerda: I made that, sorry. I wanted to be able to find all the infoboxes in existence.
AutisticPsycho: yes
AutisticPsycho: and nothin on it
Pechorin: RossKoepke, I thought that was Nigeria?
RossKoepke: …shit.
NGerda: Ros,, I made the ssame mistake, too 
RossKoepke: I thought Niger == Nigeria in different eras
RossKoepke: like Congo = Zaire = Republic of Congo
NGerda: with CAtetgory:Template
Amgine: Niger=river, I think.
NGerda: yup
RossKoepke: err
Pechorin: Amgine, Niger is also a country… north of Nigeria I think
NGerda: Nigerianeople
RossKoepke: COTW had Niger listed as a country
Amgine: <nod>
Amgine: Thanks Pechorin.
AutisticPsycho: no its a country
AutisticPsycho: just smaller
Pechorin: it's about the same size 
AutisticPsycho: Niger is a landlocked sub-Saharan country in Western Africa situated north of Nigeria and Benin, east of Mali, and south of Algeria and Libya, named after the Niger river. The capital city is Niamey.
Pechorin: but nevermind Niger vs Nigeria
RossKoepke: so a Nigerian is someone from *either* niger or nigeria?
Pechorin: RossKoepke, unless you want to be very polically incorrect
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CraigSpurrier: Hello Wikinewsie319
Pechorin: but anyway, back on topic folks
NGerda: let's see here…
AutisticPsycho: Its adjective form is Nigerien ("nee-ZHAIR-ee-an"), which should not be confused with Nigerian ("nigh-JEER-ee-an") for Nigeria.
RossKoepke: thanks
AutisticPsycho: no prob
AutisticPsycho: ok
•: AutisticPsycho bangs gavel
AutisticPsycho: order
AutisticPsycho: back to the topic
Amgine: future…
NGerda: yes, Amgine, thankyou
CGorman: just back… emmm i've missed nothin!
Xirzon: heh
NGerda: …just Nigeria vs. Niger!
NGerda: :
RossKoepke: so we *were* tlaking about DPLs
CGorman: did none of you do geography in school?
Xirzon: shall I take over, guys? 
RossKoepke: anyone have anything more on that?
CGorman: yes
CGorman: take over erik
NGerda: yeah
RossKoepke: go ahead Moller
NGerda: i got nothin
Amgine: Okay, categories need to be reconsidered some how.
Xirzon: OK, here's a topic for you 
Xirzon: Inputbox preload.
NGerda: ok
NGerda: ooh
CGorman: as I was sayin - Euro=euro not euros!
NGerda: i dunno
AutisticPsycho: yes
AutisticPsycho: i was going to say
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RossKoepke: Amgine: well come back to that
AutisticPsycho: How about inputboxes now
Xirzon: Now, the issue here is, do we want to use this at all, and if so, how much information do we want to preload?
NGerda: what do you mean by "preload", Elo?
AutisticPsycho: well…
Xirzon: my stance is: yes, but minimize and keep templates out of it if at all possible
CraigSpurrier: I like the input box but I have two issues with it. The firsat is how much is perloaded it should only have date and dev tag
Xirzon: NGerda: the text you see in the edit screen when you click the "create an article" button
AutisticPsycho: are we already using it for the create article box on the main page?
Amgine: I think it would be very useful to have a collection of preloads; but on the main page it should be blank.
AutisticPsycho: arent we already using it for the create article box on the main page?
Xirzon: CraigSpurrier: I wouldn't mind a == Sources == heading but I'm not sure about the {{source}} template
Amgine: It would be really nice to have a couple of "standard" article forms from the workspace.
NGerda: hmm
Xirzon: as I posted on Template talk:New page
Pechorin: I go with Amgine on this… leave it very blank on the main page… and have a cheat sheet for people who know what they are doing
Xirzon: I do believe it might make sense
CraigSpurrier: The other issue is I think it should be moved main page to a page where we can explain the basics of editing before dumping the person into an editing page
Xirzon: to use July 10, 2005Category:July 10, 2005
NGerda: what other uses would it have?
CGorman: hmmm… im gettin by find with cut and paste from code.txt in my documents!
Xirzon: instead of
Xirzon: it's cleaner and gives you an example of categories in use at the same time
RossKoepke: I like usuing the {{source}} template on it
Amgine: NGerda: We should have infobox format, and project page formats
Xirzon: another option would be
Xirzon: when we deprecate Template:Develop
Xirzon: to merge and Template:Publish
NGerda: Amgine, I still dont understand
RossKoepke: we're deprecating Template:Develop
RossKoepke: ?
Xirzon: e.g. put Template:Publish at the top
CraigSpurrier: that would be great
RossKoepke: would we also put Template:Develop ?
NGerda: Dont we want there to be a develop flag for readers?
Pechorin: Xirzon, that's probably not an option… because people still want to see the date quick, even if it never is published
Xirzon: when you're done, which inserts the date and adds categoryublished and category:date
Amgine: NGerda: There are several "types" of things which get done regularly. Using Ross's form of infobox is one of them.
Xirzon: Pechorin: but what date is it?
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Xirzon: if you use this system, at least it's clear that the date always refers to the date of publication
CraigSpurrier: many times an older story will have an older date and will get added to an older date page when it does get published
Xirzon: exactly
CraigSpurrier: hello nan
Pechorin: Xirzon, it does, but I can click on news that have not been published (Well, can I click? and there will be no date on it
Amgine: <nod> Although there was a fairly large discussion, the consensus of which was not to use UTC for publication dates.
Xirzon: Pechorin: hence it would make sense to have a timestamp display in the DPL
RossKoepke: if anyone wants to help…
Xirzon: Amgine: there seems to be no consistency whatsoever atm
Pechorin: Xirzon, it would still be very usefull to have it in the actual page
Xirzon: Pechorin: maybe. my main concern is keeping templates away from newbies
Xirzon: I think they are not very friendly
Amgine: <nod> On that I agree. The decision at the time was to respect the original author's date choice.
Pechorin: Xirzon, yes… but {{publis|date}} is a template 
RossKoepke: Pechorin: it wouldn't be preloaded
Xirzon: Pechorin: yes, but publication is often done by someone other than the original author anyway
Amgine: Pechorin: I think he's suggesting adding the date category to the {{publish}} template, which is the most common method of publication right now.
Xirzon: and I think newbies would understand that publication is somewhat magical
Pechorin: only thing that I am saying is that date should appear before it's published
Pechorin: one way or another
RossKoepke: man wtf I got templates instantly. It's really not that hard for new guys. (Of course I also know how databases and PHP work…but still)
Xirzon: Pechorin: we do have dates in the history's a matter of displaying them
Xirzon: RossKoepke: curly braces scare people
Pechorin: Xirzon, I know.. but on all websites, etc.. news start with a date
Amgine: RossKoepke: I've had to add date templates to articles from people who have been on Wikinews more than 6 months.
•: AutisticPsycho countinues to sit this out, since techinal stuff isn't his bag
CGorman: ditto
Pechorin: so, we should simply encourage people to have a date on the top of the page to start with, that's it
Pechorin: very much like we do now
Xirzon: hmz
RossKoepke: erg
Xirzon: let's get agreement to a simpler change first
AutisticPsycho: yes simply has a date is fine….
Xirzon: do we want the {{source}} template preloaded?
NGerda: yes
CraigSpurrier: no
Xirzon: personally I think that it might overwhelm a newbie
NGerda: for newbs
Pechorin: Xirzon, hold on.. do we wan't anything preloaded 
AutisticPsycho: hmmm
NGerda: i dunnn
NGerda: o
Xirzon: Pechorin: well, if we go from top to bottom maybe nothing will be left at the end 
Amgine: I think there are options to have preload, and not preload both, aren't there?
RossKoepke: yeah maybe we should only preload the title that they enter
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RossKoepke: and a "type rough article text here and include any useful sources - rest of story will be filled out by other editors just like you"
CraigSpurrier: once we are able to stop using the dev tag we should stop preloading
Topic for #wikinewsWikinews Future Talk: Preloading templates (set by user NGerdaBot)
Xirzon: I think we should continue to preload the date if we do want it there
Pechorin: CraigSpurrier, true… having Template:Develop does put us in an ugly situation
•: Xirzon will miss the Template:Develop boxes 
NGerda: but for casual readers, it may encourage them to contribute
NGerda: that's the advantage
RossKoepke: so maybe agree to keep Template:Develop} on preload until we deprecate it then remove it?
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NGerda: for the average Joe and Jane
NGerda: ok
Amgine: I think Template:Develop should be an option, especially for people who want their article worked on?
Xirzon: RossKoepke: yea
NGerda: Amgine, yes
AutisticPsycho: yes i agree with that Amgine
NGerda: Amgine, for now, it's required for Dev. stoeis
Xirzon: what does that mean, "want their article worked on"?
CraigSpurrier: or the Template:Rfc tag
Pechorin: Template:Develop should be a tag you can stick on your article… but not a part of publishing process
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Xirzon: perhaps a separate template could be used for that
Xirzon: Template:Imdoneherepleasehelpmeout
Amgine: I mean, I personally sometimes have only time to do a half-assed job on an article.
NGerda: Amgine's saying he wants Template:Develop to be optional
CraigSpurrier: Hello Wikinewsie876
Amgine: <grin>
Pechorin: Xirzon, something like that, exactly
Amgine: I've said that all along, actually, but neither here nor there.
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CraigSpurrier: Hello Ausir
Ausir: hi
CGorman: hey
Pechorin: in fact, when people started using Template:Develop I thought it was only a cry for help from other editors
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Amgine: <waves @ Ausir>
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Xirzon: ok
Xirzon: so our agreement is that we want to deprecate the function of Template:Develop currentlyv irc: Wikinewsie926 has joined Wikinews
eSBeK: re
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Xirzon: to put a story in the list of developing stories
NGerda: no
Xirzon: but we do want a "request for help" sort of tag?
CraigSpurrier: Hello Wikinewsie926
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Amgine: <hmms>
NGerda: I dont agree to dessimate Template:Develop
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Dan100|moooonkey: dessimate?
RossKoepke: Xirzon: we have RFC
NGerda: it serves many useful purposes
Xirzon: NGerda: what exactly is its purpose other than putting clipart on the page ?
RossKoepke: that seems smart
CraigSpurrier: Hello Wikinewsie126
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Xirzon: hi Edbrown05
RossKoepke: if people would pay attention to them
RossKoepke: we need a better newsroom page
CraigSpurrier: Hello Edbrown05
Amgine: Hi Edbrown05
Edbrown05: hello all
NGerda: to let casual reader know that they can contribute
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Xirzon: RossKoepke: I'd be in favor of merging newsroom and workspace - in my experience too many community portals don'T work well
NGerda: we get gthousands of visits per day, yet we only have a handful of editors
Topic for #wikinewsWikinews Future Talk | Preloading templates | {{Develop}} tag use (set by user NGerdaBot)
Amgine: One request though, NGerda: can we put the template *below* the sources, etc.?
NGerda: sure 
AutisticPsycho: yes
Amgine: It's just jarring for me above them.
NGerda: that's how ive done it for the last week
AutisticPsycho: there isnt even link on the page for a portal
AutisticPsycho: so im all huh?
Amgine: Portal?
AutisticPsycho: community portal
Amgine: Oh, yah… that was removed…
AutisticPsycho: heh
Amgine: It's nice to know about though; many good links.
RossKoepke: frankly we need a better newsroom
CraigSpurrier: I like newsroom and workspace being seperate they both have diffrent uses
Amgine: Wikinews:Newsroom
RossKoepke: that helps us track articles progress
Pechorin: so… did we come to any conclusions with inputbox thingy?
RossKoepke: not like the rediculous system we had earlier
Edbrown05: seems hard to navigate newsroom… so much whitespace
Xirzon: Pechorin: I don't see a consensus either way
RossKoepke: but something that at least has a box for RFC articles
RossKoepke: or maybe "needs to be done by Date/Time" boxes
Amgine: So, should we call a question then?
Xirzon: call a question?
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NGerda: Hi Angela!
CraigSpurrier: Hello Angela
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Angela: hi, again 
Amgine: Make a proposal, simple statement, and ask for agreement/disagreement.
NGerda: ok
NGerda: shoot
Amgine: Should we continue to use inpuboxes with the current templates on the main page?
Pechorin: Amgine, perhaps we should do what's popular on wikipedia now… make a proposal, with 3 (or so) options, with everybody having their first, second and third vote
Pechorin: or just first and second
IlyaHaykinson: perhaps the merged newsroom/workspace can be in two columns -- one column with newsroom-like static links and info, and the other column with current articles etc?
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NGerda: Amgine, continue as is for now, experiment on alternatives
RossKoepke: we need a new page for submitting articles
AutisticPsycho: good idea IlyaHaykinson
Amgine: <nod> A second option: have the main page inputbox be blank, with a selection of templates available from the workspace.
RossKoepke: (cont.) that has text boxes for each source
Xirzon: continue use but reduce complexity
Edbrown05: there is no more index box to quickly navigate newsroom
Xirzon: I think we should preload in a way that is friendly to newbies, which I do not see as contradictory
CraigSpurrier: IlyaHaykinson, sounds good
Pechorin: Xirzon, well… which way is friendly to newbies? 
Xirzon: avoid instruction creep but add elements which are essential
Xirzon: Pechorin: exactly
RossKoepke: Maybe instead of new articles having a standard edit page..they should have a "Title" box; "Article Text" box, and a bunch of boxes for "Sources"
RossKoepke: that way they dont have to deal with templates
NGerda: hmm
NGerda: that would be confusing
RossKoepke: not for new users
NGerda: to merge into one article
Amgine: <hmms> Xirzon: I haven't looked through your code closely enough; could a complex form like that be built?
Pechorin: RossKoepke, that's way too guiding and limiting
Xirzon: Amgine: no
Amgine: <nod> Okay.
Xirzon: my suggestion is this
Xirzon: we should first make an effort
AutisticPsycho: <--- I just noticed this article was abandoned a month ago
Xirzon: to move towards making Template:Develop optional
Xirzon: this I think we can all agree on
Xirzon: and it will need concentrated energy
NGerda: let's experiment and keep things how they are
RossKoepke: why not deprecate it and use RFC?
RossKoepke: what would develop be used for?
Amgine: <grins @ NGerda> Where have I heard that before?
Xirzon: RossKoepke: what exactly will be the fate of develop should be decided after we make it optional
Xirzon: now, as for preloading
Xirzon: I am in favor of removing Template:Source now
NGerda: ok
NGerda: X
Xirzon: but I am happy to discuss this on template_talk:new_page
AutisticPsycho: im not….
NGerda: im fine with removing source
RossKoepke: in favor, but I would like it to preload a note about including relevant sources
IlyaHaykinson: i kind of like the structure that source provides
NGerda: we can add it later
Xirzon: yes, Template:Source is nice
Pechorin: Xirzon, you mean, not prealoading Template:Source or sacking it?
IlyaHaykinson: perhaps newbies don't have to put Template:Source in there
NGerda: Ilya
Edbrown05: how would be get new contribution to cite some sources?
AutisticPsycho: IlyaHaykinson: same
Xirzon: but I think it's too much to expect newbies to grasp its usage simply because we put it in a textarea
NGerda: they would just include a link
AutisticPsycho: Edbrown05, exactly
IlyaHaykinson: so newbies can put in * http://wherever, and before edited, someone would change that to Template:Source
Edbrown05: if we remove Template:Source
RossKoepke: again, preloading a message like "type rough article text here and include relevant sources - rest of story will be filled out by other editors just like you" seems appropriate
Angela: you could use the source header like ==sources== without the template
Xirzon: so I'd say let's try to teach it to them the wiki way
Xirzon: Angela: yes
Dan100|moooonkey: Ilya - but who's going to do that?
Dan100|moooonkey: I can't be arsed, don't tell me you are
Angela: then people would know to put them, but not get scared by {{{templates}}}
Edbrown05: newbies don't get that {{source}} template, that's obvious
Amgine: Dan100: I've been known to do it, as have quite a few of the rest.
Dan100|moooonkey: yes they do
RossKoepke: I like Angela's idea
Amgine: <nod>
Xirzon: I'm willing to look into a toolbar button to add a ready-made Template:Source item
AutisticPsycho: I like Ilya's
Dan100|moooonkey: just today we've had IPs filling them in right straight from the get go
Xirzon: i.e. you click the button, it gives you Template:Source with params
Edbrown05: really Dan100 !
Amgine: Just today we've had IP's publishing them with out, too.
Xirzon: that would IMHO be better than putting it in the preload
Dan100|moooonkey: You could write a FF extension that fills in the source url and title, possibly
Dan100|moooonkey: if anyone is feeling up to it
AutisticPsycho: not me
•: AutisticPsycho couldn't code if the North Koreans military wanted me to
•: RossKoepke is stepping out for a bit, someone please keep updated with anything extremely notably important
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AutisticPsycho: ill try RossKoepke
IlyaHaykinson: Xirzon: i think your suggestion of putting into the toolbar is the best thing ever.
IlyaHaykinson: i was thinking along those lines earlier…
AutisticPsycho: Agreed!
IlyaHaykinson: what we basically need is a structured _editor_ given a blank slate of an article.
NGerda: the toolbar needs to be more relevent, though
CraigSpurrier: that would be great
Xirzon: thanks ilya - yes, toolbar customization could apply to other areas as well
Pechorin: though… if we ever change templates, it will be pain in the ass to change the toolbars
Xirzon: though careful not to overdo it
Amgine: <nod> Does anyone here know the javascript?
AutisticPsycho: I was also thinking that we should put the Wikipedia link in the toolbar
Xirzon: Amgine: I wrote it
AutisticPsycho: or at least up top
Amgine: <cools> Good!
AutisticPsycho: becuase I got the feeling, no one will notice the w: link down below
Dan100|moooonkey: I think CG got bored Xirzon: or more accurately, I copied it from various places and fixed the bugs to make it nice  NGerda: it doesnt work for me, either
Xirzon: NGerda: are you on safari by any chance?
NGerda: yes
AutisticPsycho: Select text and click w to link to Wikipedia (requires JavaScript). <--- we should make that a toolbar button or move up top
Amgine: <chuckles>
Xirzon: NGerda: unfortunately khtml doesn't support cursor selections
NGerda: oh
Amgine: Yet…
Xirzon: hence the toolbar in safari and other low end browsers just gives you a help box
NGerda: yup
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Xirzon: which I am considering to kill because I think it might confuse people more than it helps
Wikinewsie207: hey
CraigSpurrier: Hello Wikinewsie207
NGerda: What are you calling "low end"??!?!?  
Amgine: Hello Wikinewsie207!
Xirzon: erm, sorry about that 
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AutisticPsycho: lol
Amgine: Okay, have we reached a consensus?
NGerda: that what?
AutisticPsycho: blame the years of Windows domination
AutisticPsycho: Amgine: maybe?
AutisticPsycho: i dunoo
AutisticPsycho: dunno*
Amgine: Simplified preload - no templates (possibly )?
Pechorin: sorry guys, I hate to do this.. but would somebody repeat the consensus we should've reached in a paragraph? 
NGerda: hmm
AutisticPsycho: yeah that sounds good
Pechorin: Amgine, I would go with that
RossKoepke: I second that Pechorin
Amgine: Use == Sources==, and Xirzon will add Template:Sources button
NGerda: ok
CraigSpurrier: yes
Xirzon: erm, sort of look into it kinda sorta thing
RossKoepke: That's it?
IlyaHaykinson: and what about Category:... links at the bottom of the new article template?
Amgine: Does that work for you Dan100?
IlyaHaykinson: i suggest not using those.
CraigSpurrier: I agree
Pechorin: Amgine, I would actually go without == sources == but with explanation, though I am flexible
Xirzon: we keep Template:Develop as long as we need it
Amgine: <nod> Yes, Ilya, that might be helpful, but not until the DPL is updated?
Xirzon: but work towards making it optional
NGerda: hmm
IlyaHaykinson: Amgine: updated w/o redirects you mean?
Amgine: <nod>
Pechorin: well, we can start working on how to sack Template:Develop right now
Amgine: <is nervously eyeing the /SpecialDPLTest page…>
Xirzon: Pechorin: portal namespace
Xirzon: what should it be called?
Xirzon: Portal:?
IlyaHaykinson: i just finished testing that. Xirzon, if i check in, can you deploy.
Xirzon: Section:?
Edbrown05: so contributors are going to drop in stories with no sources?
Pechorin: what's the portal namespace?
Xirzon: IlyaHaykinson: testing what exactly?
IlyaHaykinson: Xirzon: not including redirects in DPL if using notcategoryublished
Xirzon: Pechorin: put pages like South America there so they're not counted as articles, and excluded from DPL
Pechorin: Edbrown05, no… they can still include sources, there'll be the toolbar stuff
Xirzon: oh right
IlyaHaykinson: I suggest that Portal:Africa etc works really well.
Pechorin: I'm fine with Portal:
Xirzon: IlyaHaykinson: I'm not very awake anymore
Amgine: What about Main Page?
NGerda: Portal: works for me
IlyaHaykinson: redirect the main page to Portal:Home
IlyaHaykinson: ?
NGerda: no, Ilya
NGerda: That doesn't work
Amgine: <nod> That's what I was thinking. Or at least add Categoryublished?
Amgine: It would, NGerda.
NGerda: how?
Xirzon: the link to the main page is actually arbitrary
Xirzon: mediawiki namespace somewhere
Pechorin: why not? Portal:Home would be good
NGerda: it's not the same as Main Page
Dan100|moooonkey: so we're making Template:Source optional?
Edbrown05: toolbar button sounds cool… what if the story has no published sources? like 'Original reporting' that should be in the toolbar
Xirzon: so we can call it whatever we want
Dan100|moooonkey: Didn't we all just agree to use it on the water cooler?
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NGerda: yes
Xirzon: Dan100|moooonkey: talk has been about not preloading it into the blank box
IlyaHaykinson: i would say that source is not optional, but that it's not in the preload template
IlyaHaykinson: i think that was the agreement
Amgine: <nod>
Dan100|moooonkey: whhhyyyy?
Amgine: That's what I understood.
Pechorin: Dan100|moooonkey, it's as optional as it was so far… I mean, nobody will delete the article if you don't use them, but you should
•: AutisticPsycho waves to catch some attention
Amgine: <looks @ AutisticPsycho>
AutisticPsycho: I was also thinking that we should put the Wikipedia (ie W:) link in the toolbar
Dan100|moooonkey: seriously newbies aren't retards, they can actually cope with things like url=, pub=
Xirzon: Dan100|moooonkey: it's not the kind of thing you can learn from just glancing over it in an edit box
AutisticPsycho: or at least up top
AutisticPsycho: becuase I got the feeling, no one will notice the w: link down below
AutisticPsycho: well the newbies
Xirzon: Dan100|moooonkey: yes, but once you think "oh there's no author" and delete author=, it's already screwed up
Dan100|moooonkey: I expect people look at finished articles before they write their own, and pick it up from there
Xirzon: and you get a scary {{{author}}} mess
Amgine: <nod> That's something we can try to do, AutisticPsycho. Should we ask Xirzon to build a development page on Wikinews?
Amgine: Then we could list the things we'd like him to add to the toolbar?>
Xirzon: heh
Dan100|moooonkey: In the last few days, I've seen probably a half a dozen new names (or IP numbers) at the start of Histories
Xirzon: how about you make me some nice buttons?
Dan100|moooonkey: I haven't noticed any screw up Template:Source
Edbrown05: Template:Source does mess up easy… some info is better than none for sources
AutisticPsycho: Yes I believe we should do that
Xirzon: I see many empty or half-empty source tags .. I think the results are not very newbie friendly
Amgine: Dan100: Just a moment, I have one for you.
AutisticPsycho: Xirzon: dont look at me… I don't have a pretty button maker
AutisticPsycho: lol
Dan100|moooonkey: ah, evidence? 
Topic for #wikinewsWikinews Future Talk | Preload templates | {{Source}} tag use (set by user NGerdaBot)
Xirzon: use for new buttons
Amgine: Chilling Effect on Journalism which eventually became Newspaper refuses to utilize leaked documents in article was initially created (and published)
Amgine: I think we have a few graphics-minded people like NGerda who can come up with a button.
Edbrown05: that story was exactly on my mind
Dan100|moooonkey: Amgine, you've just proved my point
Dan100|moooonkey: he wasn't trying to use Template:Source
AutisticPsycho: Xirzon: the only problem
AutisticPsycho: I have paint
Amgine: What, that people will mess up the use of Template:Source?
AutisticPsycho: and a image converter program
AutisticPsycho: that only converts to gif and jpg
Amgine: That's like his 5th or 6th edit.
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Amgine: <nod to NGerda for fixing that article>
Xirzon: AutisticPsycho: get irfanview
CraigSpurrier: Hello Wikinewsie098
NGerda: thank RossKoepke, too 
Wikinewsie098: does anyone here know where to go to find the list of the dead or survivors of the london bombings?!?!?!
Edbrown05: I'm concerned NGerda hustled a little too quickly to create order to that article
Dan100|moooonkey: 098 - no such list
RossKoepke: uhm…you're welcome! (not sure what I'm being thanked for though)
Edbrown05: and yeah, I went in right behind that
NGerda: Edbrowm05, Ross was with me, too
NGerda: Ross, the newspaper article
Wikinewsie098: i really need to know
Dan100|moooonkey: there won't be one until the coroner is satisfied with formal ID'ing, which will take some time
Xirzon: Wikinews098: best call one of the hotlines
Xirzon: Wikinews098: * Casualty Hotline (Metropolitan Police): 0870 156 6344 (UK) +44 870 156 6344 (International)
Dan100|moooonkey: why do you ask, 098?
Wikinewsie098: i'm freaking out here… i know people who live really close to the sites of the bombings and haven't heard from them since!!!
NGerda: Xirs=zon, is it too much to ask to put "ie" at the end of Wikinews??!!?? 
Amgine: I think I mentioned on meta an idea: that people avoid fixing or editing new articles until the original editor takes a break?
Wikinewsie098: thank you!!!
Dan100|moooonkey: DONT that unless you have VERY good reasons to
Dan100|moooonkey: dont call that
Xirzon: NGerda: heh
IlyaHaykinson: i'm sure it's fine to call now, though?
Pechorin: Amgine, shouldn't that go without saying?
IlyaHaykinson: it's been several days.
Dan100|moooonkey: yeah, you're probably right actually Ilya
Wikinewsie098: aight well thanx anyways
Xirzon: Wikinews098: do call if you can't reach a friend or relative otherwise
Dan100|moooonkey: I'm sure your friends are fine
NGerda: Ross, get on SubEtha
Wikinewsie098: i think so too or at least i hope so
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RossKoepke: NGerda: I've been on all day!
NGerda: oh
NGerda: srry
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kim_bruning: wikinews_log, OUCHIES!
kim_bruning: wikinews_log, have you tried visiting their homes?
Xirzon: erm..
RossKoepke: hahahaha
Xirzon: you're talking a) to a bot, b) to a person who has already left
kim_bruning: ouc
NGerda: kim, you're talking to a computer…
kim_bruning: typo
AutisticPsycho: lol
Dan100|moooonkey: they're gone, Kim
kim_bruning: NO i see what happened 
AutisticPsycho: hehe
AutisticPsycho: i was like
Pechorin: ok anyway
kim_bruning: I typed their nick, and xchat autocompleted to the wrong nick 
kim_bruning: that was funny 
AutisticPsycho: wait…. uhhh
Pechorin: we really shoudl've done this in #wikinews-en 
Xirzon: yes
Xirzon: now back to ..
Xirzon: the FTURE!"§"
AutisticPsycho: ZOMG
Pechorin: (ha ha)
RossKoepke: Xirzon: the FTURE!"ß" incompatible encoding
AutisticPsycho: lol
AutisticPsycho: *dramatic music*
Xirzon: ok
•: AutisticPsycho brings in John Williams
kim_bruning: at least now I'm not the only person who makes wierd typos then 
Xirzon: sources template .. hmm
Amgine: <chuckles>
RossKoepke: Xirzon: onto OR or Notability?
Xirzon: RossKoepke: I don't want to overrule dan100's concerns
Pechorin: ok.. didn't we all agree that inputbox will generate (almost) empty page?
RossKoepke: yeah
Xirzon: Pechorin: we agreed to gradually reduce its contents
Pechorin: gradually?
Xirzon: we can't remove Template:Develop until we have properly migrated it
Pechorin: ok
RossKoepke: see #Conclusion
Amgine: conclusion? to WN gabfests? I won't hear of it!
Amgine: <jesting>
Edbrown05: I can't code crap, but I can complain, I'm not againt text input boxes for say Headline|Story|Text|Sources|Categories
NGerda: Amgine, obviously you haven't seen the link
Xirzon: btw, other editions using the infobox are seriously getting instruction creep in the preload
kim_bruning: actually
kim_bruning: I might have a slight request for xirzon, that'd apply for all wikimedia sites…
Xirzon: e.g.
Amgine: That was why the pattern people pointed out they should never be allowed in wiki.
Xirzon: kim_bruning: no, I'm not going to add a "We love kim" button to the site footer
Edbrown05: Headline|Story|Text|Sources|Categories
Edbrown05: Headline|Story|Text|Sources|Categories
Edbrown05: so say you type a headline and press 'Submit" and you get fields for
Edbrown05: oops 
Xirzon: Edbrown05: I can't follow you
Amgine: The complete article form concept.
Amgine: Those 5 fields.
Xirzon: maybe reconsider that idea when we have wikidata
Edbrown05: I believe so… can a form be create with diferent field boxed to fill out with…
Amgine: <considers that in suprise> Hadn't thought of that.
Edbrown05: Headline|Story|Text|Sources|Categories
Amgine: Not currently, Edbrown05.
Edbrown05: thx Amgine, that answers that
IlyaHaykinson: it could be a Special: page to do this….
Amgine: But it's something to keep in mind, as Xirzon just pointed out.

Meeting is still in session