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 * _sj_ changes topic to 'Next global Wikimania chat : now!  np : http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2006/Program#Program |  http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2006 | http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2006/Planning (and talk pages) | Wikimania 2005 presentations : http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2005_Presentations[23|17:02] <_sj_> short agenda : http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2006/Planning#Wed_Nov_23.2C_2200_UTC
 <_sj_> so, program goals : this is a pretty open item
 <ChrisBradley> SECURITY for the FREE WORLD.
 <Austin> Ambitious, but let's start smaller.
 <ChrisBradley> sorry about the caps
 <_sj_> what would people like to see /in a program/ to make a wikimania great event?
 <_sj_> not just goals for the [free or unfree] world :)
 <brassratgirl> chris: don't you mean *rocking* in the free world? 
 <ChrisBradley> Debian Etch completed
 <mysekurity> how bout a rock star?
 <mysekurity> or some kind of concert?
 <mysekurity> sorry...
 <ChrisBradley> I write music - but I have no gear
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 <ChrisBradley> My music is Creative Commons.
 <cormaggio> For the program, i'd like to see a local chapters info session
 <ChrisBradley> I'd be more than willing to laptop it out.
 <mysekurity> that'd be interesting
 <mysekurity> yeah, here in boston, there's a CC music/sound thing
 <mysekurity> lemme find the link
 <ChrisBradley> My server is up and secure at http://www.noisecontrolpub.com -
 <nichtich> answer to sjs question: techical stuff, community stuff, new/interesting wik[mp]edia projects, politics and related projects
 <Austin> Cormac: you mean, a public event presenting information about them?
 <ChrisBradley> Here in Niagara Falls, NY - When you go there - You come here
 <brassratgirl> cormaggio: that sounds good
 <mysekurity> http://www.opsound.org/
 <cormaggio> chapters are really spreading now and i think they're a great outreach of wikimedia
 <await> _sj_ - I would like to see education (at all levels) more closely tied to Wikipedia. 
 <mysekurity> agreed with nichtich
 <mysekurity> await: a la wikiversity?
 <ChrisBradley> Dude - opsound looks like the next wheel.
 <cormaggio> Austin> yes, but also a way of each one learning from the others
 <mysekurity> eh?
 <avar> boo @ wikiversity
 <mysekurity> ChrisBradley: "the next wheel"?
 <Austin> Last year we had an interchapter meeting.
 <mysekurity> agreed with avar
 <Austin> I'm not sure how productive it was.
 <await> yes - but I'd also like to see academic journals licensed in a compatible way so that excerpts from wikipedia could appear in journal articles.   
 <cormaggio> ah, but it was private
 <ChrisBradley> I have knowledge of EPS - Ensoniq Sequencing - Sampling - and Advanced Digital Delay Techniques.
 <Austin> Right, hence my question.  :)
 <ChrisBradley> Sample Loops
 <Sunir> _sj_, what I found the most interesting last time was the sociological stuff.
 <cormaggio> :-)
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 <_sj_> politics, hmm
 <mysekurity> they could create a wp theme song!
 <_sj_> (re: nichtich's list)
 <ChrisBradley> I don't have the EPS anymore
 <brassratgirl> sunir: like research-oriented talks, or?
 <ChrisBradley> a Korg Triton Extreme is on my wishlist
 <cormaggio> Hi Sunir, I agree
 <brian0918> await - I think we need a way to pull in professors and other educators to start working on Wikipedia first
 <mysekurity> :)
 <Austin> I'm with Sunir on that, personally.
 <ChrisBradley> I played with the sequencer at Guitar Center and I like it
 <Sunir> _sj_, what I found the least interesting were very inner-sanctum conversations about running Wikipedia
 <await> mysekurity - I'd also like to see scientific lab notebooks using mediawiki (and people at http://freebiology.org and http://openwetware.org are using the software in this way.) 
 <mysekurity> agreed with brian
 <ChrisBradley> It has direct to DVD saves.
 <_sj_> sociologiy is definitely exciting.
 <Sunir> brassratgirl, yes/no. research, but not reading a paper
 <mysekurity> await: hmmm, interesting
 <_sj_> and statistical research... two of the biggest sources of wiki-presentatoins at other events.
 <Sunir> papers you can read. I don't want to see a presentation that reads a paper to me.
 <ChrisBradley> mysekurity have you ever heard of AES?
 <await> brian0918 - yes - we are teaching a class at Harvard using mediawiki 
 <Sunir> i liked how at Wikimania people brought papers forward to demonstrate issues within the community that in Q&A people tried to resolve.
 <mysekurity> more along the lines of a powerpoint than a paper reading?
 <_sj_> project and chapter information : can those sessions be run in such a way that even sunir finds them interesting?
 <Sunir> _sj_, well, I'm not a wikipedian.
 <mysekurity> ChrisBradley: no, but I've worked with Fruityloops, Reason, ACID, Wavelab, et. al
 <Sunir> I think they are important.
 <await> brian0918 - the outcome could be an academic publication. (Maybe even Nature...) 
 <Sunir> but I can only represent other wiki folk.
 <await> lots of publicity for wikipedia
 <cormaggio> chapters would be fascinating for all - I think
 <ChrisBradley> mysekurity AES is Hard Disc Encryption. Its Security
 <ChrisBradley> for Data
 <mysekurity> hmm
 <nichtich> Maybe its better not to focus on scientific reserach (although I like it) 
 <Austin> And not Wikimania-related in any way.
 <_sj_> mysekurity: you can work with chrisbradley on the theme song.  or the theme song countdown contest.
 <mysekurity> lemme wiki that
 <mysekurity> sure! contests abound!
 <ChrisBradley> I will need gear
 <mysekurity> i dunno how useful a theme song would be, but I'm open to the idea
 <_sj_> await: perhaps making that kind of mediawiki use as one case in a panel on MW users?
 <Austin> Yes, it's a shame last year's media contest was almost entirely visual.
 <ChrisBradley> I also recommend enlisting #e-unit
 <_sj_> mediawiki in general would be a suitable topic
 <Sunir> nichtich, I think scientific research is useful
 <ChrisBradley> or rather #unit-e
 <ChrisBradley> Sorry for the wrong channel
 <await> _sj_ -- i think a panel on education might be more interesting?
 <nichtich> austin: last year's media contest was not organised enough before
 <await> or a track... 
 <mysekurity> like g-unit?
 <Sunir> I just liked how the scientific presentations were very short so people could respond.
 <ChrisBradley> They are Creative Commons artists
 <ChrisBradley> Yep
 <_sj_> austin : only photos, really; not even video.
 <ChrisBradley> They write Trance
 <mysekurity> ooh gotcha
 <mysekurity> i have a couple friends who do too
 <Sunir> at WikiSym 2006, we're thinking of keeping paper presentations down to five minutes.
 <Austin> There were a few neat videos and animations.
 <Austin> But yes, mostly photos.
 <Sunir> the posters were good
 <mysekurity> yeah
 <cormaggio> await> an education track is proposed at the moment
 <Sunir> leaving them up was a great idea
 <ChrisBradley> mysekurity - since we will be working together - I will send you two channel invites ok?
 <Sunir> aye, education is a key track. 
 <mysekurity> sure
 <mysekurity> I'm not too good of a composer
 <cormaggio> incorporating wikiversityorwhateveritscalled
 <await> cormaggio - link? 
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 <_sj_> brian: as for pulling in profs and educators to work on wikipedia, do you think there's enough interest to have a short track on that?
 <cormaggio> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2006/Program#Program
 <nichtich> Sunir: I hope WikiSym 2006 will be in Europa
 <_sj_> ditto to await
 <Austin> Could the compo discussion please move elsewhere, so we can keep track of the program discussion without excessively taxing our brains?
 <brassratgirl> sj: if you make it profs, educators and librarians, sure :) 
 <mysekurity> Austin: done
 <Austin> Thank you.  :)
 <PatrickD_> nichtich: no big change for that
 <mysekurity> no problemo
 <_sj_> if we're going to get academics-who-dont-use-wikipedia to come talk about it, of consider being pulled in, this would be a good venue.
 <mysekurity> nice thing about Boston area is there's no shortage of academic types
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 <Sunir> nichtich, we're looking at Denmark for wikisym 2006, but don't hold your breath.
 <brian0918> short track?
 <_sj_> brian: well, track at least.
 <_sj_> some tracks may have more sessions than others; unless there is exactly one track per room
 <Sunir> one issue to resolve with bringing in academics is that normal contributors to wikipedia find it hard to relate, and vice versa.
 <PatrickD_> sunir: oh kewl
 <_sj_> sunir: true.
 <mysekurity> agreed with sunir:
 <Austin> Keep in mind that there's widespread concern in the community that WM06 is in danger of becomming an "academic conference," rather than a community shindig.
 <Sunir> having a forum that forcibly mixes the two, or simplifies the academic stuff for the non-academics is a good idea
 <_sj_> a lot of people say they find wikipedia hard to edit
 <mysekurity> Austin: it needs to be both
 <_sj_> or the community unwelcoming
 <Austin> This was one of the most common arguments against Boston, in fact.
 <Austin> mysek: as it was last year.
 <nichtich> We neet to focus and weight the program - Science is not the main issue imho
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 <cormaggio> question: what will a track '''be''' exactly?
 <Betsy_Devine> sorry, fell asleep
 <Sunir> just change the format that academics present
 <brian0918> sj, i'm not sure that the people who complain are the people who we're actually trying to pull in
 <_sj_> austin: right.
 <brian0918> i know that reversions of valid additions do occur, but i'm not aware that they are rampant
 <nichtich> cormaggio: thats what we are trying to find out at the moment
 <Sunir> e.g. academics 'pitch' their research, and go away with X community members to find out how to apply the research to improving Wikipedia
 <mysekurity> yeah, we don't want to be /anti-elitist/
 <Sunir> and then they report back at the end of the day
 <cormaggio> ok nichtich
 <_sj_> perhaps creating an academic track would help?
 <Sunir> i think that would be a big disaster
 <Sunir> no one goes to academic tracks.
 <cormaggio> i'm just wondering if there will be overlap between sessions meaning you miss something vital..
 <Sunir> not even academics
 <Betsy_Devine> Or a "theoretical" track?
 <Austin> Sunir has a point.
 <Austin> But it may be necessary anyway.
 <Austin> Wikimedia in Academia
 <Sunir> I'm very against the 'read my paper for 30 minutes' sessions. 
 <brian0918> ditto that :D
 <Sunir> hell, everyone is.
 <Austin> Oh, but sometimes they have pretty slides too.
 <mysekurity> agreed completely
 <Sunir> they universally are loathed as bad.
 <brian0918> the problem is that this is often the case with people speaking in a second language
 <mysekurity> what's the ediquet on powerpoint?
 <_sj_> brian: you may be right.  I don't know who anyone is trying to 'pull in', though people sometimes talk in general terms about getting experts involved with editing.
 <Austin> Please use it, please make your slides informative.
 <mysekurity> sure
 <Betsy_Devine> I'm hoping to talk about "reputation systems" (stuff like Slashdot karma & eBay feedback)
 <brian0918> i've found taht the less content per slide on a powerpoint, the better
 <mysekurity> are we more trying to attract editors or readers? academics or causal users?
 <_sj_> so what do we mean when talking about tracks?
 <nichtich> I don't see the point of tracks. Can we agree on event types (e.g. Workshop, Presentation, short presentation, expert-talk...) and *define* them?
 <mysekurity> Betsy_Devine: yes!
 <Austin> We're trying to bring the community together, first and foremost.
 <Austin> Then bring them to everyone else.
 <brian0918> well, given jimbos recent remarks, i'd say we should be attracting academics
 <mysekurity> sure
 <mysekurity> of course
 <Betsy_Devine> mysekurity, thx
 <_sj_> I'm thinking along the lines of "defining a group of similarly-themed topics, which should generally not be scheduled  in two rooms same time" 
 <mysekurity> Brian: Yeah (to both)
 <_sj_> with the idea that some people will want to attend an entire track.
 <brian0918> sj, i agree with that
 <Austin> As with last year's format.
 <Austin> I've heard others proposed, though.
 <mysekurity> I wasn't there, so I can't really comment on that, but it sounds like it was a good idea
 <ChrisBradley> I am honored to compose your theme
 <mysekurity> (YAY!)
 <ChrisBradley> Anyone that can recommend and supply studio time is great in my book.
 <Sunir> one thing wikimania needs is a state of affairs from the various arms of WMF so everyone can get on the same page
 <Betsy_Devine> Maybe some sessions could use the unconference format--that is, a discussion leader instead of a speaker, with the audience as experts being consulted
 <await> Austin - "trying to bring the community together" - agreed. In particular I thought we are trying to attract an International audience.
 <Sunir> each project should report their status in 10-15 minutes
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 <ChrisBradley> Well - I think I have some ideas
 <mysekurity> yeah
 <Austin> await: that's one of the top concerns, yeah.
 <brian0918> sunir, that sounds like a good idea
 <cormaggio> so, do we identify themes (ie tracks) before or after the call for papers?
 <mysekurity> less like a conference and more like a get-together
 <ChrisBradley> Ever hear of an old techno track named Nymphomania? 
 <nichtich> ok with tracks. But we cannot define track now but only topics we would like and presentation types we want submissions to fit into
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 <_sj_> sunir: collective reports, in person, would be cool.
 <Austin> await: being hosted at Harvard/MIT brings with it a certain stigma to some, which we have to fight.
 <brian0918> cormaggio, while it would be easier to do it before, it might be better to do it after
 <brian0918> rather than force people to talk about a given topic
 <Sunir> how many WMF projects are there now?
 <ChrisBradley> I bet I could dig it up and do some work with some of the sounds from it to make Wikimania
 <brian0918> so that they don't define their talk based on a 1-word category
 <_sj_> nichtich : if we have specific topics we would really like, and want to make sure we have submissions in, we can monitor how each (potential) track is filling up;
 <_sj_> have someone overseeing each track
 <_sj_> (and sending out new calls for submissions if needed)
 <ChrisBradley> Sure
 <mysekurity> yeah. Chris, do you want to discuss it over pm rather than here, so as not to annoy the others?
 <ChrisBradley> I am sorry. Sure
 <Sunir> you could do it in a circle, and have a secretary record a list of issues that people are facing. then later in the conference, people can break out and try to tackle those problems, and report back at the end of the conference.
 <Sunir> you could do the status reports in a circle, that is
 <_sj_> to ensure we don't end up without a single news presentation (for instnace)
 <Betsy_Devine> sj, maybe post some tracks people want, but also encourage submissions from would-be speakers or groups
 <mysekurity> yeah
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 <Betsy_Devine> Then define a track based on submissions, or just call that track "From all over" 
 <mysekurity> so papers, /then/ tracks?
 <nichtich> yes
 <_sj_> I like the idea of people trying to solve problems together after discussing them in person.
 <Betsy_Devine> mysekurity, for at least one track, yes
 <_sj_> betsy: doing both sounds like a plan.
 <cormaggio> mysekurity> i agree with that
 <_sj_> there's a list of track and speaker ideas on meta:
 <Sunir> one track that I'd like (and possible may run) is for other wikis to get together to discuss/resolve our own problems.
 <mysekurity> we're being kind of open and flexible with this?
 <Austin> Unified wikisyntax!  ;)
 <_sj_> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikimania_2006/Program#Program
 <Sunir> Austin, WYSIWYG!
 <Sunir> heh
 <await> So we have http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2006/Program#Main_conference_tracks    Are we trying to get, say, 4 tracks a day for three days?  (A total of 12 tracks.)  Is it too early to talk about how many parallel tracks we plan to have?
 <_sj_> austin: totally.
 <brassratgirl> betsy: I like the idea of having at least one open track -- it leaves it more flexible for potential contribs 
 <_sj_> Over the weekend when this came up, 5-8 tracks were suggested as a good number
 <jkbaumga> freestyle
 <nichtich> The only "tracks" we can agree on now are http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_Call_for_Papers#Topics
 <_sj_> Last year, we just asked everyone to submit papers, and after all submissions wer ein, tried to identify tracks.
 <brian0918> that is probably the better plan
 <_sj_> with a little bit of seeding by choosing individuals to whom the CfP was sent personally
 <_sj_> I'd like to see a more active pursuit of balanced tracks this year;
 <nichtich> Last year we missed to tell the people what *exactely* to submit and how to handle it
 <_sj_> there are some subjects which everyone wants to hear about, but not many people want to present about.
 <_sj_> nichtich: yes.
 <Amgine> submission or authors guidelines.
 <Sunir> _sj_, what are those subjects?
 * Sunir doesn't want to talk about soft security any longer. ;)
 <_sj_> sunir: perhaps I should say s/not many people/not many of the submitters/
 <nichtich> we cannot tell "please submit something for track X" but we can tell "you have X minutes, we need an abstract until Y and we would like to have something about topics Z"
 <_sj_> last year, the effect of wikinews and participatory journalism on MSM was one of them
 <Sunir> yeah, there are some hotbutton issues wikimania needs to have in order to draw press and outside interest
 <_sj_> soft security... hmm.  We could have done with more polls of what attendees wanted to see / what they enjoyed most
 <cormaggio> some tracks will have a buzz about them, yes
 <await> nichtich - I also like the idea of sending out the CFP and organizing tracks afterward but keeping in mind _sj_'s comment that the popular submissions are not necessarily the thing people want to hear about.   
 <_sj_> "wikichess : the new openings" is not one of them.
 <Sunir> a whole set of content needs to be there just for media, and of only marginal interest to normal attendees
 <Amgine> Generally speaking, conferences I've attended give podium time to subjects they are most interested in having covered, while other subjects tend to be left for poster presentations.
 <_sj_> sunir: how much would you say is in a 'whole set' ?
 <_sj_> nichtich : from a practical standpoint, we should take some of the ideas about tracks from the Program discussion and update the CfP.
 <Sunir> _sj_ well, you'd need at least one day's worth, starting with the opening and/or closing keynote (the one with Jimbo)
 <Sunir> avoid having nutbars like RMS on that day
 <Betsy_Devine> Sunir, surely one or two sessions would be enough
 <Sunir> Betsy_Devine, you need enough to fill up the journalists time before they go back to write up their article
 <Sunir> they can go do interviews if they want, but basically, if they have nothing to report on, they tend to write negative articles about how much you guys suck
 <Sunir> and how wikipedia is for retards.
 <_sj_> we could do a panel on thaqt.
 <Sunir> cynical journalism/
 <Sunir> ?
 <await> _sj_ why not modify the "topics" portion of the CFP to emphasize, for example, multilingualism.   Can we choose four topics that we consider especially important?
 <Amgine> _sj_: there are questions such as how many papers/submissions/workshop sessions...
 <_sj_> okay, lists of key topics... await, what would your four be?
 <Sunir> how many rooms do you have, and of what size?
 <Sunir> and then take your attendees and divide by 50 to get the number of reasonable simultaneous venues
 <PatrickD_> HAve we realy to decide all this thinks nowhow mutch tacks and panels? Can't we just start at the beginning. Set up the Software, write the call of Paper and talk than about how many ?
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 <nichtich> Topics are at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_Call_for_Papers
 <_sj_> I'd say multilingualism, projects and content, sociology and community, tech, relationship with other projects/orgs?
 <Amgine> Well, having some clue as to the size of the venue allows better discussion of how many primary tracks.
 <_sj_> it's useful to brainstorm about the types of presentations one might have, since that informs who you send the CfP to.
 <cormaggio> My key topics are: education, multilingualism, international/national issues (ie local chapters), project sociology
 <Austin> This is just the public discussion; while selecting a program committee is high on the priority list, we're not there yet.
 <Betsy_Devine> Sunir, so young and already so cynical ;)
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 <Sunir> Betsy_Devine, I worked at a newspaper
 <Sunir> Betsy_Devine, journalists are bitchy if they don't get spoonfed their articles.
 <Amgine> <coughs> Don't know what you're talking about Sunir.
 <Sunir> heh
 <_sj_> (if you have thoughts about what key topics should be, please add them to the list on the Program page.)
 <Sunir> (not all journalists, but some, which is more than enough to ruin a good media campaign.)
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 <await> _sj_ - Free knowledge (& Free education), Multilingualism.   I'm tempted to reorder the topics of the CFP.   
 <ChrisBradley> Amgine - Nice to see you - I think sociology is a great subject - I took 101
 <Amgine> Sunir: offer good food, and a place to smoke.
 <_sj_> do people think it's a good idea to genreally have separate program meetings for a while?  
 <Amgine> Could you define that, _sj_?
 <ChrisBradley> I know how to contact mysekurity now
 <Austin> Congratulations.
 <_sj_> is it necessary to hae separate program discussions like this?
 <cormaggio> as opposed to having them on-wiki..?
 <Betsy_Devine> Sunir, I've been gathering stuff for a press kit, basically paragraphs to spoonfeed to journalists http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2006:publicity
 <_sj_> there's a lot to say about the program that doesn't touch on the rest of wikimania; incidivudal speakers, how to arrange tracks, which groups to contact, &c.
 <ChrisBradley> _sj_ I'd like to look at the current wiki - scrolling up
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 <Amgine> <blink> For the Wikimania project, yes there should be occasional IRC meetings to keep in touch. All decisions must be made or reported on-wiki, I would expect.
 <ChrisBradley> Ok if I keep NOSE - Typead in the loop? 
 <jkbaumga> as opposed to what, sj?
 <brassratgirl> sj: I think it's a good idea 
 <_sj_> right now we're having general wikimaina meetings every two weeks; but this is a separtae program meeting so that talking about tracks and sessions wouldn't overwhelm the chat last saturday.
 <cormaggio> i'm sure they overlap, but it's probably no bad thing
 <cormaggio> keeping them separate, I mean
 <_sj_> 'k.  I'm inclined to agree, since a lot of people were able to make it today.
 <Amgine> <nod> I'd call it a committee, but same concept.
 <Sunir> i think a good draw for journalists is to have a panel called 'WikiNews vs. journalism.'
 <_sj_> maybe we should table diuscussion of specific panels and speakers to the wiki; we have more pressing things to get to today
 <_sj_> anthere, are you live?
 <_sj_> (sunir: everyone loves writing about their own profession :)
 <Amgine> Sunir: Been there, done that... 
 <Betsy_Devine> Sunir, you don't think that title will make journos defensive?
 <cormaggio> Wikinews and the new journalism
 <_sj_> austin, nichtich, PatrickD_ -- do you want to talk about conference software?
 <nichtich> I just want any real conference software
 <PatrickD_> yeah i have to stand up in 5 hours
 <PatrickD_> i prefer also a real software and no wiki again
 <Sunir> Betsy_Devine, yes
 <Austin> Real software will happen.
 <Sunir> but the entire panel should be about deflecting their feear
 <Sunir> 'no, it's not replacing MSM.'
 <PatrickD_> a real conference software
 <Sunir> wikinews uses MSM
 <Sunir> etc.
 <nichtich> not a wiki, not otrs but something to track submissions and all mails that are sent to or from people
 <Sunir> wikinews are not journalists on the ground, but readers of journalists on the ground, etc.
 <Austin> Yes, this will certainly happen, but the exact course is not yet clear.
 <_sj_> It would be great to send out a CfP around the new year, so we can process first submissions around april.
 <Amgine> Sunir: We're trying to be journalists on the ground.
 <PatrickD_> nichtich pentadwarf also uses otrs or RT
 <nichtich> RT?
 <_sj_> what's the story with otrs right now?  is it lined up to be in use by wikimedia for years?
 <Betsy_Devine> There was about 6 months when every conf had a panel about blogging vs. journalism; it became the subject of widespread mockery.
 <Austin> Request Tracker, another ticket system.
 <Sunir> Amgine, sure, but not 'professional' journalists (work with me here). Pros can then source their material from wikinews faster and cheaper than reuters, ap, etc.
 <nichtich> ok, otrs is not that bad bad otrs only is not enough
 <Sunir> anyway, that's just one way to get coverage.
 <PatrickD_> nichtig thats right
 <_sj_> pentabarf :)
 <Amgine> Sunir: Wrong tack. I would suggest instead that WN be "sold" as a venue for local news which is not covered by MSM
 <Amgine> Because any journalist will quickly see we really would like to do so-called "real-journalism".
 <nichtich> I just want a conference software where you can see what submissions have been made, which of them have been answered, reviewd and decided or not
 <_sj_> we should test out paper-processing software a week or two before sending out the cfp, if everyone's supposed to know how to use it
 <PatrickD_> _sj_: yeah everyone should have a look before
 <Betsy_Devine> nichtich, what conferences do you know of that used such software?
 <Betsy_Devine> I like the sound of it, are there multiple choices that do that?
 <Austin> My opinions on this matter are well-known.  :)
 <_sj_> nichtich: sure.  something simple would be fine; is the only trouble with pentabarf atm that Anthere (for instance) would have a hard time viewing it on their computer?
 <nichtich> I know that but scientific conferences use it
 <nichtich> Austin: can you repeat shortly, please?
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 <_sj_> has any big conference used pentabarf since what the hack?
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 <_sj_> (wb)
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 <await> _sj_, cormaggio - http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2006/Program#Key_topics_from_2005-11-23 - anybody else?  Is it useful if I pull in more details from the CFP and flesh it out?  For myself, I think "wiki" journalism should be its own topic; it can/should be done well.  Lots of opportunity for International exchange
 <Betsy_Devine> Maybe invite a journalist to talk about Wikinews, somebody like Paul Boutin
 <cormaggio> thanks await, i'll edit it on-wiki i think
 <Amgine> I have a few journalists we could contact, the question is what are we looking for Betsy_Devine?
 <Austin> In short, for program planning I'd love nothing more than to find a suitable, existing system; none have yet been found, however, so other options include integrating the rest of our custom software with a generic workflow framework, and writing something from scratch using an existing relational database framework.
 <Betsy_Devine> pentabarf--nobody will have a better name.
 <Austin> Certainly no more ironic.  :)
 <_sj_> austin: how long might that kind of integration take?  what rdbms framework might one use?
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 <_sj_> "Mania on rails" sounds only slightly less frightening than "cards on the floor"
 <Amgine> <wave @ delphine>
 <_sj_> hey del
 <Austin> It depends on what's selected.
 <Austin> Heheh.  :)
 <delphine> hiho Amgine :)
 <Austin> Hey Del.
 <_sj_> austin: if we're talking about an implementation over the next 6 weeks or so...
 <delphine> hey sj, Austin, here's your towel
 * Austin waves at his towel.
 <PatrickD_> _sj_ 4 weeks because we will have to make the alpha test
 <Austin> A generic workflow framework can be used right away, without any integration needed.
 <Austin> But it's not exactly what we're doing here.
 <_sj_> ...it would be nice to have a list of potential [selections].    
 <Betsy_Devine> Here's somebody who used Pentabarf http://tim.geekheim.de/2005/07/
 <_sj_> would it help to have separate discussions or hacking sessions devoted to that kind of app?  are there reasons other than browser limitations that pentabarf is a poor idea?
 <Betsy_Devine> er, sounds like maybe the proud daddy of it
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 <_sj_> http://pentabarf.org/wikipgedia/index.php?title=Special:Recentchanges&days=30
 <Amgine> Have to run... late already. Will check out meta in a few hours.
 <Betsy_Devine> Slashdot in July 2005 on Open Source Conf Mgt Sw http://ask.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/07/02/1954247&tid=215&tid=185&tid=4
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 <_sj_> (generic workflow might be enough for simple processing...
 <_sj_> say for the first months of handling submissions, as we would hardly get any.)
 <_sj_> nichtich : "where you can see what submissions have been made, which of them have been answered, reviewd and decided or not" -- is that really all you want?
 <Betsy_Devine> Slashdot mentions Continue, wh/ was used for a bunch of conferences: http://continue.cs.brown.edu/past/
 <_sj_> not also program-managment for the conference schedule?
 <nichtich> I don't mind which software. The slashdot article summarizes the what the ideal application should do very well
 <nichtich> It's more important just to have a software that is designed for the basic tasks that to have an ideal software next year.
 <_sj_> yea.
 <nichtich> my main requirements are: accept submission of abstracts and papers and manage feedback on abstracts and papers from peer reviewers
 <Betsy_Devine> Amazing, the goto for Continue is Jay McCarthy, who used to run tech for all the Berkman mtgs.
 * Amgine is now known as Amgine_
 <jkbaumga> Betsy, that was a long time ago   = )
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 <_sj_> well having a custom system to do this would be great.  using some flawed but non-wiki package would be better than last year.
 <PatrickD_> sorry i realy have to go have to be fit tomorrow . (One Problem with Continue: it it NOT free software)
 <Betsy_Devine> jkbaumga, so true. IIRC he was about 10 years old at the time ;)
 <_sj_> sleep well...
 <brassratgirl> bye PatrickD
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 <Betsy_Devine> Not free? I missed that part. Maybe they'd like to make a donation of their fee?
 <nichtich> Austin: I would thank you for anything that goes into this direction and fulfills the main requirements. I don't understand what you mean with "generic workflow" but if you can do the two points I summarized with it, it would be great
 <PatrickD_> ANy anthing for confernce Planing is better than a wiki
 <delphine> *nods*
 <PatrickD_> Betsy_Devine: don't find a link where i can get a download
 <nichtich> well, you can always make it worse too ;-)
 <delphine> what am I thinking of
 <delphine> *claps*
 <Austin> "Workflow" is essentially "ticket system plus coordination, and maybe other stuff."
 <Austin> Each submission could be a task, for instance, and manage approval/&c. as status updates.
 <PatrickD_> bye to all
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 <_sj_> with an otrs interface?
 <Austin> Like I said, it's not exactly well suited.
 <Austin> Well, OTRS is a ticket system itself, and I for one have no intention of grafting some sort of program management stuff onto it.
 <_sj_> *nod*
 * delphine waves at Sunir
 <Austin> We'd simply send those e-mail addresses to the workflow system, rather than otrs.
 <Betsy_Devine> Just email Jay at Brown: "How much is the "modest fee" for Continue, and do you think Brown would like to help sponsor the big Wikipedia int'l conference by waiving it?"
 <nichtich> austin: sounds good. I only doubt that we'll get something to start with in 4 weeks - perhaps I'm just pessimstic
 <Betsy_Devine> er, I just emailed him. I didn't see a download either, but the "tour" includes reviewing as well as submission, etc.
 <Austin> nichtich: the program committee may not be selected as soon as everyone would like, anyway.
 <_sj_> it would help to have a list of candidates, with estimated implementation time for each.  we have a certain amount of time to pick among them; just not forever
 <Austin> But a generic system could be installed in hours.
 <cormaggio> don't mean to interrupt the practical stuff, but was this not meant to be a program meeting?
 <Austin> Program discussion.
 <_sj_> cormac : this relates to the CfP schedule :-)
 <nichtich> ok, so can we have it on friday?
 <cormaggio> fair enough
 <cormaggio> any more program ideas though?
 <_sj_> or ideas about getting new program ideas -- 
 <_sj_> ideas for advisors to the program committee?
 <await> I tried to flesh out people's favorite topics from the CFP descriptions.  
 <Betsy_Devine> A question--can we get a little box on the front page of Wikpedia for Wikimania news? Then we could point to our list of tracks, asking for input.
 <await> clearly we already have around 8 "tracks".... 
 <_sj_> betsy : that might be difficult
 <cormaggio> i saw that await, and I added my local chapters track - listening delphine?
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 <_sj_> wb brion
 <_sj_> betsy : might be hard to get on the main page.
 <_sj_> but we could get users to add such a thing to their user pages;
 <await> cormaggio - i think your local chapters track is a =really= important idea! 
 <cormaggio> cool :-)
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 <ChrisBradley> Am I to get this right - MS is squatting on Pentabarf?
 <delphine> cormaggio yep
 <_sj_> chris: eh?
 <cormaggio> and it should be public this time
 <Betsy_Devine> sj, maybe we could petition for a tiny, tiny square on the main page...
 <cormaggio> and colate what people are doing, what they have done and what others could do in the future..
 <mindspillage> Could potentially get shoved into the COmmunity Portal, too, perhaps, which isn't so tightly controlled as the Main Page.
 <_sj_> cormac: definitely.  betsy: worth a try.
 <await> cormaggio - I think at least some sponsors would be interested in providing travel funds for local chapters
 <_sj_> the CP would be a great place to start.
 <ChrisBradley> Slashdot - "MS - planning software must be created - we accept all abstracts and whitepapers..."
 <cormaggio> await> ideas please!
 <_sj_> cormac: ditto for the formatino of on-wiki projects and groups
 <Betsy_Devine> or just "Wikimania2006" that links
 <mindspillage> (also Goings-On)
 <ChrisBradley> _sj_ if this is true - #knox wants pentabarf to add to Debian Experimental.
 <await> well. I've already volunteered to go after sponsors. I just need to know the data of the conference and the number of beds we have reserved from the law school.
 <ChrisBradley> we have AES encryption built in.
 <brassratgirl> await: yes, knowing conference dates is crucial to promoting the conference
 <Betsy_Devine> I wonder if Errol Morris might like to come film us (the Mac "switcher" ad guy)
 <_sj_> await: hopefully we can get room reservations for the first week in august, so there won't be any tough decisions involved
 <Betsy_Devine> He lives in Cambridge.
 <await> _sj_ great.
 <Betsy_Devine> Fast, Cheap and Out of Control. Fog of War. Gates of Heaven.
 <_sj_> there have been some suggestions of advisors on various pages; I'll put them together on the program-page notes
 <_sj_> and people can discuss later how we might get advisors involved, and what role they could play (and, correspondingly, how to set up a program committee)
 <Betsy_Devine> Maybe he and Ellen Feiss could co-present on geek sociology ;)
 <_sj_> heh (:
 <nichtich> austin: what's wrong with http://www.pkp.ubc.ca/ocs/ ? I just cannot imagine that you can create all this in some hours
 <Austin> First, I have no idea how or how well it works, but it's certainly an option.  Second, we weren't talking about a custom system.
 <Austin> We were talking about adapting a generic one to our needs, if nothing else could be found.
 <_sj_> we've already talked a bit about getting feedback;
 <await> nichtich - what conferences use the ocs? 
 <ChrisBradley> nichtich - I like your style. I am just a kernel distro though
 <Betsy_Devine> nichtich, interesting, I'm looking to see if anybody used it since 2003 though.
 <_sj_> and translation of program-related messages was covered on Saturday
 <Betsy_Devine> List of users of ocs http://pkp.sfu.ca/ocs/demo/relatedlinks.php?cf=1
 <_sj_> (we need a short announcement that the event is happening; and a bit later the guts of an actual CfP, to translate)
 <_sj_> does anyone want to volunteer to work on the CfP text over the coming weeks?
 <ChrisBradley> Oh - I am having an IRONCOW over OCS. Please join us You will not regret it.
 <await>  i volunteer. (re CFP.) 
 <await> what do you want me to do?
 <brassratgirl> sj: cfp - sure 
 <Betsy_Devine> ChrisBradley IRONCOW?
 <ChrisBradley> my other nick...
 <ChrisBradley> of several
 <ChrisBradley> Betsy_Devine - Are you an OCS rep?
 <Betsy_Devine> ChrisBradley, no, I never heard of it until it turned up in the /. story
 <Betsy_Devine> Which I found using Google.
 <brassratgirl> sj: so you want to organize the program committee later? 
 <_sj_> await : improve the lsit of topics on the CfP from suggestions (here and on meta); create intro text describing the kinds and formats of submissions
 <_sj_> (we have to discuss the specifics of submissions as well;  but not right now)
 <ChrisBradley> Betsy_Devine - for now I will consider you my expert on OCS... :) PS - Debian != Microsoft.
 <Betsy_Devine> Oops, I mean, I found Continue in the /. story. Never heard of OCS until somebody here mentioned it.
 <_sj_> brassratgirl: goes for you, too.
 <ChrisBradley> Knox = HD Encryption for Debian
 <_sj_> as for the program team/committee -- how should this be structured?  that, and setting a time for the next meeting, are the last agenda items.
 <await> _sj_ - when do you want the next draft?  anybody besides you and brassratgirl want to work on this?
 <Betsy_Devine> ChrisBradley, I listen in awe, all the more so since I don't know diddly about Debian etc. being a humble Mac user
 <ChrisBradley> I have a .mac e-mail
 <_sj_> we can discuss the next meeting date by mail.
 <ChrisBradley> I wrote concerning MacIntels
 <ChrisBradley> :)
 <_sj_> await: I imagine others will chime in if you start working on the wiki
 <await> so edit the CFP in place? 
 <_sj_> yes.
 <cormaggio> i agree with editing on-wiki - that's what we do ;-)
 <ChrisBradley> Betsy_Devine /query acceptable?
 <Betsy_Devine> I'm not plugged in enough to do much good on a program c'tee, but I'm happy to keep working on publicity stuff.
 <await> cool.  do you want us to compose an email to the list as well?  
 <_sj_> await: I'm sure that would help
 <Betsy_Devine> Chris, ?
 <_sj_> I don't think most people will have opinions about the filler text of a CfP, but it's a rason to think about tracks and sessions and the kind of community information they'd like to see covered @ wikimania
 <_sj_> Amgine, perhaps you could describe your partner's committee structure on the wiki, as a starting point
 <ChrisBradley> may I send you our project details in a Private Message Betsy_Devine?
 <Betsy_Devine> sj, on the community portal page, there's plenty of room for "Wikimania2006" in the Contents box
 <Betsy_Devine> And in the big "To do" box
 <_sj_> betsy: totally.  you can add something yourself, if you'd like.   definitely in the todo box... for anything we really want lots of wiki editors to try to do
 <Betsy_Devine> Chris, I'd be honored  (curtseys to CB
 <await> _sj_ -  I'll send you and brassratgirl email over the weekend.  I'll focus on editing http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_Call_for_Papers based on people's comments today. 
 <await> Maybe send out an email to the list pre-CFP next week? 
 <ChrisBradley> Thank you Betsy Devine
 <_sj_> next week sounds find.  I don't know what you mean by pre-cfp...
 <_sj_> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2006/Teams --  thoughts on tracks and program and other team structure would be appreciated.
 <await> just something on the mania list calling attention to the CFP url and asking for comments before the actual CFP goes out.
 <_sj_> I don't expect a cfp will go out for many weeks yet.
 <Betsy_Devine> sj, did you settle on a date?
 <_sj_> betsy, not yet, but soon.
 <_sj_> await: we were just talking about choosing conf software to use before sending out the cfp.
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 <_sj_> akl and delphine, I'd particularly like to hear your thoughts on team structure; as you brought it up two weeks ago.
 <await> _sj_ - sure.  I'm glad there is no hurry. 
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 <delphine> sj, we're talking about program team?
 <_sj_> await: but an email next wek would be fine :)
 * _sj_ waves at MSameer
 <delphine> or teams altogether?
 * MSameer waves to _sj_  
 <_sj_> we need program and translation teams soonest.
 <_sj_> see http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2006/Teams
 <_sj_> the program teams could be the most interesting; especially if we incorporate outside advisors.
 <MSameer> i'm just following
 <delphine> translation teams won't help until we have something to put somewhere
 <delphine> so program team is the first thing
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 <delphine> and I would go for a bit of everything. ie. people from last year. New people. People from outside the Wikimedia community.
 * randy is now known as randy_f
 <await> delphine - what was the program team last year? 
 <cormaggio> is there a provisional program team for now?
 <delphine> await sj, Erik, angela, Jakob, PatrickD
 <Betsy_Devine> I left a msg on Elian's German user page, but she seems to be offline.
 <delphine> were the most active
 <delphine> I would probably double the team
 <delphine> Jakob=nichtich
 <cormaggio> and Erik's gone
 * mindspillage has quit IRC (K-lined
 <delphine> have around 10 people, make sure that the balance is preserved between old people, new people, outside people
 <delphine> have sub-teams that look at the papers
 <cormaggio> on a general point - i think papers need feedback - i must say i felt a bit badly informed last year
 <delphine> and we need some logistics coordinator within this team. Someone who will interface with the main logistics coordinator and registration people to make sure everything is fine with the speakers
 <Betsy_Devine> Well, folks, tomorrow is Thanksgiving.. And my gender is as implied by my name ;) If I don't get off this computer and start making killer brownies, there will be sad ppl tomorrow in my house. 
 <delphine> cormaggio yes, I believe feedback will be easier if not everybody has to look at all the papers
 <_sj_> (re: translation, the first thing to do once we set the date is sending out a message about the date)
 <delphine> Betsy_Devine send some our way!
 <cormaggio> so we have papers aligned with specific interests or something
 <_sj_> 'night betsy!
 <delphine> Betsy_Devine happy thanksgiving :)
 <Betsy_Devine> delphine, I really should blog the recipe, it is AWESOME!
 <delphine> ;)
 <jkbaumga> Happy Thanksgiving, Betsy
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 <jkbaumga> we have blondies here
 * jkbaumga hands Betsy a blondie
 <randy_f> hi there
 <_sj_> we could do small subgroups of around 5 people, grouped by topical expertise, that read all papers on a topic
 <_sj_> some people could be on more than one group
 <delphine> so anyway, I would get little teams assigned to whatever track/theme they're more interested in
 <delphine> get them to rate/choose the papers
 <delphine> exactly
 <_sj_> this works best if you know you'll have a certain minimum # of papers in each subject
 <Betsy_Devine> jk, the killers are chocolate brownies with a layer of melted caramels and choc chips between two layers of brownie. 
 <delphine> errr, no about the people in more than one group
 <_sj_> (for instance, if we're actively soliciting papers for a few core tracks)
 <cormaggio> ok so maybe more than 10 for the program committee?
 <delphine> but it doesn't prevent the people in one group to ask advice feedback from the other groups
 <_sj_> delphine: well, if we can find enough readers that each person can be in just on egroup, that's super
 <delphine> cormaggio possibly, yes
 <randy_f> so being old might do me some good here? 58
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 * delphine hugs mindspillage
 <_sj_> wb mind
 <mysekurity> allright
 <mysekurity> I just finished reading through that conversation and I had one question:
 <await> it's common to have a smallish program committee (<12 people) that consults many, many, many readers.  
 <jkbaumga> Betsy, I'm one of those folks who doesn't like chocolate   = )
 <mysekurity> what have we decided about the Wikimania website?
 <cormaggio> there may be six or seven active tracks with many papers for each, and some smaller ones
 <mindspillage> ty.
 <jkbaumga> but caramel    mmmmmm
 <mysekurity> and yes, I'd love a blondie, sorry I'm not there...
 * jkbaumga hands mysekurity a blondie
 <mysekurity> about the website though: have we decided on whether or not it will be a wiki
 <jkbaumga> (we should probably stop talking about food   it'll make these hardcore wikimanians want to plan harder)
 <_sj_> mysekurity: we didn't talk about the website today (just a program discussion), but on saturday it was noted again that we should put current 2006 information on the 'mania website and archive the old content
 <jkbaumga> yes!!!
 <Betsy_Devine> jessica, not liking chocolate. wow. I wish I didn't. ;-)
 <_sj_> mysekurity: can you ask the mailing list ?
 <_sj_> we have to wrap up the meeting; it's time to go home :-)
 <_sj_> even for people who don't have Xgiving tomorrow, 2 hrs is long enough for any discussion.
 * mysekurity thanks j, and eats it noisly
 <mysekurity> any thoughts about the site?
 <_sj_> (cormac : it's tough to read more than 50 papers.  we could easily do 5 people per 50 papers... so maybe 20-30 on the program committee if you include all readers.)
 <cormaggio> sj: will we have that many papers
 * jkbaumga hands mysekurity a napkin for the crumbs
 <cormaggio> ?
 <_sj_> we had almost 100 last year, with much less notice and publicity.
 <mysekurity> so archive as in...non-editable?
 <_sj_> well, I don't konw if you could call some of them papers :-)
 <cormaggio> :-)
 <_sj_> and this isn't like an academic conference where submissions are 4 pages of dense LaTeXed text.
 <jkbaumga> (and some of us have been here for 3 hours)
 <cormaggio> well, that's a alot of work - i reckon we need quite a lot of people then - as you suggest
 <mysekurity> yeah that sounds good.
 <mysekurity> thanks for the brownies and chat
 <cormaggio> is it a case of adding names for program interests to the wiki for now?
 <randy_f> j brought salad to the Berkman for the carbohydrate challenged
 <mysekurity> on meta?
 <_sj_> If you're interested in being involved with the program team, please add yourself and any details you'd like at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2006/Teams
 <_sj_> I'll collect some of the suggestions about team structure there;
 <randy_f> And the quacademics will not get out of hand this summer. i simply won't allow it :)
 <_sj_> and post a transcript of this chat later tonight.
 <cormaggio> ok thanks - I'll see if i can help out in some way
 <_sj_> that's all for this program meeting; we should schedule another one via mailing list soon (especially if there will be a draft cfp in a week)