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24's critique

The only thing that has been added to the main page is a plain fact, that Larry Sanger is gone, and his plainly stated opinion that the project not be allowed to become an anarchy simply because some people (like you) feel more comfortable that way.

The only link to any file on that page now in any kind of special position is to a simple discussion of a means of governance that requires no special powers nor coercion to implement - it's simply a means of assessing whatever shared visions and best cases we have, and avoiding worst cases.

No, I am not interesting in being in a "community" with you, Stephen Gilbert. However, many people who are not in communities with each other manage to submit to a common protocol of governance for some thing that is useful or effective to them. I am not in a community with the people who are growing most of my food, but somehow I trust them enough to eat it without putting it through a regime of testing - I just wash it, eat it, and trust.

Sooner or later, the meta home page must change, for some reason, and your reverting of it to sabotage all attempts at governance or even just plain asking about the value system of the project, will not really change that.

Sooner or later, someone who knows nothing of you or your clique will fill out a status quo report following the procedure outlined, looking at the other files, and there will be, lo and behold, a tiny spark of a non-anarchy.

Unlike you, I don't require a reputation or friends to do what is right. I just see it, and do it. No, I am not interested in explaining anything more. The procedure proposed in governance stands on its own and is very obviously not controlled by anyone. Failing to follow it or counter-propose or even comment on it, as you have refused to do as a matter of policy, is a simple and childish attempt to prevent widespread discussion of governance and broad input on visions or best cases or threats.

You appear to be a foolish, selfish, child, who views this project only as a way to satisfy some personal desire to appear clever, in control, or trusted. You are none of the three. I invite you to alter this impression I have of you, and that which others who read this will have, and to participate in the process outlined in status quo or some other that you propose. I would be pleased if you would overcome appearances and write the first status quo report - especially if it is harshly critical of things you perceive me to be doing. I would, at least, know exactly what you mean.

As it is, I am expressing a reasonable point of view, as neutral as I can, and moving all articles towards neutrality as required by the participants. I am not, contrary to various silly lies, imposing a Natural point of view on this encyclopedia, and if that is your impression, then I pity you, for you must have no comprehension whatsoever of what such a POV might be...

I await a response, or your continued policy of silence. If the latter, then please be kind enough to the other participants to explain exactly who and how one is authorized to change the meta home page, or where the governance concerns should be discussed. That is a reasonable request, even if it does not come from a member of your "community", it comes from a contributor who has already done quite a bit to make you confront what Jimbo Wales calls the collective "ignorance", whether you accept that as a service or not.

I don't believe Jimbo Wales understood what I wrote at all, but that's fine, as he accuses me similarly. But at least, he responds, and in some detail so we can mull over each other's views. You, on the other hand, simply sulk and sabotage.

I pity you.

24


24, three mostly practical concerns before we get on with the meta-discussion:

1. It would be helpful to us all, and I would consider it a personal favor to me, if you would log in.

no, this would not be helpful, it would be destructive, and I think you can validate that by any serious investigation of w:groupthink and the ways it is combatted.
This helps us in two very practical ways: first, it ensures that we won't mistake someone else with a 24.* ip number (such as me from home, for example) for you. Second, it will create a '24' user page where we might leave you small notes and questions.
that page already exists, and I think people here know who I am. If not what.

2. The word "community" -- please stop fighting about our usage of it.

no. your use is an abuse.
Consider it a novel (and mostly uncontroversial!) perceptual marker for the concept of "regular participants".
call it a "thought market" or "meme market" even, and I will stop objecting. Use the same word as is used for drought-ridden villages in Western AF who are selling youngest children to stay alive, and you belittle their concerns. I repeat, a community is people who share w:risk of w:bodily harm and it is immoral in my view to use that word otherwise and thus distract or dilute attention from people at such risk of such harm.

You may not want to be in the wikipedia community with Stephen Gilbert, just as you may not want to be in a real community with a criminal, and just as you may not want to be in the same family with a racist or mean-spirited cousin. Nonetheless, you are.

no, I am not. I am engaged in a sort of dance with him. Fair enough. He said he would ignore me, so I am evidently excluded by his own algorithm of governance. It seems to be only you paying attention to my comment to him.

So long as you continue to take an interest in the project, and to participate in the project, and to discuss with us the future of the project, possible problems with the project, then you are in our community.

no, I am contributing supplies to a market which has some demand for them, or at least gaping holes that must be filled. I have not raised any issue with the future of the project, other than laying out some visions and best cases as have others. There is no concept even of a governed market until there is agreement on what governance is. This is not a community, and can't be, until...

I expect that sometime soon, we'll start to see spontaneous physical meetings between community members, who will then become real world friends, etc. Someday, we'll have big get-togethers in central locations around the world.

possibly. at that point, there might be many communities or villages, each of which contributes somewhat to the "guild" of wikipedia, but that guild is not gonig to be that village or the sum of them, nor any of the ideological tribes which will be imported from the outside world.24

3. You seem to think that I have misunderstood you. This seems likely, because I find much of your writing to be rambling and not very much to-the-point.

some of these controversial topics are not amenable to quick treatment. Without knowing what "the point" is, to you personally, I can hardly get to it quickly. I submit I know as little about the other potentially billions of readers than you, and never can. If you can tighten a passage and still get across the complexity and the argument, do.24

Will you consider joining the mailing list? Meta-discussions carried out there are usually more clear -- the wiki screens get confusing after a bit too much point-counterpoint.

I can understand that, but frankly mailing lists are a poor way to do such stuff, and hard to keep anonymous without setting up special addresses for it, etc.. I submit that any system of governance that doesn't rely on joint file editing here, can't work, and so I will stay away from that list for now.
Alternatively, I'd like to hear from you in private email: jwales@bomis.com, to attempt to address some of your grievances,
I don't have any grievances. I *EXPECTED* to be treated like a pariah by a clique which would only slowly realize that their theory of neutrality, which seems also to be yours, is wrong, and can only lead to the end of the project. I further expect that the clique will declare me some kind of hazard to their way of life or strange beliefs (including "wikipedia as an end in itself" which is beyond solipsism) and use page locks, IP bans, and the like. This is also normal behavior for those who do not understand w:groupthink or how they express it in their actions, including e.g.. demands for citations on things that are easy to validate or obviously neutral w.r.t. ideology.

and also for me to try to understand your perspective a bit better. --Jimbo Wales

I'll consider that at a future time, when I am sure that governance on this project makes it worthy of continued participation. I am not convinced of that, although I see many sincere people here working hard, I know for a certainty that this work will come to nothing unless this project has a goal. I laid out three billionth user as a goal. Perhaps that's the simplified version. But what's the goal of this project? Is it one of the visions? What's yours? You can understand my perspective perfectly just by reading that and you can see what I think is realistic by reading the best cases.
for now, thanks for your attention to governance, I'd like to know why it took nearly a month to discover who was actually claiming to be Larry's successor... as LDC was for a while. I hope you can see the problem rising...

Spartacus' stuff

I deleted all of Saprtacus's stuff, and got bored doing it through the web and just whacked it all directly from the database. This is suboptimal, but it does make the job simpler. --Jimbo Wales 16:53 Feb 12, 2003 (UTC)

and....you feel better ???
Yes, much. Thanks for your concern. Wikipedia is not a free homepage provider. If someone wants to post non-wikipedia material out on the net somewhere, that's fine. Hell, write to me, and I'll probably offer free server space on one of my servers. But that doesn't mean that meta.wikipedia.org is the right place for it. Jimbo Wales 17:06 Feb 12, 2003

(UTC)


Dear Jimbo Wales + the 3 Administrators: I am sorry if I had intruded into your meta-encyclopedia, well I thought that meta-wiki was for personal point of views, at least that what I was told when I was directed to meta. But I see that here it is also no good, so obviously I will stop. I have little means to have my own domain and put my stuff there, so if you really wish to help me I will except your offer to give me space on your server and I will appreciate that very much. Sorry for boring you whilst deleting me, but if I knew that it was so intrusive I would have stopped myself long ago, but none of you said anything but on the contrary, some have even encouraged a cooperative merging. I await your instructions and thanks again for not being negative completely. User:Spartacus

Spartacus, I pointed out to you several times that neither Wikipedia nor the meta-Wikipedia was a free publishing zone for your material. I also gave you links to several websites that would provide you with a free wiki, such as http://www.seedwiki.com . You ignored me, and removed my comments from your personal page. -- Stephen Gilbert

Now iam going to delete Jimbo Wales stuff, and got angry.

You have deleted my stuff without giving me even a warning. I would have moved the stuff somewhere else. You surprised me therefore iam going to surprise you little cowardice yuppie.


You remove names of people from a page obviously dealing with Wikipedia stuff...why ? Do you feel better ?

I feel great. Can you tell me which page you're talking about? "Names of people"? Jimbo Wales 16:38 Feb 14, 2003 (UTC)
I am glad for you !
here ???

Database discussion

A start on the database drive discussion and a followup on the Q&A session are at Hardware order May 2004. A brief wrapup one month later is at the bottom of Upgrade discussion April 2004 . Some discussion of whether we're choosing the most cost-effective option for web servers will appear at May 2004 web server choices once I get to it. The questions revolve around the choice between rackmount and commodity boxes (of the type often used now to build extremely capable distributed supercomputers and the sort Tim Starling mentioned on the list). What the colo can handle will be one factor - nobody seems to know whether we're limited to rackmount units or not. Jamesday 22:34, 22 May 2004 (UTC)

Geneva trip

Hi Jimbo,

I would not like to miss you when you come to Geneva as I live about 20 km from Geneva downtown. How can we meet there? Yann 17:39, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Hi Yann, I'm trying to organise a meeting in Geneva, see also de:Wikipedia:Treffen der Wikipedianer/Schweiz/Genf and fr:Wikipédia:Rencontre/Genève. Could you ask around on the french wikipedia who would want to come and when? --Stw 14:40, 9 Sep 2004 (UTC)
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