Requests for new languages/Wikipedia Triestin

Triestin Wikipedia

submitted	verification	final decision

	This proposal has been closed as part of a reform of the request process. This request has not necessarily been rejected, and new requests are welcome. This decision was taken by the language committee in accordance with the Language proposal policy. The closing committee member provided the following comment: This discussion was created before the implementation of the Language proposal policy, and it is incompatible with the policy. Please open a new proposal in the format this page has been converted to (see the instructions). Do not copy discussion wholesale, although you are free to link to it or summarise it (feel free to copy your own comments over). —{admin} Pathoschild 22:02:51, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Proposal summary
Language details: [Triestin (tri [invented]) Editing community: Arlon (NP), Starlite (N), Juliet (N), Malto (N), remly (N) ,Stefano79 (N), Cenerentola82 (N), Leucona (N), Kiki (N), SandroWeb (N), Daniele (N) List your user name if you're interested in editing the wiki. Add "N" next to your name if you are a native speaker of this language. Relevant pages: — External links: —
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Relevant infos: Triestin is a language that is spoken (by the majority of the population) in the Italian city of Trieste, as well as all over the world, where people from Trieste (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trieste) moved after the WW2, or later. Right now it is listed in the "Venetian" dialect list; its lexical roots are definitely venetian. However, Triestin has a lot of influence from Slavian languages (Slovenian and Croatian), as well as German, Friulian and ancient Latin. It is far from being a moribund language: nowadays is it spoken by almost all of the over-65 inhabitants of Trieste (who sometimes can't speak properly the national language, Italian) and most of the other parts of the population, youth included. A good amount of words are considered a sort of spoken "slang", slightly different from the written "Triestin". It can be read on most of the local web communities (such as Forums and Newsgroups). Recently the Triestin is spreading also, even slowly, in the youth part of the communities Chinese and Albanese of immigrates in Trieste, and even in the Italian's youth that usually don't speak it at home. It still is the flag of the soul of the city.
External useful links: "Triestin" rules (http://www.trieste.com/acc/citta/triestin.html) in italian, monolingual amateurial dictionary (http://www.tuttotrieste.net/dizts.htm), botanical article (http://www.quatrociacoe.it/200403/primavera.php), lots of books in Triestin (among many in Italian) can be found at (http://www.linteditoriale.com/), translations from Triestin to Italian (http://triestemia.com/TSDial.htm), novels (http://www.chimere.org/vitetriestine/index.html), some more info (http://www.euregion.net/index.php?module=subjects&func=viewpage&pageid=12), grammar info in Italian (http://www.euregion.net/index.php?module=subjects&func=viewpage&pageid=13)
Notice that in these websites it is mostly called "dialect" but its usage is close to a proper language, with a strong publication history in the 20th century (that slowed down in the last few years, but never stopped).
- App. number of speakers: 250/300.000 (probably many more from all over the world, especially Australia, Argentina and USA)
- Location(s) spoken: Trieste, Slovenia, Croatia, Venezia Giulia, Bassa Friulana

- I am not entirely sure but my first reaction is weak oppose. From what I know, Triestin and Venetian varieties are completely mutually comprehensible; also general Venetian has heaps of speakers and there are plenty of additional Venetians on Wikipedia. Also, a google search for "Lingua triestina" (trestin language) returns 34 results only while a search for "Dialetto triestino" gives 1180. --Node ue 23:13, 27 Jun 2005 (UTC)
  - This is much the same story as with Baseldytsch. But there are so many supporters that, if they do not turn out to be sockpuppets of one single user, we almost have to implement this request somehow. But let's just call it "Venetian" and allow any dialect, including Triestin. Caesarion 15:51, 28 Jun 2005 (UTC)
    - Hi Caesarion, every single name under "supporters" was added by a single user, Arlon. I'm removing them. If these people actually exist, they can come here and add their names themselves. --63.226.56.135 01:25, 29 Jun 2005 (UTC) (node)
      - 63.226.56.135, THIS IS WHAT THEY ACTUALLY DID. I have no idea about the way you recognize who is who, but you're totally wrong this time. You simply shouldn't have removed those users..! And, remember: this time I'll be back-upping the page, so they won't be deleted this easily. I should have done this before Arlon
    - As native speaker I can assure Triestin is obviously part of the Venetian varieties but, as already written above, it has been heavily affected over the centuries by languages like Greek, German, Slovenian, Croatian and French, so that many words and phrases are quite different and not understandable by other Venetian-variety speakers. This happened because of the very peculiar history of the area in which Triestin is still widely and actively spoken. Starlite 17:20, 28 Jun 2005 (UTC)
    - As I am the proposer, I can first af all assure that most of those users are unique ones.. I only did spread the request to some forums, and received back lots of interest, surely more than I first expected. Triestin is mostly called a dialect but, as I said before (and, I think, proved), its usage is much closer to a real language. It has not been considered as a "proper" language simply cause it picks up words from lots of sources, mixing them up using venetian ONLY AS A GRAMMAR BASE. If you want confirmation to this just ask a Venetian how many words like these (http://www.tuttotrieste.net/dizts.htm) there can be understood.. Please consider I'm not saying Venetians don't deserve their own page and their own respect, it's just like it isn't the same thing and, if you'd call it Venetian there'd probably be NO support from Triestin speakers. I think that the enthusiasm and support I received should be paid back somehow on Wikipedia. If you know a bit of history of the area I'm referring to, you would know it has been divided into borders for centuries, not having an official linguistical support didn't stop our "dialect" from being spolen until now, when Europe is opening the borders to its Eastern side, and I think that the Internet should be not only following this trend but looking into the future. I believe Wikipedia is the right place for this to happen. Arlon
      - Arlon, from a preliminary search of the internet, it seems that your opinion is out of touch with those of most speakers of Triestin. There are many websites written by Triestins talking about the "Triestin dialect... of Venet", "Triestin dialect", in fact many more than there are about "Triestin language". You have not proven anything, in fact you have just said "It is different, it has a long history and has absorbed from other languages" basically, but have not done anything like given us a translation of a text into one to compare to the translation in another (a good sample might be Pater Noster or the first article of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights). Also, from the dictionary it looks like only about 5% of the words are from Albanian, German, Slovak, etc. --63.226.56.135 01:25, 29 Jun 2005 (UTC) (node)

And now I have evidence so you can judge for yourselves.

The first 3 lines of the "Our Father" in "Standard Venet", and in Triestin...

Triestin: Pare Nostro
Ke Te son nei xełi
Sia santificado el tuo nome

"Standard Venet": Pare Nostro
Ka Te si nei xełi
Sia santificà el to nome

My personal judgement: the differences are vastly exaggerated by Arlon. However, I do support the creation of a Venet Wikipedia. --Node ue 04:40, 2 Jul 2005 (UTC)

I don't know where you got those translations but "K" is not used in Venetian nor in Triestin. As for "xeli" it's not even a word in those langueges. A better Triestin translation is: "Pare Nostro/ che te son in te'l ziel/ sia santificado el tuo nome" Starlite 14:30, 2 Jul 2005 (UTC)
- Come one, that's a question of spelling. Dialects/ regional languages so often have divergent spellings that coexist... But come on, let's create a Venetian Wikipedia asap. By the way, change this heading from "Triestin" to "~~Triestin~~ Venetian"? Caesarion 20:58, 2 Jul 2005 (UTC)
  - I disagree: "K" is not a letter in the Triestin alphabet, definetively not. "Xeli" is not a Triestin word, definetilvely not. "Che" is the word, not "Ke" - the sound may be the same, but "Ke" is just an abbreviation like "c u l8r" can be the abbraviation for "see you later", but nothing more. "Xeli" is not a Triestin word, in Triestin the only word with a "x" is "xe". And the only correct way to say "sky" in Triestin is "ziel". "Cel" or "ciel" is an italianized way to say it. It's not just a question of spelling. Starlite 20:05, 4 Jul 2005 (UTC)
    - Oh noes!!! Whatever shall WE DO!@!?!!? Sum1 used Venet speling 4 Trtisstn!!!11!one!!1eleven Obvsly "Xeli" is nt a Trsttn word~!!!!!!!!!!!11111111111 Nobody uses k!!!!!!!!11111111111111111 oh my!!!!!!111111111111111111 :p --Node ue 8 July 2005 07:33 (UTC)

In my opinion, Triestin is just a variant of Venetian, which could be a little different, but written is pratically the same; there are others variants of Venetian which are more different, for example those spoken in the island of Grado, so I oppose to this request--Klenje 6 July 2005 20:42 (UTC)

- - Now there is an official request for a Venetian Wikipedia. Venetian Triestin speakers can join with this one! - Adesso la richiesta per una Wikipedia in Veneto è stata ufficializzata e la test-wp/ven/ test-wikipedia è già impostata anche per gli utilizzatori che parlano il dialetto triestino. Ognuno potrà scrivere nel proprio dialetto, seguendo l'esempio della Wikipedia Alemannica! L'unione fa la forza| meta.Skafa o it.Skafa 13:47, 24 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  - IMHO a wider scope (=Venetian) would lead to a better encyclopedia here. Frankly, I don't think we should have Wikipedias written in individual city dialects. Arbeo 20:03, 5 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  - Triestin is clearly a variant of venetan language, also historically. I don't approve this request. People wanting a "Triestin" Wikipedia should join the venetan project!

support i see it as no differant from Malay and Indonesian's curcumstances