Requests for new languages/Wikipedia Riverense Portuñol
Riverense Portuñol Wikipedia and WiktionaryEdit
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- Approximate number of speakers: 100,000
- Location(s) spoken: Northern Uruguay
- Closely related languages: Brazilian Portuguese and Rioplatense Spanish
- Comments: The term portuñol is ambiguous, but it is the term used by the speakers of this language when refering to it. If you want to understand the different meanings of the term portuñol, there's a good article about it. In this document, the language I'm proposing here is called fronteiriço. Because of this ambiguity, the word riverense is added to the name. --Muñata 07:13, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
- Support - Because I feel that the phrase "a language is a dialect with an army and a navy" is true but unfair. --Muñata 07:23, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
- STRONG SUPPORT  Portuñol Riverense is NOT Portuñol which is a contact form of speaking like spanglish, but rather a real language! see the article. for yourself Qrc2006 02:36, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
- Support --Lin linao 06:34, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
- Neutral - I think that a continuum dialect is very unclear, ¿the standard is only in two cities?, maybe this wiki grow very slowly if exist few native speakers.--Taichi - (あ！) 15:00, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
- Being a dialect continuum doesn't seem to be a problem. For example, Alemannisch is a dialect continuum (see en:Alemannic German) and got its Wikipedia. Besides that, the dialect continuum is what Elizaincín calls DPU (dialectos portugueses del Uruguay). I'm being more specific when I added the word Riverense, to avoid this possible problems. There are more than 100,000 speakers, and the region covers the cities of Rivera / Santana do Livramento (between 150,000 and 200,000 inhabitants), part of the department of Artigas, part of the department of Tacuarembó, and the riverense cities of Tranqueras, Minas de Corrales and Vichadero (actually, all the department).
- Regarding the ammount of native speakers, AFAIK there is no such prerequisite, and there are examples of wikipedias which are doing very well, despite the language having few native speakers (please see: en:Wikipedia:Wikipedia articles per population). --Muñata 01:34, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
- Neutral - I surely wouldn't like to see Wikipedias for dozens of border/contact/code-switching language variants like "Spanglish" or "Chinglish" which is being requested above. But if this is a true creole which is stabilized enough to serve as a tool for conveying encyclopedic knowledge (which I can't really assess, of course), Riverense Portuñol might qualify. Needless to say that being able to write an encyclopedia requires some sort of orthographic standard or at least consensus, too. Arbeo 18:15, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
- This language (or dialect, I don't want to enter in that meaningless discussion) is not a simple code-switching. It is stabilized enough and it is a contact language for sure, but which language is not, to some extent? I'm sure that if it were not a language of the third world, and if the Uruguaian linguistic policy were not like it has been until now, this language/dialect would be more recognised and would have the same status as various languages of the world. I have a lot of them in my mind, but I don't want to mention them, because I think that they are in the right place, Portuñol Fronteiriço, is the one (as well as others) which is not in the place it deserves. --Muñata 02:35, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
- The kind of articles that I envision for this Portuñol Wikipedia, are articles of the list of articles that all wikipedia should have + articles about the language itself (that could be better expressed in his own words) + regional articles (that again, could be better expressed in words of his own people). I think that once this Wikipedia gains momentum, it could grow faster, because "fronteriso" speaking people are eager of expressing themselves in his mother tongue, after so much repression, stigmatization and discrimination.
- Being this said, I also know that a wikipedia needs a community and that it cannot be run only by one person (despite that I am a computer engineer and will have no problem in understanding the technichal issues of setting up a new Wikipedia, and that I could do it very fast). I'm trying to contact people that could be interested in this project.
- Another thing I want to say, is that if we cannot have a Wikipedia, at least we diserve to have a wiktionary. See for example this vocabulary. According to the rules, it has to be in wiktionaries, but portuñol riverense doesn't have a wiktionary yet. These definitions can be moved to the Spanish, Portuguese, English (or whatever) wiktionary; but would them be accepted in those wiktionaries, being from a language that doesn't have a wiktionary/wikipedia itself?
- This wiktionary could grow very fast. I know that I can add 1000 terms in few days, myself alone. And I also know that this wiktionary could attract the attention of the portuñol speaking community more than a wikipedia (is easier to write a dictionary definition than a full-fledged article), and after that, they will be attracted to the wikipedia also. --Muñata 02:35, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
- Eso me parece muy prudente. ¿Entonces por qué no empezar con el diccionario y hablar de la Wikipedia más tarde ? -- Arbeo 15:01, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
- SUPPORT only for wiktionary (N: native speaker of portuguese-brazilian dialect) 555 15:56, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
- I don't believe it's fair to label yourself as a native speaker. Your native language is Portuguese, your native dialect is Brasilian. Riverense is not your mother tongue, or at least you don't claim that way. --Node ue 23:38, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
- Strong Support for Riverense WP. Temos que creá ũa Wikipedia iñ Portuñol! --Node ue 23:38, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
- Es:En contra (on english below): sinceramente no creo que funcione. No se como será el caso particular de la frontera uruguayo-brasileña, pero en el caso de la argentina-brasileña (y te lo digo porque vive ahí durante 18 años) el portuñol no está bien definido, y termina no siendo el mismo el que habla una persona del que habla su vecino. Pero bueno, puede ser que en el caso de Uruguay y Brasil el portuñol esté más estandarizado, cosa que dudo. ¿En las escuelas de la frontera enseñan portuñol riverense?. Por otro lado vos decís que hay 100.000 hablantes de este llamemosle dialecto, habría que ver ¿cuántas personas de esas tienen conexión a internet? y ¿cuántas estarían dispuestas a colaborar en esa Wikipedia?. Yo creo que de esas 100.000 la cifra se reduciría a unos pocos. Así que no le veo futuro a una wikipedia en este idioma, con apenas una decena (como mucho) de colaboradores. Por otro lado Muñata, si me podrías decir ¿quien regula al portugués riverense? ¿O no hay reglas?. Eso es todo, saludos.
- En:(Oppose): sincerely, I don’t believe that it works. Not as it will be the particular case of the Uruguayan-Brazilian border, but in the case of Argentinean-Brazilian border (and I say that because I lived there during 18 years) portuñol/portunhol it is not defined, and it isn’t be the same for example in one person speak from his neighbor speaks. But, I don’t know if it is the case of Uruguayan - Brazilian border. I have some questions: In the schools of the border in which language teaches the classes? In portuñol riverense?. On the other hand, you said that are 100,000 speakers of this dialect, but we would be necessary to see whichever people of those have connection to Internet? And… whatever would be arranged to collaborate in that Wikipedia?. I believe that of those 100,000 people, the number would be reduced to few. So I can’t see future for this wikipedia.. Any question more to you Muñata, who or what regulates the riverense Portuguese? ? Or there are no rules?. That is all, greetings.
- Loco085 15:50, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
- As you say, AFAIK, talking with people from there, the situation in the Argentinan-Brazilian border is quite different, being more like pidgin or code-switching phenomena. Portuñol has developed in Uruguay since colonial times, because on that period these territories (North of nowadays Uruguay and Southern of nowadays Brazil) were no-one's land, and today is a true mixed language, but with a lot of mixing rules (which are not written but unconsciously in the mind of the people who speak it). You can't take randomly a word or a grammar rule of Spanish or Portuguese and use it. Is hard to explain it in this discussion. Regarding possible contributors and all that, let me remember you that Uruguay is one of the latin-american countries with more Internet access in proportion to its population; Rivera, Artigas, Tranqueras, Santana do Livramento are not in the middle of the jungle. So I'm sure that the willing contributors will come in. I didn't have much time to recruit people, and I'm far from there, now. They hardly will see this page for a given period of time. Regards ... --Muñata 15:09, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
- Oppose 101 edits on en:, 24 on meta, 332 on es, 12 on pt, 7 on de and 3 on la. Given that no other people willing to contribute have shown, that project wouldn't be able to go ahead. Platonides 16:32, 10 May 2006 (UTC).
- Other wikipedias have been approved without native speakers or people willing to contribute, and are waiting for contributors to come up, so please be fair. Why not to give time to this proposal?. And I don't understand what you want to say by showing my edits, and what it has to do with this discussion? Those are edits in other wikipedias and quality is what matters the most over quantity. I'm a native speaker and a very good contributor eager for starting developing the wikipedia. And don't forget than for now, I'm more interested in a wiktionary than a wikipedia, there's knowledge (for example, see this vocabulary containing more than 600 words), that needs to be in some place and I think that one of the wiki-projects is the best place for it. Best regards --Muñata 15:09, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
- Do you mean approved here? Or those approved when all iso-codes got a wikipedia?
- You can have time. If you get more people for this wiki, i can change my vote.
- The number of edits is important as they doesn't show you as a very-active wikipedist. It's not a bad thing. There is a world outside the wikipedia (serious), but being the only contributor for that wiki, it'd grow very slowly.
- If you're more interested in a wiktionary (easier than a wikipedia), go on. Why don't you start the proposed articles (i think meta has a sace for future wikis) ? You must also concerned that it may have a short live, until wiktionaryZ appears and eats all wiktionaries.
- 188.8.131.52 17:07, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
- hey! Have you read the first answer in this section of this same page? And you shouldn't oppose it only because of a code issue. Regards --Muñata 15:09, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
- Oppose It's not even a pidgin 184.108.40.206 19:46, 4 June 2006 (UTC) (Signing previous comment: Ejrrjs 19:46, 4 June 2006 (UTC))
- A favor. A Wiktionary would be very nice. I don't know about a Wikipedia, though. Taragui 12:52, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
- Oppose I'm brazilian, our language is Portuguese. It's completly ridiculous! Portuñol isn't a language, it's only a simple accent! --JoseLuizFilho 03:49, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
- Strong oppose In Portugal (I'm portuguese) portuñol is the expression used to describe 1 - portuguese people who speak poor spanish 2 - spanish people who speak poor portuguese! But it's just a JOKE! Epinheiro 10:18, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
- Strong Oppose Portuñol is not a language, it is poor spanish spoken by portuguese speakers or poor portuguese spoken by spanish speakers. The common word here is "poor". Mschlindwein msg 11:56, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
- Oppose Arges 13:31, 27 July 2006 (UTC) It's not necessary. "Portuñol" speakers would need to create words to write articles, or perhaps they would need to choose, with no criteria, between word in Portuguese and Spanish.