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Requests for new languages/Wikipedia Piacentino

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Piacentino Wikipedia

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submitted verification final decision
  This proposal has been closed as part of a reform of the request process.
This request has not necessarily been rejected, and new requests are welcome. This decision was taken by the language committee in accordance with the Language proposal policy.

The closing committee member provided the following comment:

This discussion was created before the implementation of the Language proposal policy, and it is incompatible with the policy. Please open a new proposal in the format this page has been converted to (see the instructions). Do not copy discussion wholesale, although you are free to link to it or summarise it (feel free to copy your own comments over). —{admin} Pathoschild 22:02:03, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Proposal summary
  • Language details: Piacentino (Piasintei, pc ISO 639-1)
  • Editing community: Ingc (P), Antani (N)
    List your user name if you're interested in editing the wiki. Add "N" next to your
    name if you are a native speaker of this language.
  • Relevant pages: —
  • External links:
  • "Dialetto piacentino" in the Italian Wikipedia
  • Dialetto Piacentino
Please read the handbook for requesters for help using this template correctly.
  • Number of speakers: About 300.000
  • Locations spoken: Province of Piacenza (Italy)

Piacentino is similar to Emiliano but there are also a bit of differences as after all among the dialects of each Emilian province; so it would become quite hard to put together every local dialect in just 1 regional dialect. Ingc 14:07, 31 December 2005 (CET)

  • Doubt, the article seems to indicate that Piacentino is a dialect, and it seems to be a subdivision of Emilian. Neither Piacentino nor Emilian has an article on any other Wikipedia than it:. On the other hand, Emilian seems to belong to no other group, not to Ligurian, not to Piedmontese, not to Lombard. I will support a general Emilian Wikipedia. Caesarion 20:07, 28 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. I grew up in Piacenza and i'll appreciate so much this project. I can be able to do something to support this project, if i have the time necessary. I think, furthermore, that Piacentino is a dialect sufficiently different from Dialetto Lombardo and Dialetto Emiliano to create a project about this language. --Antani 10:18, 30 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - I can't find any evidence that Piacentino is to be considered a distinct language (e. g. try searching for "lingua piacentina" on the Internet). Most sources are me telling me it is part (dialect) of the Emiliano-Romagnolo regional language. In my humble opinion it's neither necessary nor reasonable to create a separate Wikipedia for each and every Italian province. Arbeo 18:41, 4 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - Not even the supporters call this a language. Most definitaly not used for writing scientific works. -- Raetius 11:34, 10 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Er, Raetius... I didn't support either, but please, please keep in mind that the majority of all languages currently having a Wikipedia have seldom or never been used for scientific writing before. And yet some of them are booming. Caesarion 11:40, 10 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • Majority - I don't know but maybe a few, you might be right. But also think about how close this dialect is to Italian and how beneficial standardised languages are if you want to collect and distribute knowledge like we do here. If think it's very praiseworthy if people speak their local dialect but I doubt that it's always the right option for writing an encyclopedia, especially if there is a very close standard language. I'm not talking about cases like Basque, Breton or Maori here, they are a different matter. -- Raetius 12:10, 10 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
        • Yes, we can agree about that, but keep in mind that many regional languages in Europe are called dialects just because of the existence of a national state and a strong standardised language. This has been the case in Spain for a long time, and this is still the case in the Netherlands Germany, France and Italy a.o. (vz. Limburgish, Walloon and other Wikipedias). However, I am under the impression that this Piacentino is just a dialect of a much bigger regional language, and I think that you should really stop somewhere when granting different regional languages a Wikipedia. Btw I'd love to see some general guidelines of what we should accept and what we shouldn't - I think I'll propose some soon. Caesarion 13:13, 10 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • There are already other cases of wiki in dialects, such as Napoletano, Lombardo, Friulano, Veneto, Sardo, Siciliano and so on; so i don't understand what differences of causes there are; to accept some dialects or regional languages and other ones not? Ingc 17:33, 21 Jan 2006 (CET)

COMMENT Here is the difference... Neapolitan, Lombard, Sicilian, Venetian, Sardinian, etc. are languages (not dialects). In the modern world, most people think of Italy as a country that has "always been there." But please remember that Italy was NOT a country until 1860. Before this, existed the Kingdom of Sicily, the Kingdom of Naples, the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies, the Kingdom of Sardinia, the Republic of Venice, the Kingdom of Lombardy-Venetia, etc. In these individual kingdoms included their own languages, cultures, customs, histories, and in some cases banks, currencies, armies and navies. One needs to keep in mind that nearly three thousand years of documented history existed in this area of the Mediterranean basin before the Italian state was born in 1860!

For the above mentioned reasons, the linguistic situation in present day, modern Italy is a very complex issue. There were pre-Romance languages that existed before the Roman Empire spread its Latin language. Later, Latin broke down into different variations across different regions. Complicating this factor is that in the north, non-Romance languages like Germanic, Slavic, and Gallic advanced. In the south, Spanish, French, and non-Romance languages like Albanian and Greek added their characteristics, and in some cases replacing the Latin variations. Finally, in the islands (Sicily, Sardinia, Corsica), there was Spanish, French, Greek, Arabic and Turkish influence amongst others of less dominance.

How can all of these languages, variations, and dialects be organized, if they can even be organized at all? One highly respected reference is Ethnologue. One of the most respected sources of linguistic classification in Italy is Giovan Battista Pellegrini and his "Carta dei dialetti d'Italia", 1977, based on the work of "Sprach-und Sachatlas Italiens und der Südschweiz", 1928-1940. Click on the above link to see the map of how the languages are organized. Not surprisingly, the map closely follows the historical development of pre-Italy. The Kingdom of Sicily, including the peninsular portions of Calabria, and Puglia (Salento), compose the "Extreme Southern Language Group" referred to as Sicilian language. The Kingdom of Naples, including the capital of Naples, surrounding Campania, northern Calabria, northern Puglia, all of Basilicata, Molise, Abruzzo, southern Marche, and southeastern Lazio, compose the "Intermediate Southern Language Group" referred to as Neapolitan language. The former Papal States, including Rome, Lazio, Umbria, and central Marche, make up the "Southern Language Group" referred to as Romanesco. The list goes on.

While there may be wide differences among the dialects in this various language groupings, this can be expected. There will always be great linguistic diversity in Italy, but the above sources adequately organize these groups. Some characteristics are more subtle than others, but cacuminal dd is a trademark of the Sicilian group, while the schwa sound makes famous Neapolitan. And based upon some of these examples, there is no reason to carve out or create subdialects or dialects from variations of languages. Ethnologue, and the above map should clearly be used as a guide for linguistic organization and classification in Italy. If for no other reason, these references should be used by Wikepedia to create and ensure some sort of uniformity and standardization when dealing with the complex linguistic situation in Italy today.

Allowing Piacentino or Tarantino (dialects) to be used by Wikepedia (as languages) would be equivalent to allowing Western Sicilian, Pantesco, Central Metafonetica, Eastern Nonmetafonetica, Southeast Metafonetica, Messinese, Eolian, Central/Southern Calabro, Salentino, Tirrenic, Neapolitan proper, Cilentan, Southern Lazio, Central Lucanian, Norhwest/Northeast Lucanian, Archaic Calabro-Lucanian, Northern Calabrese, Apulo-Barese, Garganic, Dauno-Appenninic, Molisan, Teraman, Eastern Adriatic Abruzzese, Western Abruzzese and Southern Marchigian all as languages instead of simply just Neapolitan or Sicilian. VingenzoTM

REPLY About the things you said in last comment, I have to underline that there are also some cases of Wikipedia that aren't properly languages such as Corso, a "language" spoken by not more than 275.000 people and not so different from Sardo. Moreover the Neapolitan is few more that a provincial dialect, so I don't see so different allowing Neapolitan and the chance to allow Piacentino Wikipedia. I'm quite sure that in few months it could get the interests of many Users and reach a respectable number of articles. Ingc 0:19, 9 Feb 2006 (CET)

  • OPPOSE - I oppose starting a new Wikipedia in Piacentino, but I do support a new Wikipedia in Emilian language it:Dialetto Emiliano.

According to Ethnologue it is a separate language, belonging to the branch of the Western Romance Languages, and is also the only Gallo-Italic language that has no Wikipedia. We have Lombard, Ligurian, Venetian, Neapolitan, Sicilian and Sardinian edition. Why shouldn't we start a new Emilian Wikipedia? It's a matter of equity. Data for Emiliano ISO 639-1 {{{iso1}}} ISO 639-2 roa SIL EML (EN) SIL {{{sil2}}} We could create template for each variety and put it at the beginning of each article, as some other Wikipedias have done (ex. Lombard and Rumantsch). Having a new Wikipedia in Emilian could save this language from dying out steadily and help its three main varieties (Western, Central, Southern and Northeastern Emilian as well as Romagnolo) to be joined together and to melt into a unique variety.

REPLY I quite agree with the last proposal, that talks about creating an Emilian Wikipedia including a template for each variety in each article; I also think that it would be better split the emilian in more varieties of those ones specified in the prevouius opinion. About the ISO 639-1 I think it is very important that it represents very well the varietes included in Emilian language; so if it isn't yet specifed in official documents, i propose to use (EM) instead of (EN) and i believe that it would be better to use the ISO 639-1 for the main URL. Ingc 4 Mar 2006, 1h26 (CET)

  • Support to the last proposal of a unique emilian space with internal varieties. Obviously, there are historical reasons to keep these language-spaces separated, but they are political reasons, much as the reasons of the opponents to the very existence of independent Italian languages. If one has to be realistic, there are more chances of making a working Wikipedia in the emilian language by uniting a number of efforts, than by splitting into states that have long vanished into history. I suppose language should count more than politics, as far as Wikipedia is concerned. My warmest welcome to all emilian fellows. I shall be an interested reader, although emilian is definitely not my native language (but neither english, france and catalan are, and I still can read them. Are they to be classified as dialects of my language, too?) :)bertodsera 21 Mar 2006, 1h26 (CET)

Support nl:Boudewijn Idema, 13:45 , 19 March 2006 (UTC)

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