IRC office hours/Office hours 2014-01-22

[22:55:53] * James_F waves in anticipation.�
[22:56:32] * Philippe stretches�
[22:56:37] * Finnegan makes popcorn�
[22:56:55] * Philippe places order for popcorn�
[22:57:02] * James_F too.�
[22:57:24] <Finnegan> That'll be $8.95 per. For an extra 50 cents you can get a squirt of ulta-fake butter flavoring!
[22:57:39] * Philippe pitches in $1. I want extra.�
[22:57:44] <marktraceur> Finnegan: I'm in for popcorn, fake butter is mah favrite
[22:57:59] <Philippe> mah fav is artficial liquid cheez product!
[22:58:01] <Philippe> on nachos.
[22:58:08] <James_F> Oh dear.
[22:58:09] * Finnegan stores this away in "evidence of WMF having no taste" cabinet�
[22:58:13] <Philippe> lol
[22:58:13] <Finnegan> oh but fake cheez product is the best
[22:58:13] <James_F> I'm surrounded by Americans!
[22:58:19] <James_F> I mean, people with no taste.
[22:58:23] <James_F> Oh, but I repeat myself.
[22:58:40] * Philippe makes note to remind James_F of pub grub.�
[22:58:44] <Philippe> (dreadful stuff)
[22:58:50] <Finnegan> pasturized processed cheese product is true americana
[22:59:01] <Philippe> and we should take this from someone who lets MARMITE into their country?
[22:59:29] <James_F> I'm liberal in what I tollerate.
[22:59:38] <James_F> Just not in what I consume myself. :-)
[22:59:41] <Finnegan> like misspelling "tolerate"!
[22:59:41] <James_F> Anyway.
[22:59:47] <James_F> Psh.
[22:59:50] <DGarry> James_F: Not *entirely* surrounded. :)
[23:00:00] <Philippe> Ladies, Gentlemen, and James... it's time for office hours.
[23:00:06] <James_F> Hello!
[23:00:12] <marktraceur> Hm, DGarry is right, James_F is flanked by loads of Europeans now
[23:00:29] <Philippe> thanks for joining us today. Welcome along, I'm your cruise director...
[23:00:48] <Philippe> James is here to answer questions and take bribes for your fav bugs about VisualEditor
[23:01:11] <Philippe> Let's start by seeing if James has anything in particular to announce?
[23:01:14] <James_F> Yes, very happy to be bribed… I mean, reconsider priorities.
[23:01:30] <James_F> No particular "announcements" beyond the regular shipping of improvements and bug fixes.
[23:01:45] <Philippe> So we're continuing the improve. That's good. Let us know if that reverses, willya?
[23:01:47] <Risker> that's actually a pretty good place to start, James_F - what are the priorities now?
[23:01:52] <James_F> Recently we've added a keyboard shortcut dialog in the menu, (ultra!-)basic gallery editing, and some other things.
[23:02:12] <Philippe> Hey Risker :) Good question... priorities, James?
[23:02:15] <TMg_> what's "keyboard shortcut dialog"?
[23:02:36] <James_F> Risker: Sure! The number one priority for VisualEditor is improving the core workflow for adding citations.
[23:03:07] <James_F> Right now you have to know to add a reference, then inside that reference add a transclusion, then know the name of the specific template that you want to add, then hope it has TemplateData, then…
[23:03:17] <James_F> This is (a) not fun, and (b) not easy to find.
[23:03:27] <James_F> And VisualEditor's job is mostly to achieve both of those.
[23:03:58] <James_F> We circulated some designs with the community back in October, iterated them a few times, and we're now towards the end of implementation.
[23:04:02] <James_F> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/VisualEditor/Design/Reference_Dialog is the main page about that.
[23:04:12] <Philippe> (TMg_, I see your question, we'll take it next)
[23:04:45] <James_F> Obviously, nice screenshots butter no parsnips, so I'm expecting more "real" feedback once we've got it into a test wiki so people can use it and tell us what works (and what needs improvement).
[23:05:26] <James_F> Once that's done, it will be two clicks (once on the reference button, a second on "insert") to create a citation template inside a reference, using whatever templates the community wants to highlight there.
[23:05:37] <Risker> improving the ref flow is important. I've been kicking the tires lately and it's pretty challenging - and I know what I'm doing (more or less)
[23:05:44] <James_F> Yeah, agreed.
[23:05:46] <Philippe> James, any other priorities?
[23:06:07] <Philippe> (if not, TMg_ asks "what's "keyboard shortcut dialog"?")
[23:06:17] * JD|cloud waves�
[23:06:38] <Philippe> Hi JD|cloud :)
[23:06:57] <James_F> Beyond citations, we're also working on media settings (left/right, thumb/inline, size, alt text, etc.), behavioural magic words (#REDIRECT, DISPLAYTITLE, etc.), in-line language setting (important for RTL languages especially) and HTML comment viewing and editing.
[23:07:37] <James_F> There's also a huge amount of work underway on performance (which I know is an on-going issue), bugs (of course), and minor fixes.
[23:08:08] <Risker> James_F, I suspect that there may be some performance improvement once ULS is reworked
[23:08:08] <James_F> I could I suppose list things we're not currently focussing on, which might be interesting (especially in a relatively-priorities sense) if people are interested.
[23:08:21] * Philippe is.�
[23:08:22] <James_F> Risker: Well, right now ULS is disabled, which has led to a huge performance increase.
[23:08:36] <James_F> Risker: But it's going to get re-enabled quite soon, so we can't "bank" that.
[23:09:01] <James_F> (Performance increase is mostly for reading pages; ULS only made VE a bit worse. Still much more to do."
[23:09:06] <James_F> Philippe: OK.
[23:10:18] <James_F> So, things that I know people are keen on but we're not actively working on include table structure editing (insert a row/column, etc.), language variants (for Chinese support), switching back and forth between VE and the wikitext editor, and section editing.
[23:10:44] * TMg_ want's to know where to vote for keeping ULS opt-in�
[23:10:57] <Philippe> TMg_: No such vote of which I'm aware, sorry :)
[23:11:10] <James_F> These have been de-prioritised because I think other things are more urgent; it's not that I'm saying they're not important.
[23:11:22] <Philippe> Thanks, James
[23:11:41] <Risker> section editing would still be useful
[23:11:48] <James_F> For example, section editing will require a complete re-evaluation of how the back-end of VE works. Can we do it? Yes. The question is, at what cost (section editing will probably slow VE down).
[23:12:46] <Risker> I find that counterintuitive, James_F, since section editing speeds up in wiki-editing
[23:13:48] <James_F> Other things that are delayed waiting on other teams include deployment to some other wikis (some are fine right now, others are delayed – Meta is delayed because the Translate extension is incompatible with the modern expectations in MediaWiki from Parsoid and VisualEditor; Wikisource is delayed until we can find a way to work with the ProofreadPage extension, which is critical there), in-page media upl
[23:13:48] <James_F> oad (the Multimedia team are looking are re-working UploadWizard so we can do that) and a few others.
[23:14:03] <Eloquence> The criterion for success to me are "Are large pages editable without unacceptable latency". Section editing in a manner similar to wikitext section editing may or may not be the solution for that in VE.
[23:14:20] <Eloquence> Clearly right now the latency on large pages is unacceptable.
[23:14:48] <James_F> Risker: Yeah, it is counter-intuitive. Sorry. :-( Right now we're using the Parsoid HTML to edit with VisualEditor. When that becomes the read HTML, switching to VE might be near-instant for editors (but to do that would take a lot of memory for each tab).
[23:14:57] <JD|cloud> IMHO using too much JS is going to make it too top heavy
[23:15:15] <James_F> Risker: If we instead need to edit sections, we may need to fetch something other than what's on the page right now.
[23:15:22] * JD|cloud also remembers something about integrating VE w/ Flow�
[23:15:35] <James_F> Which means another network trip. Another wait. Another re-encoding in JS into an editable document.
[23:15:40] <Philippe> JD|cloud, I'll add that to thte questions list?
[23:16:15] <James_F> There are lots of costs and benefits to each of the possible approaches, and we need to properly sit down and work out which one is best in terms of being able to edit long and small pages alike, without making it impossibly resource-intensive or slow.
[23:16:17] <JD|cloud> which comment? too much js or flow?
[23:16:27] <Philippe> the flow.. but i can add either :)
[23:16:37] <Philippe> I just took the other as a comment :)
[23:17:21] <James_F> TMg_: The ULS thing is likely to end up with the sections each being differently opt-in or on-by-default depending on user need, but I'm not personally involved in that (just an interested bystander) so you should probably follow the discussions that are happening about that on Bugzilla, sorry.
[23:17:43] <James_F> JD|cloud: I can answer both if you want. :-)
[23:17:57] <Philippe> James_F... TMg was asking about the keyboard shortcut dialogue?
[23:17:58] <JD|cloud> yeah both would ge good
[23:18:05] <James_F> Oh, sorry, TMg_ first. :-)
[23:18:38] <Philippe>  :)
[23:18:54] <James_F> If you load VE on a wmf11 wiki (so right now MediaWiki.org and test and test2 only), and click in the page menu (the three parallel horizontal bars), there's now an option at the bottom called "Keyboard shortcuts".
[23:18:57] <James_F> See e.g. on https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/VisualEditor?veaction=edit
[23:19:13] <James_F> This is also accessible through Ctrl+/ (as indeed it tells you).
[23:19:28] <Eloquence> handy :)
[23:19:38] <Philippe> Quite.
[23:19:39] <James_F> It's a nice way to bring quick-workflow tools to higher prominence to users (and shamelessly stolen from Google Docs).
[23:19:41] * Philippe likes it.�
[23:20:00] <Philippe> OK, JD|cloud had a couple of questions, James
[23:20:11] <DGarry> Sweeeet.
[23:20:12] <James_F> One of the important things about VisualEditor is that it's not "just for newbies", it's meant to be for everyone – and making editing faster for both new and experienced editors alike.
[23:20:14] <James_F> Yeah.
[23:20:17] <James_F> So…
[23:20:36] <James_F> In terms of client-side (browser) load from the VE codebase, that's something we're aware of and have some approaches to reduce.
[23:20:51] * TMg_ thought the keyboard shortcuts could be edited :(�
[23:20:52] <Philippe> you're talking about the javascripting question, yes?
[23:20:59] <James_F> TMg_: Sorry.
[23:21:02] <James_F> Philippe: Yes.
[23:21:34] <James_F> We've engineered VE to be highly modular; right now we don't use that to load different modules on different pages (or load things that are needed only as the user wants them).
[23:22:03] <James_F> We might move in that direction in time, though we think there are more obvious (and less potentially problematic) ways to reduce footprint.
[23:22:29] <James_F> Right now VE's primary load is the page, not the code.
[23:23:23] <James_F> This is because we store the original HTML (you were reading it), the Parsoid HTML (which we fetched from the server), a linear model of this, and then the display CE surface with hundreds to hundreds of thousands of objects that represents the (editable) page you can interact with.
[23:23:35] <Philippe> OK, the second question from JD|cloud had to do with the integration to Flow....
[23:24:06] <James_F> We hope to be able to combine the first two, which will save a few megs (depending on the page length), but reducing the bloat from the second two is more challenging and something we're working on a bunch.
[23:24:14] <James_F> "A bunch" being, clearly, the technical term. :-)
[23:24:23] <James_F> Yeah, JD|cloud's second question:
[23:24:50] <James_F> So right now we're working with the Flow team (and also the Mobile and Language teams) to help them integrate VisualEditor into Flow.
[23:25:21] <James_F> I know that they struggled a little with fitting it into their development, so it's missing from the initial test release of Flow on MediaWiki.org right now.
[23:25:54] <James_F> But we expect to help them get this up and running soon.
[23:25:55] <Ironholds> it's not going to be present in the enwiki release, at least initially (we deploy in about a week) either
[23:26:10] <James_F> Yeah, "soon" doesn't mean "next week" here, sorry.
[23:26:37] * TMg_ had a dream about a VE plugin for WordPress ...�
[23:26:38] <Ironholds> indeed; I was clarifying the statement before that ;p
[23:26:43] <Philippe> So, James... from some presubmitted questions: James_F: Are there any functionalities from the original editor that "will not" be introduced in VE, atleast in the short to mid-term basis?
[23:26:51] <James_F> JD|cloud: Maryana (and other Flow team members) can speak more about what that will look like and how it will operate, but it will be coming.
[23:27:07] <JD|cloud> sure, that would work
[23:27:22] <James_F> TMg_: That's actually something we'd love to happen, though it's a bit out of scope of Wikimedia's development priorities, sorry. If you'd be interested, we'd love to help.
[23:27:25] <James_F> Philippe: Thanks.
[23:27:50] <James_F> So… in general, no, our approach is to allow you to do almost anything in VE that you can in wikitext.
[23:28:26] <James_F> There are some examples of mistaken wikitext that won't be possible in VE – for example, our interface will let you set __INDEX__, __NOINDEX__ or neither (and so have the default).
[23:28:29] * Philippe ccan't help but notice that "almost"�
[23:28:38] * Philippe notices that clarification too�
[23:29:01] <James_F> In wikitext you can set both of those (and I honestly don't know which takes precedence – the first, probably?), but VisualEditor won't allow you to do that because it doesn't make any sense.
[23:29:53] <James_F> But templates will all be usable, references similarly, media options will be full-fat some time soon (… he claims) and in general I'd want to see everything people do to articles in wikitext available in VE.
[23:30:17] <James_F> That said, we're not intending to enable VisualEditor in some namespaces, because it doesn't make sense there.
[23:30:25] <Philippe> James_F: when you're done with that question, we've got another....you touched on it earlier, but someone was asking fior "an approximate timeline by which we can expect citation functionality and speed improvement."
[23:30:43] <James_F> The MediaWiki: namespace mostly consists of fragments of text (not even valid wikitext in all cases, let alone valid HTML).
[23:31:00] <James_F> The Template: namespace is similarly a mess and wouldn't really benefit from VisualEditor.
[23:31:25] <Philippe> So those namespaces will, for the foreseeable future, continue to be edited in wikitext?
[23:31:59] <James_F> The * Talk: namespaces will be handled by Flow, as will "discussion" type pages in the Wikipedia: namespace; VisualEditor will be used for the contents of topic posts inside Flow, and for the header text if there's any on the page, intead.
[23:32:01] <James_F> +s
[23:32:03] <James_F> Correct.
[23:32:56] <Philippe> Good to know.  :)
[23:33:05] <James_F> To skip to the next question, the timeline on citations is not firmly set in stone beyond "as soon as we think it's good enough".
[23:33:50] <James_F> We don't want to release it before it's ready, but similarly there's no reason to hold back once we're happy with it (and, more importantly, we've had some feedback and know how well it works for new and experienced users alike).
[23:34:02] * Philippe nods. Thanks.�
[23:34:13] <James_F> For "performance", it's a bit like measuring sand dunes.
[23:34:32] <James_F> VE is much faster than it was 6 months ago (and 3 months ago, for that matter).
[23:35:08] <Philippe> I'm sorry, but i'm missing the sand dunes analogy :)
[23:35:17] <James_F> The speed improvements will vary by user (depending on the speed of your computer and network connexion) and page (length is a big factor), and to a small extent the load on the Wikimedia servers that hour.
[23:35:41] <James_F> Sand dunes: you can use a stick to draw a line, but it's impossible to know if it shifted over-night.
[23:35:47] <Philippe> ahhhhh
[23:35:48] <Philippe> got it
[23:36:24] <James_F> Most of the speed improvements we've made are for users with lower Internet connexion speeds; there's still a lot of client-side work to do (in terms of memory and CPU).
[23:36:32] <Philippe> When you're done, James, we have a question from an IP @mediawiki.org - but first, I want to reality check and see if there are further questions from anyone here?
[23:36:45] <James_F> Some of the new features we add increase, rather than decrease, the load, so that's something we're watching for.
[23:36:59] <James_F> (That's me done for that question, though happy to take follow-ups of course.)
[23:37:16] <Philippe> follow-ups, or new questions from the room?
[23:37:46] <Philippe> If not, know that James has prepared an aria from "La Traviatta", which he will be singing at us when we're done here.. so you'll want lots of questions. To fill the time.
[23:37:50] <TMg_> any change in the targeted browsers recently?
[23:38:26] <James_F> TMg_: No; we've not changed the support matrix in the last year.
[23:38:36] <Philippe> (IP @ mediawiki.org: How's it going with the standalone version?)
[23:39:01] <James_F> TMg_: To expand, that means we expect to work fully in Firefox 15+, Chrome 19(?)+, Safari 6+.
[23:39:04] <Risker> I was trying to figure out how to do piped wikilinks the other day, and the "user guide" didn't help at all there. I can't decide if it is not possible, or if it is not described
[23:39:18] <James_F> Oh, and Opera 10+
[23:39:21] <TMg_> ... Opera 12? :)
[23:39:26] <Risker> *determine as oppose to decide
[23:39:36] <TMg_> still says I'm not supported. ;)
[23:39:55] <James_F> Well, yes, because no-one's done a full testing suite in Opera yet. :-(
[23:40:22] <James_F> There's work on-going for Internet Explorer support, though sadly that milestone seems to recede with every new bug we find in IE that we have to work around.
[23:40:46] <James_F> Risker: When you say "how to do piped wikilinks", what do you mean?
[23:41:11] <Risker> the equivalent of [[Wikipedia|that thingy]]
[23:41:16] <James_F> Ah.
[23:41:47] <James_F> So type "that thingy", select it, make a link (Ctrl+K), type in "Wiki…" until you see the one you want, select it.
[23:41:55] * jorm blinks.�
[23:42:06] <Risker> I mean...the user guide mentions them but doesn't say how to do it...and I absolutely couldn't figure it out by trial and error
[23:42:23] * Philippe carries the note on description back to Maggie to update the userguide�
[23:42:25] <Risker> and no, no shortcuts, please
[23:42:39] <TMg_> Risker: https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=51438 may be relevant
[23:42:39] <Philippe> (you can press the link button instead of Ctrl+k)
[23:42:56] <Philippe> (the key is typing the text first, and then highlighting it, then hitting the link button)
[23:42:58] <James_F> Alternatively, in a blank spot, make a link (Ctrl+K), type in "Wiki…" until you see the one you want, select it, then edit the newly-inserted text for the link (it will say "Wikipedia") to say what you instead want it to say.
[23:43:14] <Risker> there was also poor description on how to modify internal links
[23:43:23] <James_F> But the second way is clunky.
[23:44:08] <James_F> You modify internal and external links in the same fashion – click on a link, click the pop-up link icon, edit the link box (optionally using the suggestions) until you're happy, press return (or just click away).
[23:44:53] <James_F> TMg_: Hmm, yeah, I need to triage that bug.
[23:45:19] <Philippe> Risker, any further questions on that?
[23:45:39] <James_F> TMg_: Though that's a really major design decision that we've re-visited a few times since 2010 and kept the current choice…
[23:45:59] <Risker> hmmm...when I "click" on a link, it gives me a dropdown box, and it's not intuitive that I can choose something else
[23:47:02] <Risker> well, it's inconsistent. Sometimes there's a box for me to type in if I want, and sometimes that box seems to be covered by the options list
[23:47:11] <James_F> Risker: OK. What would make it intuitive?
[23:47:48] <Risker> well, the first three links I tried on a random page, the dropdown list covered the editing box
[23:47:49] <James_F> Risker: That shouldn't happen except once a week per wiki when MediaWiki's CSS purge means you lose the original layout (and certainly shouldn't happen the second time you open a link inspector in an edit).
[23:47:55] <Risker> the next two, I got an editing box
[23:48:04] <James_F> That's not good.
[23:48:10] <Risker> yeah
[23:48:16] <James_F> Could you take some screenshots and file a bug (or just e-mail them to me)?
[23:48:23] <Risker> of the VE editing I've done lately, links were the biggest problem
[23:48:28] <James_F> That certainly sounds very bizzare.
[23:48:36] <Philippe> Yeah, I can't recreate that....
[23:48:40] <James_F> Also bizarre, for those that can spell.
[23:48:47] <Risker>  :)
[23:48:56] <Risker> I'll try to recreate it again later
[23:49:16] <Risker> because obviously when I moved on, the first attempts were closed
[23:49:20] <James_F> Yeah.
[23:49:44] <James_F> Anyway, I've failed to answer that IP's question (which I will now).
[23:49:51] <Philippe> (IP @ mediawiki.org: How's it going with the standalone version?)
[23:51:18] <James_F> A stand-alone client for VisualEditor is effectively built now; we might package it as a clearly distinct thing, but we've split the repos (VisualEditor itself is now in VisualEditor/VisualEditor.git; it's "just" the MediaWiki- and Wikimedia-specific bits that are now in mediawiki/extensions/VisualEditor.git), and given it i18n support through jQuery.i18n (removing the last MediaWiki dependency).
[23:51:46] <James_F> That said, using VE without a CMS back-end like MediaWiki would be hard.
[23:52:14] <James_F> VE has ~ 400 files that, thanks to ResourceLoader, are minified and crushed down to just one; going without this would be painful.
[23:52:50] <James_F> We're optimistic about VE being integrated with other systems (like WordPress or Drupal or …) and would be happy to help anyone who wanted to do that, but we're not working on it right now.
[23:53:01] <Philippe> OK.  :)
[23:53:09] <Philippe> So, we have about 7 more minutes andI'm out of questions....
[23:53:13] <TMg_> (Follow up to editing links: I'm always afraid I will loose my work when clicking a link so I avoid it at all costs. Possible solution: Use an other link color.)
[23:53:28] <James_F> http://bits.beta.wmflabs.org/static-master/extensions/VisualEditor/lib/ve/demos/ve/#!/src/pages/aliens.html is a stand-alone demo we built for VisualEditor that shows the bare-bones version.
[23:53:58] <James_F> TMg_: Use another link colour for links that are not yet created, you mean? Or just in general?
[23:54:02] <JD|cloud> Just thought of this: will users be able to customize their CSS/JS for VisualEditor?
[23:54:19] <Risker> Yeah, some really in-depth discussion of links, editing existing ones, and piped links, is needed. I still can't really figure it out, and the explanation in this channel is much better than in the user guide
[23:54:31] <TMg_> All links in VE. Don't use the same blue if clicking does not activate the link but edits it.
[23:55:05] <James_F> JD|cloud: Yes, user-land CSS and JS customisation works already - though the classes are "new" to those familiar with MW's existing customisation paths.
[23:55:30] * Risker thinks that it would be useful to find another word besides "transclusion" for "templates"�
[23:55:37] <James_F> TMg_: Hmm. I think that that would conflict with the intent for VisualEditor to look as similar as possible to "read" mode (there's meant to be almost* no change between them).
[23:55:59] <Risker> half of experienced wikimedians don't know what "transclusion" means, newbies certainly won't
[23:56:05] <TMg_> It's not similar anyway. Clicking the links does something different. This should be visible.
[23:56:09] <James_F> Risker: Agreed, except we're using "transclusion" because it's not just templates, but also magic words, parser functions and more.
[23:56:26] <Risker> break them up then, James_F
[23:56:47] <Risker> because using words that people don't understand isn't helpful
[23:56:54] <James_F> TMg_: Right click and select "open in new tab" or middle click and they work fine, though…
[23:57:15] <TMg_> use a *slightly* different color then?
[23:57:38] <James_F> Risker: Sure; we've said for months that as soon as someone comes up with a workable term we'll switch to it in seconds. "Template" isn't it.
[23:57:53] <James_F> TMg_: Possibly; file an enhancement so we don't forget?
[23:58:16] <Risker> how about "template" and "magic word" and "parser function" then?
[23:58:29] <JD|cloud> oh, speaking of which, what about Wikidata integration?
[23:58:40] <James_F> TMg_: Also, both VE and the wikitext editor warn you about leaving without saving changes.
[23:58:55] <Risker> Wikidata integration is pretty much antithetical to Visual Editor, JD|cloud
[23:59:01] <James_F> Risker: I think labelling the option "Insert template, magic word, parser function or Wikidata call" would be a mess.
[23:59:14] <Risker> give people options
[23:59:15] <JD|cloud> James_F: why not give it a symbol?
[23:59:16] <James_F> Risker: Even German has a shorter label than that.
[23:59:21] <James_F> JD|cloud: It has a symbol.
[23:59:25] <Philippe> James_F- I think Risker meant using different options for the three :)
[23:59:29] <JD|cloud> and then when you mouse over, you get the extended description
[23:59:40] <James_F> Philippe: But it's one function; they can't be separated.
[23:59:59] <Risker> James_F, the different labels can all lead back to the same function
[00:00:23] * JD|cloud g2g�
[00:00:31] <James_F> Risker: I think that that's really bad and confusing design - five buttons that all do the same thing?
[00:00:54] <James_F> Risker: Also, "template" isn't correct, and doesn't mean anything to a lay person either.
[00:00:56] <Risker> it's better than having one button labeled with a word that isn't technically correct either, and is poorly understood
[00:01:09] <James_F> Risker: Hence why we want a word that people understand.
[00:01:16] <James_F> Which word isn't correct?
[00:01:20] <Risker> transclusion
[00:01:22] <James_F> "Transclusion"?
[00:01:25] <James_F> It… is.
[00:01:30] <Risker> magic words aren't transcluded
[00:01:34] <James_F> It's an arbitrary wikitext transclusion.
[00:01:46] <Philippe> OK, folks, we're out of time.... As always, thanks for coming.... I'm going to bail out now, and I think James has a meeting coming up shortly, so I don't know how long he can stay. But as always, thanks for beign here :-) I'll post the log on meta ;)
[00:01:47] <James_F> Sure they are. They're function calls transcluded into the page.
[00:02:01] <James_F> Yeah, sorry that I have to run to a meeting.
[00:02:05] <Risker> have fun everyone at the Architecture Summit
[00:02:13] <Philippe> Architecture.  :)
[00:02:18] <Philippe> See ya'll! :)
[00:02:18] <James_F> Thank you for the questions, and sorry if I didn't answer all of them enough (or to your liking).
[00:02:20] <James_F> Bye all!