IRC office hours/Office hours 2013-07-18b
Topic: Multimedia plans and new feature ideas.
Hosts: Fabrice Florin, Rob Lanphier, Mark Holmquist, Brian Wolff
Time: 18:00-19:20 UTC
Timestamps are in Pacific Daylight Time (PDT)
fabriceflorin: Hi guys, if you are interested in multimedia, we invite you to join our community IRC chat today in 5 mins, at 18:00 UTC (11:00am PDT), on this 'office hours' channel . Learn more here: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Village_pump#Join_an_IRC_Chat_about_Multimedia_this_Thursday
[10:54am] brion: \o/
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[10:54am] marktraceur: fabriceflorin: I already spammed -commons
[10:55am] Trizek: Hi there !
[10:55am] marktraceur: Howdy Trizek!@
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[10:55am] fabriceflorin: Hi Trizek :
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[10:55am] ragesoss: fabriceflorin: FYI, I sent an off-list reply to Scott MacLeod to clarify that the meeting today is on IRC.
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[10:56am] fabriceflorin: ragesoss: Thanks so much for doing that!
[10:56am] ragesoss: np
[10:56am] fabriceflorin: Trizek: Je suis bien content que tu peux nous joindre aujourd'hui. Je répondrai demain à ton bon message sur Echo et AFT.
[10:56am] bawolff: Should we send a "this is happening now" to wikitech-l?
[10:56am] Trizek: fabriceflorin: cool
[10:57am] bawolff: and commons-l?
[10:57am] fabriceflorin: bawolff: You're welcome to do this if you like. I'm going to stay here and welcome our guests ;o)
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[11:00am] fabriceflorin: OK folks, welcome to our IRC Chat on Multimedia!
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[11:00am] fabriceflorin: How many folks are here for the IRC chat on Multimedia? Can you briefly introduce yourself and let us know why you are interested in multimedia?
[11:01am] robla joined the chat room.
[11:01am] helianth: Hello All
[11:01am] bawolff: hi
[11:01am] robla: yo yo yo
[11:01am] brion: \o I'm brion and I've been poking at MediaWiki since … forever. Intereted in making our media experiences more awesome.
[11:01am] jorm joined the chat room.
[11:01am] fabriceflorin: I would like to introduce members of our new multimedia team: bawolff , marktraceur , robla , who will join me in answering questions and ideas.
[11:02am] bawolff: I'm bawolff (Brian in real life)
[11:02am] fabriceflorin: You can read more about our multimedia plans on this project page: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Multimedia
[11:02am] marktraceur: Hi, I'm Mark Holmquist, I'm the frontend developer for the Multimedia team. I've been working on UploadWizard for about a year now and I'm currently hacking on a new extension called BetaFeatures which will make it easier to control what beta-status features you have enabled on wikis.
[11:02am] kleinerMann: Hi guys, I am Isderion from commons and de.wp; I upload images and sometimes vidoes and can't wait until server-side transcoding is enabled
[11:02am] Thehelpfulone: fabriceflorin, you must like to chat, IRC Chat = Internet Relay Chat Chat
[11:02am] fabriceflorin: hey brion, kleinerMann : thanks for joining the chat!
[11:02am] YuviPanda: hey, I'm also here
[11:03am] twkozlowski: kleinerMann: It is enabled.
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[11:03am] YuviPanda: YuviPanda, randomly code-around now and then also work on the Mobile Team
[11:03am] marktraceur: YuviPanda: Well, then introduce yerself!
[11:03am] Dmcdevit: Hi, I'm Dominic. I participated in the roundtable last week. I am the Wikipedian in Residence at the Smithsonian and Wikimedia DC Cultural Partnerships Coordinator.
[11:03am] fabriceflorin: Hello helianth , Thehelpfulone and YuviPanda : so glad you could join us!
[11:03am] Trizek: Hi ! I'm Trizek. I think Commons is the best multimedia plateform ever, but without a good interface. Let's change it !
[11:03am] robla: I'm Rob Lanphier....I'm managing (most of) the WMF developers working on Multimedia stuff. (The mobile team does a lot in this area too)
[11:03am] Dmcdevit: I deal a lot with large uploads and metadata issues as well as public outreach events with newbies, because of my work with cultural institutions.
[11:03am] quiddity_: Hi, I'm Quiddity from en:wp. I'm curious about the new features that are being proposed, and interested in learning about workflow efficiency problems.
[11:03am] Thehelpfulone: One question I have (feel free to answer whenever, if you're doing introductions first), will your team be working on getting videos to work on mobiles too?
[11:04am] Fae_mobile: (Fae) I'm interested as a 'high volume' media contributor to Commons, and someone who has helped out with a lot of poor uploads from new users via mobile platforms.
[11:04am] guillom: Hi; I'm Guillaume, and I used to be the product manager for the multimedia usability project. I'm theoritically not working today but I thought I'd idle around here just in case I could be useful
[11:04am] kleinerMann: twkozlowski: where?
[11:04am] prtksxna: Hey! I am prtksxna! Here to listen
[11:04am] guillom: -i+e
[11:04am] helianth: Hello Fabrice
[11:04am] twkozlowski: kleinerMann: If you upload a video, you can download it in a different format.
[11:04am] fabriceflorin: In today's 60 min. IRC chat, we'd like to cover these topics: 1 Your workflows + issues, 2 Multimedia map + overview, 3 Media viewer, 4 File notifications, 5 Feedback + curation, 5 New Gallery Layout
[11:04am] bawolff: Thehelpfulone: that's an interesting question
[11:05am] brion: we have no MP4/H.264 support yet tho -- that's still an issue for mobile
[11:05am] fabriceflorin: We will be using these slides as a guideline for discussing some of these topics: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/File:Multimedia-Project-Slides-July-18-2013.pdf
[11:05am] marco09127: @ but you can only upload ogv or webm
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[11:05am] twkozlowski: And .ogg and .flac for audio.
[11:05am] marco09127: @twkozlowski
[11:06am] kleinerMann: twkozlowski: i actually want to upload videos in the file format that my camera produces (usually non-free); before uploading i have to transcode it
[11:06am] bawolff: twkozlowski: and .wav
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[11:06am] fabriceflorin: Hello Dmcdevit , quiddity_ , guillom , twkozlowski marco09127: so glad you could join us! We really have a great discussion group here ….
[11:06am] YuviPanda: bawolff: wave got enabled?
[11:06am] bawolff: kleinerMann: For reference what format is that?
[11:06am] bawolff: YuviPanda: yep
[11:06am] twkozlowski: bawolff: then perhaps Dmcdevit might want to upload the original JFK files to Commons?
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[11:06am] bawolff: YuviPanda: Only for wav files containing pcm data
[11:06am] fabriceflorin: So I would like to open the discussion by asking you to describe some of the multimedia workflows you use regularly on Commons and Wikipedia, and identify some of the issues you think need to be solved for those workflows.
[11:07am] YuviPanda: bawolff: of course. Transcoded on the server to ogg, hopefully?
[11:07am] bawolff: yep
[11:07am] helianth: I'm Scott MacLeod, and am interested in Wikimedia Commons Multimedia vis-a-vis a wiki project I'm developing: C.C. WUaS.
[11:07am] bawolff: YuviPanda: Primary use case is for Rahul21's gsoc project
[11:07am] JeanFred: Hey folks
[11:07am] fabriceflorin: What's a specific multimedia workflow where you think improvement is most needed? What is the cause of that pain point? How could it be solved practically?
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[11:07am] YuviPanda: bawolff: sweet. I'll also add it to the android app now.
[11:07am] twkozlowski: OK, so I've been uploading Ogv files to Commons for a while now, and have recently discovered my instance of ffmpeg supports WebM too (yay!)
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[11:08am] twkozlowski: /Not/ having to convert them would make me insanely happy.
[11:08am] JeanFred: (thought I could not join because with the QA workshop − was confused with time zones Yet Again >_>)
[11:08am] kleinerMann: bawolff: avi and mov
[11:08am] • JeanFred poke Trizek & guillom
[11:08am] fabriceflorin: twkozlowski: So glad we could start with some good news : ) Are there any important workflows where you think improvements are needed to make your life easier?
[11:08am] YuviPanda: fabriceflorin: as someone who would like to upload things from Mobile, not having support for ingesting h264 / aac is a major pain point
[11:08am] • guillom chatouille JeanFred.
[11:09am] • Trizek hugs JeanFred
[11:09am] YuviPanda: fabriceflorin: being able to upload those directly and have the server take care of transcoding them into free formats would be very, very nice.
[11:09am] fabriceflorin: Salut JeanFred -- and welcome back : )
[11:09am] brion: YuviPanda: so that's still in legal's court
[11:09am] twkozlowski: fabriceflorin: yes, on-the-fly conversion during upload.
[11:09am] bawolff: In regards to h264, I believe there are legal things that need to be worked out
[11:09am] brion: the tech should be ready to go....
[11:09am] JeanFred: Hey fabriceflorin
[11:09am] bawolff: but the conversations are happening afaik
[11:09am] guillom: fabriceflorin: btw, I just wanted to make sure you were aware of all the existing documentation at https://usability.wikimedia.org/wiki/Multimedia:Hub and linked pages. There's a lot we couldn't do in the 1 year we had for the multimedia usability project, and most of the research and proposed solutions are still relevant.
[11:09am] • marktraceur wonders where lvillaWMF is
[11:10am] JeanFred: twkozlowski: Could you share your ffmpeg settings ?
[11:10am] Trizek: fabriceflorin: when you click on a picture on Wikipedia, you open a new page. This is not good for user. If you change this (open the picture on a pop-up), you will hide Commons. Not simple.
[11:10am] guillom: marktraceur: trolling about free licenses somewhere?
[11:10am] fabriceflorin: YuviPanda: Good suggestion about uploading H264 as part of the upload process. We're are exploring possible licensing solutions with our legal team on that front.
[11:10am] twkozlowski: JeanFred: ffmpeg -i file.mp4 file.webm
[11:10am] bawolff: guillom: Indeed, we've been looking at that page a lot during planning
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[11:10am] guillom: bawolff: ok, great to hear you know where to find me if you have any questions
[11:11am] fabriceflorin: Trizek: Thanks for your good point about the current user experience when you click on a thumbnail. What if we displayed a pop-up media player on the same page, that included a prominent link to the file info page on Commons?
[11:11am] bawolff: guillom: While, since you're hear - what in your opinion was the most important thing to do that multimedia-usability didn't get to?
[11:11am] twkozlowski: fabriceflorin: If we start with good news, what kaldari did with the pop-up windows for videos inside articles was /amazing/.
[11:11am] guillom: bawolff: hmm; give me a second to think about this.
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[11:12am] fabriceflorin: guillom: thanks for the link to your excellent research, which I keep going back to every few days. Many of the ideas you suggested back then are being reviewed again as part of our planning.
[11:12am] bawolff: twkozlowski: So yes, doing that sort of thing, but for normal files is one thing we would like to do
[11:12am] Dmcdevit: fabriceflorin: In your mockup that we saw in the hangout of the media viewer, one thing I was curious about was that the pop-up didn't display any of the image metadata. I'd actually like for it to (subtly) display important fields, like source and title.
[11:12am] Fae_mobile: (+1 to point 5 mins ago, I'm slow and on a teeny window) Transcoding is a mystery to many users. Automated ways of just letting users upload a much, much larger range of formats from their camera/phone would be a great way of boosting video uploads, and help attract the public to join in with WLM and other projects which are pitched at new user engagement.
[11:12am] twkozlowski: JeanFred: I'm using ffmpeg version 1.0.7, so it's that simple.
[11:13am] Trizek: fabriceflorin: Prominent, why not. Attractive, yes. Having several links, or buttons connected to Commons should be great. And a mention like "this file is from Commons"...
[11:13am] fabriceflorin: Our new multimedia team is just now being formed at the Wikimedia Foundation, to build features that will enable easier contributions of multimedia content to Wikimedia projects. We are now in planning stage, to determine our next steps this summer. You can read more about them on this Multimedia project page: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Multimedia
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[11:13am] kleinerMann: exactly my point fae
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[11:14am] twkozlowski: The on-the-fly transcoding would be important for audio files as much as for videos.
[11:14am] fabriceflorin: With your help, we would like to identify a few features which our skeleton team can start work on this summer, as we recruit other team members in coming weeks.
[11:14am] bawolff: Dmcdevit: are you referring to this mockup: https://www.mediawiki.org/w/index.php?title=File:Multimedia-Project-Slides-July-18-2013.pdf&page=10
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[11:14am] guillom: bawolff: It's difficult to single out 1 thing, but I'd say that proper workflows (for curation, patrolling, etc.) and structured data & search (so that it's really possible to find exactly what you're looking for without having to search in English, through tons of sub-categories, and check the license for each file) would be my top 2.
[11:14am] bawolff: guillom: so the hard things
[11:15am] Fae_mobile: BTW, I would like on-the-fly transcoding to work via the API (even if some form of staging) rather than just via some wacky front end wizard.
[11:15am] fabriceflorin: twkozlowski: Good point that the on-the-fly transcoding is needed for audio as well as video. We are hoping to make progress on both fronts, but this will take a while because of licensing issues.
[11:15am] YuviPanda: fabriceflorin: fabriceflorin twkozlowski kleinerMann I suppose 'let users upload in any format and transcode on server' could be most requested / highest-impact feature
[11:15am] marktraceur: Fae_mobile: Point of clarification - is there a call for videos of monuments as part of WLM? That's something I hadn't considered before.
[11:15am] Dmcdevit: bawolff: Actually, no. We were shown a slightly different version, with a Beatles image. It was full screen, and titn't have as much text or buttons on the bottom.
[11:15am] Dmcdevit: *didn't
[11:15am] YuviPanda: marktraceur: there isn't, but there *could* be
[11:15am] guillom: bawolff: heh Well, stuff like cross-wiki uploading (directly from the edit window) is important too and probably easier
[11:15am] bawolff: guillom: While the second point especially
[11:16am] marktraceur: YuviPanda: My point being that it doesn't seem like it would be terribly useful since 99.9% of monuments don't move very much
[11:16am] fabriceflorin: I would like to turn your attention now to these slides, where we have outlined some of the main multimedia activities we hope to support over time: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/File:Multimedia-Project-Slides-July-18-2013.pdf
[11:16am] Fae_mobile: marktraceur: We don't encourage video within WLM, only because it's too darn hard to explain ogv/oga/ogg!
[11:16am] Dmcdevit: (Page 11 in https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1zO7Qwj0PI56BDt-7UtTRXbzDboHqA_z1UVnmRm3CNCM/edit, but maybe that's out of date now.)
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[11:16am] twkozlowski: Fae: No, that's not the reason.
[11:16am] fabriceflorin: Hello Fae_mobile , glad you could join our chat! We hope to support more video formats over time. But your point is well taken. : )
[11:16am] robla: guillom: one thing that Wikia does on their site is they've hooked up search to suggest media to embed in articles. Once we switch our search engine (this year), we should be able to think seriously about that.
[11:17am] YuviPanda: fabriceflorin: marktraceur more technical, but I'd at least like some more documentation for stashed uploads. Currently remains a bit of a mystery
[11:17am] Fae_mobile: Video is great for events and user reportage. Commons only has a tiny proportion of media being video, yet all smart phones are instant video feeds.
[11:17am] fabriceflorin: In coming months, we plan to focus on these core activities:
[11:17am] fabriceflorin: 1. Improve the viewing experience for multimedia content
[11:17am] fabriceflorin: 2. Enable multimedia contributions in a more seamless way
[11:17am] fabriceflorin: 3. Improve file curation and feedback tools to manage contribution streams
[11:17am] fabriceflorin: 4. Help editors add media files to articles on Wikipedia and other projects
[11:17am] fabriceflorin: 5. Support organizers of multimedia campaigns like Wiki Loves Monuments
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[11:17am] marktraceur: YuviPanda: I could probably work on that - I'll add it to something
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[11:17am] YuviPanda: marktraceur: ty
[11:17am] bawolff: YuviPanda: People upload stuff to mystery stash. And sometimes they can even pull it back out again
[11:17am] quiddity_: Dmcdevit, yup, many of the images/slides in the page https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Multimedia/Feature_ideas have been updated since the Roundtable
[11:17am] darkweasel: would "supporting more video formats" mean that they are converted to webm/ogg, or that commons would actually deliver patent-encumbered formats to end users?
[11:17am] marktraceur: Bug report or so
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[11:17am] YuviPanda: bawolff: indeed. all so mysterious.
[11:18am] bawolff: YuviPanda: I'll try and add some documentation sometime in near future
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[11:18am] darkweasel: personally, i think commons requiring an ogv or webm compatible browser is a good thing because that helps spread those formats
[11:18am] twkozlowski: marktraceur: The 2011 video considered using videos for WLM, but because it's (1) much easier to take pictures of monuments, and (2) it's not that easy to convert videos to Ogv under Windows, we dropped it.
[11:18am] kleinerMann: most transcoders i worked with so far also supported some basic form of cutting (like from 00:00:09 until 00:00:30); I hope if server-side transcoding for uploads is enabled it also supports features like this
[11:18am] guillom: robla: this is great to hear. I hope it could be used to also improve search on Commons, maybe by reusing some of the algorithms used on language versions of Wikipedia, for example. I'm thinking more broadly about finding pictures on Commons the way you find pictures on flickr, not necessarily just to illustrate Wikipedia articles.
[11:18am] twkozlowski: the 2011 competition*
[11:19am] Fae_mobile: darkweasel: one-way (to open formats) would be a start. Providing multi-platform "reading", that can be a second order problem.
[11:19am] fabriceflorin: Do these general areas seem worthwhile for us to work on, from your standpoint? Which area is most important to you? View? Contribute? Curate? Feedback? Publish? Engage?
[11:19am] quiddity_: marktraceur, however, getting a moving video of a monument allows for better understanding of perspective, eg. walking around a statue, or walking towards a building.
[11:19am] Dmcdevit: The newer media viewer mockup seems much more cluttered now.
[11:19am] bawolff: Dmcdevit: it should be noted that that is a very rough draft. We plan to get the design people to go over it and make suggestions
[11:20am] marktraceur: quiddity_: Good point
[11:20am] fabriceflorin: darkweasel: Thanks for your good point about spreading the use of OGV and WebM formats. We will continue to promote these formats, but are finding that many casual users are having a hard time viewing them. Hence the need to support other formats as well .
[11:20am] Dmcdevit: bawolff: I understand. It was just the first thing that struck me about it.
[11:20am] marktraceur: YuviPanda: https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=51629
[11:20am] marktraceur: CC'd you, but still
[11:20am] twkozlowski: From a user perspective, Ogv and WebM seem fine to me.
[11:20am] bawolff: darkweasel: Specificly there's some problems on mobile viewing them
[11:20am] Dmcdevit: I imagine a lot of those buttons will be hidden to non-editor viewers, though.
[11:21am] YuviPanda: marktraceur: beat me to it, damn https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=51630
[11:21am] Fae_mobile: fabriceflorin: For me "Contribute" - fulfilling our scope to *preserve* must be the priority, the other aspects should build on-top of a world-class body of media that itself becomes attractive - even, perhaps, attracting independently designed readers and interfaces.
[11:21am] twkozlowski: The biggest trouble is the need to transcode your videos into those formats.
[11:21am] bawolff: from a desktop prespective ogv is probably fine
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[11:21am] marktraceur: YuviPanda: Did I not say I was opening a bug?
[11:21am] fabriceflorin: OK, let's talk about our proposed Media Viewer, which you can read about here: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Multimedia/Feature_ideas#Media_viewer
[11:21am] darkweasel: in fact i think that wikimedia not supporting mp4 is good because that puts pressure on apple to support webm
[11:21am] YuviPanda: marktraceur: oh, I thought youa sked me to
[11:21am] kleinerMann: fabriceflorin: publish, curate, view; in that order
[11:21am] Trizek: fabriceflorin: what is your priority on a scale from a better reader experience to upgrade some small bugs for a few ?
[11:22am] Dmcdevit: fabriceflorin: IRC meetings can be like herding cats.
[11:22am] darkweasel: a foundation that cares about free content and such things should try to put a bit of pressure on commercial enterprises to support patent-unencumbered formats
[11:22am] fabriceflorin: The purpose of the Media Viewer is to provide a richer multimedia experience to match user expectations and display images in larger size, on the same page as the thumbnail. Here are some slides that show preliminary wireframes, as well as map the problem we would like to solve: http://www.mediawiki.org/w/index.php?title=File:Multimedia-Project-Slides-July-18-2013.pdf&page=10
[11:23am] prtksxna: fabriceflorin: There could be more focus on the media itself, the information and actions could be shown if that context is required
[11:23am] bawolff: darkweasel: I certainly understand where you are coming from, and there are a lot of people with different opinions on that front
[11:23am] fabriceflorin: What do you think of this first idea for a Media Viewer? Is that something that you would use? What do you like or not like about this early proposal?
[11:23am] Trizek: fabriceflorin: Looks cool !
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[11:24am] Fae_mobile: Media Viewer - slight shiver. Reminds me of the ghastly changes that Flickr introduced. Perhaps the lesson from Flickr is to allow alternative interfaces so folks can customize look and feel if the can't stand how it pops up, hovers etc.
[11:24am] YuviPanda: fabriceflorin: can you explain the 'Like' thing on that page?
[11:24am] fabriceflorin: BTW, thanks for letting us know which priorities are most important to us earlier in this thread. We will process all this feedback after the chat, even if we can't respond to your good suggestions live : o)
[11:25am] Trizek: YuviPanda: the Facebook-like feature ?
[11:25am] • Fae_mobile Ponders "like" vs. a user "quality rating"
[11:25am] fabriceflorin: YuviPanda: The 'Like' button idea is just a placeholder for some form of quick feedback, which we will discuss later in this chat. None of this is cast in concrete, we're just proposing possible approaches here …
[11:25am] YuviPanda: fabriceflorin: that iconography will also probably rile up some people unnecessarily who would keep talking about the iconography rather than the actual features. Troll magnet
[11:25am] Dmcdevit: I think the media viewer is most relevant for readers, not editors. The default desired behavior may even be to have logged-in editors go to the image information page, not the media viewer.
[11:26am] ragesoss: Is the idea with the media viewer that the i icon will send the user straight to the Commons page, or will they still have to click through the local version with the hard-to-notice "this is actually on Commons" template?
[11:26am] bawolff: Yes mediaviewer would be targetting readers
[11:26am] twkozlowski: No like buttons please.
[11:26am] YuviPanda: +1 to having it go directly to the commons page, rather than through the local page
[11:26am] fabriceflorin: Fae_mobile: Good point about the unfortunate Flickr deployment. We plan to avoid the same mistakes by making all new features available in a special 'experimental beta mode' that you can opt out of on a per-feature basis. More on this later ...
[11:27am] twkozlowski: If you want to give the ability for quick feedback, the translate extension is great; you can translate stuff through pop-up boxes.
[11:27am] kleinerMann: that's actually very hard; lots of users (at least in my experience) don't like that mediawiki becomes more and more like facebook, on the other hand it might attract new users
[11:27am] twkozlowski: Some code from them could be reused, I suppose.
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[11:27am] • Fae_mobile Likes the idea of /reader/ quality ratings. Terribly handy for finding unusably poor quality media.
[11:28am] fabriceflorin: kleinerMann: Good point. Our hope is that by making the viewing experience better, we can engage more readers to become contributors over time.
[11:28am] Dmcdevit: ragesoss: I can't actually think of what purpose the local pages for Commons images serve, other than to not take people to a different project without warning. In which case, as long as this says you're going to Commons, that seems like a good idea.
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[11:28am] twkozlowski: Fae_mobile: We know this doesn't work, from the English Wikipedia that had this small box at the bottom of article pages.
[11:28am] Trizek: Keeping the mediaviewer only for readers is a mistake : logged contributors can have the same for a better experience, but improved in order to contribute.
[11:28am] fabriceflorin: twkozlowski: We hear you loud and clear on the preference to stay clear of 'like' buttons and explore other methods for surfacing quality content.
[11:28am] ragesoss: those local pages are a horrible kludge that need to die as soon as possible.
[11:29am] bawolff: Trizek: I tend to agree that experiance should be similar logged in as logged out
[11:29am] YuviPanda: +1 to 'die die die die local pages'
[11:29am] Trizek: +1 twkozlowski
[11:29am] bawolff: otherwise logged in users don't notice bad things happening to logged out
[11:29am] twkozlowski: I'd say limit creation and edit of local pages for sysops, sometimes they are needed.
[11:29am] Dmcdevit: bawolff, Trizek: I can see that logic.
[11:29am] fabriceflorin: ragesoss: Yes, the local file pages are very confusing to new users. We hope to find a better solution with your help, by providing a direct link from the media player to the file info page on Commons.
[11:29am] bawolff: and we have situations like with flaggedRevs where things end up broken for anons, and no one notices because no one who knows how to report an issue actually sees brokeness
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[11:30am] Fae_mobile: twkozlowski: user feedback is quite a different thing from ratings for images. Allowing *readers* to be able to flag, say, badly labeled images, or bad quality images, could be fun for folks that do not want to set up an account, or can't be bothered to login from their mobile phone.
[11:30am] fabriceflorin: If you have any more thoughts about the Media Viewer, we invite you to post them on this Feature Ideas page: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Multimedia/Feature_ideas#Media_viewer
[11:30am] kleinerMann: fabriceflorin: yep, but I also know that some long-term user don't like the change, so most features should be able to be switched off
[11:30am] ragesoss: twkozlowski: true. But in most cases, no local page exists, so the fake local page is totally unnecessary.
[11:31am] fabriceflorin: Let's move on to our next agenda item, which is File Notifications: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Multimedia/Feature_ideas#File_notifications
[11:32am] quiddity_: Re: local pages, are there any/many legitimate uses for them?
[11:32am] Trizek: fabriceflorin: Is it a global notifications system ? I spend my time on Wikipedia, not on Commons, but I have many files uploaded.
[11:32am] marktraceur: Trizek: That's one of our hopes, yeah
[11:32am] fabriceflorin: The idea for File Notifications would be to adapt the recent Echo Notifications tool we just released on English Wikipedia, and have it inform file creators when something happens to their files -- specifically for event notifications not already available, like 'Your File was Used in Article' ...
[11:32am] bawolff: quiddity_: user being suddenly redirected to another website where they may not have an account, could be confusing
[11:32am] bawolff: especially on sites not associated with Wikimedia
[11:33am] marktraceur: Trizek: That'll take some work, though - maybe bigger work than just the Multimedia team. Federated MediaWiki, anyone?
[11:33am] twkozlowski: quiddity_: Local projects use such pages to mark featured content, or re-upload files they want to have temporarily protected
[11:33am] kleinerMann: some local projects have their own featured images so the local page is used to mark that image as a quality image, even if the image itself is on commons
[11:33am] fabriceflorin: What do you think of this File Notifications idea? Is this feature useful? What do you like most? least? How could it be improved?
[11:33am] quiddity_: Mhm, but in the sense of file-curation. Do the files that live on commons often get categorized locally, in a way different from commons?
[11:33am] bawolff: quiddity_: I believe that's rather rare
[11:34am] helianth: This may be 2-5 years' out, but in terms of 'create, publish, curate, view,' in what ways are you planning for snippets of virtual worlds like OpenSim, WoW and SL (e.g. an interactive scene from a Shakespeare play), which may not exist yet that I've seen, but will probably come, in Media Viewer?
[11:34am] Fae_mobile: quiddity_: Some local files may not be allowed on Commons - such as fair use on en.wp. There's no plan to lose the value of these local variations. It's a creative chopsuey.
[11:34am] Trizek: marktraceur: This goes with a central WatchList feature.
[11:34am] Dmcdevit: fabriceflorin: I said this in the roundtable, but my main reaction to file notifications is that I would feather it be more a watch list system for files, which you can add any file you'd like to follow to, rather than just be for the creator. Echo makes sense being user-centric because it's about communication, so you wouldn't ever follow another user's notifications.
[11:34am] quiddity_: Understood. Sorry to tangent. Back to Notifications
[11:34am] marktraceur: Trizek: Yeah, but central to which wiki? Who decides which wiki is central?
[11:35am] fabriceflorin: Trizek: Initially, the File Notifications would be for Commons only, because cross-wiki notifications is a complicated problem, which will take a while to solve. But if you enable email notifications, this feature would help you no matter where you are.
[11:35am] Trizek: marktraceur: User, of course.
[11:35am] bawolff: helianth: Well there are people (outside of our team) who do want to see 3d files on commons (from x3d or just chemical models in 3d viewers)
[11:35am] twkozlowski: 'File was used in article' is a brilliant idea.
[11:35am] helianth: thanks
[11:35am] twkozlowski: Possibly the best one of them all.
[11:35am] Trizek: fabriceflorin: I use it. But a central Notification and Watchlist is an old dream (and increase user experience)
[11:36am] fabriceflorin: helianth: We haven't looked as far in the future as you do for the Media Viewer. We just want to solve the problem for images, sounds and videos initially, then explore other formats later.
[11:36am] kleinerMann: yep, good idea
[11:36am] ragesoss: fabriceflorin: can you clarify how it will help you wherever you are? You'll only get a notification on Commons, but it will notify based on files added on (say) Wikipedia?
[11:36am] helianth: fabriceflorin and bawalff: great
[11:37am] fabriceflorin: twkozlowski: Glad you like the 'File used in article' idea, which seems to have great potential. We are even wondering if we should consider the 'File used' metric as one of the main methods for measuring the success of our tools --- in the past, we have focused on 'Number of uploads', but the real win is when a file is placed in an article, methinks ;o)
[11:37am] twkozlowski: Also, how do you plan to solve the problem of using wikitext for information in the Media Viewer?
[11:38am] twkozlowski: Not all files use the information template, and there are many local variations, this asks for trouble...
[11:38am] fabriceflorin: ragesoss: If you enable email notifications, you will receive notifications about events on Commons, even if you are not visiting the site all that frequently.
[11:38am] marktraceur: twkozlowski: I feel like it's wishful thinking to say "by cutting it out and storing information in a better format"
[11:38am] bawolff: marktraceur: yeah, that's wishful
[11:39am] bawolff: twkozlowski: We're going to do the best we can
[11:39am] Fae_mobile: It could be useful to have more flags around digital corruptions and mismatches between EXIF data and image page data (such as first chosen copyright statements or given dates) though this is probably odd-bot work, it would smart to identify more of these on upload - *especially* for mobile platforms, so the user is asked and asked again "are you *sure* you own the copyright?"
[11:39am] bawolff: twkozlowski: medium-long term we hope wikidata integration plans will make that an easier issue to deal with
[11:39am] twkozlowski: fabriceflorin: With InstantCommons and ever wider usage of our files outside of Wikimedia projects, each uploaded file has great potential, even if they're not used anywhere
[11:39am] Dmcdevit: ragesoss: I think that's what they are planning, since Commons pages already list where they are used on other Wikimedia projects, so Commons is pulling this data already.
[11:39am] helianth: agreed, Fabrice ... perhaps code this partly as a citation measurement statistic in a database as in academia?
[11:39am] fabriceflorin: OK, folks, thanks for your good insights about notifications. We encourage you to add your comments on our Feature Ideas page, so we can collect everyone's thoughts, even if we couldn't discuss them all in this live chat.
[11:40am] twkozlowski: marktraceur, bawolff: Wikidata-like storage looks nice.
[11:40am] JeanFred: YuviPanda marktraceur : there actually was a video prize for WLM last year or the year before
[11:40am] twkozlowski: It was in 2011.
[11:40am] bawolff: I've also thought it could be interesting to sort categories by how much the file was used in Wikimedia
[11:40am] kleinerMann: maybe you should have a chat with the wikidata team: they recently suggested to move the file informations to wikidata
[11:40am] darkweasel: bawolff: that's already possible through a toolserver tool called glamorous
[11:40am] twkozlowski: Oh, if we start wishful thinking.
[11:40am] twkozlowski: Fix redirects!!!oneone
[11:40am] ragesoss: A related feature (which is probably far away, but would *really* enhance Commons for contributors) would be notifications and detailed information on how files are used elsewhere on the web. Via instacommons, as a start, but elsewhere as well (perhaps by hooking into someone's image search API, or by following incoming links to file pages)
[11:41am] fabriceflorin: Let's now move on to the next topic in our agenda: File Feedback. You can read more about this idea here : http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Multimedia/Feature_ideas#File_feedback
[11:41am] bawolff: darkweasel: I mean directly in the interface
[11:41am] darkweasel: yeah, i know what you meant
[11:41am] Pyb: bawolff: +1 (and by size, date)
[11:41am] darkweasel: wasn't sure if you knew this however
[11:41am] quiddity_: ragesoss, the commons page does already track which projects the file is used in, so presumably it would be possible already. eg. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Sair_Tjerita_Siti_Akbari.jpg#File_usage_on_other_wikis
[11:41am] bawolff: Which brings us to file feedback
[11:42am] ragesoss: quiddity_: it only tracks WMF wikis, right?
[11:42am] kleinerMann: looks a little bit like hot or not
[11:42am] ragesoss: many others use instacommons to pull files from Commons for local use.
[11:42am] bawolff: Basic problem is sorting images in category by alphabetical order is kind of useless
[11:42am] twkozlowski: There is currently no way to track non-WMF usage
[11:42am] bawolff: ragesoss: correct
[11:42am] fabriceflorin: The goal for File Feedback is to surface useful files quickly, and provide some measure of quality, so that editors can find the best files for insertion in articles.
[11:43am] fabriceflorin: I would like to thank ragesoss for suggesting this approach, as well as robla for proposing a comparison feature, and of course, the one and only bawolff for creating this awesome prototype: http://tools.wmflabs.org/bawolff/whichisbetter/index.php?title=Special:WhichIsBetter
[11:43am] Fae_mobile: Love it. For mobile devices. Fits well with picking the top 100 from a category of 10,000 images. It might *cough* be useful for identifying probable IDENT (or NSFW) images (i.e. the opposite of identifying the best).
[11:43am] Trizek: fabriceflorin: This file feedback feature may not be understood in the right way : the encyclopedic or pedagogic matter may be forgotten by people who just like a picture who does not show an interesting point but is just nice
[11:43am] helianth: (How else does Wikimedia Commons' Multimedia interface with academia, especially paper citations of academics? Building on this has merit for both notifications and possibly file feedback).
[11:44am] bawolff: Once people rate things, it can be used in the category as a sorting method: http://tools.wmflabs.org/bawolff/whichisbetter/index.php?title=Category:Images
[11:44am] twkozlowski: I also feel you'll need to explain the expected use cases of the tool to the community.
[11:44am] Fae_mobile: Trizek: "Nice" rather than "encyclopaedic" is fine. Usable is not the same as encyclopaedic.
[11:44am] twkozlowski: I first thought it was a useless Hot-or-Not crap, only then bawolff explained this to me.
[11:44am] ragesoss: Fae_mobile: yeah, I can imagine people sitting for long stretches evaluating images with a good phone app.
[11:44am] bawolff: So basic idea is we need some better way to sort categories
[11:44am] fabriceflorin: Fae_mobile: Glad you like the idea. We were looking for a way to get folks to evaluate the quality of the content without explicitly rating it.
[11:45am] bawolff: and one potential way, is to get users to compare files, and use that to sort categories
[11:45am] kleinerMann: which is better: i don't really see the point in comparing 2 random images; the user might choose what he likes better according to what he sees, not the quality of the picture
[11:45am] bawolff: There's also a highest rated files page as well: http://tools.wmflabs.org/bawolff/whichisbetter/index.php?title=Special:HighestRatedFiles
[11:45am] JeanFred: twkozlowski: Re Also, how do you plan to solve the problem of using wikitext for information in the Media Viewer? → https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Machine-readable_data
[11:45am] Fae_mobile: Comparing this against that is the smart way forward. Someone could go through 200 LOLcats sitting on the train saying which are better (probably funnier) this is exactly what readers using our search engine want to find too...
[11:45am] • ragesoss heads out to pick up the ragesosslets.
[11:45am] fabriceflorin: One possible use case could be to show all the pictures for a particular article or category and ask people which are the best match for that article or category.
[11:45am] twkozlowski: Well, obviously I'd rate female genitalia higher than an aircraft.
[11:46am] bawolff: twkozlowski: Well that is a risk
[11:46am] marktraceur: kleinerMann: I think the idea would be to specify that it's about quality as opposed to content, but we also want to use categories to group images together for more useful comparisons
[11:46am] bawolff: We might make it so it only compares in one category
[11:46am] twkozlowski: bawolff: that's why it should only be used on a per-category basis like we discussed it a couple of days ago
[11:46am] bawolff: or something along those lines
[11:46am] twkozlowski: Yes, that.
[11:46am] marktraceur: Comparing two images from "Category : Fruit" would probably be better than comparing two images from anywhere
[11:47am] fabriceflorin: JeanFred: We haven't seriously looking into the wikitext info issue you brought up. But if we link directly to the file page on Commons, we could postpone this issue for a while, while we all look for solutions together.
[11:47am] JeanFred: ragesoss: Re "how files are used elsewhere on the web" → /me looks at http://mw2013.museumsandtheweb.com/paper/where-do-images-of-art-go-once-they-go-online-a-reverse-image-lookup-study-to-assess-the-dissemination-of-digitized-cult
[11:47am] bawolff: JeanFred: TMH does use the machine readable info page, but its far from perfect
[11:47am] Fae_mobile: twkozlowski: But if you were rating for "which of these photos is a better quality view of a Boeing 787?" the folks being trollish about it would be lost as noise.
[11:47am] helianth: In a broad way, where is image recognition (e.g. a specific flower, species or object) these days (I don't engage these questions actively), and especially in Wikimedia Commons, open source, and Creative Commons spheres?
[11:48am] helianth: Is there a way to anticipate remarkable developments here for Wikimedia Commons in this planning?
[11:48am] Trizek: And how can we make clear how to credit the author of a file ?
[11:48am] fabriceflorin: OK, folks, please add your comments after the chat on any of the ideas listed on this page: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Multimedia/Feature_ideas
[11:48am] twkozlowski: Nowhere, I am afraid, helianth.
[11:48am] ragesoss: Thanks JeanFred. I'll have to read that. I've done some similar research in a more casual way on my Commons contributions.
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[11:49am] Trizek: fabriceflorin: Can we add features suggestions on this page ? How ?
[11:49am] bawolff: helianth: We're not exactly planning to do anything related to computer vision for using AI to do subject recognition in photos
[11:49am] helianth: twkozlowski: thanks
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[11:49am] fabriceflorin: We'd like to end this discussion of specific features by previewing the New Gallery Layout which bawolff has been working on, in collaboration with Community members.
[11:49am] ragesoss: helianth: I've heard rumors that Creative Commons may develop a serious usage tracking service.
[11:49am] bawolff: helianth: Since that's more a research problem in AI
[11:49am] bawolff: http://tools.wmflabs.org/bawolff/gallery/index.php?title=Featured_pictures/Animals/Fish
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[11:50am] quiddity_: Yup, the current File Feedback example image (plant vs universal joint) desperately needs to be changed. It is inherently confusing.
[11:50am] ragesoss: (okay, really leaving now)
[11:50am] bawolff: Basically: Current galleries are kind of all spaced out
[11:50am] helianth: thanks
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[11:50am] fabriceflorin: The idea for this feature was to improve the overall user experience by providing a more compact and visually attractive way to feature the thumbnails in a gallery tag.
[11:50am] bawolff: And I'd like to make them more together, and prettier
[11:51am] bawolff: http://tools.wmflabs.org/bawolff/gallery/index.php?title=Main_Page has a list of different approaches tried
[11:51am] twkozlowski: Well, this might be a good place to add some partially transparent, on-hover icons
[11:51am] JeanFred: helianth: there are experiments done in computer vision recognition on Commons − see https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Multichill/Using_OpenCV_to_categorize_files
[11:51am] bawolff: Trizek: Its a wiki - feel free to suggest stuff on talk pages and what not
[11:52am] fabriceflorin: What do you guys think of this New Galley Layout feature? Is it useful to you? How could it be improved?
[11:52am] bawolff: twkozlowski: What sort of icons did you have in mind?
[11:52am] Trizek: Thanks bawolff . I forgot it
[11:52am] twkozlowski: bawolff: http://www.flickr.com/explore
[11:52am] JeanFred: helianth: see https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=File:Lord_John_Robert_Berendt_III.jpg&withJS=MediaWiki:FileContentsByBot.js for example
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[11:53am] kleinerMann: in my experience, galleries on commons are mostly dead, categories are used instead
[11:53am] fabriceflorin: Our plan is to introduce it in coming days on an experimental basis, so you would be able to add some parameters to your galleries --- either showing thumbnails in 'packed' mode or in 'packed-hover' mode, as shown at the end of the Main page linked above.
[11:53am] fabriceflorin: kleinerMann: Thanks for pointing this out, that's good to know.
[11:53am] twkozlowski: bawolff: perhaps not the like button, but what the Media Viewer is supposed to have: an (i) icon, an envelope icon (for sharing), etc.
[11:54am] JeanFred: I suppose the gallery layout could be adopted for categories− bawolff ?
[11:54am] bawolff: kleinerMann: To clarify , this is meant to (in the long term) be used for the image section of categories to
[11:54am] bawolff: And on things like special:newfiles
[11:54am] fabriceflorin: twkozlowski: Yes, most large multimedia sites have some form of an Explore feature. Do you think we should consider a similar discovery feature for our wiki sites?
[11:54am] helianth: JeanFred: would you say that is the state of the art technically ... kind of quadranting and outlining?
[11:54am] JeanFred: right
[11:54am] JeanFred: helianth: Well I am totally not a specialist in that
[11:55am] quiddity_: Why aren't galleries used very much on commons? I assume because they require so much additional manual work: copying captions, and grouping subtypes?
[11:55am] fabriceflorin: JeanFred: You are absolutely correct that if we find this galley layout useful, it can be rolled out to other features.
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[11:55am] JeanFred: helianth: I just know that one or two people are playing around with the idea in their free time
[11:55am] twkozlowski: fabriceflorin: Perhaps; I was only referring to the existence of on-hover feature on Flickr
[11:55am] fabriceflorin: OK, thanks for your good insights on all these feature ideas, which are incredibly helpful.
[11:56am] JeanFred: quiddity_: Galleries always fall behind cateogries
[11:56am] twkozlowski: Not sure I remember correctly, but there were some problems with this behaviour on mobile?
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[11:56am] helianth: it's great to lay out hypothetical technical pathways forward for Wikimedia Commons in this time of digital seismic shifting and big wave surfing
[11:56am] fabriceflorin: I would like to use the remaining time we have left to answer questions and discuss any ideas you haven't brought up before. What's an important new feature we haven't discussed but should consider for our first year?
[11:56am] twkozlowski: Fix redirects.
[11:56am] JeanFred: they become outdate rapidly − we have shitloads of galleries like John Doe with pictures from John Doe from 2007 − though we have better ones
[11:57am] bawolff: twkozlowski: Just to clarify so I know what's wrong with redirects
[11:57am] marktraceur: Not discussed, but, I've been working on this: http://multimedia-alpha.wmflabs.org/w/index.php/Special:BetaFeatures
[11:57am] JeanFred: Galleries only become useful when you really want to present the images in a structured way
[11:57am] marktraceur: Hopefully this'll be the way we roll out beta-status features in the near future
[11:57am] twkozlowski: bawolff: When you rename a file and it's hotlinked, you man have a problem.
[11:57am] bawolff: ok
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[11:57am] marktraceur: It's a little more centralized and is going to look way nicer
[11:57am] JeanFred: quiddity_: there a rew good examples linked from https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons_talk:Featured_galleries though
[11:57am] bawolff: Additionally, the whole is broken on wikimedia until the page gets purged
[11:58am] bawolff: I should really emphasise, that when I say gallery, I mean anywhere that mediawiki output "gallery" type display
[11:58am] fabriceflorin: Thanks, marktraceur ! Yes, the work you are doing for this Beta Features is really important, because it will allow us to test some of these new features with a small group of early adopters, so we can tweak them with their help without bothering everyone until they're ready for prime-time!
[11:58am] JeanFred: bawolff: yes − damn confusing names
[11:59am] bawolff: I also experimented with hover for the captions: http://tools.wmflabs.org/bawolff/gallery/index.php?title=Main_Page#packed_hover lots of people worried that it would make the captions not be visible enough
[11:59am] fabriceflorin: We would like to first test some of these experimental features on wiki sites other than the English Wikipedia, like Commons and the French Wikipedia, for example. Any suggestions of other wiki projects that would have a strong interest in working with us to test these new features?
[12:00pm] JeanFred: (yeah − we might not want to redo the all design mailing list discussion all over again :p)
[12:00pm] helianth: WUaS is one, Fabrice ...
[12:00pm] bawolff: JeanFred: I feel that's inevitable
[12:00pm] Dmcdevit: I would would like to see seamless upload to Commons from any other Wikimedia project without leaving the project you are already on (or even the article you want to insert it in, uploading from a popup, not a special page).
[12:00pm] helianth: but perhaps its better to email about this
[12:00pm] chrismcmahon: fabriceflorin: I'd like to see experimental features on beta labs also of course
[12:01pm] kleinerMann: don't do it on de.wp, they are too conservative
[12:01pm] bawolff: helianth: what is WUaS
[12:01pm] fabriceflorin: helianth: Thanks for the suggestion of WUaS -- could you put me in touch with these folks offline?
[12:01pm] Trizek: kleinerMann: I think all Wikipedias are conservative, with specific ways
[12:01pm] bawolff: Any other questions?
[12:01pm] fabriceflorin: Any other comments, questions or suggestions?
[12:01pm] helianth: I'll put you in touch offline with WUaS, Fabrice.
[12:01pm] bawolff: Now's your chance to play stump the develoiper
[12:02pm] bawolff: ask us embarrasing questions
[12:02pm] bawolff: etc
[12:02pm] helianth: http://worlduniversity.wikia.com/wiki/World_University
[12:02pm] fabriceflorin: Also, was this IRC chat format helpful for you? What did you like or not like about the way this discussion went today? Should we do this again at regular intervals?
[12:02pm] twkozlowski: Dmcdevit: this is a good suggestion
[12:02pm] bawolff: (Obviously, you could ask us embarassing questions at any time. We're around)
[12:02pm] helianth: I can email you further about it offline, as well, if interested.
[12:02pm] fabriceflorin: helianth: Thanks, that would be great.
[12:03pm] bawolff: helianth: Non-wmf wikis are welcome to try these things, but you'd have to talk to the hoster
[12:03pm] helianth: Yes, thanks, Fabrice ...
[12:03pm] twkozlowski: As much as it should be easy to transfer files from wikis to Commons, it should be as hard as possible to do things the other way round.
[12:03pm] Dmcdevit: bawolff: What is the difference between a rhombus and a trapezoid?
[12:03pm] Fae_mobile: multi-resolution duplicate finding tool please. It's impossible to find duplicates, even of the same size, when the SHA-1 is different.
[12:03pm] • marktraceur puts on his mole costume, places foam hammer in the middle of the chatroom
[12:03pm] bawolff: We don't control wikia, so we can't exactly plop new features there
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[12:03pm] kleinerMann: IRC: wasn't bad, but it also is a little bit chaotic
[12:03pm] fabriceflorin: Dmcdevit: Hehe, Dominic : )
[12:03pm] helianth: bawolff: makes sense
[12:03pm] bawolff: Dmcdevit: A rhombus has parallel sides
[12:03pm] twkozlowski: We should encourage uploading files to Commons, and there are certain wikis (points to en.wp) who are too full of themselves and upload stuff locally.
[12:03pm] bawolff: I think, i didn't look it up
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[12:03pm] twkozlowski: s/who/which/
[12:03pm] bawolff: twkozlowski: lol
[12:04pm] twkozlowski: Well, that's the truth.
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[12:04pm] twkozlowski: Fae_mobile: I don't think even Tineye got too much success with it.
[12:05pm] Dmcdevit: Yes, presumably if you could upload from enwp directly to Commons without leaving, Commons upload could be set as the default destination for free files, unless you hit a radio button to switch to local upload or something.
[12:05pm] fabriceflorin: twkozlowski: Yes, this dual approach is confusing to users. Yet some local sites feel their interests are not always served on Commons. We would love to find ways to bridge the gap, and diffuse tensions between different sites, so we can all be a big happy family : ) Any ideas on how to make these collaborations happen?
[12:05pm] Trizek: Sometimes, we upload locally (on French wikipedia we apply the no-FOP system on recent buildings). Will the mediaviewer support it ? How can we indicate it on the picture ?
[12:05pm] bawolff: Fae_mobile: interesting idea. I'm not familar at all with the relavent tech in that area, and how fessible that is
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[12:05pm] bawolff: Trizek: Yes, we will support local files
[12:06pm] Fae_mobile: twkozlowski: Yes see http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Faebot/SandboxM which relies on Tineye finding multi-resolution matches.
[12:06pm] fabriceflorin: Trizek: Good point. I expect that it should be possible to identify the source and location of the content in the media player. But we need to add this as a specific feature requirement, thanks for bringing it up!
[12:06pm] twkozlowski: fabriceflorin: I believe 'ban X, Y, and Z' is not your perfect approach?
[12:06pm] Trizek: bawolff: And additional warnings ? Like https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fichier:Champs_Libres_entr%C3%A9e.jpg
[12:06pm] fabriceflorin: One last question, please: Of all the feature ideas we discussed today, which is your favorite and why?
[12:07pm] JeanFred: Life would be so much simpler without local uploads
[12:07pm] Dmcdevit: One-click transfer of existing local files to Wikimedia Commons would also be nice, though I assume the reason that doesn't exist is because it would be very difficult.
[12:07pm] fabriceflorin: * Media viewer
[12:07pm] fabriceflorin: * File notifications
[12:07pm] fabriceflorin: * File feedback
[12:07pm] fabriceflorin: * Gallery layout
[12:07pm] bawolff: Trizek: How we will take that into account I'm not sure. But we will try and keep that in mind when developing the tool. At the very least we'd have a link to the image description page
[12:07pm] Trizek: fabriceflorin Media viewer, because it increases user experience
[12:07pm] twkozlowski: This issue is so complicated... Closing uplodas seems to be the best way forward.
[12:08pm] Fae_mobile: Fave feature - Getting readers to compare image A to image B and say which is better. Turn it into a fun free mobile app...
[12:08pm] kleinerMann: fabriceflorin: i think most of the crusade against the commons on en comes from different views about sexual content and how commons is administrated
[12:08pm] twkozlowski: But it's not possible for some projects, which coincidentally seem to be the ones giving most trouble.
[12:08pm] fabriceflorin: Trizek: Thanks for your favorite. Anyone else?
[12:08pm] Trizek: bawolff: If you can have the credit on the viewer, you may have the warning, I guess ?
[12:08pm] bawolff: Dmcdevit: politically complicated anyhow. Matching up templates and what not. I would like to see upload by url enabled for wikimedia wikis
[12:08pm] Dmcdevit: Yeah, you have a point.
[12:08pm] twkozlowski: * Gallery layout with on-hover icons for file information and file sharing!
[12:08pm] bawolff: Trizek: yes. How that all works out is probably something we'll have a better idea of as we go on
[12:08pm] fabriceflorin: Fae_mobile: Thanks for your recommendation. Everyone, what is your favorite feature idea so far?
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[12:09pm] twkozlowski: * File feedback ('Your photo was added to an article')!
[12:09pm] JeanFred: I think all four are cool ones
[12:09pm] fabriceflorin: twkozlowski: Do you mean File notifications? ('Your photo was added')
[12:09pm] Dmcdevit: My favorites are (1) Media viewer and (2) file notifications.
[12:09pm] JeanFred: Gallery layout is pretty much done anyway, right ?
[12:09pm] marktraceur: twkozlowski: That falls under our notifications
[12:09pm] twkozlowski: And perhaps media viewer, but I'd be very cautious with the current design; grey seems too un-Wikipedia-ish for me
[12:09pm] Trizek: bawolff Okay. I'll follow it
[12:09pm] twkozlowski: fabriceflorin: Yes, sorry, I meant notifications
[12:10pm] fabriceflorin: JeanFred: Yes, you are right that it is done, but wanted people to provide final thoughts about it anyway.
[12:10pm] bawolff: twkozlowski: media viewer is definitely going to probably get a redesign fairly shortly
[12:10pm] twkozlowski: I really, really like the way that videos can be viewed in pop-up windows
[12:10pm] robla: I'm going to check out now. it's been great lurking/listening
[12:10pm] twkozlowski: That design seems fairly unintrusive
[12:10pm] • robla waves goodbye
[12:10pm] chrismcmahon: thanks fabriceflorin that was informative
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[12:11pm] fabriceflorin: Thank you all for your time and insights, which are invaluable to us -- and greatly appreciated. If you have any final suggestions, please add them as comments or final notes on this page: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Multimedia/Feature_ideas
[12:11pm] • Fae_mobile waves on way to get a cool drink, after sitting with hot laptop during a heatwave.
[12:12pm] twkozlowski: But if I had to pick one thing that was discussed today...
[12:12pm] twkozlowski: ... it'll be the on-the-fly format conversion during uploads.
[12:12pm] fabriceflorin: Fae_mobile: So glad you joined us. Enjoy your cool drink ;o)
[12:12pm] kleinerMann: fabriceflorin: can you post what conclusions you draw from this office hour?
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[12:12pm] bawolff: I would also like to mention that both me and marktraceur hang out on irc - if you guys want to talk to us about this stuff later on, we're happy to listen
[12:12pm] bawolff: And we also have talk pages
[12:12pm] bawolff: etc
[12:12pm] fabriceflorin: kleinerMann: Good idea. I will add a summary on the Commons Village Pump, for people who couldn't join.
[12:12pm] marktraceur: *nod* exactly - I'm always in here and in #mediawiki, #wikimedia-dev, and many other channels
[12:13pm] marktraceur: Also in #wikimedia-commons
[12:13pm] fabriceflorin: Everyone: Would it be helpful if we had another chat like this in mid-August, to discuss the next round of ideas and issues?
[12:13pm] Trizek: fabriceflorin: Of course.
[12:14pm] quiddity_: Indeed. It was like a good high-speed talkpage discussion. (At least for those of us who can follow the multistranded overlap of IRC threads)
[12:14pm] twkozlowski: How possible is it for you guys to do this during a weekend?
[12:14pm] Topic changed to "IRC office hours - http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/IRC_office_hours" by marktraceur.
[12:14pm] fabriceflorin: Also, if anyone is going to Wikimania in Hong Kong, be sure to join our Multimedia Roundtable on Aug. 8th -- and sign up on this page: http://wikimania2013.wikimedia.org/wiki/Submissions/Multimedia_Roundtable
[12:14pm] marktraceur: twkozlowski: I think we could swing that - it's not like we have lives or anything
[12:14pm] bawolff: I think that would be do-able
[12:14pm] YuviPanda: lives?! waat
[12:15pm] fabriceflorin: twkozlowski: We would be OK doing this on a Saturday, if there are enough people who would be prepared to join us. How many folks here prefer weekends over weekdays?
[12:15pm] twkozlowski: marktraceur: I know that Sue did a couple of her office hours during a weekend.
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[12:15pm] marktraceur: See, YuviPanda would totally be in for a weekend one
[12:15pm] YuviPanda: weekend? what weekend?
[12:15pm] marktraceur: He has even less lives than us
[12:15pm] marktraceur: Less of a life* english
[12:15pm] YuviPanda: oh, the time of the week when less people are on IRC? bad times.
[12:15pm] bawolff: I have a life. It involves programming things and editing wikis
[12:15pm] quiddity_: I assumed feline genetics, for multilife componentry.
[12:15pm] twkozlowski: fabriceflorin: well, time zones are always tricky, but then you might want to do later than 11AM PST
[12:16pm] Dmcdevit: Can we call you the Wikimedia MediaWiki Multimedia team?
[12:16pm] twkozlowski: do your office hours*
[12:16pm] Dmcdevit: Or, for short, mediamediamedia?
[12:16pm] bawolff: Dmcdevit: Sure
[12:16pm] fabriceflorin: This would be in mid to late August. Let's reconnect in early August to finalize a date ...
[12:16pm] twkozlowski: M3
[12:16pm] YuviPanda: Dmcdevit: Wikimedia MediaWiki MediaTeam, clearly
[12:16pm] twkozlowski: there's already an E3 team, since you guys have three 'M', be M3
[12:16pm] marktraceur: W2M
[12:16pm] bawolff: Wikimedia MediaWiki MediaTeam for the betterment of Wikimedia Commons
[12:17pm] twkozlowski: or M2
[12:17pm] YuviPanda: M5 maybe.
[12:17pm] twkozlowski: and take the M&Ms candy for a mascot.
[12:17pm] marktraceur: For make benefit glorious sit of Commons?
[12:17pm] marktraceur: site*
[12:17pm] bawolff: M3.2
[12:17pm] YuviPanda: M4, but that is just horrible horrible language
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[12:17pm] YuviPanda: *a
[12:17pm] fabriceflorin: OK everyone, thanks so much for being so generous with your time and advice! It makes it so much easier for us to work with thoughtful collaborators like you. Look forward to our next chat!
[12:17pm] bawolff: M3.11 for workgroups?
[12:18pm] JeanFred: fabriceflorin: yeah, weekdays can be tricky − it happens to be okay in my timzone, so I consider mylsef super lucky
[12:18pm] Dmcdevit: Thanks fabriceflorin, and the rest of the team.
[12:18pm] Trizek: Thank you for this IRC hour !
[12:18pm] fabriceflorin: JeanFred: Would a Friday be any better?
[12:18pm] twkozlowski: JeanFred: still, if they pick up 1PM their time, it's 10PM our time, still fine
[12:18pm] JeanFred: twkozlowski: right
[12:18pm] YuviPanda: fabriceflorin: will someone post logs?
[12:19pm] fabriceflorin: Trizek: It's always a pleasure to be chatting with you! Do you think the French Wikipedia community would be interested in testing these experimental feature?
[12:19pm] JeanFred: fabriceflorin: well, as twkozlowski points out, when it happens for evening (for me), it’s okay for me
[12:19pm] JeanFred: :
[12:19pm] twkozlowski: JeanFred: that way the SF guys could even get some more sleep on a Saturday
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[12:19pm] marktraceur: twkozlowski: Sleep?
[12:19pm] marktraceur: Oh, that thing I do between programming.
[12:19pm] twkozlowski: (And perhaps a lunch at the office!)
[12:20pm] fabriceflorin: Yuvi: Yes, I will publish the log later today, on the Village Pump and on our MediaWiki page: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Multimedia
[12:20pm] JeanFred: marktraceur: the thing you do between two coding sessions with your face on the keyboard
[12:20pm] YuviPanda: fabriceflorin: ty
[12:20pm] • bawolff occasionally reads sci-fi books between programming
[12:20pm] marktraceur: JeanFred: I could skip the middleman and tattoo a mirror image of my "oeuidht" keys on my left cheek
[12:20pm] JeanFred: fabriceflorin: for example, the Metrics Meetings of the WMF happens at a perfect time for us Europeans, even on week days
[12:20pm] Trizek: fabriceflorin: I'm interested, and will introduce it to the Projet:aide et accueil in order to prepare the groundwork
[12:20pm] bawolff: I also once went outside, but the big yellow ball of fire burned
[12:20pm] fabriceflorin: YuviPanda: Glad you could join us. Let's plan a 1+1 in coming weeks to discuss specific collaborations between the mobile and multimedia teams.
[12:21pm] YuviPanda: fabriceflorin: gladly!
[12:21pm] fabriceflorin: Stay cool, everyone!
[12:21pm] fabriceflorin: Bye for now ...
[12:22pm] JeanFred: Bye fabriceflorin ! Thanks a lot for your time
[12:22pm] JeanFred: THanks to the rest of the team too
[12:23pm] Trizek: +100 JeanFred
[12:23pm] YuviPanda: JeanFred: did you manage to do any testing for the new campaigns stuff?
[12:23pm] YuviPanda: JeanFred: it's enabled now on testwiki too
[12:23pm] kleinerMann: yep, thanks and goodbye
[12:23pm] JeanFred: YuviPanda: Sorry, I had no time for that
[12:24pm] JeanFred: Can't promise anything (away for the WE)
[12:24pm] twkozlowski: West East?
[12:24pm] marktraceur: Weekend?
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[12:25pm] twkozlowski: JeanFred: I'm having a look at https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Machine-readable_data
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[12:25pm] twkozlowski: Looks nice; this would cover a lot of files as far as I see
[12:25pm] YuviPanda: JeanFred:
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[12:31pm] kleinerMann: twkozlowski: also keep http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Wikidata_for_media_info in mind
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[1:29pm] rillke: Is a log of the multimedia discussion available?
[1:29pm] rillke: ok sorry
[1:29pm] bawolff: yes
[1:29pm] rillke: http://bots.wmflabs.org/~wm-bot/logs/%23wikimedia-office/20130718.txt
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[1:30pm] rillke: can someone add this link to the topic? http://bots.wmflabs.org/~wm-bot/logs/%23wikimedia-office/?C=M;O=D
[1:30pm] marktraceur: rillke: You can!
[1:30pm] marktraceur: But I'd rather put it on the already-linked wiki page
[1:31pm] marktraceur: Since the existing topic needs to stay in the topic and any additional length makes new topics unwieldy
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[1:32pm] rillke: It's usually a good idea to mention that a channel is publicly logged, isnt' it?