IRC office hours/Office hours 2013-02-16

[21:04:28] <Lydia_WMDE> welcome everyone!
[21:04:35] <Lydia_WMDE> who's here for the office hour?
[21:04:44] <yurik> before we start, let us all rise and give a standing ovation to the wikidata team :)
[21:04:52] <Denny_WMDE> (blush)
[21:04:53] -*- jem- agrees
[21:04:54] <Lydia_WMDE> awww you're too sweet yurik
[21:05:05] <Micru_Wikisource> \o/
[21:05:06] <Sven_Manguard> I'll pass on that, standing makes me look fat :P
[21:05:07] <Denny_WMDE> Lydia_WMDE: note that down for the monday daily :)
[21:05:14] <Denny_WMDE> we definitively should pass that on :)
[21:05:16] <Lydia_WMDE> ;-) will do
[21:05:24] <jem-> And I'm here for the office hour, of course
[21:05:30] <Lydia_WMDE> alright awesome
[21:05:40] <Lydia_WMDE> Denny_WMDE and i wanted to do this one a bit differently
[21:05:44] <Micru_Wikisource> I'm here for the office hour too
[21:05:50] <Lydia_WMDE> we wanted to start with a short status update
[21:05:53] <Denny_WMDE> great to have you with us Micru_Wikisource
[21:05:56] <Lydia_WMDE> and then go to questions and discussions
[21:06:10] <Lydia_WMDE> Denny_WMDE: do you want to or shall i?
[21:06:13] -*- yurik gives the talking pillow to Lydia_WMDE
[21:06:17] <Lydia_WMDE> :D
[21:06:17] <Denny_WMDE> I'll do it :)
[21:06:19] <Lydia_WMDE> cool
[21:06:24] <Lydia_WMDE> stage is yours then
[21:06:38] <Denny_WMDE> as you know we have started collecting language links last year
[21:06:59] <Denny_WMDE> the awesome editor community and a few hard-working bots have created a huge data set of language links
[21:07:09] <Denny_WMDE> that have been deployed to the hungarian wikipedia on january 14
[21:07:11] <Lydia_WMDE> <3
[21:07:22] <Lydia_WMDE> ^ for the editors
[21:07:23] <Denny_WMDE> and received there with great enthusiasm
[21:07:38] <Denny_WMDE> two weeks later, we went to italian and hebrew
[21:07:47] <Denny_WMDE> hebrew allowed us to see if our right-to-left works
[21:07:50] <aubrey> (\o/)
[21:07:57] <Denny_WMDE> and italian is four times as big as hungarian
[21:08:05] <Denny_WMDE> and one of the biggest wikipedias in general
[21:08:13] <Denny_WMDE> and everything went well
[21:08:16] <HenriqueCrang> i am here for office hours too
[21:08:27] <Denny_WMDE> this week we turned the switch on the english wikipedia
[21:08:28] <Lydia_WMDE> hey HenriqueCrang
[21:08:45] <Sven_Manguard> I must say that while I called that it would not deploy correctly to English the first time, I'm pleasantly surprised that you managed it so quickly
[21:09:02] <Denny_WMDE> the deployment had a few hiccups, yes
[21:09:14] <Sven_Manguard> less than most on that project though :D
[21:09:45] <Denny_WMDE> the hiccups were not related to wikidata mostly
[21:10:07] <Denny_WMDE> on monday, the issue was that we also switched on support for languaglinks to the min.wikipedia
[21:10:18] <Denny_WMDE> and that lead to some trouble with caches
[21:10:25] <Denny_WMDE> so that we had to call a stop on deploying wikidata
[21:10:34] <Scott_WUaS> Hello
[21:10:38] <Denny_WMDE> on tuesday we actually went life for a few minutes
[21:10:44] <Denny_WMDE> before we were switched off again
[21:10:56] <Denny_WMDE> because of unrelated issues with the infrastructure
[21:11:07] <JAnD> It wasn't best idea to run new Wikipedia in the same time as deploying WIkidata...
[21:11:18] <Denny_WMDE> JAnD: agreed
[21:11:25] <Dragonfly6-7> IE 8.0.6001
[21:11:28] <Dragonfly6-7> do you need more details>
[21:11:34] <Denny_WMDE> we didn't expect there to be interactions, but heck, it happened
[21:11:40] <Lydia_WMDE> Dragonfly6-7: we'll get to that when Denny_WMDE is finished :)
[21:11:54] <Denny_WMDE> so finally on wednesday we got deployed on english wikipedia
[21:11:59] <Denny_WMDE> and so far everything seems fine
[21:12:10] <Denny_WMDE> the bots seemed to have stopped reverting removal of language links
[21:12:20] <Scott_WUaS> great!
[21:12:23] <Denny_WMDE> and the servers are not measuring increased load
[21:12:23] <yurik> we had to block on late last night
[21:12:28] <yurik> *one
[21:12:35] <Denny_WMDE> yurik: ah, interesting to know
[21:12:58] <Denny_WMDE> we measure so far an increase of 0.2% cpu resources due to wikidata
[21:13:13] <Denny_WMDE> but that is not taking into account the reduction due to less parsing due to less wikitext
[21:13:21] <Denny_WMDE> so it might even out, no one knows right now :)
[21:13:42] <Denny_WMDE> the plan is to deploy to all the other wikipedias on march 6
[21:13:52] <yurik> might be hard to measure with Lua being deployed soon
[21:14:10] <Denny_WMDE> initially it was planned for february 27, but due to staff availability we had to move it a bit
[21:14:23] <yurik> :'-(
[21:14:27] <Denny_WMDE> yurik: very true. but Lua opens also a great new world
[21:14:36] <Scott_WUaS> all 285?
[21:14:44] <yurik> brave new world you mean ;)
[21:14:54] <Lydia_WMDE> Scott_WUaS: yes
[21:14:59] <Denny_WMDE> well, the ones left. all of them, yes
[21:15:15] <Lydia_WMDE> 282 should be left now :)
[21:15:25] <Denny_WMDE> at the same time we have deployed to much criticism and praise a first set of features regarding phase 2
[21:15:30] <Scott_WUaS> ok
[21:15:36] <Denny_WMDE> on itself
[21:15:45] <yurik> Denny_WMDE will manually edit all 285 settings files! such dedication!!!
[21:15:54] <Sven_Manguard> and in your inbox too Denny_WMDE :P
[21:16:00] <Denny_WMDE> yurik: actually aude will do that :)
[21:16:31] <Denny_WMDE> on monday we will have a small update of the site that we are currently working hard on
[21:16:49] <Denny_WMDE> we have a bit of a timing issue here, because some of the code is not finished yet, and we want to run proper testing before
[21:16:57] <Denny_WMDE> but moving is hard due to other reasons
[21:17:08] <Denny_WMDE> what we expect to have after monday deployment:
[21:17:19] <Denny_WMDE> * diffs for phase 2 edits in the history
[21:17:26] -*- Sven_Manguard cheers
[21:17:35] <Denny_WMDE> * automatic created comments for the diffs
[21:17:47] <Denny_WMDE> * ability to set items directly by their ID
[21:18:00] <Denny_WMDE> * and have the item selector widget with paging
[21:18:12] <Denny_WMDE> if we are lucky, they might be one or two more features
[21:18:17] <Denny_WMDE> but i don't want to promise yet
[21:18:19] <Stryn> sounds great :)
[21:18:26] <Denny_WMDE> some people are working this weekend to make that happen
[21:18:31] <Denny_WMDE> so huge thanks to them
[21:18:36] <Sven_Manguard> mind telling us what other features we *might* get?
[21:18:44] <Denny_WMDE> in a second :)
[21:18:49] <Denny_WMDE> so some stats:
[21:18:55] <Denny_WMDE> more than 4 million items so far
[21:19:05] <Denny_WMDE> more than 1000 active editors, which is really cool!
[21:19:09] <Denny_WMDE> 12 confirmed bots
[21:19:31] <Denny_WMDE> you are doing amazing work on defining properties: currently available properties
[21:19:42] <Denny_WMDE> and we can already see some external usage of wikidata
[21:19:49] <Denny_WMDE> which I am particularly excited about
[21:20:03] <Denny_WMDE> like magnus manskes work on visualising genealogy data from wikidata
[21:20:07] <Denny_WMDE>
[21:20:17] <yurik> i'm worried about the external use with the API that's bound to change :(
[21:20:22] <Denny_WMDE> and OmegaWiki using Wikidata links for their articles too :)
[21:20:41] <kipcool> ah that's me :)
[21:20:45] <Denny_WMDE> so that was my quick rundown of the status
[21:20:51] <Denny_WMDE> it's awesome, kipcool
[21:20:55] <Lydia_WMDE> \o/
[21:21:10] <Lydia_WMDE> i'll take questions andmake a list of them so we can answer them one after the other
[21:21:12] <Denny_WMDE> now you already started questions
[21:21:15] <Sven_Manguard> Denny_WMDE: FYI we've preapproved at least a dozen additional properties once we get things like TimeValue and StringValue
[21:21:17] <yurik> oooo! prettyyyy
[21:21:22] <Dragonfly6-7> *external* use ?
[21:21:28] <Denny_WMDE> Lydia_WMDE: will collect questions
[21:21:42] <Denny_WMDE> and i will answer them in the order she gives me the questions
[21:21:43] <Denny_WMDE> :)
[21:21:50] <Lydia_WMDE> Dragonfly6-7: use of wikidata data outside wikimedai
[21:21:52] <Lydia_WMDE> *wikimedia
[21:21:53] <Sven_Manguard> Denny_WMDE: my earlier one
[21:21:56] <Scott_WUaS> live, great editors rock! :)
[21:21:59] <Sven_Manguard> about direct editing
[21:22:10] <Sven_Manguard> bypassing the javasript for admins?
[21:22:41] <Dragonfly6-7> Lydia_WMDE - yes, that part I understand. But ... what could it be used *for*? I'm missing something.
[21:22:49] -*- jem- rises hand for a question
[21:22:58] <Lydia_WMDE> Dragonfly6-7: for example
[21:23:02] <Lydia_WMDE> jem-: shoot :)
[21:23:02] <Sven_Manguard> [15:00] Sven_Manguard How hard would it be to allow admins to bypass the javascript interface and directly edit pages? I ask because sometimes when something is added it becomes unmodiable and unremovable, and so the only way we've been able to fix them is by deleting the item and doing selective resotoration
[21:23:04] <Sven_Manguard> [15:00] Sven_Manguard so when situations like that occur, it'd be nice to have a way to directly cut out the offending statement
[21:23:56] <Lydia_WMDE> jem-: while denny is writing let me know what your question is
[21:24:01] <jem-> Ok
[21:24:03] <Denny_WMDE> So regarding this on: someone could actually write a tool for that already
[21:24:19] <jem-> Here I go
[21:24:19] <Denny_WMDE> there are API calls for getting the JavaScript directly
[21:24:23] <Denny_WMDE> and to setting it as well
[21:24:49] <Denny_WMDE> I am not completely sure this will actually clean up the stuck pages
[21:24:57] <Denny_WMDE> we actually have not figured out what is going on there
[21:25:07] <Denny_WMDE> and we are very much aware of these weird issues
[21:25:28] <Denny_WMDE> actually, it is a good idea, we should try to get them unstuck with the respective API call
[21:25:40] <Sven_Manguard> well as Canada (q16) proves, deletion and selective restoration *does* work, so the corruption is restricted to individual edits, it doesn't corrupt everything
[21:25:42] <Denny_WMDE> I'll ask one of the developers to help you with that next week
[21:25:51] <Sven_Manguard> thanks Denny_WMDE :D
[21:26:03] <Denny_WMDE> Lydia_WMDE: please remind me
[21:26:06] <Lydia_WMDE> ok
[21:26:09] <Lydia_WMDE> will do
[21:26:14] <jem-> I think it can be useful to have a common "Proceeding manual for Phase I activation" for the projects; the best way to get a list of the articles in which to remove interwikis = which are already "present" in wikidata, and even some bot code to do it; the best way to stop interwiki bots in those articles, if necessary (edit filter...?). Has this been thought?
[21:26:15] -*- Sven_Manguard cedes the floor to jem-
[21:26:19] <Lydia_WMDE> nope ;-)
[21:26:24] <jem-> :)
[21:26:25] <Lydia_WMDE> first Dragonfly6-7 !
[21:26:34] <Lydia_WMDE> Dragonfly6-7: you had issues with not being able to edit in IE
[21:26:43] <lbenedix1> btw: the User interface guidelines say: "User interface components may be implemented using jQuery UI (or other JavaScript libraries), provided that critical functions are still accessible with JavaScript disabled"
[21:26:57] <Denny_WMDE> the symptoms you described, Dragonfly6-7, sounded like if JavaScript was turned off
[21:27:08] <Dragonfly6-7> Lydia_WMDE - well, my father did.
[21:27:08] <Denny_WMDE> are you sure, JS works on your dad's computer?
[21:27:17] <Dragonfly6-7> IE 8.0.6001.18702
[21:27:25] <Denny_WMDE> we are testing against IE
[21:27:26] <Sven_Manguard> well it worked when he switched to firefox, right Dragonfly6-7 ?
[21:27:32] <Dragonfly6-7> Sven_Manguard - correct.
[21:27:41] <Denny_WMDE> i think also version 8.
[21:27:42] <Denny_WMDE> hmm
[21:27:50] <Denny_WMDE> we haven't seen that one yet
[21:28:00] <Denny_WMDE> here are the questions:
[21:28:03] <Lydia_WMDE> it's probably best to check if JS is enabled and then debug further if not
[21:28:06] <Denny_WMDE> is your father logged in or not?
[21:28:17] <Denny_WMDE> does your father have javascript enabled or not?
[21:28:26] <Denny_WMDE> this would help us a lot with getting to a solution
[21:28:49] <Sven_Manguard> Denny_WMDE: additionally, there are two pages on the project that are full protected. Would that effect his issue?
[21:28:55] <Lydia_WMDE> Dragonfly6-7: if oyu have those feel free to come to #wikimedia-wikidata to talk further about it :)
[21:29:05] <yurik> sorry to interject - could someone stop Xqbot please?
[21:29:05] <Denny_WMDE> feel free to either post a bug on bugzilla with that data, or to send an email, or to contact Lydia_WMDE in another way. she will make sure that the bug doesnt get lost
[21:29:27] <yurik> langlinking categories are not yet supported from what i can see
[21:29:35] <lbenedix1> I just tested with IE6, not working. I get object Object instead of the edit-links
[21:29:38] <Denny_WMDE> Sven_Manguard: ah, you mean he might have went to a protected page?
[21:29:46] <Sven_Manguard> maybe
[21:30:10] <Denny_WMDE> lbenedix1: Dragonfly6-7 was mentioning IE8
[21:30:18] <Denny_WMDE> Sven_Manguard: yes, that could be
[21:30:19] <Sven_Manguard> I know Canada is full protected because if you touch a statement, it braks. Other people might have locked down other pages
[21:30:30] <Sven_Manguard> breaks*
[21:30:38] <Denny_WMDE> yeah, that could be
[21:30:39] <Emw> would a page be considered as the number of properties grow, with a simple search interface like
[21:30:45] <rschen7754> yurik: looking
[21:30:49] <Lydia_WMDE> Emw: added to the list
[21:31:04] <Micru_Wikisource> Denny_WMDE, I would like to update you on the IEGrant that had some parts related to Wikidata, may I?
[21:31:06] <Denny_WMDE> Dragonfly6-7: does this answer your question?
[21:31:21] <Denny_WMDE> Micru_Wikisource: as soon it's your queue
[21:31:29] <Denny_WMDE> Lydia_WMDE will call you out :)
[21:31:35] <Lydia_WMDE> muahahah
[21:31:37] <Lydia_WMDE> :D
[21:31:51] <Lydia_WMDE> ok next one then:
[21:31:52] <Lydia_WMDE> [21:26:14] <jem-> I think it can be useful to have a common "Proceeding manual for Phase I activation" for the projects; the best way to get a list of the articles in which to remove interwikis = which are already "present" in wikidata, and even some bot code to do it; the best way to stop interwiki bots in those articles, if necessary (edit filter...?). Has this been thought?
[21:31:53] <Micru_Wikisource> ok, good to know :)
[21:32:03] <addshore> yurik: there is nothing wrong with that edit is there?
[21:32:32] <Denny_WMDE> jem- I agree. But I also think that this is something the community should take care of
[21:32:35] <yurik> it removed tr: link, but there is no such article in wikidata
[21:32:36] <addshore> oh yes there is
[21:32:40] <Lydia_WMDE> jem-: there is actually already such a page
[21:32:46] <Lydia_WMDE> it could use more work though
[21:32:47] <Denny_WMDE> if there is anything you need help from the devs, let us know and we will provide help
[21:32:49] <Lydia_WMDE> i'll get a link
[21:32:58] <jem-> I know about the FAQ
[21:32:58] <Sven_Manguard> jem-: please let me know what you want me to add to it, since I wrote the help page, IIRC
[21:33:16] <Sven_Manguard> well, I wrote a help page, we need several more
[21:33:18] <Lydia_WMDE>
[21:33:23] <Sven_Manguard> but I won't have that kind of time until May
[21:33:28] <jem-> Yes, that FAQ
[21:33:30] <Lydia_WMDE> this will be linked to in the note to all village pumps about the deployment
[21:33:30] <Denny_WMDE> we try to avoid, as devs, to tell the communities what they have, should, or should not do :)
[21:33:42] <jem-> But I miss some concrete information for the project admins
[21:33:54] <jem-> Like the one I pointed out before
[21:34:02] <Lydia_WMDE> jem-: please add :) i'm happy to help answer questions
[21:34:05] <Dragonfly6-7> Lydia_WMDE, Denny_WMDE - I've gone into some detail on #wikimedia-wikidata
[21:34:08] <Sven_Manguard> jem-:
[21:34:20] <Lydia_WMDE> Dragonfly6-7: thx - will get to it after office hour, ok? :)
[21:34:25] <Sven_Manguard> let me know what's missing from that
[21:34:36] <Dragonfly6-7> sure
[21:34:44] <jem-> I'll do, Sven_Manguard
[21:35:00] <Sven_Manguard> by PM or talk page message please, preferably the latter
[21:35:07] <Sven_Manguard> I'm user:Sven Manguard
[21:35:24] <Lydia_WMDE> Sven_Manguard: thx btw to you and everyone else writing those help pages
[21:35:28] <Lydia_WMDE> much apprechiated
[21:35:30] <Sven_Manguard> :D
[21:35:35] <Denny_WMDE> and making great presentations
[21:35:38] <Lydia_WMDE> yes!
[21:35:45] <Denny_WMDE> and imaginative images
[21:35:48] <Lydia_WMDE> :D
[21:35:49] <Denny_WMDE> and so much more :)
[21:36:00] <Lydia_WMDE> ok - next one?
[21:36:07] <Denny_WMDE> and also for criticizing the project
[21:36:12] <yurik> i can do that!
[21:36:17] <aubrey> ok, I'll try
[21:36:18] <jem-> Well, by the way, are you going to put a message on all the village pumps?
[21:36:29] <Lydia_WMDE> jem-: yes i will
[21:36:32] <yurik> Lydia_WMDE: and I were writing it
[21:36:35] <Lydia_WMDE> jep :)
[21:36:38] <yurik> need the final review i guess
[21:36:42] <jem-> Ok, perfect then
[21:36:50] <yurik> should i go?
[21:36:57] <aubrey> go yurik
[21:36:59] <Denny_WMDE> next question?
[21:36:59] <Sven_Manguard> Lydia_WMDE has the list
[21:37:01] <yurik> non-main namespace support - fails
[21:37:02] <Sven_Manguard> or okay
[21:37:04] <aubrey> I'm preparing
[21:37:06] <aubrey> :-)
[21:37:12] <Lydia_WMDE> next one: [21:30:39] <Emw> would a page be considered as the number of properties grow, with a simple search interface like
[21:37:17] <yurik> oops, sorry
[21:37:21] <yurik> i thought i was to go next :)
[21:37:25] <jem-> Lydia_WMDE: Maybe that message with the points I wrote about could fulfill my question
[21:37:28] <Lydia_WMDE> aubrey: have one? let me know and i'll queue it
[21:37:33] -*- Sven_Manguard seconds Emw's request!
[21:37:35] <Lydia_WMDE> jem-: ok
[21:37:41] <aubrey> ok Lydia_WMDE
[21:37:56] <aubrey> me and Micru (and Tpt) are prosing a grant for Wikisource
[21:37:57] <aubrey>
[21:38:10] <aubrey> and there are at leat 2 points regarding wikidata
[21:38:16] <Lydia_WMDE> aubrey: noted
[21:38:23] <Denny_WMDE> Emw: that is a good question
[21:38:31] <aubrey> first: we would like to work on the template Sister
[21:38:44] <Lydia_WMDE> aubrey: i have one from Micru_Wikisource for that already actually - it's the next one
[21:38:57] <aubrey> uh, ok
[21:38:58] <Sven_Manguard> Lydia_WMDE: for the queue - any word on whether or not projects other than Wikipedias (like, for example, Wiktionary or Wikispecies) interwiki links are going to be supported?
[21:39:04] <Lydia_WMDE> k
[21:39:07] <Denny_WMDE> I think that the improved entity selector together with Special:AllPages should need to that not being needed
[21:39:21] <Denny_WMDE> but if it turns out after that that it is not sufficient,
[21:39:31] <Denny_WMDE> we will have to think about better ways to make properties searchable
[21:39:39] <Denny_WMDE> and since the labels of properties are unique
[21:39:48] <Denny_WMDE> such a special page could be a simple and easy solution, yes
[21:39:57] <Micru_Wikisource> continuing on what aubrey said, we had to drop some goals that required modifications in the software (there is not enough WMF Tech staff for code reviewing), but one of the proposals we were working on and that was related to Wikidata might bring some ideas about how to handle interwikis and sister project links. I prepared a short slideshow (less than 1min to read) >>
[21:40:02] <JAnD> on small wiktionaries the interwiki bots means 90% of edits
[21:40:15] <Sven_Manguard> Denny_WMDE: we could automate somehow?
[21:40:54] <Emw> the Special:AllPages solution works, but only if one knows about it. i guess my proposal is to surface that functionality to make it discoverable for many more people
[21:40:57] <Denny_WMDE> Sven_Manguard: yes, I guess, that would be the idea
[21:41:12] <Denny_WMDE> yes, that is a good idea
[21:41:24] <Denny_WMDE> but i wonder a bit why?
[21:41:36] <Denny_WMDE> properties are only searched for when entering statements, no?
[21:41:49] <Denny_WMDE> or do you think people are genuinely interested in properties per se?
[21:41:56] <Sk1d> Will it be possible to use more then one datatype for a property so e.g. string + item (if no item exist only place a string)?
[21:41:59] <Sven_Manguard> yeah, but we want people to be able to see what the current properties are so that they know which ones they need to add
[21:42:08] <Denny_WMDE> ok, good point
[21:42:21] <Denny_WMDE> so, yes, we should work on that
[21:42:24] <Sven_Manguard> so I could check the list and see "oh, I forgot that there's grandparent field"
[21:42:48] <Denny_WMDE> Sven_Manguard: oh for that I expect a very different solution
[21:43:07] <Sven_Manguard> do tell?
[21:43:21] <Denny_WMDE> Emw: i will put on our todo list an item to surface the list of properties more onviously
[21:43:34] <Emw> Denny_WMDE: thanks!
[21:43:39] <Denny_WMDE> but i do not see an immediate need for that, i.e. there are things more urgent than that
[21:43:47] <Denny_WMDE> but i do agree with that need eventually
[21:43:57] <Lydia_WMDE> we have about 15 mins left
[21:44:04] <Dhevo> May i comment?
[21:44:20] <Denny_WMDE> yes
[21:44:52] <Denny_WMDE> (just quickly to Sven_Manguard follow up: there is much interesting research on "items using these properties and values also use these properties… that could be exploited better than a general overview of properties)
[21:45:06] <Denny_WMDE> (but i do not want to disgress too much)
[21:45:24] <Dhevo> I work as a programmer and i see that wikipedia lacks many features wich are compatible with many modern browsers
[21:46:03] <hoo> Dhevo: I think we're going off topic here... but what exactly do you mean with features?
[21:46:04] <Dhevo> While i see that the psudo HTML-5 enabled video player is there
[21:46:12] <Denny_WMDE> Dhevo, you are commeting on Emw's question?
[21:46:19] <Dhevo> nope
[21:46:23] <Dhevo> I'll wait at the end
[21:46:30] <Emw> wrt the search interface for properties, one example is at (e.g. click 'GO term or ID' and search for 'DNA repair')
[21:46:39] <Denny_WMDE> yep, ok, thanks. lydia, next question?
[21:46:45] <Lydia_WMDE> next we had a lot of questions about the grant proposal - this one is probably a good summary to start that topic: [21:39:57] <Micru_Wikisource> continuing on what aubrey said, we had to drop some goals that required modifications in the software (there is not enough WMF Tech staff for code reviewing), but one of the proposals we were working on and that was related to Wikidata might bring some ideas about how to handle interwikis and sister project links. I prepared a short slideshow (less than 1min to read) >>
[21:47:21] <Denny_WMDE> repost the link?
[21:47:25] <Denny_WMDE> it tells me it doesnt exist
[21:47:33] <Denny_WMDE> but Micru_Wikisource — what is the question?
[21:47:43] <aubrey> it regards crosswiki links
[21:48:01] <Micru_Wikisource>
[21:48:02] <Micru_Wikisource> well, it would be great if you could take a look and comment
[21:48:03] <Micru_Wikisource> maybe now?
[21:48:16] <Lydia_WMDE> i think this is better after the office hour
[21:48:23] <Lydia_WMDE> so we can get a few more questions done
[21:48:26] <Lydia_WMDE> what do you think?
[21:48:33] <Lydia_WMDE> only 12 mins left
[21:48:40] <aubrey> we would like to know if Wikidata would help making "automagic" crosslinks for every page
[21:48:56] <aubrey> as it does with interlinks
[21:49:09] <aubrey> that would be helpful for Sister templates
[21:49:35] <Emw> that'd be neat
[21:49:36] <Micru_Wikisource> ok
[21:49:36] <Denny_WMDE> Micru_Wikisource: in short, there is much in the proposal which goes well beyond Wikidata and touches on issues of identity of some projects that i cannot comment on
[21:49:36] <aubrey> and maybe, as Micru proposes, a brand new interface with tabs for every project
[21:50:04] <Micru_Wikisource> Denny_WMDE, true, only the first part concerns Wikidata
[21:50:13] <Denny_WMDE> Micru_Wikisource: regarding supporting language links to other than Wikipedias, requires to approach the other communities and them us, and then to talk and see
[21:50:15] <Scott_WUaS> World University and School ( - -, like Wikipedia with MIT OpenCourseWare, with free, Creative Commons' licensed, MIT-centric, accredited, university degrees planned in many languages/countries, and planned as wiki-schools in all 7,413+ languages and 204+ countries, would like to deploy in Wikidata, but we don't yet have
[21:50:15] <Scott_WUaS> folks who do SQL. Denny, Lydia, and friends, what would you suggest as the best way to explore such a deployment, and to further this Wikidata-WUaS, deployment conversation?
[21:50:39] <Denny_WMDE> but i think that in general this is something that is not too far on the horizon, I'd assume
[21:50:46] <Denny_WMDE> given the respective projects wants that
[21:50:59] <Denny_WMDE> Micru_Wikisource: good enough? :)
[21:51:05] <Denny_WMDE> Lydia_WMDE: next question?
[21:51:08] <Lydia_WMDE> [21:38:58] <Sven_Manguard> Lydia_WMDE: for the queue - any word on whether or not projects other than Wikipedias (like, for example, Wiktionary or Wikispecies) interwiki links are going to be supported?
[21:51:28] <aubrey> (it's kinda the same question :-)
[21:51:31] <Denny_WMDE> yep :)
[21:51:41] <Denny_WMDE> so in short, we might know more about this rather sooner than later
[21:51:48] <Denny_WMDE> but for now we cannot make any promise about timelines
[21:52:09] <Denny_WMDE> but i would not be surprised if we could technically support this within a modest timeframe
[21:52:17] <Denny_WMDE> dont make me say more, i must not :)
[21:52:20] <aubrey> uh, ok
[21:52:21] <Denny_WMDE> next question? :)
[21:52:25] <Lydia_WMDE> next one: [21:41:54] <yurik> 1) ItemByTitle seem to fail on non-main namespace. Is that supported? example:
[21:52:35] <Micru_Wikisource> Denny_WMDE, thanks for the answer!
[21:52:52] <hoo> It will be
[21:52:58] <Denny_WMDE> yurik: yes, sorry. it should be fixed after monday
[21:53:13] <JAnD> One more question - pages with no interwiki link have no possibility to go directly to Wikidata. . And the same situation is with new pages, but maybe item on wikidata exists, but how to find it and how to add it (best way)?
[21:53:15] <Lydia_WMDE> next one: [21:42:57] <yurik> 2) is it planned/supported to have a local dev setup of the client extension that would use the public wikidata repository as the repo. That would greatly help with debugging various issues against an already existing dataset
[21:53:21] <Lydia_WMDE> JAnD: listed
[21:53:39] <Denny_WMDE> (oh wait, did i promise too much (re yurik). it will be fixed soon, but it might be the one deployment after this one. not completely sure right now, sorry)
[21:54:01] <yurik> np, but the bot was making that edit, need to notify
[21:54:17] <Denny_WMDE> yurik: yes, it is planned to have that. we don't know the timeline yet, but it's on our todo list
[21:54:42] <Denny_WMDE> yurik: very very definitively planned.
[21:54:49] <Denny_WMDE> next question?
[21:54:51] <Lydia_WMDE> next one: [21:43:43] <yurik> 3) NavPopup gadget might be a huge help to editors and will make "preview" gadget obsolete, but it needs help with good descriptive popups on Q & Ps. Is anyone working on that?
[21:55:15] <Scott_WUaS> (I'll also send my above, Wikidata-WUaS questions to you off-office hours :).
[21:55:29] <Denny_WMDE> sorry, what is the NavPopup gadget?
[21:55:35] <hoo> yurik: Not that I'm aware of ... have you asked on the community forum yet.
[21:55:48] <yurik> i have asked at the forums
[21:55:51] <Denny_WMDE> is that the one that shows you a preview when you hover over a link?
[21:55:52] <hoo> this is something the community has to deal with locally.
[21:55:56] <yurik> they don't know much about wikidata :)
[21:55:56] <hoo> Denny_WMDE: Yep
[21:56:04] <Denny_WMDE> ah, that's a cool one
[21:56:08] <yurik> navpopup is a link preview
[21:56:14] <Denny_WMDE> yeah, would be great to have that on wikidata
[21:56:18] <rschen7754> enwiki does not know much about wikidata
[21:56:21] <hoo> Denny_WMDE: Until you see the code :D (just kidding)
[21:56:26] <Denny_WMDE> the dev team won't do it on their worktime, though, sorry
[21:56:34] <yurik> ok, next pls
[21:56:37] <Lydia_WMDE> [21:47:01] <yurik> 4) what is the status with implementing enums - limiting property value to a specific set of allowed values
[21:56:48] <Denny_WMDE> not planned
[21:56:57] <yurik> (i do ask lots of questions)  :)
[21:57:02] <Lydia_WMDE> ;-)
[21:57:13] <Denny_WMDE> i know that there are many people who would like that feature, but I am still fighting against this oe
[21:57:16] <Denny_WMDE> *one
[21:57:57] <Denny_WMDE> a better suggester should replace the need for an enum, together with bots checking stuff, but we are not planning to support this in the software
[21:58:11] <yurik> with a huge number of potential values, this might be a huge help for the common properties - like sex - picking from 3 is much better than picking from 3,000,000
[21:58:21] <Denny_WMDE> a better suggester can solve that
[21:58:29] <Denny_WMDE> without the need to really restrict it
[21:59:05] <yurik> ok, but this seems like a pressing issue for the editors
[21:59:24] <Sven_Manguard> I'm torn on this, but I do think that bots would be able to, in the future, be able to look at all instances of a Statement and check to see if any instances seem to contain something other than one of the approved items for that statement
[21:59:38] <Denny_WMDE> Lydia_WMDE: can you put on my todo list to write a blog post on why this feature probably will not come?
[21:59:44] <Lydia_WMDE> Denny_WMDE: k
[21:59:54] <Denny_WMDE> Sven_Manguard: yes, i regard this a much better solution
[21:59:55] <Emw> is there any function in wikidata to import and export items with their various properties?
[21:59:57] <Denny_WMDE> an anomalie detector
[22:00:12] <Sven_Manguard> Denny_WMDE: it's nowhere near as efficient though, hence why I am torn
[22:00:15] <Denny_WMDE> Emw: yes. you can get the json per item, and set it
[22:00:23] <Lydia_WMDE> next and last one of yurik's batch: [21:49:18] <yurik> 5) shrink down the statements - they take up too much visual space, unlike the langlinks table which is very good and readable
[22:00:26] <yurik> :D
[22:00:29] <Lydia_WMDE> ;-)
[22:00:31] <Emw> awesome
[22:00:31] <Sven_Manguard> there are a limited number of properties that would even ever need it though
[22:00:43] <yurik> i have more, but i can ask them some other time ;)
[22:01:16] <Denny_WMDE> yurik: thanks for the suggestion. we will think about it, but i want to have the references and qualifiers implemented first
[22:01:19] -*- Hazard-SJ isn't keeping up with what's happening in here
[22:01:33] <yurik> it might be restricted not by list but by membership with another property
[22:01:34] <Denny_WMDE> and then we can improve the used space
[22:01:39] <Lydia_WMDE> Hazard-SJ: log will be published :)
[22:01:45] <Emw> is there a way to inherit properties from other items, or must that be done manually?
[22:01:58] <Lydia_WMDE> Emw: manually
[22:02:01] <Denny_WMDE> Lydia_WMDE: next question?
[22:02:04] <Lydia_WMDE> [21:53:13] <JAnD> One more question - pages with no interwiki link have no possibility to go directly to Wikidata. . And the same situation is with new pages, but maybe item on wikidata exists, but how to find it and how to add it (best way)?
[22:02:13] <Lydia_WMDE> ^ end of my list atm
[22:02:16] <Hazard-SJ> Lydia_WMDE: And when it is, I probably won't read it :)
[22:02:20] <Denny_WMDE> hoo: has worked on solving that one :)
[22:02:22] <Lydia_WMDE> Hazard-SJ: hehe
[22:02:34] <Denny_WMDE> we hope to have it within the next few weeks deployed
[22:02:44] <hoo> JAnD: As Denny_WMDE already said, we will soon have a nice client dialog for that specific use case ;)
[22:02:52] <Denny_WMDE> yep
[22:03:00] <Denny_WMDE> next question?
[22:03:13] <Lydia_WMDE> none left on my list \o/
[22:03:15] <Jhs> I have a question for the queue if I'm not too late. Will there be cascading properties? E.g. it shouldn't be necessary to state that some city is in the country of Germany if it already has the property of being in the state of Schleswig-Holstein.
[22:03:21] <aubrey> don't know iif there is still time
[22:03:29] <Denny_WMDE> Jhs: that's a tough one
[22:03:30] <Emw> are there plans to enable items to automatically inherit properties from other items, even though it must be done manually now?
[22:03:31] <Sk1d> (21:42:01) Sk1d: Will it be possible to use more then one datatype for a property so e.g. string + item (if no item exist only place a string)?
[22:03:42] <Denny_WMDE> we currently don't have it on the short term list of things to do
[22:03:53] <aubrey> but I would like to ask what is the perspective, right now, with bibliographic data
[22:03:56] <Denny_WMDE> because there are some things of design that have to be answered first
[22:04:02] <Lydia_WMDE> Sk1d: sorry - missed
[22:04:15] <aubrey> because I can think of at least 3 different cases
[22:04:16] <Sk1d> np
[22:04:16] <Denny_WMDE> i have a longer text on that in the working for a while
[22:04:34] <Denny_WMDE> Sk1d: no, this will not be possible
[22:04:34] <aubrey> 1 is for data in Wikipedia infoboxes
[22:05:20] <Denny_WMDE> did we miss a question?
[22:05:29] <aubrey> 2 is for bibliographic data of scanned books stored in Commons. These data would serve Commons (in template Book) and Wikisource (in Index page and header template in ns0)
[22:05:46] <Scott_WUaS> Thank you for holding office hours, and bilingually!
[22:06:00] <aubrey> and 3 is for bibliographic data for Cite templates in Wikipedia
[22:06:01] <Lydia_WMDE> Scott_WUaS: :) trying our best!
[22:06:10] <yurik> i thought it was in english... did i understand another language without realizing it?
[22:06:16] <Scott_WUaS> you are the best! :)
[22:06:25] <Lydia_WMDE> yurik: lol
[22:06:26] <Lydia_WMDE> no
[22:06:32] <Lydia_WMDE> but we're doing a german one in a few days
[22:06:33] <yurik> seriously though, thank you))
[22:06:35] <Lydia_WMDE> 8th i think
[22:06:38] <Lydia_WMDE> :)
[22:06:42] <Denny_WMDE> aubrey: you were talking about different types for the same property?
[22:06:47] -*- yurik marks his calendar to ignore that one
[22:06:56] <kipcool> german, same channel?
[22:06:59] <Lydia_WMDE> yes
[22:07:07] <yurik> it should be /de
[22:07:13] <aubrey> Denny, yeah
[22:07:15] <Hazard-SJ> Lydia_WMDE: Was there any mention on the namespace search problem?
[22:07:25] <aubrey> I mean: we are deciding the properties of the book here
[22:07:26] <aubrey>
[22:07:28] <Lydia_WMDE> Hazard-SJ: sorry - please elaborate
[22:07:46] <Denny_WMDE> aubrey: yes, definitively I understand the use cases. but it can be circumvented. just have two different properties
[22:07:50] <aubrey> but I don't really understand which would be the scope of the book model we are designing
[22:08:01] <Denny_WMDE> later, when you use them in the wikipedias, you will be very happy for knowing the type of the value
[22:08:33] <Sk1d> Denny_WMDE: there could be aproblem with naming the properties
[22:08:41] <Hazard-SJ> Lydia_WMDE:
[22:08:41] <yurik> I do want to make an announcement though - please please give your feedback to the API proposal
[22:08:47] <Lydia_WMDE> Hazard-SJ: looking
[22:08:53] <Denny_WMDE> Sk1d: yes, very correct.
[22:08:59] <yurik> there are lots of bots being implemented now, and it will be much harder to change them later
[22:09:03] <aubrey> mmm. so I can define 2 different types for the same property? do you have a link for the documentation? I'm trying to study and understand Wikidata s amuch as I can but it'd difficult
[22:09:16] <Denny_WMDE> aubrey: no, you cannot do that
[22:09:22] <Sk1d> so maybe it could be possible to link properties of different types
[22:09:25] <Denny_WMDE> every property has one type
[22:09:36] <Hazard-SJ> yurik: One reason why I prefer to write bots that will have a long-term impact :P
[22:09:40] <Denny_WMDE> you would need to use different properties
[22:10:09] <Denny_WMDE> don't forget there's the mailing list
[22:10:14] <Denny_WMDE> feel free to use this for questions :)
[22:10:26] <Denny_WMDE> otherwise i would really love to thank everyone for being here
[22:10:34] <Denny_WMDE> this was the most intense office hour we had so far
[22:10:35] <yurik> I know I have emailed and posted about it, but people seem to be ignoring the fact that the main WD page states API is temporary :(
[22:10:36] <aubrey> ok, I will. I'm still confused about several things :-)
[22:10:50] <aubrey> :-)
[22:10:53] <yurik> what is wikidata? was this asked?
[22:11:01] <Denny_WMDE> aubrey: this means we need to improve on our docs :)
[22:11:08] <Denny_WMDE> yurik: I'm off :)
[22:11:18] <Lydia_WMDE> :D
[22:11:21] <yurik> hehe
[22:11:23] <Lydia_WMDE> thanks everyone!
[22:11:26] <Lydia_WMDE> you're awesome
[22:11:27] <aubrey> the Primer is really good
[22:11:28] <jem-> :)
[22:11:31] <yurik> thanks Denny_WMDE, that was some really fast typing
[22:11:31] <aubrey> (on Meta)
[22:11:37] <Denny_WMDE> aubrey: thanks (proud)
[22:11:44] <aubrey> the Data model is complicated though
[22:11:52] <Hazard-SJ> yurik: Look online for an answer :P That probably depends on what the community wants Wikidata to be :D
[22:11:57] <Denny_WMDE> yes, sorry. but we couldnt get it simpler
[22:12:19] <aubrey> i understand, because WikiData IS complex
[22:12:30] <yurik> nah, its just a pile of words and links
[22:12:37] <aubrey> but maybe, in the future, more maps/graphs should be helpful
[22:12:54] <Lydia_WMDE> haha yurik
[22:13:03] <yurik> could we please take over openmaps project now?
[22:13:09] <Lydia_WMDE> but yeah - as Denny said feel free to post more questions on-wiki or to the mailing list
[22:13:14] <yurik> we can just import their dataset
[22:13:15] <Lydia_WMDE> or come to #wikimedia-wikidata
[22:13:20] <aubrey> we will
[22:13:27] <Lydia_WMDE> :)
[22:13:30] <Lydia_WMDE> sweet