IRC office hours/Office hours 2011-02-18

Moushira joined the chat room.
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[1:52pm] aude: hi Moushira!
[1:52pm] Bence joined the chat room.
[1:52pm] Moushira: hey aude
[1:53pm] Bence: Moushira: thanks for your mail, re: chapters
conference; much appreciated
[1:53pm] Moushira: You are welcome, Bence !--always my pleasure as you know
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[1:57pm] Juandev|ill: good evening
[1:57pm] raystorm_ joined the chat room.
[1:58pm] Juandev|ill: errr or just hello:-)
[1:58pm] StevenW:
[1:58pm] StevenW: Hello to you too!
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[1:58pm] raystorm_: howdy ^^
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[1:59pm] StevenW: Hey killiondude
[1:59pm] killiondude: Hello.
[1:59pm] Juandev|ill: StevenW: how are you?
[2:00pm] zackexley joined the chat room.
[2:00pm] StevenW: Good Juan, and you?
[2:00pm] StevenW: I think everyone from the Foundation who is
scheduled to come is here in the channel now.
[2:00pm] StevenW: So we can start anytime now-ish
[2:01pm] * Juandev|ill is ill, but good, thx
[2:01pm] StevenW: Also, since we're likely going to be talking about
fundraising with chapters mostly, zackexley is here.
[2:01pm] StevenW: as is mhernandez_
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[2:01pm] raystorm_ joined the chat room.
[2:02pm] aude: hi zackexley !
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[2:02pm] zackexley: Hey!
[2:03pm] Shirley: We should wait for Ottava.
[2:04pm] Theo10011: Statistically unlikely.
[2:04pm] killiondude: This channel should really be +g.
[2:05pm] ldavis joined the chat room.
[2:05pm] StevenW: I think we're actually going to wait a minute for
more chapters-type folks to show up.
[2:05pm] StevenW: Since that's the reason we're here.
[2:06pm] StevenW: Though it is 8pm on Friday in Europe, so if it's
slow I wouldn't be surprised.
[2:06pm] del_droid joined the chat room.
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[2:06pm] raystorm_: true enough
[2:06pm] StevenW: Hey Delphine.
[2:06pm] Ottava joined the chat room.
[2:07pm] del_droid: hi
[2:07pm] Theo10011: That having been said.
[2:07pm] aude: need more north and south american chapters
[2:07pm] Theo10011: is Moushira here ?
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[2:07pm] bnewstead: Hi del_droid
[2:07pm] Moushira: Moushira is here Theo10011 ..
[2:07pm] del_droid: hi barry
[2:07pm] * Theo10011 waves.
[2:09pm] * StevenW wants to play the Jeopardy waiting music.
[2:09pm] bnewstead: hi Theo10011 - see you are keeping your normal
hours in India
[2:09pm] Theo10011: ya, for a little while longer.
[2:10pm] raystorm_ joined the chat room.
[2:10pm] Mitchazenia joined the chat room.
[2:10pm] aude: hi Mitchazenia !
[2:10pm] Mitchazenia: Afternoon
[2:11pm] Dereckson: Good afternoon.
[2:12pm] GerardM- joined the chat room.
[2:12pm] StevenW: Hoi GerardM-
[2:12pm] Ottava: Hi Mitch
[2:12pm] Mitchazenia: GerardM- long time no see (at least since
WikiVoices ended)
[2:12pm] Kingpin13 joined the chat room.
[2:13pm] GerardM-: Hoi ,,, Wikivoices sadly yes
[2:13pm] Theo10011: What is the topic for this office hour?
[2:13pm] GerardM-: chapter and fundraising right ?
[2:13pm] StevenW: Yeah
[2:14pm] GerardM-: as far as I am aware, there is a steady trickle
during the year of money we are given
[2:14pm] GerardM-: without the fundraising bar, the message of Jimmy
does not look as good is not as strong ...
[2:15pm] GerardM-: I would like to see a message that is more
effective during the year
[2:15pm] zackexley: yes
[2:16pm] zackexley: you're right - we've been meaning to change it
[2:16pm] zackexley: a very tiny amount of money comes in each day
[2:16pm] GerardM-: together it is substantial
[2:16pm] zackexley: we did actually change it a little, but you're
right that we need a better one to last through the year.
[2:16pm] GerardM-: add a picture in the message would already hel[p
[2:17pm] GerardM-: a different Jimmy photo for instance
[2:17pm] Theo10011: Interesting.
[2:17pm] zackexley: oddly, adding a picture to the appeal letter doesn't help
[2:17pm] del_droid: too creepy
[2:17pm] GerardM-: normally you come to the letter from the banner
where there is a picture
[2:18pm] MC8|away is now known as MC8.
[2:18pm] GerardM-: so the research does not necessarily stack up
[2:18pm] Mitchazenia: Sage's photo was probably the most opening one
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[2:18pm] zackexley: i would like to have the year-round appeal from an
editor, or series of editors actually
[2:18pm] Hprmedina left the chat room.
[2:18pm] Theo10011: Hey Zack
[2:18pm] Theo10011: an year round appeal?
[2:18pm] zackexley: We all thought Sage's was going to get the most
clicks. But it didn't.
[2:19pm] Mitchazenia: Which one ended up getting it
[2:19pm] Amgine: <checks the IRC office hours topic>
[2:19pm] zackexley: BTW: This stuff is not the topic - but just
pre-discussion stuff
[2:19pm] Ottava: Why would Sage's get the most? Jimbo is recognizable.
[2:19pm] StevenW: The heartwarming factor.
[2:19pm] StevenW: Babies etc.
[2:19pm] Ottava:
[2:19pm] Ottava: Maybe
[2:19pm] zackexley: The interesting thing about the banners we tested
is that people really wanted most of all a direct connection to
someone (Jimmy, an editor, Sue, etc) ABOUT wikipedia
[2:19pm] zackexley: and sage's banner introduced this other thing of "father"
[2:19pm] GerardM-: I loved that picture
[2:20pm] Ottava: But Wiki doesn't have the "oh! babies!" Demographic
[2:20pm] mhernandez_: Sage's banner was an appeal from an editor and
few father with a photo of an adorable baby
[2:20pm] StevenW: Amgine: topic is chapters and fundraising, but
wsince there aren't a huge amount of chapters-specific questions in
right now we're just talking casually about fundraising in general.
[2:20pm] StevenW: since*
[2:20pm] GerardM-: that is the editors ... not necessarily the readers
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[2:20pm] Ottava: Sage has a picture of me that would surely raise a
lot of money if it was put in an appeal
[2:20pm] zackexley: I think people are just very careful with their
time. They're not interested in someone's story about their baby
etc... They want to know what's up with wikipedia, the site they love
[2:20pm] Amgine: Heh. I could come up with a zillion chapters
questions, but I'll just be quiet for now.
[2:20pm] StevenW: Feel free to throw them in or PM with them Amgine.
[2:21pm] Amgine: Throw in where?
[2:21pm] raystorm_: I do have some chapter Q's as well
[2:21pm] StevenW: I meant in the channel
[2:21pm] GerardM-: if there is one thing Chapter that I truly should
write about it is the WIki loves Monumetns 2011 thing
[2:21pm] Amgine: Ah... what is a non-national chapter? is it autonomous?
[2:21pm] GerardM-: it is going to be huge
[2:21pm] Theo10011:
      Ragesoss /appeal
[2:21pm] Ottava: monuments?
[2:21pm] Theo10011: Sage's appeal ^
[2:22pm] GerardM-: yes Ottava
[2:22pm] Ottava: No, what do you mean by monuments
[2:22pm] Ottava: or link
[2:22pm] Ottava: or something
[2:22pm] aude: hi Ottava
[2:22pm] Amgine: If a national chapter doesn't exist, but someone
forms a local chapter, how does it gain recognition?
[2:22pm] Ottava: Hi Aude, how have you been?
[2:22pm] raystorm_: from the WMF?
[2:22pm] aude: good
[2:22pm] GerardM-:
[2:22pm] raystorm_: and chapcom, previously, of course
[2:23pm] StevenW: right
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[2:23pm] Bence: Amigne:
[2:23pm] StevenW: We should shift to chapters specifically now.
[2:23pm] StevenW: Amgine had a good question.
[2:23pm] Ottava:
[2:23pm] Ottava: that could be why I havent heard of it
[2:23pm] raystorm_: question -when and where is the chapters' Agreement signed?
[2:24pm] Ottava: Why is the UK and the rest not participating?
[2:24pm] Ottava: Too many monument images already?
[2:24pm] aude: Ottava: we may do a wikis-take- ___ event in DC,
relating to sarah's talk about artwork, and might do something in
[2:24pm] GerardM-: no idea
[2:24pm] Austin joined the chat room.
[2:24pm] GerardM-: they are welcome to
[2:24pm] Ottava: Aude - I think Sarah could probably handle the US
single handedly
[2:24pm] aude: with these guys:
[2:24pm] StevenW: raystorm_: Moushira can answer that.
[2:24pm] aude: Ottava: quite possibly
[2:25pm] raystorm_: Moushira? Hi?
[2:25pm] Ottava: I know people who are connected to the baltimore
heritage foundation
[2:25pm] Moushira: raystorm: hey - actually we are trying to have
those signed before the end of Feb --as soon as possible. If you can
help us poke chapters about it that would be great
[2:25pm] aude: so do i and they are interested
[2:25pm] GerardM-: there has already been talk with people in India
[2:25pm] Ottava: My ancestor's drum is one of two remaining major
relics of the Battle of Fort McHenry, so my family is in close with
many of the historians
[2:25pm] aude: spread our chapter (to-be) beyond DC and include the region
[2:25pm] Theo10011: Fascinating.
[2:26pm] aude: pretty cool, but not to derail the office hours now
[2:26pm] bnewstead: del_droid: will you address Amgine's question
since you are on ChapCom
[2:26pm] del_droid: i am not sure i understood the question
[2:27pm] Amgine: "what is a non-national chapter? is it autonomous?"
[2:28pm] Austin: I can field that one, if that's the extent of the question.
[2:28pm] Austin: (I know Delphine is typing with her thumbs.)
[2:28pm] StevenW: Go for it Austin.
[2:28pm] StevenW: And hi.
[2:28pm] Austin: Sorry for joining late. :0
[2:28pm] del_droid: there is, at this stage, only national or
sub-national chapters
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[2:28pm] Amgine: <grin> Have I *ever* stopped adding to quesitons?
[2:28pm] del_droid: thx austin
[2:29pm] Austin: Like Delphine says, the current framework is limited
to a very strict definition of a "chapter."
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[2:29pm] Amgine: NY
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[2:29pm] Austin: Most chapters are constrained to geopolitical boundries.
[2:29pm] raystorm_ joined the chat room.
[2:30pm] aude: del_droid, Austin, Moushira: what do you think of the
idea of a US chapters council to help coordinate among chapters in the
[2:30pm] aude:
[2:30pm] StevenW: It's too bad Pharos isn't here if we're going to
talk about this. He has thought a lot about the national/sub-national
[2:30pm] Austin: Usually, at the nation-state level.
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[2:30pm] Austin: In some cases, we've made exceptions where there was
still a geopolitical boundary, there's no overlap, and it basically
made sense?it's sort of an ad-hoc thing.
[2:31pm] raystorm_ joined the chat room.
[2:31pm] GerardM-: I am still against there not being a US chapter
[2:31pm] Austin: Wikimedia NYC was already functioning as a chapter
before achieving chapter status.
[2:31pm] StevenW: I think it will develop in time GerardM-
[2:31pm] StevenW: IMO
[2:31pm] aude: GerardM-: i think we want things locally as possible
but coordinate across chapters with an informal or semi-official
[2:31pm] raystorm_: shoot. bad connection. Moushira, I'm with
wikimedia Spain. we wish to sign it, we just don't know where/when
[2:31pm] Austin: We'd been debating this for a few years already, and
in the end it was a pragmatic solution to grant them chapter status.
[2:31pm] aude: things like fundraising (when we get to that point)
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[2:32pm] Amgine: Austin: Using the US as a theoretical basis, if a
national chapter forms will it retain its current autonomy,
[2:32pm] Austin: If, in the future, a "Wikimedia US" comes to be, that
will obviously change things.
[2:32pm] GerardM-: aude you can still do things locally
[2:32pm] Pharos joined the chat room.
[2:32pm] Austin: Amgine: Probably not, in my opinion.
[2:32pm] aude: hey Pharos !
[2:32pm] Austin: We have Wikimedia Hong Kong and Wikimedia Taiwan, as
a parallel.
[2:32pm] aude: just talking about US chapters, the chapters council, etc.
[2:32pm] Pharos: hi aude
[2:32pm] raystorm_: and in the future, Wikimedia Europe?
[2:32pm] aude:
[2:32pm] Moushira: raystorm: please email me
-- and thanks for being keen on signing the agreement
[2:32pm] htchien1: referring to Chap Agreement, is there a revised
version already?
[2:32pm] Pharos: ah, cool
[2:32pm] Austin: There's not currently a Wikimedia PRC, but if one
were to form we'd be facing similar issues.
[2:33pm] raystorm_: will do, thanks Moushira
[2:33pm] aude: GerardM-: we're expanding to have a chapter in DC, and
starting grassroots
[2:33pm] aude: but would like to try ways to coordinate shared efforts
when it makes sense, via the council
[2:33pm] GerardM-: aude organising is a very good thing ... that I
welcome very much
[2:33pm] Amgine: What about the case of Canada? Quebec has been
recognised by the Canadian government as "A nation within Canada".
[2:34pm] StevenW: I think we can take that htchien1
[2:34pm] Ottava: now if we only had a lang and a syne
[2:34pm] GerardM-: my problem is not with doing things locally but it
fouls up what the WMF is about
[2:34pm] Austin: But yes, as has been said, anyone can still organize
their meetups, Loves Art events, and so on.
[2:34pm] Pharos: yeah, and we also very much want to encourage more
local US groups
[2:34pm] bnewstead: Here is the chapters agreement
[2:34pm] Pharos: "nations" are not an issue in the US, but distance certainly is
[2:35pm] StevenW: same for Canada and Australia, a little bit?
[2:35pm] GerardM-: as it is, the WMF is not the global organisation it should be
[2:35pm] aude: Austin, del_droid , Moushira : still would like your
opinion about the council idea and maybe continue discussion beyond
the office hours
[2:35pm] * DarkoNeko think that a single chapter for the whole of india...
[2:35pm] bnewstead: Each chapter needs to sign this and Moushira will
follow up with those who haven't (you know who you are)
[2:35pm] raystorm_: would council have veto powers?
[2:35pm] raystorm_: I imagine that's what local chapters will want to know
[2:35pm] GerardM-: veto over what ?
[2:36pm] Austin: Speaking only for myself, US chapter development is
obviously an issue that needs to be tackled and a council may be the
[2:36pm] aude: raystorm_: i don't think so, it would be more an
advisory group at this point
[2:36pm] Austin: I'd be glad to stick around afterward and talk about it.
[2:36pm] aude: Austin: thanks
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[2:36pm] htchien1: thx StevenW and bnewstead
[2:36pm] Pharos: it would be more of a tool for coordination and advisory
[2:37pm] GerardM-: what about money ?
[2:37pm] raystorm_: I see. local chapters are asking for this?
[2:37pm] aude: things like the fundraiser are a bit of effort for each
individual chapter, but as a collective i think we can be more
successful in running fundraising, like the germans and other chapters
[2:37pm] Snowolf joined the chat room.
[2:38pm] aude: GerardM-: not sure about money, but maybe we can get a
grant at first to try it, then if it works, each chapter can
contribute soemthing
[2:38pm] raystorm_: bnewstead, we want to someone told us people from
the WMF might even come to Spain to sign it
[2:38pm] raystorm_: rumorology 2.0
[2:38pm] aude: don't think it would cost a lot to run, have an annual
meeting (e.g. at wiki conf nyc)
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[2:40pm] bnewstead: Where in Spain? I'm sure we'd have lots of staff
[2:40pm] DarkoNeko: near the beach if possible
[2:40pm] * DarkoNeko 'd come too !
[2:40pm] StevenW:
[2:40pm] raystorm_: Lol
[2:41pm] Amgine: One of the benefits of chapters having a budget is to
help make communication easier by being able to pay for rooms, etc.
Better than everyone converging on an agreed-upon coffee shop.
[2:41pm] del_droid: i want to go!
[2:41pm] Austin: Ibia
[2:41pm] Austin: +z
[2:41pm] Beria: Maria
[2:41pm] raystorm_: Beria
[2:41pm] Beria: Can I go to Spain too?
[2:42pm] raystorm_: of course ask the WMF for a grant! tee hee
[2:42pm] StevenW: It's sooo far for you Beria.
[2:42pm] Beria: too far indeed
[2:42pm] raystorm_: that's right, we're neighbours!
[2:42pm] GerardM-: Beria is in Portugal ,... rifht ?
[2:42pm] Beria: right
[2:42pm] Beria: 100km away from Spain
[2:43pm] raystorm_: then we really have to do
[2:43pm] Manuelt15: oh, only 100km? you can go walking
[2:43pm] raystorm_: something together
[2:43pm] GerardM-: that gets her to the border
[2:43pm] Beria:
[2:43pm] raystorm_: both chapters!
[2:43pm] bnewstead: Anyone have questions about the fundraising
[2:43pm] raystorm_: Lol, Walking!
[2:43pm] aude: are we taking more chapters questions for Moushira
[2:44pm] _jem_: Ehm, are we all supposed to be able to view the agreement?
[2:44pm] aude: bnewstead: why is the agreement on internal wiki?
[2:44pm] DarkoNeko: "you must log in to view the page"
[2:44pm] _jem_: Me too
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[2:44pm] raystorm_: me Roo
[2:44pm] raystorm_: too
[2:44pm] Beria: i can see it
[2:45pm] Beria: but says is a draft
[2:45pm] bnewstead: Sorry - we have had them housed on Internal in the
past. Any issue with moving it to Meta?
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[2:45pm] Beria: that is the agreement we need to sign bnewstead ?
[2:45pm] aude: bnewstead: please move to meta
[2:45pm] aude: would be good for chapters-to-be to be able to see
[2:45pm] raystorm_: how many agreements are there between chapters and WMF?
[2:45pm] Guest47422 joined the chat room.
[2:45pm] bnewstead: Beria: to clarify there are two agreements: 1.
Chapter agreement; 2. Fundraising agreement.
[2:46pm] raystorm_: second aude
[2:46pm] bnewstead: All chapters must have a chapter agreement.
[2:46pm] raystorm_: aja
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[2:46pm] Beria: raystorm_: 3
[2:46pm] rubin16 joined the chat room.
[2:46pm] rubin16 left the chat room. (Changing host)
[2:46pm] rubin16 joined the chat room.
[2:46pm] bnewstead: Only chapters participating in fundraising need to
sign fundraising agreement.
[2:46pm] okino joined the chat room.
[2:46pm] raystorm_: What's the third?
[2:46pm] Beria: but only one is a option for new chapter
[2:46pm] GorillaWarfare left the chat room.
[2:46pm] raystorm_: the fundraising one?
[2:46pm] Theo10011_ joined the chat room.
[2:47pm] aude: where's the chapters agreement... i guess they are
different for each chapter?
[2:47pm] aude: if the one linked on internal wiki the fundraising agreement?
[2:47pm] Beria: as far as i understand aude , they are not
[2:47pm] Bence: aude: there is a public version of the chapters
agreement at:
[2:47pm] aude: Beria: thanks
[2:47pm] raystorm_: they are standard
[2:47pm] StevenW: Thanks Bence
[2:47pm] aude: Bence: that helps
[2:47pm] raystorm_: afaik
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[2:49pm] LA2: are we solving problems? what problems are there?
[2:49pm] htchien joined the chat room.
[2:49pm] Bence joined the chat room.
[2:49pm] Amgine: Communicating is also useful. What is the current
status of chapters and fundraising?
[2:50pm] raystorm_: in Berlin, chapters are requiered to give a short
presentation of their activities, right?
[2:50pm] Pharos: yes
[2:50pm] Austin: It's sort of expected, yes.
[2:50pm] StevenW left the chat room. (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
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[2:50pm] raystorm_: newbies included
[2:50pm] killiondude: wb
[2:51pm] Pharos: newbies especially
[2:51pm] Austin: Yes, thirty-second presentations are perfectly fine.
[2:51pm] raystorm_: sorry if the questions are obvious, we're waiting
for access to the chapters' list
[2:51pm] GerardM-: <grin> getting the money and spending the money are
the two primary problems
[2:51pm] bnewstead: Amgine: anything specific you are interested in
about the status?
[2:51pm] raystorm_: Lol GerardM
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[2:51pm] GerardM-: what to do when you get two times what you budget for
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[2:52pm] raystorm_: what a lovely problem
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seven years ago our forefather came to this planet...oops, better
watch my big hat!)
[2:52pm] GerardM-: it happened this year to the Dutch chapter
[2:52pm] Amgine: Well, I'm intrigued by Wiki Canada, since for at
least the past 4 months I've been the person actually *doing* WMF
organizing in Canada...
[2:53pm] raystorm_: i guess they changed their strategic planning
accordingly, no?
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[2:53pm] GerardM-: they are in the process of refining their strategy yes
[2:54pm] ragesoss: QUESTION: will US chapters be allowed to
participate as tier-1 fundraising partners if/when they meet the
requirements other chapters have to meet for that?
[2:54pm] Ottava left the chat room. (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
[2:54pm] sj|: <waves at gerardm and rage>
[2:54pm] * ragesoss waves back.
[2:54pm] DarkoNeko left the chat room. (Quit: Pissing off 4chan: free.
Botnet hire: $1,000/month. For everything else, there's Masterc oh,
wait, not any more.)
[2:54pm] bnewstead: Amgine: that question is best pointed to ChapCom
as they are working on Wiki Canada's application.
[2:54pm] Moushira: Hey sj|
[2:55pm] raystorm_: my hour is up. thanks everyone
[2:55pm] Amgine: Thus raising the question of status, yes bnewstead?
[2:55pm] bnewstead: bye raystorm_
[2:55pm] sj|: hi moushira
[2:55pm] zackexley: what do you think sage?
[2:56pm] zackexley: how should we do it?
[2:56pm] aude: +1 for ragesoss 's question
[2:56pm] raystorm_: is there one of these weekly?
[2:56pm] ragesoss: I don't know.
[2:56pm] LA2 left the chat room.
[2:56pm] ragesoss: It seems tricky to me.
[2:56pm] zackexley: what do people think?
[2:56pm] zackexley: any opinions out there about it?
[2:57pm] aude: zackexley: opinions for what?
[2:57pm] raystorm_ left the chat room. (Remote host closed the connection)
[2:57pm] * aude had to step away for a minute
[2:57pm] ragesoss: But I'd like to see some mechanism by which US
chapters could have the same sort of means to run and fund their own
programs, without having to apply for a grant from WMF for each
project they want to undertake.
[2:57pm] Austin: Amgine: Wikimedia Canada is still in the application
process and still has unresolved issues; if you want to ask something
specific, feel free to e-mail ChapCom or me directly.
[2:58pm] Austin: Or post it on a wiki somewhere and draw our attention
to it; just as long as we know about it.
[2:58pm] aude: ragesoss: i think an issue is with the geoip, which is
only country specific
[2:58pm] Theo10011: bnewstead: do you foresee multiple chapters in
India in future?
[2:58pm] aude: it could be accurate enough to the state level (with some error)
[2:58pm] ragesoss: aude: that seems solvable, though.
[2:58pm] bnewstead: ragesoss: no reason that a chapter couldn't apply
for a grant to fund a series of programs and some administration to
support for a year.
[2:58pm] Pharos: it seems kind of less than right for every chapter
but US chapters to be allowed to participate in the fundraiser
[2:58pm] aude: Pharos: +1
[2:59pm] bnewstead: We are probably headed in this direction for a lot
of chapters.
[3:00pm] aude: bnewstead: we (wikimedia dc) would do that for our
first year, but then would want to work with wikimedia nyc to set up
mechanism to participate in the fundraiser
[3:00pm] okino left the chat room.
[3:01pm] bnewstead: Theo10011: good question. I think that is
something for you all in India to work out.
[3:01pm] htchien left the chat room.
[3:01pm] aude: austin: how does emailing chapcom work? seems like it
goes into a private discussion (w/o) us
[3:02pm] aude: is there a public forum to discuss chapters issues w/ chapcom?
[3:02pm] Amgine: Foundation-l <ducks>
[3:02pm] Austin: aude: e-mailing chapcom does go to a private list,
but we're conscientious about keeping people in copy on the
[3:02pm] Ottava joined the chat room.
[3:02pm] Pharos: is there any justification for excluding US chapters?
[3:03pm] Austin: You can also post on meta, but definitely e-mail us
to let us know that you posted, because it might be a week before
someone notices.
[3:03pm] bnewstead: I need to run...thanks all. Happy to follow up on
any questions..
[3:03pm] StevenW: Zack is going to tackle that Pharos
[3:03pm] Austin: It's not that it's secret, it's just that you get the
best response if something winds up in our inboxes.
[3:03pm] aude: bye bnewstead
[3:03pm] bdamokos joined the chat room.
[3:03pm] zackexley: Pharos: first of all, all groups and chapters in
the US **MUST** participate in the fundraiser. I kept saying this all
last year, internally and externally. But participate is different
form processing payments
[3:03pm] bnewstead: ...and we will look to move the fundraising
agreement to a public wiki and hope people will comment on it.
[3:03pm] bnewstead: happy weekend
[3:03pm] bnewstead left the chat room. (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.85
[SeaMonkey 2.0.11/20101206150522])
[3:04pm] mdale joined the chat room.
[3:04pm] aude: Austin: would you be willing to join our mailing list
for wikimedia-dc and discuss there? (in addition to chapcom list)
[3:04pm] zackexley: We need as many volunteers and chapter members to
participate in making the fundraiser the best it can be
[3:04pm] aude:
[3:04pm] Austin: aude: I would love to. Doing so now.
[3:04pm] aude: thanks
[3:04pm] zackexley: that means making it successful in $ terms and as
quick and painless as possible
[3:04pm] Austin: aude: looks like a 404?
[3:04pm] aude: i like avoiding private discussion as much as possible
and include our group in the discussion, much as possible
[3:05pm] Austin: I'm totally on board with avoiding private discussion.
[3:05pm] Bence left the chat room. (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
[3:05pm] aude: Austin: works for me
[3:05pm] zackexley: I don't think there's any chance that NY chapter
or other US chapters wouldn't get funded for anythign they want to do
that the wikimedia movement supports
[3:05pm] aude: we are listed here:
[3:05pm] bdamokos is now known as Bence.
[3:05pm] Pharos: would it not be sensible that local US chapters
should earn a share of fundraising in their region?
[3:05pm] Austin: aude: I think my IRC client went bonkers; got it now.
[3:05pm] zackexley: and you shouldn't have to apply for a bunch of
grants. I think that there is a streamlined process
[3:05pm] sj|: I'm with Pharos: I'd like to see US chapters
participate as any chapter does.
[3:05pm] aude: we will be moving forward with chpaters discussion
after our wikimania bid is finalised in march
[3:06pm] zackexley: what do you mean "earn a share" ?
[3:06pm] aude: zackexley: we should be able to know what portion of
donations came from NY state, from DC, Maryland, etc.
[3:07pm] aude: also consider our population, and maybe level our
chapters activities in formulating what our shares are
[3:07pm] zackexley: SJ: "Participation" is a given. In fact, we didn't
get enough participation from US chapters or other chapters in 2010.
I'm not criticizing chapters -- I know everyone is busy. But we could
have used more participation from everyone. So I don't exactly
understand this questions of WMF disallowing "participation"
[3:07pm] aude: we would also want a share (maybe for the chapters
council) to do outreach and build capacity in other areas of the US
[3:08pm] Ottava: What would chapters even do with their "share"?
[3:08pm] Ottava: unless it is buying beer and/or pizza, I don't see the point
[3:08pm] Amgine: Currently chapters use them for a range of things,
including staff wages Ottava.
[3:08pm] ragesoss: Well, I could imagine a DC chapter hiring a lobbyist or two.
[3:08pm] Pharos: international chapters use them for many things
[3:08pm] zackexley: What should determine a local chapters share? A
very large % of our $ comes from NY. A very small % comes from DC.
Does that mean NY should have a very large budget and DC have a very
small one?
[3:08pm] aude: no lobbyist!
[3:08pm] Pharos: we would like to do the same
[3:09pm] Ottava: ragesoss - why would we have lobbyists?
[3:09pm] Austin: I'd rather not weigh in on this, but speaking for
ChapCom I can say that no chapter has a status different from any
other, whether it's sub-national or not.
[3:09pm] aude: we don't lobby but we could do outreach, provide a
stipend for wikipedians-in residence
[3:09pm] Ottava: We aren't political
[3:09pm] sj|: zack: I wouldn't want to see any chapters treated
differently from others, from a fundraising perspective.
[3:09pm] Amgine: <blinks> Knowledge, and who has access to it, is
inherently political.
[3:09pm] aude: or hire an intern, fund more wiki-x-dc events, etc.
[3:09pm] Ottava: Non-profits aren't supposed to take political action.
Who do you think we are, the NAACP? SPLC? Any union?
[3:09pm] ragesoss: aude: why is lobbying out? Political issues are
within the scope of other chapters, and not within the scope of WMF.
[3:09pm] sj|: (or from other perspectives, really)
[3:10pm] aude: ragesoss: we are a 503c
[3:10pm] aude: that means we don't lobby, are not political
[3:10pm] Ottava: Anyway, lobbying isn't fun - I speak from experience
[3:10pm] aude: 501(c)(3)
[3:10pm] sj|: aude: you can lobby, within reason
[3:10pm] aude:
[3:10pm] sj|:
[3:10pm] Mitchazenia: To be honest, every other country involved have
had a head start on the US, and saying that the US should be limited
in what we can get from the foundation doesn't work. If anything it
should be reversed slightly
[3:10pm] Amgine: <nods> We're not a religion, after all.
[3:11pm] killiondude: prove it.
[3:11pm] Amgine: Is that a Shirleyism?
[3:11pm] aude: we are an educational organization
[3:11pm] Ottava: The Wiki Cult has more fanatics than most religions
[3:11pm] Ottava: aude - prove it
[3:11pm] Amgine: ENOUGH BAD PUNS.
[3:11pm] zackexley: My own opinion -- (there is no fixed policy on
this yet, I think) the principle should be that chapters be able to
fund all of their programs that the wikimedia movement supports. I
don't think we have a problem with that now. If we do, someone should
say so. And we should change the grants process to solve it.
[3:11pm] Amgine: eew, I typed caps.
[3:11pm] aude:
[3:12pm] diegogrez left the chat room. (Quit: bbl)
[3:12pm] Ottava: Anyway, here is the bigger issue - if a chapter
lobbies, chances are it will lobby for free culture stuff and not
primarily Wiki based stuff, which is a problem for those like myself
who do not believe in "free culture"
[3:12pm] aude: we could host lectures and educate about free culture,
but wouldn't donate to campaigns, etc.
[3:13pm] Ottava: I don't even like lectures about "free culture". Why
don't we just focus on Wiki and stay with that?
[3:13pm] Ottava: We are a free encyclopedia, lets lecture about what that means
[3:13pm] Zuzak is now known as MC8.
[3:13pm] Amgine: Ottava: Join your local chapter, be involved in
determining its interests and activities.
[3:13pm] aude: Ottava: we can
[3:13pm] jvandavier joined the chat room.
[3:13pm] Mitchazenia: As someone who works very hard with the NYC
money for events, I don't see a problem with what Zack wrote
[3:13pm] Ottava: Amgine - DC doesn't exist yet
[3:13pm] zackexley: I think that there might be other political
reasons to want local chapters to control all of the donations of the
people in their geographies. I think that's what your concern might be
SJ. And that's a worthwhile issue. If one thinks it's better to have

  • more* organizations controling the funds -- ie. the more the better

-- that's a legit position. ANd what's great is: You're on the board,
so you get to push for that if you like that position
[3:14pm] StevenW left the chat room. (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[3:14pm] aude: - we're in
process of forming a chapter
[3:14pm] Ottava: I think all donations should be devoted to primary server stuff
[3:14pm] aude: welcome people to signup but it's not official yet
[3:14pm] Ottava: I don't like the idea of diverting funds to what is
necessary for basic stability
[3:14pm] Ottava: from what*
[3:15pm] Ottava: aude - can't sign up, so
[3:15pm] aude: Ottava: not yet, but when you can
[3:15pm] Ottava: aude - I was indeffed, so I can never do so
[3:15pm] aude: grrr...
[3:15pm] Ottava: WizardOfOz didn't like that I opposed him
[3:15pm] Amgine: <snorts> "being involved" != "signing up for something"
[3:15pm] Moushira is now known as Moushira_afk.
[3:15pm] Pharos: every other chapter can join the fundraiser, that fact stands
[3:16pm] Pharos: it does not seem reasonable to deny to US chapters
[3:16pm] GerardM-: it is not
[3:16pm] Pharos: there are good reasons to not be reliant on WMF
grants for everything
[3:16pm] aude: Ottava: for server stuff, the german chapter runs the
toolserver which has become integral
[3:16pm] aude: it's possible for chapters to take on technical
projects like that
[3:17pm] aude: Pharos: +1
[3:17pm] Ottava: aude - I don't care about the proportion of
individual servers or even paying staff for server stuff
[3:17pm] Ottava: hell, you could say Sue is related to server stuff
[3:17pm] Ottava: I just don't like the idea of the single real source
of income to be touched
[3:18pm] zackexley: Pharos: If there was a US chapter, then would you
be OK with getting grants from the US chapter? Or would it be OK to
just have one US chapter and everything be a part of that?
[3:18pm] Amgine: You have to spend money to make money. Giving
chapters funds helps them more-actively support fundraising, which
tends to raise more funds in less time.
[3:18pm] Ottava: Look at what happened to Citizendium for an example
of when funds can no longer support - I'd rather not jeopardize wiki
by spending off excess
[3:18pm] Pharos: we already have a US chapter
[3:18pm] Pharos: soon we will have 2
[3:19pm] Pharos: We were approved by the WMF board
[3:19pm] Pharos: we should be treated as such
[3:19pm] Ottava: Amgine, the chapters only exist because of the Wiki
name, because of the work of thousands of users. The chapters only
matter because of the WMF. They only get attention from it. Lets not
act as if the chapters are the source of everything when it is the
[3:20pm] aude: Ottava: you mean by users, the editors
[3:20pm] aude: we want as many editors in the DC area to be part of our chapter
[3:20pm] Amgine: The international chapters are generally inclusive of
the most-active, most-productive members of their communities. Without
the communities, there is no WMF.
[3:20pm] aude: just be a member, continue volunteering however they
wish (writing on wiki, doing outreach, etc.)
[3:20pm] ragesoss: Ottava: that's not true. It varies by chapters, but
many chapters are significant players in their countries, and get
attention from editors and Wikipedia users and others there.
[3:20pm] aude: without editors being involved, there is no wikimedia dc chapter
[3:21pm] zackexley: Pharos: What if a Manhattan chapter starts? Should
it then get the $ from Manhattan? And NY from the rest of NY?
[3:21pm] sj|: zack: That's definitely part of the concern for chapters
as a whole.
[3:22pm] sj|: I'm concerned primarily that chapters are treated
equally, and secondarily about that political aspect.
[3:22pm] Pharos: We have an official chapter approved by sj and the board
[3:22pm] del_droid: zak
[3:22pm] sj|: (replying to your previous note, a few minutes back
[3:22pm] del_droid: under current rules
[3:22pm] Pharos: they only approve chapters they trust as god partners
[3:22pm] Guest34739 joined the chat room.
[3:22pm] Guest34739: blah
[3:22pm] del_droid: there can't be a manh chapter
[3:22pm] Guest34739: Amgine, the chapters only exist because of the
Wiki name, because of the work of thousands of users. The chapters
only matter because of the WMF. They only get attention from it. Lets
not act as if the chapters are the source of everything when it is the
[3:22pm] Pharos: obviously they would not aprove a manhattan chapter
[3:23pm] Pharos: because it overlaps with an existing chapter
[3:23pm] Guest34739: The chapters should always be under the WMF and
also be second fiddle
[3:23pm] Austin: Current rules require a distinct geopolitical entity
[3:23pm] zackexley: but chapters are not treated equally when they
have vastly different amounts of money in their jurisdiction. NY
would be rolling in money. DC would be poor. (based on our donor data)
[3:23pm] henna joined the chat room.
[3:23pm] Amgine: Sorry you missed my earlier response, Ottava. Will pm it.
[3:23pm] Guest34739: My cell reception kicked out from the wind
[3:23pm] Austin: Some might argue that a DC chapter might help fix that.
[3:23pm] Pharos: and Germany is riher than Macedonia
[3:23pm] Pharos: *richer
[3:23pm] Ottava left the chat room. (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
[3:24pm] Pharos: we would be very glad to share NY $ with DC
[3:24pm] aude: zackexley: i would take the US share, divide it among
the regional chapters based on some formula that considers proportion
of donations, population, and activities
[3:24pm] Bence: under the proposed new agreement both NY and DC would
only get max $50k -- not that I agree with it, but different status of
wealth has not stopped all the rest of the chapters from participating
[3:24pm] Pharos: what we are less than happy with is excluding US
chapters altogether
[3:24pm] zackexley: chapter activities don't impact donation amounts.
it's just a function of readership and income+donation behavior of the
[3:25pm] zackexley: Pharos: WMF is also glad to share that money with DC
[3:25pm] aude: zackexley: we have particularly active chapters/
activities in india and india is a priority
[3:25pm] Austin: Wow.
[3:25pm] Guest34739 is now known as Ottava.
[3:25pm] aude: they should perhaps get a greater share than what gets
donated from india
[3:25pm] * Austin re-reads that.
[3:25pm] aude: the formula should consider multiple factors like that
[3:25pm] Pharos: and I'm sure WMF is glad to share it with France too
[3:25pm] Austin: Nope, I think that said what I think it said.
[3:25pm] aude: where do we want to grow...
[3:26pm] Ottava: Aude - grow how?
[3:26pm] aude: like in india, africa, ec.
[3:26pm] aude: etc.
[3:26pm] Pharos: There is a reason France and Hong Kong choose not to
be dependent on WMF grants
[3:26pm] Ottava: No, I mean, pages or people?
[3:26pm] Ottava: quality or quantiy?
[3:26pm] Ottava: raising funds?
[3:26pm] Ottava: prominence/hits/traffic?
[3:27pm] aude: we might want to spend more money to do outreach in
kenya, for instance, versus what get's donated by kenyans
[3:27pm] sj|: Pharos: indeed.
[3:27pm] henna: zackexley: don't chapter activities impact readership?
[3:27pm] zackexley: OK - sorry everyone, we're 25 minutes over. I've
got to go. Also: to be clear, the questions I was raising don't
represent WMF policy or opinions of these questions. The board sets
WMF policy on those kinds of questions. And also: I really am just
raising questions. I personally think there are all different ways of
arranging things that will work well for everyone.
[3:27pm] * aude is curious how the red cross allocated its funds
[3:28pm] Pharos: with all due respect, the board never decided to
eclude US chapters
[3:28pm] sj|: zack: that's good data to share! re: what impacts
donations. sounds like it could be a controversial and fruitful
[3:28pm] Ottava: Aude - will outreach to Kenya, say, provide an amount
of contributors worth the monetary investment?
[3:28pm] aude: Ottava: don't know but suspect it would
[3:28pm] Ottava: Are there enough people with internet connections and
access to resources to, say, build articles?
[3:28pm] aude: same with india
[3:28pm] aude: kenya, definitely
[3:29pm] Ottava: Are there any studies which do the cost/risk or
cost/gain analysis?
[3:29pm] zackexley: sj: I don't think it's controversial.
[3:29pm] sj|: pharos: right. this seems like a good topic to bring up
in our next meeting (as zack noted above).
[3:29pm] aude: that's probably something the global outreach team can research
[3:29pm] Austin: I think there are enough people in this channel that
would disagreed. QED.
[3:29pm] Austin: -d
[3:29pm] Ottava: I would think going after Brazil, with a huge
population and growing middle class would be more "bang for buck" than
an African nation with little infrastructure. Not to be racist, just
demographic oriented.
[3:29pm] sj|: zack: it may be crystal clear from available data, but I
think people would be surprised to see it
[3:29pm] zackexley: Pharos: France and Hong Kong aren't dependent on
WMF grants, but they are dependent on banners and landing pages served
by WMF servers.
[3:30pm] aude: i think brazil is indeed a priority for WMF, after india
[3:30pm] zackexley: the point is: the whole WM movement is dependent
for funding on the WM project readership
[3:30pm] sj|: zack: right. I think pharos is mainly asking for parity
with other chapters. (many of whom have a smaller population, editing
population, and readership than nyc
[3:30pm] Ottava: Aude - I know it is, but I'm using it as a comparative example.
[3:30pm] zackexley: fundraising is not accomplished by WMF activities
or chapter activities
[3:30pm] Ottava: If I donate money, my concern is that it is optimally used
[3:31pm] aude: Ottava: agree
[3:31pm] sj|: aude: I like your thoughts on focus; it's hard to define
once this becomes a question of tradeoffs
[3:31pm] sj|: since at the moment we have only very general priorities
about specific areas.
[3:31pm] zackexley: Ottava: that is what all WM donors are most concerned with
[3:31pm] Austin: Zack: I respectfully disagree, but we don't have to
argue about it now.
[3:31pm] Ottava: zackexley - so do you see my point about ensuring
that funds for servers are not touched?
[3:31pm] sj|: working on those priorities (say, on the movement-wide
strategy one level of detail deeper than what was boiled down to the
WMF 5-year plan) will help a lot.
[3:31pm] aude: sj| suppose we can modify the formula in future years
to take that into account more
[3:32pm] zackexley: Austin: the exception is major gifts or grants
that are won by chapters or WMF.
[3:32pm] aude: for this year, i think US-based chapters like NYC
should definitely be allowed to participate, as step #1
[3:32pm] zackexley: But it's Wikipedia and the other projects that are
doing the work of bringing in donations
[3:32pm] sj|: I'd like to see those strategic discussions continuing,
with chapters as well as the individual proposal writers; and
combining some of the chapter-level priority discussions.
[3:32pm] Ottava: aude - you mentioned fellowships for chapters - to do what?
[3:32pm] sj|: similar to anthere's comment on the talk page on
internal about having pan=chapter discussions of allocating resources
and setting targets
[3:32pm] aude: within the US, there could be regions where could do
more outreach
[3:33pm] ragesoss: aude: you mean, like everywhere?
[3:33pm] zackexley: SJ: but why just pan-chapter? It should be pan-movement
[3:33pm] aude: Ottava: to have wikipedians-in-residence, for example
at the smithsonian
[3:33pm] aude: they might be paid by the smithsonian or could be
shared funding for the position
[3:33pm] zackexley: it is our editor community that does the work of
bringing in our donations, because they are creating the projects that
people are paying to support
[3:34pm] Ottava: aude - hmm. I don't like that idea, to be honest - I
think it would be better to give fellowships to different grad
students who would then produce research material from various sources
[3:34pm] * aude has had inadequate time personally to work with the
smithsonian and thinks a dedicated person would help enormously to
forward that work
[3:34pm] Austin: I think that underestimates the work chapters do to
raise awareness of those projects.
[3:34pm] aude: grad students would be good too, maybe continuing the
public policy (type) program in some way
[3:34pm] Ottava: Or a fellowship that would provide funds while
someone works on a dissertation but require that dissertation to be
CC-BY-SA-whatever it is now
[3:34pm] aude: for the smithsonian, we would probably want a grad
student for that role
[3:34pm] Ottava: that would get more media and academic attention
[3:35pm] aude: Ottava: interesting idea
[3:35pm] Ottava: the archives are more important than the smithsonian,
to be honest
[3:35pm] Guest47422 is now known as bz_g.
[3:35pm] Ottava: so many images to copy, files to upload, etc
[3:35pm] aude: yes, the archives! both important
[3:35pm] sj|: zack: the strategy-setting has been pan movement (and
hasn't had that much input from chapters)
[3:35pm] zackexley: Austin: Of course the chapters and WMF all do
amazing work to raise awareness. But if we were to assign a % of the
credit that we can take, I think it would be very small compared to
our hundreds of thousands of editors
[3:35pm] aude: smithsonian has extensive archives too
[3:35pm] sj|: the setting of targets at the moment makes the most
sense for chapters, in that they each have to do this independently.
[3:36pm] Austin: In 2005 we had our first-ever global conference in
Germany; WMDE was more active than WMF (which isn't surprising, I
guess, since it was founded first), and random Germans on the street
knew about Wikipedia where at the time you'd never get that on the
streets of Los Angeles.
[3:36pm] aude: for the archives, we need help with WikiProject
Fedflix, someone who knows more about video, etc.
[3:36pm] sj|: it would be great to see individuals contributing to
same -- I agree -- but the context would be different
[3:36pm] Austin: Suffice it to say that I'd like to see some data to
back your assertion up.
[3:36pm] henna: maybe compare readership in .be and .nl
[3:36pm] henna: as .be doens't have a chapter
[3:37pm] henna: but they're in the same language (for Flanders) so
editor activity should be the same
[3:37pm] aude: it's tropical outside, so i'm getting going soon to
enjoy sunshine
[3:38pm] Austin: In DC? Amazing.
[3:38pm] aude: yes, it's 73F / 23 C now
[3:38pm] Ottava: 60 up here
[3:38pm] sj|: It would be great if one day soon most of our priorities
and targets were set in a collaborative way by the people running and
planning our ambitious communication, content creation, and recruiting
[3:38pm] Ottava: but Im in "the mountains"
[3:38pm] aude: ah, the mountains
[3:38pm] MC8 is now known as MC8|away.
[3:38pm] Ottava: it is just a plateau
[3:39pm] * aude is sad she can't come to the chapters meeting and help
w/ discussions there
[3:39pm] aude: but hope we do more office hours like this
[3:39pm] sj|: Many of those happen within the broader community. And
some of the larger of these projects are run or supported in part by
chapters or the WMF. All three have a role to play in stewarding and
shaping the movement's work.
[3:39pm] Austin: sj: I think that's the core of the issues, yes.
[3:39pm] Austin: -s
[3:40pm] aude: sj|: agree with involving the broader community
[3:40pm] aude: there is a huge community of editors in the US, but not
organized as such since we are dispersed so widely
[3:41pm] aude: i wonder how to best involved them in talking about
US-based chapters
[3:42pm] ragesoss: yeah, and organizing and bringing together and
creating community bonds among US editors seems (to me) like an area
where there's a lot to be gained from a modest investment.
[3:43pm] RoanKattouw: aude: It's 23 C in *DC* ?!? That's absurd
[3:43pm] del_droid: guys
[3:43pm] RoanKattouw: I thought winter in SF was warm last month but
23 is crazy, reminds me of Argentina
[3:43pm] del_droid: let's have a chat about this all some day
[3:44pm] del_droid: my phone is going to die
[3:44pm] aude: RoanKattouw: yes
[3:44pm] del_droid: so not now
[3:44pm] aude: good to see you here del_droid
[3:44pm] Austin: I agree, we can talk about the weather in DC later.
[3:44pm] del_droid: i've only followed bits
[3:45pm] del_droid: but i have an opinion
[3:45pm] del_droid: that i'm happy to share
[3:45pm] aude: del_droid: would you like to join our mailing list for
[3:45pm] del_droid: i did
[3:45pm] aude: great
[3:45pm] del_droid: just need to accept
[3:45pm] aude: we will discuss chapters after March 22 (wikimania bid deadline)
[3:45pm] del_droid: later tonight
[3:46pm] del_droid: k
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[3:46pm] Austin: aude: I'm reading the archives now
[3:47pm] Austin: Shouldn't take me long, it looks like
[3:47pm] aude: argh... got a template email response from my senator
about doing white house tours for wikimania
[3:47pm] aude: they totally didn't read my email!
[3:47pm] RoanKattouw: At least you have a Senator. People living in DC
proper don't, do they?
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[3:48pm] aude: yes, i just moved
[3:48pm] Austin: Hehe, you can finally vote.
[3:48pm] aude: might have to go visit their office and talk to a human
[3:48pm] Austin: Taxation without representation!
[3:48pm] aude: or try my other senator
[3:48pm] RoanKattouw: Then your Representative
[3:48pm] aude: yes!
[3:48pm] Austin: I would think your representative would be the first step?
[3:49pm] aude: we have time
[3:49pm] * aude will try everything
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[3:49pm] Austin: Then you can write Obama.
[3:49pm] Austin: And if that doesn't work, John Roberts.
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[3:49pm] aude: we do have connections w/ the white house so we might
be able to arrange these to be special tours of some sort
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[3:50pm] Beria joined the chat room.
[3:50pm] aude: and the capitol
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[3:50pm] Guest34739: If people in DC want to complain about a vote, I
say they can have Montgomery County and Prince Georges County and form
their own state.
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[3:53pm] Shirley: Or your congressman.
[3:53pm] Shirley: Write your congressman.